SLAM 130: On Sale Now!

This time we picked the right #23.

by Tzvi Twersky

About eight Fridays ago, an editorial meeting took place at the SLAM Dome. The task at hand: creating a “50 Greatest Players of All-Time” list. Yeah, we’ve done it before, in both SLAM 19 and a special “Top 75” issue that came out in 2003, but a lot has changed since then. A whole generation of ball players—SLAM’s generation of players, really—has played enough seasons and collected enough stats to now be included in the “Top 50” convo. Da Kid, The Answer, Black Mamba—the list goes on. So when the opportunity to remix and remaster our lists of old arose, we just couldn’t resist the temptation.

Creating the concept was pretty easy, agreeing on the 50 was not. One Thursday afternoon, we sat around a conference room table for hours, poring over stats, ratios and all kinds of graphs. But, at the same time, we tried our best not to turn NBA greats into heaps of digits and equations. At day’s end, throats sore from arguing players’ cases, I think we managed to keep our respective perspectives while whittling the list down to 50. Now I don’t think everyone will be happy. Some Hall of Famers were left out, and some players on the list may surprise you (Dennis is my only hint). But at the least, this list is damn well thought out—and no one was omitted by accident. Thanks to Ben, Lang, Susan, Ryne, Khalid, Russ, Konate, Matt and others, the list was finalized, and the result is this cover and accompanying feature included in the issue, which boasts well-written pieces on all 50 players. It should serve as the perfect basketball edutainment, served up at the perfect time: the NBA Finals, when the greats solidify their legacies like Mike did six memorable times.

If you read SLAM (and why would you be here if you didn’t?) then you know that the cover choice was obvious. Mike is to modern basketball what Jack Dorsey is to the Twitter. That is, he created it as it exists today. Michael Jordan is basketball. Period.

Now MJ has been out of the game for a while already—has it been six years, and 11 since his last year as a Bull?!?—but his impact hasn’t lessened. The difference between him and most—who are forgotten by the next TV-timeout—is like the difference between a masterpiece and a solid work of art: One piece, the decent piece, is respected and valued while it “plays,” but its value and peoples’ familiarity with it fades, decreasing incrementally over time. The other work of art, the masterpiece, it has all eyes in the room on it while it “plays,” and shows timeless resiliency afterward, increasing in beauty, value and fame long after the artist is gone. Jordan is that masterpiece—oh, and surprise, surprise, he’s our No. 1. Who filled out the rest of the list? Well you have to read the ish and find out. Folks in the Big Apple, you should see it by Friday. Rest of the country and subscribers, next week. We’re a little early but you all know we like to get the buzz going. Plus, this place will be in serious Finals mode by Thursday so we figured we’d start the MJ hype early.

Between bouts of bickerin’ in the Dome over the “Top 50,” we still managed to find time to give paper nods in this issue to the streets (Booger Smith), the latest news (Jeremy Tyler), the Draft (Jordan Hill) and the NBA Playoffs (Ben Gordon). Between all that and more, Issue 130 should have something for everyone.

SLAM 130

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Tags: Feature Too, Features, Michael Jordan, SLAM #130

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http://www.twitter.com/mansonovic Mansonovic

If I was a betting man, I’d have Duncan at 8, Shaq at 9, Kobe at 10, and LeBron somewhere in the higher teens, probably around 17-20. Not saying I agree with that, but I’d hazard a guess.
http://sdklf.com Jukai

OMFG HOW COULD YOU PUT GILBERT ARENAS ABOVE IVERSON?!?!?!
http://sdklf.com Jukai

Now I want to know, will Chris Paul/Lebron James/Dwayne Wade/Dwight Howard be on that list? You know, players who you could arguably say are all-time greats but haven’t built a career high enough where at least SOME speculation is necessary to place them?
Michael

@Jukai, i think these players suffer from timing. In 10 years time when their careers are done and another one of these lists is done you will see the list start to skew away from older guys and more recent guys will go in.
Michael

@mansovic, top 20 is pretty high for lebron right now, surely? that is pretty lofty company, the only current guys who are top 20 all time are duncan, shaq, kobe
http://sdklf.com Jukai

Michael: thanks, but I’m sure we’ll see Shaq, and Duncan and Kobe and Iverson on the list.
Michael

yes agree we will (though i disagree about iverson), my point was those guys have got enough sample size for want of a better word and have racked up the rings, mvp’s etc to justify putting them in. If you stopped all their careers now, have any of those guys done enough, maybe wade and lebron i guess. Having said that, I am sure Bill Walton will make the list and he had a relatively few good years without injury.
http://sdklf.com Jukai

Okay, I know since I’ll be in and out of the office all day, and wont be able to respond, I’ll probably regret this since I wont be able to respond, but….
JUKAI’S TOP 50 LIST WRITTEN UP IN TEN MINUTES:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson
4. Larry Bird
5. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
6. Oscar Robertson
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Bill Russel
9. Julias Erving
10. Tim Duncan
11. SHAQ
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Karl Malone
15. Rick Barry
16. John Stockton
17. Isiah Thomas
18. Charles Barkley
19. Kevin Garnett
20. Lebron James (YEAH I WENT THERE)
21. Bob Cousy
22. Clyde Drexler
23. Moses Malone
24. Scottie Pippen
25. George Gervin
26. Elgin Baylor (I know, people’ll think he’s too low…)
27. Allen Iverson
28. Bob Pettit
29. John Havlicek
30. Walt Frazier
31. Kevin McHale
32. Dwayne Wade (YEAH I WENT THERE)
33. David Robinson
34. Jason Kidd
35. Pete Maravich
36. Elvin Hayes
37. Bill Walton
38. Reggie Miller
39. Dominique Wilkins
40. Earl Monroe
41. Patrick Ewing
42. Gary Payton
43. Nate Archibald
44. Willis Reed (I know, people are going to get pissed at this too…)
45. Billy Cunningham
46. Chris Paul (YEAH I WENT THERE)
47. James Worthy
48. Wes Unseld
49. Bob McAdoo
50. Artis Gilmore (Maybe… 50 was the hardest one)
ABIMATOR

If Jordan is #1 then Mbah A Moute should be #2
Michael

good list Jukai, but no room for Robert Parish??
http://slamonline.com Ben Osborne

I’d like to give people a chance to read the magazine first, esp because it’s not just a list but some really good writing about each of the 50, but we will post it on the site at some point before we put out our Champs issue. We’ll also run the explanation of how we chose…
http://slamonline.com Ben Osborne

It’ll look better in the mag no matter what though, cause we got some classic images as well, most of which coincide with the prime of the player’s career (which is about what I’d call 91-92 for Mike…hence the image we chose).
http://sdklf.com Jukai

Michael: Sorry, Parish was great but I don’t think he makes top 50…
Ben, any criticism on my list? Besides you guys liking Baylor way too much?
Peter

Jukai,why duncan ahead of shaq, I know he has one more mvp but….
http://www.mybleedingfingertips.blogspot.com/ Myles Brown

Lists Are Bourgeois.
http://www.twitter.com/mansonovic Mansonovic

Peter, if I was guessing, I’d say it’s because Wilt, Dream, Russell and Kareem are all better centers than Shaq, whereas Tim Duncan is the best power forward the game has ever seen. Yes, better than Karl Malone.
Washtub

Jukai, what exactly has Kevin Garnett done to warrant a place in the top 20, let alone in front of scottie pippen, let alone on this list?
http://www2.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/ NICK KALATHES

@Jukai….:i was going to ask you how can you have Hakeem over Russell (i agree if the concept is to have the players play today and forget any kind of legendary status they have since Russell is propably the most legendary player of all time with the possible exception of Mike. Hakeem is bigger equally athletic not much worse defender and a WAY more complete offensive player) and at the same time have Erving over Kobe (since we don’t take in consideration the legendary status of guys- like the Russell example demonstrated- Kobe has the same size,almost equally athletic, better passer,WAY better shooter WAY better dribbler and basically a clearly more complete player than Erving although he will never attain his character.He also has 3 rings as the second best player of a team just like Erving has only 1 as Moses second banana) but then i see some completely crazy things so i understand this “WRITTEN UP IN 10 MINUTES” explains everything……(seeing A.I. in any top-100 list is enough for me to stop examining it seriously)
Peter

Mansonovic, that is probably true, but I don’t think that is a good reason to put him in front of shaq. Duncan was supposed to be a centre but there was no way they were going to move Robinson to the PF position or have him coming off the bench. Shaq won 3 championships and 3 final mvp’s in a row after all.
Michael

Jukai, you dont think Parish makes the top 50, but dominique, reggie miller, chris paul and wade do? Jeez man check this guys career stats out. I dont particularly hold a canlde for Parish but that seems like a glaring omission
Peter

Nick Kalathes, I agree that Iverson is over rated, but don’t think leaving him out of the top 100 list is a bit harsh. How many 6 foot or under players have been MVP and led their team to the finals, as well as led the league in steals and points.
http://www2.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/ NICK KALATHES

@Peter….:i have answered this a million times….
AR

MJ better employ some more security….
truthteller

If Kobe wins a ring this year he cracks the top 10! Easy!
Stan

Everyone has their own top 50. I don’t think Bird is better than Kobe, nor better than Lebron. He was a skilled shooter with great team mates and that’s about it. I’d take the Admiral over KG anytime.
Teddy-the-Bear

@ Jukai: Your list is wack. How is Clyde Frazier not top 20? LOL
Teddy-the-Bear

Allen Iverson > John Stockton.
Also…
HOW IN THE WORLD IS KG AHEAD OF BAYLOR AND ICE?
Teddy-the-Bear

Ah, I like lists. Good discusssions.
AR

Teddy-The-Bear:How many times,in total,have you seen Clyde Frazier play?
http://sdklf.com Jukai

I love this stuff, free-flowing debate!
Peter: Generally, I just think Duncan did more with less. Shaq has had Kobe and Wade help him get to four rings. Duncan had the Admiral, but pretty much no other legendary player on his squad for his latter two (Manu and Parker are great, and all, but they’re no Kobe and Wade). I also respect Duncan’s work ethic far over Shaq’s: Shaq was an amazing athletic package, Duncan had it all, from athletics to skill to fundamentals. I think Shaq is probably the better player, one on one, but Duncan is far more valuable to a team… his passing, his anchor defense, his leadership, these qualities that Duncan has can help a team go farther than what Shaq can bring. Note, though, that they’re right next to each other, so it’s not that I believe Duncan is SUPERIOR, just slightly better.
As per Garnett, well, I don’t think you realize how GOOD Garnett was in his heyday. This dude was MVP, DPOY, all-first team, all-defense, he’s won acolades like clockwork. I mean, he’s in his 30s, and do you SEE how much worse Boston got when Garnett got hurt? Boston went from title contender to barely-getting-to-the-second round. Garnett is an unbelievable help defender, he’s got awesome go-to-moves and can spread the floor anyway you need him to. For his size, his ball handling his bananas. More to the point, Garnett was the face of a franchise, Scottie Pippen wasn’t. Pippen’s great, all-around amazing player, but Pippen sort of melted carrying the Bulls into the playoffs. Garnett always gave it his all in the playoffs, and even though Pierce played spectacuarly and got Finals MVP, Boston owes it to Garnett for getting past rounds one and two: he downright dominated.
Teddy-the-Bear

Enough to know that he brought 2 championships to my Knicks squad… Both against the monstrous JERRY WEST/WILT CHAMBERLAIN-led LA Lakers.
Enough to also know that in Game 7 of the 1970 finals, he dropped 36 points and had 19 assists to lead our team to victory, with a hobbled Willis Reed.
That doesn’t constitute as top 20 to you, AR?
Teddy-the-Bear

Also, Clyde > Scottie.
http://sdklf.com Jukai

Nick Kalathes: When I think of overall best players, I try and use every standard one can to gauage a player (how well he did one on one, how valuable he was to his team, how many awards/championships has he won, how could he fair going up against other competition, how competition was at the time, etc.) and I really think Hakeem was just THAT good. I mean, dude holds records in blocks, steals, points, rebounds, he was PERFECT, NO FLAWS! Russel was a great leader and an amazing defender, he was pretty effective scoring off the fastbreak, and he could pretty much outleap most people in TODAY’S game (I believe he was the seventh best high jumper in the world when he played in college) but I always am shaky with how much I give Russel credit for his 11 championship rings. If you look at HOW MANY Hall of Famers Russel played with, as well as how many series they squeeked away in game sevens by less than five points, well, maybe you’d come to the same conclusion as me: that the 11 championships weren’t ALL because of Russel. Once again though, Russel is only one ahead of Hakeem, so I don’t think Hakeem is THAT much more deserving of his spot, I just think that his abilities, and what he did against others, outweighs Russel’s dominance.
Now, I’m guessign you don’t really know anything about Julius Erving. Dude averaged more blocks, rebounds, just as many assists, and just about as many steals as Kobe. His defense was VASTLY underrated (look at his numbers, two steals and almost two blocks every season) and while his shooting was Lebron-ish at times, his offensive awareness, driving ability and hangtime are pretty much not seen in the NBA, even today. I think where I may have gone wrong is that I do factor in his ABA playing time when I put him on the list (where he once averaged 32 and 12, with two and a half blocks and two steals… don’t gimme no “it’s the ABA” talk, the league wasn’t that inferior to the NBA to discount his amazing performances). Dr. J won multiple ABA championships and MVP awards, and the fact that he was able to go into the NBA and win an MVP and a championship just shows how great the dude was. If I -HAVE- to discount his ABA days though, then yes, Julias would probably drop to around 15 on my list and Kobe would rise above him. So there’s that.
Michael: Didn’t Parish average less than 15 points and 10 assists a game? He never hit 20 points a game, never blocked more than two and a half shots a game… Telling me to look at his stats was probably the opposite direction to go. Most of his points were garbage buckets from the vast attention that Bird and McHale got. Maybe I’m not a Parish fan, and maybe because I watched him at the end of his career, I have a worse impression of that but… It just seems UNREASONABLE for me to think he’d get into the top 50. I’m sure SLAM’ll put him in.
http://sdklf.com Jukai

Stan: I know everyone has their opinion and all, but your opinion of Bird is downright WACK… Watch old clips of Bird, playoff or regular season clips, you’ll… man, I can’t even start. It would take too much time. Bird is more than a shooter, that’s all I can say.
Teddy-the-Bear: Fraizer does seem kinda low at 30, huh? I guess I shoulda raised him to 25-something, there’s argument to be made there: clutch shooter, great leader, one of the BEST defensive point guards of all time. I’d have trouble moving him into the top-20 though, I think that’s overrating his skills. I’ll concede I may have jipped Fraizer out of his proper place on the list.
That’s all I’ll agree with, though. John Stockton would kill Iverson, I don’t even know if that’s a joke or something, but damn. KG is definitely more valuable than Gervin, Gervin was a scorer, a nice weak-side shot blocker, and a good leader. After that, his value sort of trails a bit. Garnett was all that and more. The Baylor part, well, that’s on me, that’s a stance I take that takes a lot of heat. I could (and should) probably move him up, but he was a known ball-hog, a bit harmful to team chemistry, had trouble adjusting to other stars, I mean, you don’t think it’s odd that the Lakers IMMEDIATELY won a championship the moment he retired? Once again though, his placement is on me. His stats and accolades say he should be higher.
AR

So,to answer my question:you looked at the stats.
http://www2.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/ NICK KALATHES

if somebody is new to this forum and wants an “one-line summary” of who Teddy-the-bear is ,well…just read his 1:39pm comment….seriously moments like this is one of the main reasons i follow the comments here. I mean, everyone can write “J.R.Smith>M.J, or Bynum> Wilt” but with our precious Teddy you know that he(or she) actually means it…..once again, THANKS TEDDY!!!!
http://sdklf.com Jukai

Damn, for once I’m gonna co-sign the dude above me. Teddy’s out of his mind for that one.
AR

Cotton Fitzsimmons>Artis Gilmore.
http://www2.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/ NICK KALATHES

@Jukai….:i have seen very few games (less than 10)of Dr.J but all of these were big time games with his numbers exactly the way you describe them. I’ll tell you this : the guy was a freak of nature for his time,he had the physical tools of todays top guys(Kobe, Scottie but not Lebron’s) which mainly gave him all those good numbers in rebounds and blocks….at the same time i could not believe (i was really dissapointed) how the guy had trouble dribbling the ball, while his shooting was for todays standards (sad to write this) T-E-R-R-I-B-L-E. Go and check some games of his and tell me if you can honestly compare them to Kobe’s big ones…
http://sdklf.com Jukai

Nick: First off, my dad had TONS of tapes of Dr. J, so trust me, I’ve seen the dude play. I’ve seen entire games of it. I’m not sure why people say his ball handling was so bad, it’s not like he diced through the offense on in the half-court but it certainly didn’t slow him down. And yeah, his shot was pretty bad, but we’re not taking Kevin Johnson-level bad here, we’re just talking if he didn’t have the open shot, he was better off just not taking it. I think TERRRRRIBLE is overplaying it (I mean, Dr. J did shoot around 32% from the three-point line. That’s not GOOD shooting, but it’s not attrocious).
Also, I don’t get your “comparing big games” remarks. Dr. J had a lot more “big games” than Kobe, albeit Kobe has a few more “spectacular” games than Dr. J.
I’m also not going to discount Dr. J’s superior rebounding and block and steal numbers because he was a superior athlete to Kobe. If we take away natural physical abilities, Shaq wouldn’t make my top 50 list!
Watch some ABA footage of Dr. J, see if you can find it. It may change your mind.
Teddy-the-Bear

Fair enough, Jukai… What’s the deal with this weird Nick guy?
Franko

MANU is TOP 50.
http://www2.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/ NICK KALATHES

@Franko….:he is,but better not to say that kind of things here…..
Stan

I’ve seen lots of games and videos of Bird, he is actually my favorite player growing up, but looking at his game and Kobe’s, I think Kobe is superior to him, and Kobe is not even my favorite player now. Maybe we should divide this by top 10 for every position. Stocton is the number one all-time in assist and steals so why is Iverson better???
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Teddy-th-Bear

Nick is hilarious.
Teddy-the-Bear

Anyways, Iverson IS better than Stockton. John was great, but seriously: Iverson is third all time in career points per game, trailing only Michael and Wilt. Iverson is second ALL TIME in career PLAYOFF points per game, only to Michael Jordan.
You can’t make the argument that Stockton won more, because both guys never won rings.
Iverson won an MVP.
Iverson never had Karl Malone.
That’s why Allen Iverson is better, in my opinion.
So there you go.
Teddy-the-Bear

Don’t forget Iverson is what, 5’11?
Teddy-the-Bear

People LOVE to h@te and underrate Allen Iverson.

SLAM 130: On Sale Now!

This time we picked the right #23.

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