SLAM 130: On Sale Now!
This time we picked the right #23.
by Tzvi Twersky
About eight Fridays ago, an editorial meeting took place at the SLAM Dome. The task at hand: creating a “50 Greatest Players of All-Time” list. Yeah, we’ve done it before, in both SLAM 19 and a special “Top 75” issue that came out in 2003, but a lot has changed since then. A whole generation of ball players—SLAM’s generation of players, really—has played enough seasons and collected enough stats to now be included in the “Top 50” convo. Da Kid, The Answer, Black Mamba—the list goes on. So when the opportunity to remix and remaster our lists of old arose, we just couldn’t resist the temptation.
Creating the concept was pretty easy, agreeing on the 50 was not. One Thursday afternoon, we sat around a conference room table for hours, poring over stats, ratios and all kinds of graphs. But, at the same time, we tried our best not to turn NBA greats into heaps of digits and equations. At day’s end, throats sore from arguing players’ cases, I think we managed to keep our respective perspectives while whittling the list down to 50. Now I don’t think everyone will be happy. Some Hall of Famers were left out, and some players on the list may surprise you (Dennis is my only hint). But at the least, this list is damn well thought out—and no one was omitted by accident. Thanks to Ben, Lang, Susan, Ryne, Khalid, Russ, Konate, Matt and others, the list was finalized, and the result is this cover and accompanying feature included in the issue, which boasts well-written pieces on all 50 players. It should serve as the perfect basketball edutainment, served up at the perfect time: the NBA Finals, when the greats solidify their legacies like Mike did six memorable times.
If you read SLAM (and why would you be here if you didn’t?) then you know that the cover choice was obvious. Mike is to modern basketball what Jack Dorsey is to the Twitter. That is, he created it as it exists today. Michael Jordan is basketball. Period.
Now MJ has been out of the game for a while already—has it been six years, and 11 since his last year as a Bull?!?—but his impact hasn’t lessened. The difference between him and most—who are forgotten by the next TV-timeout—is like the difference between a masterpiece and a solid work of art: One piece, the decent piece, is respected and valued while it “plays,” but its value and peoples’ familiarity with it fades, decreasing incrementally over time. The other work of art, the masterpiece, it has all eyes in the room on it while it “plays,” and shows timeless resiliency afterward, increasing in beauty, value and fame long after the artist is gone. Jordan is that masterpiece—oh, and surprise, surprise, he’s our No. 1. Who filled out the rest of the list? Well you have to read the ish and find out. Folks in the Big Apple, you should see it by Friday. Rest of the country and subscribers, next week. We’re a little early but you all know we like to get the buzz going. Plus, this place will be in serious Finals mode by Thursday so we figured we’d start the MJ hype early.
Between bouts of bickerin’ in the Dome over the “Top 50,” we still managed to find time to give paper nods in this issue to the streets (Booger Smith), the latest news (Jeremy Tyler), the Draft (Jordan Hill) and the NBA Playoffs (Ben Gordon). Between all that and more, Issue 130 should have something for everyone.
This story is filed under: T in the Key, TOC
OH MY GOD.
yes. that means MJ.
i found the last 2 issues.
the dwade tropic thunder, and the debate about kobe and lebron.
i havnt even finished reading them.
if they have this one in today.. im buying it!!
but when it comes down to mj. its not an oppinion anymore.
everyone know’s mj was the best ever. even if he beat your beloved jazz, or knicks.
or anyones favorite teams. he is the best, and thats not an oppinion.. its a fact.
You have a much-deserved Yao Ming cover story, for one.
Two, you’re ranking the greatest players of all time, with AI and Kobe both far enough into their careers to make some headway on these lists.
Great job, SLAM.
Reggie Miller should be in the top 50 greatest players of all time.
Thanks.
(Ben, come on do a Slamanatic a service and dig in that reserve pile you guys surely have at the Dome to find me the only two issues i never got, No. 1 and the original Top 50 issue? I’d pay…triple?)
IVERSON!!!!IVERSON!!!!IVERSON!!!!IVESRON!!!!!
IVERSON!!!!IVERSON!!!!IVERSON!!!!IVESRON!!!!!
IVERSON!!!!IVERSON!!!!IVERSON!!!!IVESRON!!!!!
Think before you type. Please.
The Worm is at #47 - takers?
he single handedly led the sixers to the finals he was one man team
JUKAI’S TOP 50 LIST WRITTEN UP IN TEN MINUTES:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson
4. Larry Bird
5. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
6. Oscar Robertson
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Bill Russel
9. Julias Erving
10. Tim Duncan
11. SHAQ
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Karl Malone
15. Rick Barry
16. John Stockton
17. Isiah Thomas
18. Charles Barkley
19. Kevin Garnett
20. Lebron James (YEAH I WENT THERE)
21. Bob Cousy
22. Clyde Drexler
23. Moses Malone
24. Scottie Pippen
25. George Gervin
26. Elgin Baylor (I know, people’ll think he’s too low…)
27. Allen Iverson
28. Bob Pettit
29. John Havlicek
30. Walt Frazier
31. Kevin McHale
32. Dwayne Wade (YEAH I WENT THERE)
33. David Robinson
34. Jason Kidd
35. Pete Maravich
36. Elvin Hayes
37. Bill Walton
38. Reggie Miller
39. Dominique Wilkins
40. Earl Monroe
41. Patrick Ewing
42. Gary Payton
43. Nate Archibald
44. Willis Reed (I know, people are going to get pissed at this too…)
45. Billy Cunningham
46. Chris Paul (YEAH I WENT THERE)
47. James Worthy
48. Wes Unseld
49. Bob McAdoo
50. Artis Gilmore (Maybe… 50 was the hardest one)
Ben, any criticism on my list? Besides you guys liking Baylor way too much?
Also…
HOW IN THE WORLD IS KG AHEAD OF BAYLOR AND ICE?
Peter: Generally, I just think Duncan did more with less. Shaq has had Kobe and Wade help him get to four rings. Duncan had the Admiral, but pretty much no other legendary player on his squad for his latter two (Manu and Parker are great, and all, but they’re no Kobe and Wade). I also respect Duncan’s work ethic far over Shaq’s: Shaq was an amazing athletic package, Duncan had it all, from athletics to skill to fundamentals. I think Shaq is probably the better player, one on one, but Duncan is far more valuable to a team… his passing, his anchor defense, his leadership, these qualities that Duncan has can help a team go farther than what Shaq can bring. Note, though, that they’re right next to each other, so it’s not that I believe Duncan is SUPERIOR, just slightly better.
As per Garnett, well, I don’t think you realize how GOOD Garnett was in his heyday. This dude was MVP, DPOY, all-first team, all-defense, he’s won acolades like clockwork. I mean, he’s in his 30s, and do you SEE how much worse Boston got when Garnett got hurt? Boston went from title contender to barely-getting-to-the-second round. Garnett is an unbelievable help defender, he’s got awesome go-to-moves and can spread the floor anyway you need him to. For his size, his ball handling his bananas. More to the point, Garnett was the face of a franchise, Scottie Pippen wasn’t. Pippen’s great, all-around amazing player, but Pippen sort of melted carrying the Bulls into the playoffs. Garnett always gave it his all in the playoffs, and even though Pierce played spectacuarly and got Finals MVP, Boston owes it to Garnett for getting past rounds one and two: he downright dominated.
Enough to also know that in Game 7 of the 1970 finals, he dropped 36 points and had 19 assists to lead our team to victory, with a hobbled Willis Reed.
That doesn’t constitute as top 20 to you, AR?
Now, I’m guessign you don’t really know anything about Julius Erving. Dude averaged more blocks, rebounds, just as many assists, and just about as many steals as Kobe. His defense was VASTLY underrated (look at his numbers, two steals and almost two blocks every season) and while his shooting was Lebron-ish at times, his offensive awareness, driving ability and hangtime are pretty much not seen in the NBA, even today. I think where I may have gone wrong is that I do factor in his ABA playing time when I put him on the list (where he once averaged 32 and 12, with two and a half blocks and two steals… don’t gimme no “it’s the ABA” talk, the league wasn’t that inferior to the NBA to discount his amazing performances). Dr. J won multiple ABA championships and MVP awards, and the fact that he was able to go into the NBA and win an MVP and a championship just shows how great the dude was. If I -HAVE- to discount his ABA days though, then yes, Julias would probably drop to around 15 on my list and Kobe would rise above him. So there’s that.
Michael: Didn’t Parish average less than 15 points and 10 assists a game? He never hit 20 points a game, never blocked more than two and a half shots a game… Telling me to look at his stats was probably the opposite direction to go. Most of his points were garbage buckets from the vast attention that Bird and McHale got. Maybe I’m not a Parish fan, and maybe because I watched him at the end of his career, I have a worse impression of that but… It just seems UNREASONABLE for me to think he’d get into the top 50. I’m sure SLAM’ll put him in.
Teddy-the-Bear: Fraizer does seem kinda low at 30, huh? I guess I shoulda raised him to 25-something, there’s argument to be made there: clutch shooter, great leader, one of the BEST defensive point guards of all time. I’d have trouble moving him into the top-20 though, I think that’s overrating his skills. I’ll concede I may have jipped Fraizer out of his proper place on the list.
That’s all I’ll agree with, though. John Stockton would kill Iverson, I don’t even know if that’s a joke or something, but damn. KG is definitely more valuable than Gervin, Gervin was a scorer, a nice weak-side shot blocker, and a good leader. After that, his value sort of trails a bit. Garnett was all that and more. The Baylor part, well, that’s on me, that’s a stance I take that takes a lot of heat. I could (and should) probably move him up, but he was a known ball-hog, a bit harmful to team chemistry, had trouble adjusting to other stars, I mean, you don’t think it’s odd that the Lakers IMMEDIATELY won a championship the moment he retired? Once again though, his placement is on me. His stats and accolades say he should be higher.
Also, I don’t get your “comparing big games” remarks. Dr. J had a lot more “big games” than Kobe, albeit Kobe has a few more “spectacular” games than Dr. J.
I’m also not going to discount Dr. J’s superior rebounding and block and steal numbers because he was a superior athlete to Kobe. If we take away natural physical abilities, Shaq wouldn’t make my top 50 list!
Watch some ABA footage of Dr. J, see if you can find it. It may change your mind.
You can’t make the argument that Stockton won more, because both guys never won rings.
Iverson won an MVP.
Iverson never had Karl Malone.
That’s why Allen Iverson is better, in my opinion.
So there you go.
1) I hate reading lists
2) I hate reading lists Whats the obsession with listing everything these days? top ten this, top 5 that, top 20 blah blah blah.
Just to add 5 or 6 guys from this generation to a ‘new’ top 50. Mental.
IVERSON TOP 20.
Not to mention the 6 assists he’s been averaging per game, EVERY single playoffs.
Of course Iverson has all those scoring records. It’s the only thing he is good at. His legendary scoring is good enough to make it in the top-30 all time, but c’mon… that is his PEAK. I thought about moving him down, and if you had seen him play for the Nuggets or Pistons, you’d think about moving him down too.
Being 5′11 means absolutely NOTHING to me. Great, the skill needed to score like he does around the basket at 5′11 is amazing. If he was 6′5, he’d probably be in my top 20. He’s not, soooo….
Also, Bill Laimbeer deserves to be on the list as much as Parish does. Meaning, he doesn’t. There’s actually about another 30-40 guys I’d put on the list before Laimbeer.
Stockton was a great passer and a great defender, and a great leader. Hall of Fame.
Iverson is a great scorer, good passer (6-7 assists per game his whole career).
Iverson lead his team to the finals, nearly BY HIMSELF, WITHOUT a Karl Malone. You apparently don’t realize how much of a difference having a Karl Malone-type big man makes. Stockton was never the number 1 guy on the Jazz.
In short: How many MVP’s has Stockton won?
2. Prime Shaq
3. Prime Hakeem (94 and 95)
4. Kobe
5. Lebron
6. D Wade
7. Prime Iverson (30 ppg for years being 6′0. Hard to win with him though).
6. Bird (he was past his prime when I saw him)
7. Magic (he was past his prime when I saw him)
8. Karl Malone
9. Tim Duncan
10. Clyde Drexler
11. Dominique Wilkins
12. Prime T Mac (his prime didn’t last long enough)
13. Patrick Ewing
14. Barkley
15. Prime Shawn Kemp
15. Prime Chris Webber (Sacramento days)
16. Prime Penny Hardaway
17. David Robinson
18. Amare’s One Series Wonder (37 ppg, 14 rpg against Tim Duncan in 2005)
19. Reggie Miller
20. Stockton (stats, longevity, feistiness.. Game wasn’t that impressive to watch).
21. Vince Carter (Toronto years)
22. Tim Hardaway (Golden State and Miami years)
23. Dirk Nowitzki (milennium Bird Mane. He just needs to win more and be more clutch).
You’re right. You’re absolutely right.
And the only reason Iverson managed to go to the Finals, score and steal so much, get so may MVP votes and win so many games, not to mention kill so many players one-on-one is because all those feats are achieved by selling shoes.
There are fifty guys who played in Europe who could do all that if only they were magically transported into the 2-guard spot on the 76ers roster in ‘96 instead of AI.
My bad. I’m stupid. You’re totally right.
Iverson had one Finals appearence. Other then that, the dude didn’t have much success in the playoffs in his career. Mostly first round exits, some years not making it at all. Russ once said that Iverson getting to the NBA Finals was the worst thing that could ever happen in Iverson’s career, and I agree: dude never learned to play off the ball, to spot up shoot, to defer to other stars, to defend. Why bother, when you can take control of the ball and just obliterate another team, right? But when Iverson should have been doing that 75-85% of the time, he wind up doing it 90-95% of the time and teams became dependent to Iverson, and that contributed to only being able to win in certain situations. He’s a glorified Steve Nash, if you will. Steve Nash won two MVPs, by the way, so if Iverson is better than Stockton for one, Nash kills them both.
But I digress, let me tell you about John Stockton, the dude who never missed the playoffs in all 19 seasons of his career… the dude who made it to the conference finals seven times, and made it to the NBA Finals twice, both times losing to the Bulls in tough matchups that usually went down to the wire. You think Iverson is a warrior playing through injuries? Stockton missed 22 games -HIS ENTIRE CAREER.- That’s toughness. Especially since Stockton was a VERY physical player, tough man-to-man defense, taking it to the rim to draw contact, and SCREEN setting (which Jerry Sloan said was his most important skillset, something that very few people realized, he would set screens for MALONE). So off the ball, Stockton was a deadly spotup shooter (shooting 40% from the three some years), and a FANTASTIC screener: abilities that Iverson never developed his entire career.
But let’s look at Stockton on the ball. Not only is it INSANE that a point guard is a career 51% shooter (way over the Answer) but, incase you didn’t know, Stockton was the BEST PASSER EVER.
Most assists ever in total, second most per game. He holds five of the top six assist seasons in the NBA, along with the first in total (1,164) and per game (14.5). He has had 34 games of twenty or more assists. Jason Kidd has two, incase yer wondering. Oh, and these acolades were all done IN THE HALF-COURT. While Magic was running and pushing the tempo, Stockton was averaging three more assists walking the ball up the court. Insane.
Oh, he also had a couple of assists over his career (I think somewhere around 3000?)
So, yeah, you can keep thinking Iverson is a better player. But in reality, he’s HALf the player Stockton is. It’s really insane you think this.
stockton over ai is a no brainer, even stock was the dirtiest player ever!
That Philly team wouldn’t have gotten past the first round, maybe even missing the playoffs.
AGAIN: How many MVP’s has John Stockton won?
To answer your question: yes, probably, if you subtract Iverson and add Stockton to the 2000 Phili team, it would not make it past the second round of the playoffs. Then again, subtract Stockton and add Iverson to the Utah Jazz team, and they would have even LESS success. Malone was the go-to guy on offense, but Stockton WAS the number one guy in that he was the vocal leader of the team, he had the ball in his hands when it was crutch time and HE decided when it was time to give the ball up to Malone and for Malone to score.
Adding Iverson on the Utah Jazz would have pretty much ended 19 straight years of playoff appearances. If you think Iverson destroyed the Pistons, good lord, either Malone would have strangled him or Sloan would have shot him.
Iverson is a better scorer and pretty much nothing else.
We agree to disagree, I guess.
I agree with you on that!
1.jordan
2.johnson
3.bird
4.chamberlain
5.russel
6.robertson
7.abdul jabaar
8.olajuwon.
9.erving
10.o”neal or bryant
Primarily because I’d have Wilt standing there with his giant paw calling for it 30 times a game and would want SOMEONE to throw it to him.
Thank You!
POINT GUARD THAN AI
OVERALL-KING JAMES BEATS DUNCAN Defence- King James is getting better every year. he can guard guards or forwards, hell he can even play center. LeBron can block shots, steal the ball, and pick off passes. Duncan is a wild beast down low, he can stuff and pick off passes. he cannot get out of the paint though, guards are to fast.
OVERALL-TIED,BECAUSE LEBRON IS GOOD EVERY WHERE AND DUNCAN IS AMAZING IN THE PAINT. Passing- LeBron averages like 6-7 assists per game he is a dominent force because if his opponents have to stop they have to double or triple team him. that just gives shot for his teammates. Duncan, passing just isn’t his thing.
OVERALL- OBVIOUSLY THE KING Championships, MVPS, etc.- LeBron got an MVP up his sleve and will get a lot more. He is aiming for a championship. Duncan got everything, but will not get another ring, or MVP.
OVERALL-DUNCAN WINS THIS MATCH EASILY. I respect Duncan being ranked high, but he should be about 10 or 11 and King James should be 8 or 9.
He should be 8 or 9 because he is compared to Kobe and some people think he is better than Kobe. there should not be a 30 rank difference between them.
2.Wilt Chamberlain
3.Oscar Robertson
4.Bill Russell
5.Magic Johnson
6.Larry Bird
7.Kareem-Abdul Jabbar
8.Jerry West
9.Shaquille O’Neal
10.Julius Erving
11.Elgin Baylor
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13.Karl Malone
14.Bob Petitt
15.John Havlicek
16.Moses Malone
17.Isiah Thomas
18.John Stockton
19.Charles Barkley
20.Walt Frazier Now their revised top 20 (out of 50) are: 1) Michael Jordan
2) Wilt Chamberlain
3) Bill Russell
4) Shaquille O’Neal
5) Oscar Robertson
6) Magic Johnson
7) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
9) Larry Bird
10) Jerry West
11) Elgin Baylor
12) Kobe Bryant
13) Hakeem Olajuwon
14) Bob Pettit
15) Julius Erving
16) Moses Malone
17) John Havlicek
18) Karl Malone
19) Isiah Thomas
20) Charles Barkley How does Oscar Robertson rank ABOVE Bill Russell five years ago, and now ranks BELOW Bill Russell? Have either of these two played an NBA game within the past five years that would reverse their rankings? Kareem now ranks ABOVE Larry Bird, but 5 years ago, he was BELOW Larry Bird…again, netiher guy has played an NBA game in nearly 20 years. Elgin Baylor is now better than Julius Erving, but that wasn’t the case five years ago…why not? This is why magazines like this are a joke. There are other switches among non-active players as well. I can see if they want to move an active player up or down the list, but why should the relative positions of long-retired players be reversed? I obviously will have no beef with the players that are selected, picking the top 50 or 75 doesn’t require much in the way of brains… but why switch the positions (relative to each other) of long-retired players?
R U KIDDING ME/US!?!?!?!?
today slam #130 arrived at my house, in europe. sure, 1st thing to read was your new TOP50 list, i saved this as long as i got the issue in my own hands. 1st, you put mchale on 26., and left out the chief and dennis johnson? what the F? ok, different perspectives, i can get over it, although both belong in the top 50. but 2 things i couldn’t get over: kareem 20 seasons, the most ever by a player???? what r u smoking? kareem 20seasons, 1560 games, parish 21seasons, 1611games. what is more?
second, barkley has 2 (two) gold medals, 1992/1996! not one as written…
sorry, but i had to say this, AND i want an answer.
loyal reader since SLAM #1
shaq better than magic and bird?
garnett?
iverson?
Ya’ll can’t tell me he didn’t accomplish:
Getting rookie of the year,
Getting rookie of year for the all- star game,
NBA MVP 01′,
2x NBA All-Star Game MVP,
4x NBA Scoring Champion,
too many all-star appearance,
Sold alot of shoes for Reebok must i say
has a life-time contract with them also,
and has sold too many mags for “SLAM” lol dont believe me ask Slam!
He’s definitely better than Jason Kidd and a few others on that list!
GARBAGE LIST
WELL I WOULDT CARE
WADEEEEEEEEEEE
HES THE BEST IN THE LEAGUE OR AMONGST KOB’ LIKE REAL TALK DID YOU FORGET HIS CAREER?
ITS JUST AS GOOD AS LEBRON OR BETTER
HE SHULD BE #1 AND WHEN BOSH COMES DOWN TO MIAMI IF THEY HAVE THE ROOM NEXT SUMMER 3 RINGS
2 MORE FINALS MVP
1 MVP 2 MAX.
1 DPOY (NEXT YEAR) AND THEN HE’S TOP 10 MATERIAL
1 SLAM MAGAZINE
Where is PIPPEN?second only to MJ.
Learn nba history pls and then come and comment..
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