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Thursday, March 12th, 2009 at 9:00 am  |  319 responses

The Post Up: Hawks Halt Jazz

And Kobe takes over late.

by Holly MacKenzie

Andddd, I’m wishing it was Friday. The earliest I’ve gone to sleep this week was just before 5 a.m. Yikes.  I was thinking about being in university and pulling all-nighters and have been wondering why I’ve been getting tired and then it hit me. All-nighters happen every few weeks, or during exam periods. Not every night, consecutively for the better part of six months. Still, I wouldn’t have it any other way. Just, be patient with me if I call people the wrong name, like, say, Troy Murphy being called Mike Dunleavy. Yup, did that yesterday. I think it happened because I was watching the Clips/Cavs and was wishing I could be inside Coach Dunleavy’s head as Zach shot that three.

Antonio McDyess with 21 points… and a career-high 22 rebounds. We are in a time-warp. That’s crazy.

Damn Rockets and Lakers were running up and down the court so fast I was having a hard time keeping up. The Lakers ended up taking the game 102-96.

@jeskeets summed it up perfectly on Twitter when he said, “Artest and Kobe talkin’ trash is the perfect example of why I’d pay $59.99/month extra for ‘Mic’d Up NBA League Pass’.”

In the fourth quarter of the LA/Houston game, with the Lakers up two, Kobe took exception to Artest guarding him tightly and threw a little shove. Crazy move against a guy like Artest. Ron got into his face and everyone quickly separated things with memories from the Palace flooding my mind. Ron was great, and the hero was Kyle Lowry who got into Ron’s face and reminded him that they needed him on the floor. He and Kobe were both given double-technicals and from that point, one player soared and the other faltered.

Can you guess who soared?

Kobe finished with 37 points and 6 assists as he led the Lakers in the fourth and hit some daggers late to close out the game. Ron had a tough night, but his Rockets played a great game, especially with Yao being strangely quiet in the second half after starting out strong. It was fun watching Scola/Yao/Pau go at it and Josh Powell was solid for LA. In the start he had 17 points and 9 rebounds. Yao finished with 16 points as Scola added 15 and 9. Aaron Brooks is a tough guy out there on the floor. He had a ridiculous three as he was fouled by Derek Fisher to keep the Rockets in the game and then hit the free-throw to complete the three point play. Brooks finished with 14 points on the night. Von Wafer stuck it to the Lakers, his former team, and dropped in 20 points, including four big ones down the stretch.

The frustrating thing about this game for the Rockets is, they had it. They were up by 11 at the half, and then threw it away in the third when the Lakers went on a 20-6 run to close the third quarter. The fourth one was as good as any that I’ve seen this season. Back and forth, but the Lakers just had that little extra, that comes when you’ve got Kobe on your squad.

Big win for the Lakers without LO. Big game from the Rockets as they proved to me they could take some of the other teams in the West if they get the right situation in the playoffs.

And, if we’re keeping track the Rockets announcers have Kobe as their MVP. I’m just saying. This race is getting better by the day.

This may be the best NBA article I’ve read all year. Please, please, please check it out. It’s also by one of the best NBA journalists in the business. Jackie MacMullan is just so much better than almost everyone else when it comes to writing about basketball. So many good pieces in this article. Just read it.

Syrcuse won last night against Seton Hall, and Jonny Flynn had himself a great game with 19 points and 11 assists. He is my NCAA guy, now that we are getting oh-so-close to the madness, who is yours? Not the best player, or who you think will be the best when they make it to the L, just the guy you root for more than any other? Which player fires you up and gives you something new to appreciate each time you watch them play?

I’ve still got Flynn’s steal, bucket and free throw from the game against Marquette on my mind.

Can we please start a petition asking Doc Rivers to play Leon Powe more, even when KG and Davis return? He had 23 and 13 last night and he produces every time he’s in the game. I’ve been singing this song for awhile now. Let it be, Doc. It’s time.

Chris Paul had 30 points, 10 rebounds and 13 assists in a 109-98 win over the Wizards last night. Jones said it yesterday, and it’s true. LeBron had a triple-double Tuesday night and it wasn’t really fawned over yesterday. He really is that good. Crazy.

Laker fans, NBA fans and those who enjoy listening to Phil Jackson: Check this article from Dave McMenamin over at NBA.com. Some nice anecdotes from Phil, including a few I’d never heard him say before. Phil’s the best.

One more link for today, although this one will grab your heart. Scott Fowler speaks with Rodney Rogers about the accident that has left him paralyzed from the shoulders down. The part that got my eyes misty,” He wants you to know his story. He wants you to understand that he has not lost his faith. Or his hope.” A beautiful soul inside that man, to go along with a resolve and a strength that is unbreakable. Thoughts and prayers continue to go out to Rogers, his fiancee and family.

Toronto lost 115-106 in Philly and there isn’t really a story to report there, other than they gave up 67 points over the final two quarters. Yuck. Thaddeus Young had himself a big night with 29 points as Samuel Dalembert had 19 points and 13 boards. Andrea Bargnani had 20 points for the Raptors and Pops Mensah-Bonsu continued to impress on the glass as he led the team with 8 boards in 17 minutes of action.

Orlando killed Chicago, 107-79 as the Bulls shot only 31% for the night. Tony Battie had 18 points and 8 rebounds to lead the Magic as the starters sat for most of the second half and Dwight Howard had 15 points and 9 boards. Courtney Lee added 14 points. John Salmons had 18 points for the Bulls as Derrick Rose and Ben Gordon combined to shoot only 3-22 from the floor.

Denver took down OKC 112-99 and it was Renaldo Balkman who helped the Nuggets stay in front to end a three-game losing streak. Balkman was given the start and finished with 14 points and 14 rebounds to compliment 22 points from Carmelo Anthony and 17 points and 9 assists from Chauncey Billups. The Thunder were led by Jeff Green’s 19 points, Earl Watson’s 18 off of the bench and 13 from Russell Westbrook.

Golden State grabbed the 116-112 victory over the Nets last night, surviving a late push from the Nets as Vince Carter hit a three-pointer to bring the Nets within two, 112-110 with 16 seconds remaining. After free throws from Jamal Crawford, Devin Harris missed a three and then Crawford sealed the game with more free throws in a game that saw Monta Ellis make his return to the floor. Ellis and Crawford each had 19 points as Stephen Jackson led the way with 29 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists. Harris led NJ with 31 points 9 assists and 7 rebounds while Vince Carter and Brook Lopez each added 14 points apiece in the loss.

Miami 107 Boston 99

You can tell from his face that Dwyane Wade lives for hitting the game clinching shot. After doing just that in dramatic fashion on Monday night, Wade was able to deliver the final blow to the Celtics last night as his three-pointer with 34 seconds remaining nailed the coffin on Boston to give them their second straight loss. After leading by five at the break, the shorthanded Celtics were helpless against Miami, getting outscored 32-18 in the third. A 16-2 run by the Celtics got them back into the game down the stretch, but Wade refused to allow them the victory as he scored eight points in the final four minutes of the game, including five straight to keep his guys in front.Wade finished with 32 points and 7 assists as Jamario Moon scored 13 to go with 8 rebounds and Jermaine O’Neal added 12. The Celtics were led by Ray Allen with 27 points as Leon Powe had 23 points and 13 rebounds and Paul Pierce added 16 in the loss. The Celtics are now two games behind the Cavs in the race for homecourt.

New York 116 Detroit 111 OT

During my liveblog I couldn’t really watch other games, but thanks to Russ, I did flip to the end of regulation for the Knicks and Pistons and saw Larry Hughes get fouled while attempting a three-pointer. Hughes made all of the free throws to tie the game with 10 seconds remaining and the Pistons screwed themselves out of a final play by losing the ball out of bounds. The Knicks couldn’t convert either and they went into overtime where things stayed close until midway through where the Knicks started to pull away. A huge long two from QRich (that he thought was a three), sealed the game for the Knicks. Nate Robinson scored 30 off of the bench. David Lee had 16 points and 18 rebounds and Hughes added 22. Antonio McDyess had a huge game for the Pistons, with 21 points and 22 rebounds. The rebounds were a career-high. Rip Hamilton scored 27 points to go with 9 rebounds and 5 assists, but he also had 8 turnovers. Rodney Stuckey had 23 points to go with 8 rebounds and 8 assists and TayShaun Prince added 25 points and 10 rebounds.

Dallas 93 Portland 89

The Mavs found themselves in a close one against the Blazers one night after their big win against the Suns. While they outscored Portland 30-19 in the second quarter to take a lead going into the second half, Portland fought back and cut the lead to only two points early in the fourth. With an ailing Brandon Roy there wasn’t a shortage of Blazers to step up, but just when it appeared they may be able to take over the game, as Travis Outlaw used his length to steal the ball from Jason Kidd, rather than scoring as they trailed by two with less than a minute to go, they turned the ball over. On the following possession, Dirk Nowitzki rose and drained a jumper to put the Mavs up four with 17 seconds remaining. After another miss from Portland, the Mavs went up six thanks to two free throws from Brandon Bass, and even a three from Travis Outlaw to cut the lead down to three wasn’t enough for the Blazers. Dirk finished with 29 points and 10 boards, Jason Terry added 24 off of the bench, Erick Dampier added 12 points and 9 rebounds and Jason Kidd added 7 points, 10 rebounds and 10 assists. LaMarcus Aldridge led the Blazers with 23 points and 15 rebounds, Brandon Roy scored 22 points, Joel Przybila added 9 point and 15 boards and Travis Outlaw added 20 off of the bench.

Atlanta 100 Utah 93

The Utah Jazz knew that eventually their winning streak would come to an end, they just weren’t ready for it to be last night. Falling to the Hawks, 100-93, the Jazz trailed 55-42 at the half, but were able to make a run in the third to take a two-point 75-73 lead into the final quarter. This is where the magic would end for Utah as they were outscored 27-18 in the fourth and were unable to score from the floor for the final five minutes of the game. While a shot from Mehmet Okur put the Jazz up 89-87 with 5:01 remaining, the Jazz wouldn’t hit another field goal as Joe Johnson scored on a short jumper to the Hawks the lead for good. Johnson finished with 31 points and 9 assists for the Hawks as Josh Smith scored 22 points to go with 12 rebounds and Al Horford added 13 points and 12 rebounds. Deron Williams had 20 points and 9 assists for the Jazz in the loss as Okur finished with 14 points and 10 rebounds and Paul Millsap added 16 off of the bench.


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  • Myung

    Who knew that Philips Arena was where long win streaks die (Cleveland, New Orleans, Utah)? The Hawks are starting to look good again (and this, without Marvin … and Mike Bibby’s been pretty bad the past month). Good to see Joe Johnson finding his stroke these last few games.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    Holly MAAAACK. Great article by Jackie Mack. Love that. Also, love that song you’re singing about Powe. I’m just astounded that Glen Davis sees the FLOOR when you have Leon Powe on the roster. Totally agree with JESKEETS on the league pass business. All around swell post up Holly.

  • Myung

    Your Heat are pesky, eboy. It’s going to be a battle for that 4th seed.

  • Myung

    BTW, I’m now the sponsor for Al Horford’s Basketball Reference web page. Everyone on SLAMonline should try to sponsor someone on Basketball Reference. As most of you probably know by now, it’s just a great hoops web site, and it would provide for some good bragging rights on here (“I’m sponsoring JR Rider’s page!”). In case you’re wondering, you can buy jon Koncak’s page for $15 and Mike Woodson’s for $10. Maybe SLAMonline should take a page out of Basketball Reference’s book and allow readers to sponsor certain pages on this site. I’m thinking Ryan’s, Lang’s, and Holly’s pages would be the most expensive.

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    Hi Holly, Justin, and Myung.

  • Myung

    Good morning, B.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    Myung, probably right. B. Long, you’re my DUDE. Let’s talk about Kobe and be elitist :)

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    Myung, I call dibs on sponsoring JR Riders page by the way. Love that dude haha

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    I never thought I’d say this but I’ve really enjoyed watching the Knicks as of late. Larry Hughes hasn’t looked this good since he was either a Wizard or a Biliken.

  • Myung

    Oh, and btw, eboy and Tad and the rest of you, Shawn Kemp’s page is available for $75.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    Larry Hughes even when scoring 30+ a few days ago…All I could think in my head was this:

    Hmmm…Smart money tells me he took 72 shots in 32 minutes, had a shooting percentage lower than the Bush approval rating…Stole the ball from Q-Rich in the half court offense to launch a 25 footer off one leg falling out of bounds from his off hand…Causing Mike D’antoni’s heart rate to rise to Rush Limbaugh heights…Hmmm, I wonder if there are any players I am more hair-trigger negative about in the history of my life.

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    Mike Singletary deserves some love on here today. 29 straight? Bob Knight just might disown his son for allowing that to happen.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    B. Long, now if I remember right, my boy Mike dropped more points IN A ROW than Texas Tech dropped in THE ENTIRE FIRST HALF. And yes, all caps are annoying, but 29 straight for a back up player who isn’t in the top 3 in scoring on his team setting the BIG12 conference playoff scoring record for a single game (43) deserves some caps lock.

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    @Justin:Larry Hughes just needs a chan…hahahahaa…sorry, I couldn’t finish that statement with a straight face.

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    We need a video of the “My Bit(h” stamp that LaMarcus Aldridge put on Eric Dampier’s forehead last night. Get on it, Ryno.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    The players whom when they have a good game I immediately turn suspicious- 1. Ricky Davis. Do I REALLLLLY need to explain his whole rebound on own basket to try to get a triple double to pat his stats and get some bonus cash? 2. Larry Hughes. Already explained this. And if I haven’t, ask my boy B. Long. 3. Zach Randolph. The most inefficient 20 and 10 I’ve EVER seen in my life. Dude makes a living being a good post man on a sh*tty team. He has the two dumbest, worst, most horribly executed half court plays in the history of NBA basketball. And one of them was less than a few days ago. The other made Isaiah Thomas’ face go from lovable (albeit seethingly stupid in his executive decisions by killing the CBA and ruining the knicks) to murderous.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    I’ve GOT to be able to get Chris Quinn’s page for less than $5.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Antonio McDyess: 21 points, 22 boards, and 1 DROPPED PASS THAT WOULD HAVE WON THE GAME!! Can’t really blame Dice though, since Detroit did have a 10 point lead going into the 4th quarter. UGH.

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    Scott Skiles, Vinny Del Negro, and Russ Bengston are probably better witnesses to the legend that is Larry Hughes than I ever will be.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Oh, and memo to Rip Hamilton:
    “DON’T LEAVE YOUR FEET ON A PERSON ATTEMPTING A 3!!!”

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    Eboy, can you also get his GOBLIN/VENTRILOQUIST-DOLL face sponsored…by Eli Roth? His face can be a torture in Hostel III. You could show 2 hours of his face and call it SAW VI…There would be mass suicides in cineplex’s…

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    What is Congo’s page going for? DACO’S!!!

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    I like that.

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    @Tad:Last night just proved that A.I. is not the problem. What? Rasheed Wallace didn’t play? Carry on.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    memo to TAD- Rip has never been a stickler for defensive fundamentals. I mean really, his yin/yang is definitely defense and offense. Offense- extremely intelligent, has many nuances to the scoring way of basketball. Defense- watch the guy go past him and bask in Ben Wallace, Sheed, and Prince give great backside help.

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    Chris Quinn looks like a kid you’d see on the news being arrested for a school shooting.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    Ladies and Gentlemen, YOUR backup PG of the Miami Heat- Chris Quinn, mistaken for school shooters. Oh god B. Long we are vile today aren’t we :)

  • Fred34

    Since they were the same guys that won the Gold – why not make it a special year and have a 3-way MVP DWade, Bron and KB ? It takes nothing away from any of the 3 who are all having phenomenal seasons AND would make the most fans happy. I really don’t see what keeps the league from doing the right thing.

  • j4zzm4n

    was pleasantly surprised by powell.hope he can keep it up.i wish monkey king could develop faster.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    Fred34. It does. It takes away from the already nonexistent integrity of the award, it tells Wade even when his season is better than Kobe’s that he gets 1/3 of an MVP. Even when LBJ is the best player in the NBA he gets a 1/3 of the MVP and isn’t even the 100% MVP of his CONFERENCE. And if Kobe only gets 1/3 of the MVP it implies that Nash has more right to two FULL MVP awards than Kobe does. That’s crap. That’s why you can’t have a EVERYBODY IS A WINNER award. MVP is MVP. Basketball is about winning. period

  • SWIFTboy

    ‘Kobe finished with 37 points and 6 assists as he led the Lakers in the fourth and hit some daggers late to close out the game’

    I always thought of the dagger metaphor as the finishing blow. Meaning, you can only have ONE dagger. I blame Hubie Brown describing Manu as the source of this trend, though I have no proof.

  • Fred34

    Justin – I hear everything you’re saying. But when the award gets handed out, instead of Dwade feeling and being slighted, why not acknowledge the great work that’s been done. If we go by the media alone, it’s Bron’s hands down regardless. I think Kobe is dope (and one too) but DWade really has the most on his weary shoulders. When he eventually does get overlooked it’ll be rather unfortunate – that’s all.

  • Fred34

    PS. It’s not like you can undo the fact that Nash has 2 so what are you gonna do eh?

  • Fred34

    JW – at the end of the day I guess you summed it up with “nonexistent integrity” anyway.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    Fred34, and what about years when MJ didn’t get the MVP simply because he was MJ? MJ in his heyday was the MVP every year, but there were those years when the voters voted for “anyone but jordan”. All I can say is, if he can go through that and be alright, Wade wont die of suffering if he doesn’t get it, because these 3 among themselves realize the greatness of one another.

  • http://www.myspace.com/hemantsbeats what

    I’ll sponsor Shelden Williams’ page, if it’s free…

  • http://www.myspace.com/hemantsbeats what

    Looks like those benchings got Josh Smith’s head back in the game. He’s been great the last couple of nights.

  • http://iwantoutofokc.com/ James the balla

    @ Holly. You aren’t even a Kobe fan anymore. I am very dissapointed. You are jumping on Bron bandwagons and every other bandwagon out there. :(

  • Fred34

    JW – all good points. So what do you see happening? The MVP goes to media darling Bron, Kobe gets snubbed and DWade overlooked? Since you have a cooler head than me, who would you give it to?

  • http://iwantoutofokc.com/ James the balla

    @ Holly. You aren’t even a Kobe fan anymore. I am very dissapointed. You are jumping on Bron bandwagons and every other bandwagon out there.

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    I don’t understand why everyone keeps talking like Dwyane Wade is not gonna get the MVP because he gets slept on like a pillow top matress. Dude is featured on Sportcenter almost as much as LBJ, is on T.V. commercials just as much, and is getting covers on major magazine publications(this one). Oh yeah, he’s also a Finals MVP and NBA Champ. He doesn’t play for Marquette anymore, people. If you want to make an argument for Timmy, Chauncey, or maybe even Brandon Roy or Joe Johnson not getting enough credit due to media coverage I’d understand but if Dwyane gets home court in the first round and doesn’t get the MVP, it won’t be because he was doing 10 T-moblie commericals instead of 10 All State commericals.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    Fred34, I’m probably the biggest Kobe fan I can think of, but I don’t think this is an MVP year for him. I personally think Wade deserves it, but he wont get it. Eboy and I have spoken about it at length here on the why and the reasonings. LeBron James is going to win the MVP. I can’t in my mind imagine the media, the voters, the league, Sternbot or anybody else allowing the FLAGSHIP POSTERBOY of our league, the KING of our league by media standards, the MOST important player of our league from marketability, the most ballyhooed prospect in basketball history to NOT get the MVP before a player who went to college for more than one year, went to a less than stellar school in Marquette, a player who didn’t go first in the same draft as he…The list goes on, but I just don’t see anybody in the SYSTEM allowing that. Call me crazy, but can you picture it?

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Justin- Um, no. You are wrong sir. Rip may not be the best defender, but it isn’t for lack of effort. Players do not blow by Rip because Rip is actually pretty fleet of foot. Rip actually plays good defense in regards to stance, footwork, etc. His problem? He reaches way too much and tries to anticipate players jumpers and gambles for blocks when he should just get a hand in the players face.

  • http://iwantoutofokc.com/ James the balla

    Co-sign B!!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    B. Long, you and I both know LBJ gets way more shine than Wade by a landslide, let’s not get it twisted.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    TAD- reaching too much is bad fundamentals, gambling for blocks and jumping into a player shooting a three is bad fundamentals. And his stance is NOT fundamentally sound, he plays D flat-footed too often. I’ve actually watched him that closely because I have extreme respect for his ability to move without the ball. I watch way too much gamefilm for my own good.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    We will agree to disagree. Yes, it is bad fundamentals to reach too much, but he doesn’t do it all the time. He actually is a pesty defender who isn’t afraid to get up on the person he guarding and force them to make a move. Not exactly sure how that is playing flat footed. Regardless, if anyone other than McDyess could have hit a shot in the 4th quarter, the Pistons win.

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    Justin, no one is on the same level media wise as LBJ but Wade isn’t such a distant second that you can say he’s not in the general public’s eye enough to be forgotten about come voting time. You can’t tell me that Steve Nash won his second MVP because he was so much more marketable than Kobe or Shaq or that Karl Malone won his because he was putting out more commericals than M.J. that year. See my point.

  • http://slamonline.com Holly MacKenzie

    pretty sure I’m still a huge Kobe fan. Just so everyone knows.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    B. Long, I’m not just saying it’s because of coverage

  • Fred34

    JW – so much for the cool head ;-) Ok we know who the media et al will pick, but if it was up to you, who would you give a nod to? PS. “ballyhoo” great word, makes me wanna somehow slip brouhaha in the mix

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    Holly, no kidding :)

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    But Holly, credible source James the balla said you weren’t. Are we too believe that he would mislead us. Not James the balla!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    Fred34, like I said days back, if I had a vote, Wade is the MVP of the league this year. but he wont win.

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    I think your over esitimating the system just a tad bit, Justin. If he keeps doing what he’s doing at this pace for the rest of the year and the Cavs aren’t the top seed in the East, I think he’ll get it. Guess we’ll see.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Dwyane will not be MVP this season. Nor will Kobe or CP3. It will not be as close a race as it should be.

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    The Heat are not getting that 4th seed dammit!

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ BETCATS

    stuff

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Co Co so use to failure.

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    E, have faith homie. Remember how before the season started I said I saw your Heat being in the fourth or fifth spot in the East and you said that if you ever needed to be talked down from jumping off a ledge to call me? This is a similar situation.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    It is cute that such a pro-Lakers and pro-Kobe person is telling a pro-Wade and pro-Heat person that Dwyane has an actual very good shot at MVP and the Heat will get homecourt in the 1st round. Warms my heart, even if it is for show.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    I guess……although I’m sure the Hawks will fu*k it up and the Heat SHOULD be able to finish with 45 wins…..but how weird this season has been….it wouldn’t be shocking to see the Pistons get hot and go on a big win streak and push for it.

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    I’m not worried about this one E. I am confident my guys will hold on to the 4th spot.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ BETCATS

    shawty what you drank i got money in the bank

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Co Co,for your sake….it won’t matter…..’cause you’ll either wind up against the Heat or the Pistons in the first round and it will be over quickly for your birds. I’m pretty confident of that.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ BETCATS

    the Hawks-Heat matchup will lead to hilarious commenting battles between Eboy, Cheryl, Myung, Co-Co, and Lang

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Let’s not underestimate what LeBron is doing for the Cavs. Their 2nd best player would be the 4th or 5th option on the Celts or the Lakers. Cleveland is the best 3-point shooting team in the L because of his ability to drive and kick. You take him out of the Cavs and that team is terrible.

  • http://www.hoopmixtape.com Simon S.Y Lawy

    kobe is the MVP, but David stern the great will still hand the MVP to they so call the great lebroooommmm the media boy, damn, i’m sick of this…

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    Puhlease. If the officials get whistle happy for your boy them yeah the Heat could be a problem but honestly I’m not worried about either of you. Especially since we’ll have homecourt advantage and don’t forget we swept the Pistons already and we are up on your precious lil Heat 2-1. In other words we ain’t scared.

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    Here is my version of the NBA Conspiricy Theory. David Stern likes diversity in his NBA. The more markets that he can keep excited and happy, the better. Take a look back a couple of years. Look at the last year that the Spurs won it. Now David knows that the Lakers are gonna sell tickets regardless with Kobe on the floor, he knows that LeBron has about 15 more seasons of milking before he’s sent off to pasture, and he knows that people are going to still buy tickets and jerseys in Phoenix regardless of a title because they score 187 points a game. But San Antoinio, they HAVE to win titles in order to stay marketable. Hence the Amare and Boris Diaw suspensions in the Western Conf. Finals that year. It’s all a part of the plan.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ BETCATS

    Simon, because Kobe wasnt the media boy pre-colorado…

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    The Post Up (although still a must-read) is slowly but steadyly turning into the LakerLoveDailyNewsletter.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ BETCATS

    i tend to agree with Co-Co @ 11:07

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Co Co talks tough for a team that hasn’t won a playoff series since, wait………..have they ever?

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    B. Long, that HAS to be sarcastic. Right?

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ BETCATS

    Lz, i will keep that from occuring

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Co Co and B Long are pretty ridiculous this morning. Long week?

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    And TAD, RIP plays Reggie Miller-defence, don’t make effort (and your homerism) be mistaken for actual ability. He’s below average for a NBA 2guard, his incredible motor is the only thing keeping him from being awfull.

  • http://www.hoopmixtape.com Simon S.Y Lawy

    If D-Wade should win this year, so should kobe at 05-06, 06-07 or maybe cp3 at 07-08…

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    @Tad:Maybe being such a pro-Kobe guy is the reason I feel like Wade deserves the MVP so badly this year, considering I know what it’s like to watch your favorite player drag a young sub-par team to playoff seedings that they would otherwise have no business being in. I’m not really sure what the “show” comment was about, other than you just being a cranky Pistons fan.

  • http://double-technical.blogspot.com Zee!

    After a minor bump in the road, the Lakers are due for a nice lil win streak of their own. Watch and see.

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    What’s ridiculous Tad? The fact that we swept the Pistons or the fact that we’ve beaten the Heat twice? I’m just stating facts mostly. Right now it is my opinion that the Hawks will keep the 4th seed but even if they don’t i’m still going to be of the opinion that they will beat either the Heat or the Pistons.

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    @Z:If your talking about my 11:08 comment then yes that is sarcasm due to everyone thinking that the MVP race is fixed apparently.

  • Fred34

    B Long – in this case conspiracy is just a marketing term for effectively penetrating new markets and generating growth drivers. Stern is just doin his job – lol

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Because it is for show. Unless, since you haven’t been here for weeks, you actual got some objestivity in your comments. And no cranky in me, sir. I’m quite aware of the Pistons chances this year. Not too worried.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Kobe is nice.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Co Co, you should really know me better.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Co Co is delusional……but she is wildly attractive.

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    I am a bit delusional, I will grant yout that E.

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    Tad,I most certaintly have not added any objestivity to my comments, thank you very much. Just stating my opinion. The Lakers will sweep every team they play in the playoffs. There, does that make you feel better? lmao.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Kyle Lowry threw a post entry pass to Yao at the high post that actually sailed out of bounds!
    A few plays before that, somebody, I think Artest, tried a post entry pass to yao that was easily stolen because: 1. Yao didn’t adequately seal his man on the bounce pass. 2: YOU DON’T THROW BOUNCE PASSES TO PEOPLE WHO ARE 7′6″!
    That is basic basketball. You always try to throw the ball up high to your big man because it’s easier for them follow the flight of the ball, and it’s easier for them seal their man. You only throw it low when there is extreme defensive pressure on the passer that prevents a lob pass, or if it’s a drop off in the lane. Yao may be soft, but his team throws some of the WORST post entry passes in the damn league.

  • http://www.lkz.ch Darksaber

    Dirk Nowitzki. Das ist alles. Eat your hearts out, haters.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    B, i’m just shaking my head at the fact that you seem to be completely discounting Bron as the MVP. We know Kobe isn’t winning. Yes, Wade certainly is making a case but lets not kid ourselves. As much as he would be a deserving winner, Bron is in the drivers seat and doesn’t appear to be conceding anything.

  • The Seed

    I feel Dwade should not get it, because 05-06 Kobe and 06-07 Kobe got overlooked. Nash has Kobe’s and Shaq’s MVP, then you have people on slam writing articles saying Nash is a Hall of Famer with really 4 good years and two MVPs. Didn’t Dallas make the Finals with Nash, but made the FINALS as soon as Nash left and should have won. REFS. Kobe should get it this year if his team ends up with the best record in the league with Bynum hurt. Didn’t Nash get one, because Amare was hurt that year.

  • http://www.lkz.ch Darksaber

    B long. The shooter “joke” earlier? Inappropriate. Two shooting sprees in 24 hours is no joking affair imo.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Why are people penalizing Wade for the stupidity for the media?
    The media was unfair to Kobe, so they should be unfair to Wade?
    That’s some horrible logic right there.

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    I said if the Cavs don’t get the top spot in the East and the Heat do get home court in the 1st round It’s going to Wade. If LeBron James carries the Cavs to the top, he’s right there too. I never one time said he wasn’t.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Finish 4th and finishing 8th are pretty significant in their difference.

  • http://slamonline.com Holly MacKenzie

    Lz, sorry for the Laker-heavy coverage today. I liveblog games for The Score, and generally I get the Lakers/Rockets/Cavs games. On nights that I blog, I don’t get to watch too much of the other games, hence the heavy coverage of those games.

    Also, can you blame a girl for talking about her team when the opportunity arises? Particularly when they are the best team in the L? haha

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ BETCATS

    Allenp, i am not sure what you mean by penalizing. Can you explain?

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    B, I could care less whether the Cavs finish in the top spot or not. If Bron keeps up his pace and doesn’t get injured, he is winning it. No question. I’m not saying I agree, i’m just saying how it will be.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Holly; no worries, as I said still an absolute must-read. And don’t blame you for loving on your squad, but still gets kind of redundant in the long run. The best team in the L.. hmm.. as far as I’m concerned that’s Boston untill sombody knocks them out in the playoffs.
    PS: Saw you pic over on the Score, and dare I say: Cute.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Allenp, not giving the MVP to Wade would NOT be unfair. Kobe got shafted but it was an entirely different situation. Nash didn’t deserve the 2nd one. Can you honestly say that Bron doesn’t deserve it this year? Wade is balling out of control but James has been carrying Cleveland night in night out for the whole season. EVERYTHING that happens for the Cavs is directly related to James.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    EVERYTHING that happens for the Heat is directly related to Wade. Just saying. And that sentence does NOT apply to Kobe today.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    I’m cool with saying that D-Wade has to be in the running for MVP but it won’t be an outrage if he doesn’t get it.

  • http://www.lkz.ch Darksaber

    i think Allenp meant to say “penilised”.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    And again….Dwyane will not win the MVP.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    LeBron should be MVP, with Wade a close second.

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    The media chose LeBron before the season started. He’s winning it and for the last time. The Heat aren’t getting the 4th seed so if that’s what yall are basing Wade’s MVP candidacy on then……. Seriously he is making a claim at being the best in the league right now, but the award really is LeBron’s to lose. Wade will be a semi close second probably.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    If you say Wade can’t be MVP because Kobe didn’t win when he was killing, then you’re penalizing him because the media is full of idiots. That’s what I meant.
    But, I can’t just blame the media. Most people in the general public thought Nash, and even Dirk, were worthy of being MVP. It hasn’t been until now that the backlash has truly kicked up.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    The team that’ll get the 1st seed in the East will play either Milwaukee, Chi, NJ, Charlotte, NY or Indy (they’re that close). The team that finishes second will prolly face Philly or Detroit. I’d be worried about facing Detroit in the first round if I were the Cavs or the Celts. I mean, they’re having a sh!tty season but they could still bring it in a 7-game series. The talent is still there.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Co Co…..just to be clear……are the Hawks 12 games ahead in the race for 4….or are you just being a simpleton for simpleton’s sake? You act like it’s as impossible as Kobe not looking like a brown weasel.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Or a ferret.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    I’m not saying Wade is the MVP and nobody else should be considered.
    I just reject the logic that Wade can’t be considered because Kobe couldn’t get a sniff when he had the Lakers competing.
    And Eboy, I know Kobe was 7th and 8th in the conferene those years but that was in a stacked Western Conference and his teammates were clearly inferior to Wade’s, top to bottom.
    Finally, I actually want the media to vote for Wade. That will expose their bias towards Nash and against Kobe even more in my opinion. Everybody can see that used a totally different standard to evaluate Kobe than they have used for everybody else.

  • Myung

    I agree with Co Co. I think we will get the 4th seed, and even if we don’t, we have played well against the Heat and Pistons this season and have a great chance of beating both of those teams if we meet in the Playoffs. Co Co, you sounded very pessimistic about our chances a few weeks ago (when we were on that 5 game Western swing). I told you we’d be OK once we got home. You mentioned that we were playing against the League’s elite… and while that’s true, I think we’re proving that we’re among the League’s elite (even if we’re definitely a level below the ELITE elite). Glad to see you back to your optimistic and delusional ways (as you know, I’m right there with you).

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Nash MAYBE deserved one…..maybe. Dirk deserved his…..he just became the ultimate pus$y in the playoffs again which just made the pick seem totally ridiculous.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Myung is obviously high off of some printer ink or glue fumes too.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    ”He’s winning it and for the last time.” Whachu mean?
    The media did choose LeBron before the season started but they do that every year. It’s called predicitions. My question is : doesn’t he deserve it? They’re tied for the best record in the L and it’s all because of him.
    A and B have virtually identical stats. A has his team sitting on top of the L while B’s team is in the middle of the pack. It seems logical to me that A would be the favorite for the MVP. I’m just saying…

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Co-sign Eboy. Dirk deserved his. He just punked out in the 1st round. Which has nothing to do with the MVP award whatsoever.

  • Myung

    eboy, we’ve now got 17 games left. 11 of those 17 are at home, where we’re 23-7. We’ve got just TWO difficult road games left (Cleveland, Boston). Granted, we DO have to play the Blazers, Mavs, Spurs, Lakers, Magic, and Celtics at home (I’m thinking we’ll get at least 3 of those 6), and we still have one remaining game against Miami (at home). We are barely up on the Heat in the standings, and we all know there’s a chance we WILL lose that 4th seed to the Heat… but I also am confident that we will hold onto it.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    The standard the MVP is decided on is, best/most important player on one of the top teams. That’s the way it should be. Kobe wasn’t cheated back then. Just as Dirk’s MVP was deserved, and probably one of Nash’s. Haha Eboy loved the ferret line.

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    Eboy my confidensce is in the Hawks heavy home schedule this month and my belief that collectively they are better than the Heat. They only need to be ahead of them by one game at the end of the season.
    Myung February was just a brutal month, but I’ve always maintained way too much optimism for the Hawks. That won’t change. How are you feeling about Josh these days?

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    *wow bad English, sorry.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Co-sign Z.

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    or my confidence.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    I like Wade and think that he certainly has a claim to the MVP, but I just dont know if I can support it solely because of his Conference positioning without considering his Conference also. That record wouldnt even make the playoffs out West. Of course he can only play with what hes given, but ultimately I feel like the objective of the game is to win and the objective of every franchise should be to win the chip. Therefore it seems like the most valuable player would be the one who gives his team the best chance to win the title. And while Wade has taken his squad further than they should go, no one expects to see them in June. Bron and Kobe are playing for higher stakes and that makes their candidacy stronger to me.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Myles and his reasoning.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    I just love MVP discussuons.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Discussions as well…..

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    I reject the idea that the MVP should come from a top team.
    We’re all intelligent and saavy enough to be able to determine whether somebody is a good player putting up great stats because his teammates are crappy, or if a guy is just a great player whose team record is being held down by crappy teammates.
    Now, I don’t think the MVP should come from squads that are horrible, but I don’t think you have to be a TOP team to be considered.
    I prefer the argument that Lebron made in the article Holly linked to. He said when you look at squad, you should ask yourself, if a particular guy was removed, what would that team be like, and could the attributes that player provides be provided fairly well by someone else.
    Now, I think that back when Kobe had wack teammates, he was clearly taking every other team’s best shot and still dominating on a level not seen since Iverson or Jordan in their scoring primes. Kobe was unreal those two years and he was doing it on a team where nobody else was a dependable scorer. And they still won 40+ games!
    Wade isn’t killing on the same level as Kobe as far as scoring, but his overall game is on the same level. His passing is insane, his defense is sublime. Same thing with Lebron and Chris Paul. Those four guys are obviously driving their teams, and in the case of Paul and especially Wade, they are having success with subpar talent. The Heat have two rookies in their main rotation!

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Logic is for suckers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    I just think its a weak argument to just ‘take guys off of a team’ and see what happens. Then it almost becomes a contest of who has the worst team instead of who has the best team. Teammates really have not been included in the argument until the past five years or so.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Allow me to switch it up:
    -
    COY- Spoelstra
    ROY- Brook Lopez
    6th Man- Can Beasley win it as a rookie? Jet Terry, more than likely
    DPOY- Howard

  • Myung

    Co co… over all, I still support him. I bashed him a lot over the past 4.5 seasons, but going into this season (once we re-signed him), I told myself I’d suck it up and get behind him. You’ve got to know, I WANT badly for this kid to do well… but the fact remains, he is as frustrating a player as any in the League. I simply wish he would do what he does best (fill the lane on the fast break, block shots, grab boards), rather than try to LEAD fast breaks (Josh has got to be one of the worst dribbling non-centers in the entire League), shoot 3 pointers (or anything outside of 15 feet), and make no look passes. I refuse to buy into the hype that he is a future All Star. However, he wears the Hawks uniform, and I support any player in a Hawks uniform (even Josh and Flip Murray, the other frustratingly inconsistent Hawk), even if some of them make me shake my head 10 times a game. I think Josh Smith has special skills and as an athlete, he is in the top 3% of the entire League. I will continue to root for him and pull for him to do well, but I’m not sure if I’ll ever be a FAN of his, if that makes sense.

  • http://www.myspace.com/hemantsbeats what

    If the Hawks get the #4 seed, they are not losing a series to the Heat or Pistons in the first round. Not with home court advantage. They will get murdered by Cleveland in the 2nd round, but they ain’t going down in the first.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Myles
    I think that if you look at a team’s overall record you are obviously factoring in their teammates, only you’re giving them a boost for having better teammates.
    We all know that a single player cannot create championships in the League. You need other horses. So, we all know that being viewed as a contender is a byproduct of having a well-rounded team with good teammates.
    I think that creating this criteria that your team has to be ELITE before you can be considered MVP is ridiculous because there can only be a handful of elite teams in the league.
    I think you’re team should be GOOD and you as an individual player have to be transcendent. I think that works better.

  • http://www.myspace.com/hemantsbeats what

    And anyway, the Hawks’ toughest stretch of the season gets over in a week and a half once the Spurs game is over. From there on out their schedule is not too bad.

  • http://www.myspace.com/hemantsbeats what

    ^ meant Lakers game, not Spurs game

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    I certainly dont think that your team has to be elite to be considered. Wade deserves recognition, but in such a tight race these are going to be the things that matter. I think the ‘best player on the best team’ and the ‘statistical marvel/overacheiver’ arguments can both be attributed to Michael Jordan. First he won because he amazed everyone, then he won because he dominated everyone. Those two schools of thought have been the basis for everyone from Dirk to Kobe to Bron to CP3. Everyone loves an underdog, but ultimately the purpose is to win. And thats been the criteria since before the 80′s when the media didnt even vote on MVP, the players did.

  • Myung

    Tad, I’m with you on DPOY (Dwight). As for COY, I like what Rick Adelman (6th best record in the entire League), Gregg Poppovich (2nd best record in the West), and Scott Skiles (currently the 8th seed in the East) have done, in spite of the injuries their teams have had to deal with. I’d give the nod to Adelman right now. 6th man: I’d give it to JET (in spite of his injuries), even though I think Iverson would’ve won it had he been healthy and had he been in the 6th man role from the beginning of the season. And lastly, ROY, I’d go with Westbrook, even though a STRONG case could be made for Rose, Mayo, Gordon, and Lopez. It’s going to the tightest ROY race since maybe 1999 (in terms of the NUMBER of guys who legitimately have a right to win the award).

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    I’m sorry, I kinda thought MVP was given to a person for his efforts in the entire SEASON, and not just the last month. Because, you know, if the MVP was given out to the player performing best in the last month, Wade gets it hands down.
    I think it’s still the season though, so I think it’s still Lebron’s to win.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    I’m worried about giving Coach of the Year to Spoelstra… not because he doesn’t deserve it, but because he may suddenly SUCK in a year or two like Dirk and Nash and even though he deserves it this season, he may get fired in two years, and then it’ll totally ruin the system.
    Thank GOD Chris Paul didn’t get MVP last year, even though he deserved it. With the way his squad is playing and all, it woulda been really embarrassing!

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Jukai and his pretzel logic.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Myung: Yes, ROY race will be pretty tight. I think we can safely eliminate Gordon. Rose and Mayo are still the front runners, but Lopez is becoming a double-double machine and Westbrook is a stat filler. Should be quite interesting.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Eboy: I’ll give you this, if Lebron closes out the season a little weaker, and Wade keeps playing like he’s playing now for the entire rest of the regular season, then it’s Wade’s to win.

  • Myung

    If you look strictly at the key stats (ppg, rpg, apg), then yes, you eliminate Gordon (because his apg and rpg are very low). But as a total package, I’m not sure if you can just eliminate Gordon right now. There’s still a month to go, and right now, his ppg are 4th among rookies, and if he got minutes earlier in the season, I think he’d easily be in the top 2. He’s also got a higher FG% than Westbrook, and he’s got a higher 3 point % than Rose, Mayo, and Westbrook. If you look at the guy who hurts him team the least, I think you give it to Lopez (since he rebounds well, blocks shots, and shoots a high FG%). Has there ever been a three way ROY? I know we’ve had Co-ROY before…

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Myles
    I’ll refer you to the year Moses Malone won with a sub-.500 record.
    But, I understand you’re point. It’s just a matter of preference, and I’ve stated my preference, which is purely subjective.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    jukai
    The Hornets are playing pretty well considering the injuries they’ve had and David West’s subpart performance.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    *your

  • http://ittakesanationofmillionstoholdthissac.blogspot.com ciolkstar

    Terrible day to be late here. Yall are killing it. I think its Wade and Bron and the way they finish the season will be important, bron was a front runner but Wade is clearly gaining speed and will challenge, especially if the Heat get homecourt.

  • http://ittakesanationofmillionstoholdthissac.blogspot.com ciolkstar

    “Pretzel logic” is nice, E.

  • http://www.lkz.ch Darksaber

    sorry for my being away. First i had nothing new to contribute to this premature mvp argument that has been raging here for days. 2nd, i had to be revived after fainting while reading multiple commenters here admit that Dirk earned his regular season award in ’06. (Eboy??? Z???) shocking change of dirkbashing policy.

  • http://ittakesanationofmillionstoholdthissac.blogspot.com ciolkstar

    I like Pop as coach of the year (sorry, I can’t help it sometimes) or maybe Sloan if the Jazz make a big run late and get homecourt, but myung mentioned a bunch of worthy coaches.
    I can’t even call ROY. I’ll admit I’m partial to Westbrook and Brook Lopez, Gordon needed to stay healthy to sustain the momentum he had and Lopez has been a bit inconsistent, especially recently. I just think Rose and Mayo were over hyped early and while they started hot they’ve both really fallen back to earth. The more I think about it, I like Brook as a surprise winner, but it won’t happen. Sadly, I’m seeing a Rose-Mayo CoROY.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Allenp: I’ve made a list of all the players who should apologize for winning the MVP and return them as soon as possible:
    Bob McAdoo, Bill Walton, Karl Malone, Allen Iverson (don’t argue with me here, what’s fair is fair), Steve Nash, Dirk No-Win-Ski!
    I was going to say Kobe should too, but apparently the SLAM consensus (which is non-media, because all the media thinks identically and they are all biased) was that he actually won it in 2005-2006, so I guess he should keep it and Chris Paul should be given one of the returned ones.
    Also, Lebron should never win one because if he does, it’s because Stern/the Media/Someone who is in high power and evil/Ryan Jones likes Lebron, and not because he actually won it.

  • Myung

    Allenp, I love your point about mentioning Moses Malone. The point I’ve been trying to hammer home every single season is this: the NBA needs a consistent system in choosing its MVP. If not, one year, you’ll have Dirk winning because he’s the best player on the team with the best record and one year, you’ll have Moses Malone (like you mentioned), winning the MVP on a below .500 team because he was the best STATISTICAL player in the League. The BCS is highly unpopular, but at least computers make sure there’s some consistency (see: formula) to the process. Look, the game has changed, the way we cover games has changed, the media has changed. Why can’t the MVP award change?

    I know it may be unpopular move to all of a sudden change the voting process, but let’s take a look at the HOF, for example. My friend and I made the trek to Springfield two years ago and were shocked by some of the guys who are in the Hall (Google it, if you must). Just look at some of the guys from the 50′s (and more importantly their stats) who are in there. There’s NO WAY some of those guys would even be NOMINATED these days, but the game has changed, standards have been raised and that’s that. You’re not going to kick those guys out of the Hall, but obviously in the past 3 decades, the bar has been raised. Similarly, we’re not going to take away MVP awards from guys like Moses or the Mailman or Nash or Dirk, but shouldn’t we get to a point where we can finally have some sort of consistency? Is it the best player from the best teams? If so, we eliminate CP3 and Wade from the argument. Is it the best statistical season? In that way, a pre-injury Al Jefferson would actually be up for consideration. Why can’t there be a consistent process?

  • Myung

    Ciolk, your boy Joe Johnson is finally back on track.

  • http://ittakesanationofmillionstoholdthissac.blogspot.com ciolkstar

    Even I said that dirk deserved his MVP that season Dark, the Mavs were playing incredible regular season ball, and Dirk was the main reason they were so tough to beat. And the year before, when the Mavs beat the Spurs in the playoffs Dirk was completely unguardable on the pick and roll, in fact I felt like the entire Mavs team didn’t miss a midrage jumper all series. I just don’t think Dirk is at that level anymore, and when his shot isn’t falling like it has been recently he doesn’t do much else to help them win.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Izzo

    Nash deserved the first MVP,Dirk also deserved his…..

  • Myung

    What, I hate to correct you, but the Hawks toughest stretch doesn’t with the Spurs game. After we play the Spurs, we play the Celtics and Lakers.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    The award is most likely intentionally vague in order to allow as many arguments as possible. And though there have been noteworthy f*ck ups, looking back since the writers have been given the vote somewhere in the late 70′s/early 80′s, more oft than not, theyve gotten it right. To just construct a hard criteria would certainly narrow things down and leave out deserving players. MVPs are like art, you cant define it, but you just know one when you see it.

  • Myung

    We have an upcoming stretch where we play at Cleveland, host Myles Brown’s favorite team (that should be an automatic W), then host the Spurs, Celtics, and Lakers, all within 7 days. Has any other team had a 5 game stretch this season where they play the 2 best team in each conference? Yikes…

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Allenp, IMO a guy on an average team should never get the MVP. It’s not best player in the league, it’s most valuable player. How valuable are you in the greater scheme of things if your team has no chance of contending? It doesn’t make you less of a player, though. I also believe that the MVP doesn’t necessarily have to go to the best individual in the game. It’s all about context. / Co-sign Myles, I really don’t like the whole taking out someone of a team argument. You’re de facto rewarding players for having sh!tty teammates. I had no problem with Bron not getting the MVP 2-3 years ago and I think that he deserves it this year. /Wade would have a better case if he was head and shoulders above the comp this year. Can you say that Wade is having a MUCH better season than Kobe and LBJ? No, certainly not. Now, he deserves to be considered for sure and I think everybody agrees on this. I just don’t have him winning it. When your team is average, you have to create separation between yourself and the other candidates. As Jukai pointed, nobody was talking about Wade for MVP until a month ago. The separation is not there.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Darksaber, I still wouldn’t trade Durant for the 06 MVP.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Z, I believe I heard Eboy clearing his throat.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Jukai
    You’re going to have to explain that Iverson pick to me. You know that?
    Best record in the East, lead the league in scoring, and all while having mediocre talent. Sounds like D-Wade this year to me.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Allenp: All valid points… BUT right after that, it turns out he sucks and he can’t lead his team to beans. So, it must have either been the system which made him better, or it was the media that was actually making him LOOK good when he really wasn’t.
    So his MVP was a sham.
    And he should return it.
    Just like Dirk and Nash.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    No it doesnt.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Izzo

    Z:You’re out of your f*cking mind.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Again….Dwyane won’t win the MVP this year. And he hasn’t been “average” the rest of this season….he’s just been off the charts good this last part which makes everything else he was doing seem less impactful.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Z
    Like I said earlier, if you base the award on team record, you’re punishing players for having crapy teammates and GMs.
    I don’t see the argument that considering teammates rewards guys on poor teams. Everybody who watches ball knows when somebody is putting up legit numbers and when they are just going for dolo on a wack squad.
    I think limiting the argument to legit contenders is a way too confining. I think in any given year there are only two, or three teams that are legit contenders. Occassionally it’s four. However, there are typically five to six players whose play is so amazing that could be considered MVP.
    I’ve always preferred the argument about MVP being the best player in the league, who also manages to have some team success.
    I think that if no one can make a legitimate argument that you are the best player in the league, then you don’t deserve to be MVP. That’s why I had a problem with Dirk’s MVP and Nash’s MVP’s. But, that is purely subjective.
    (And yes, you could make that argument for Iverson when he won the MVP, Jukai.)

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    Theres very little corellation between A.I. and Wade. The East was at its absolute weakest that year, but regardless, Philly had the best record-not 5th best. And one of their ‘role players’ was the DPOY. Most importatntly, A.I. passed the MVP litmus test in the playoffs by going to the Finals. If the Miami Heat are still playing basketball in June, then…well, it wont happen.

  • http://www.lkz.ch Darksaber

    mvp’s are like art. Deep, Brown.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Jukai
    I think Eboy was right about the shape of your logic.
    Iverson led his team to the Finals. They then went to the playoffs the next two years, if I’m not mistaken. He then put up 30 and 7 for three years, while making the playoffs one of those years with Chris Webber as his second banana. During that time period, the other second bananas Iverson had to work with were Toni Kukoc, Matt Harpring and Keith Van Horn.
    I don’t see your point at all.

  • Michael

    The Sixers won 56 games the year Iverson won. The HEat are on pace to win 44.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    He was never average, his team is. / Izzo : can you expand?

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    I’ve always believed that looking back, there is a legit argument for Nash’s first MVP, even though his numbers were underwhelming and he had incredible talent around him.
    However, the second one was my big problem because I felt like it should have been either Kobe or Lebron.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Myles
    Damn you for investigating my argument.
    I can’t argue with all the holes you picked in my argument. You’re right.
    Iverson was far more deserving as MVP.
    And, he only had Deke for half the year and the team’s record before they got Deke was better than after. Iverson also had Aaron Mckie, who was pretty good.

  • http://www.lkz.ch Darksaber

    eff the litmus test. It’s a regular season award. The playoff outcome or results have nothing to do with it. Otherwise, drop the stupid finals mvp award, and name the mvp after the finals.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Ivey absolutely deserved the MVP that year. The knock against him ain’t that he can’t lead a team… it’s that he can’t thrive in a system that’s not tailor-made for him. Basically, he’s effective when he dominates the ball and everything revolves around him.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Allenp: He made the playoffs ONE of those years, and Chris Webber, according to you, is one of the top ten best 4s of all time.
    Maybe Chris Webber made Iverson better.
    Just like Stockton and Sloan made Malone better.
    And Devin Harris made Dirk better.
    And D’Antoni and Marion made Nash better.
    And whoever the hell Bob McAdoo had on his team who somehow managed to get him to score 30 points a game or something.
    I don’t really believe anything I’m saying Allenp, I’m really just mocking you.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    If they voted on this after the playoffs, would that fix anything?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    No one ever explicitly said that players on weak teams dont matter, its just that its hard to overlook a player on a contender unless the player on said weak team went so far above and beyond the call of duty that he has to be recognized. That rarely happens. Very, very rarely. In 1962 Wilt averaged 50&25. Oscar averaged a trip. MVP? Bill Russell.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Okay, lemme clear two things up:
    1) Iverson is a top 5 sg of all time and deserved his MVP, I was mocking Allenp
    2) Nash did not deserve his second MVP, but people suddenly seem to HATE HIM for winning the second one while ignoring the fact that he legitly deserved the first (he was a top-5 player in the league that year, get over it).

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Izzo

    Does the MVP award matter all that much anyway?I’m just saying that in basketball(and maybe other American sports,I don’t know)huge emphasis is placed on individual awards moreso than any other team sport in the world.Ok you’re going to be p*ssed if you’re a fan,but considering that it’s only the OPINION of a select few journalist,many of whom have enough access so that their votes can be swayed by bias,it really doesn’t seem all that definitive,and probably shouldn’t be taken as so.But what’s the alternative?Setting strict criteria?As Myles already pointed that wouldn’t really work out.Just take the MVP with a pinch of salt,whoever wins the MVP may not be the most valuable player in the league,but I have a hard time saying that anyone who plays well enough to be consider to be in contention doesn’t deserve his MVP.It’s all relative and sh*t.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Z: So you’re saying that Iverson is a system player… like Nash?

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Izzo

    ^That’ll make sense when coupled with alcohol.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Izzo

    Eh,who isn’t a system player?

  • http://www.lkz.ch Darksaber

    no TAD. It would cause a whole new riot. Was just responding to Myles statement earlier

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    You don’t think D’Antoni made Nash better?
    interesting.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    I like riots. Oh, and Izzo is smart when coupled with alcohol.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    Its not just a regular season award. If it were then everyone would be eligible. But what is one of the primary ‘requirements’? Playoffs.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Izzo: I’m just screwing with Allenp. Dude’s been coming down -HARD- on my boy Nash recently, so I have to smack him around a bit today. I feel bad using Iverson as an example again (it was merely by accident as I had looked up former MVPs who have had numerous bad years after winning the award) because I really don’t hate the dude, think he’s one of the best players of all time, and hope he leaves that rotting $*#)hole that’s Detroit and goes somewhere where he could win a ring.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Jukai, almost everybody agrees that Nash deserved the 1st one. The reason why it’s such a big deal that he stole the 2nd one (by a landslide!) is that winning consecutive MVPs is a EFFING BIG DEAL! Tim Duncan, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Moses Malone, Kareem-Abdul Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell. That’s the list of guys who won consecutive MVPs. Nash is not quite up there.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Izzo
    I understand your argument. But, people place a lot of emphasis on whether or not a player has won an MVP.
    It was a big deal that Nash was the first point guard to win an MVP since Magic, and that he won two in a row.
    The fact that Bird won three in a row, is a big deal for him as well.
    MVPs matter because the same people who vote on them also use those awards to decide where a player fits in the history of the League.
    Did Isiah ever win an MVP?

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Izzo

    If it was a regular season award.Michael Redd would have won one by now.Thank f*ck for THAT criteria.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    And I hate bashing Nash like that because I love the dude and I appreciate how he’s reppin Canada… but you slurp him so much that I can’t help it.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Z
    Saying Nash is “not quite up there,” is like saying Ron Artest is only a “little crazy.”

  • http://www.lkz.ch Darksaber

    everyone, you DO realize that over the past few games, the top 3 candidates for mvp have bern engaged in a round of “can you top this”? Wade’s double figure assists couplef with efficient (high) scorimg. Lbj tripdubbing allover the place. Mambiatch getting mad at crazy artest and saying” f*ck it, these fools must have forgotten who they are messing with. Time for a spanking”! Fantastic performances this seeson. I bet all three check slamonline from time to time to see what we be writing.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    Speaking of Isiah, funny story. In 89, the season after he scored 25 points in a single quarter of the NBA Finals-on a sprained ankle at that, Isiah Thomas ledthe Detroit Pistons to a 63-19 record. Six games better than the Lakers. He got ONE vote and ONE total point on that years ballot.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    If those three read Slamonline, they should get smacked in the face.
    That’s what flunkies are for.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Very good point. ^^^^^^^^
    I didn’t know Oscar had his triple double season the same year Wilt average 50, and dropped 100. That is awesome.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Myles
    The moral of that story is NEVER, EVER say anything bad about Larry Bird.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Flunkies are resourceful.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    Indeed. Didnt help that he was the one in Jordans way either. Poor guy. Maybe destroying one of the leagues flagship franchises was his revenge.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Myles, wow! I didn’t know that. Were people just hating? How was Zeke with the media in his playing days?

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Z
    See my Larry Bird comment for clarification.

  • http://www.lkz.ch Darksaber

    i thought flunkies were there….for them TO POOP ON?!! (sorry triumph, had to)

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    Not for anything but Nash is averaging 15 points and ten assists a game. Its not like he’s brent price out there.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Myles, i’m confused by your 1:59 comment. Are you saying they should vote on MVP after the playoffs? Also, yeah Zeke got screwed, but that team was also pretty stacked. They went 10 deep most nights.

  • Michael

    That just shows you how beloved Magic and Bird were, and how hated Isiah was.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    Zeke has always been Zeke. I believe it’s been dubbed ‘The Isiah Thomas corollary’ of which the rational is “F*ck you, I don’t care what you did, I’m not voting for you”. Forget about Kobe, Isiah got screwed harder than anyone ever has on an MVP ballot. Its not even close.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    I’d argue that Isiah was more of a great team player on a really strong Pistons team…..not necessarily the most valuable of that roster. Joe was as efficient a scorer and their frontline was critical to the teams success….Isiah was a fantastic singular talent….but he never had gigantic individual seasons that may have made him stand out in an MVP race.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Izzo

    Allen:
    That’s my gripe really.People placing too much emphasis and taking the OPINIONS(I can’t stress this enough)of a select few with access as gospel.I believe that Nash deserved his MVP.That doesn’t automatically equate to me believing that Nash is better than Isiah Thomas.I think you’re on the money about people looking at MVPs as a basis of deciding where someone fits in the history of the Lig,that’s not right IMO.An MVP award should be there to reward a single season,so someone with an MVP award can easily be a lesser player than someone without one.That’s another problem I have with the whole MVP thing,it being rewarded because of legacy(or body of work)-not necessarily on one season.Kobe absolutely HAD to win last year because it’s clear how important a place in basketball history Kobe already holds and it would be seen as a travesty if he didn’t.
    I think people should really actually watch basketball and watch players play to judge what place in history they’ll.Looking merely at awards and honour rolls is the kind of sh*t that’ll get Robert Horry in the HoF.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Bryan
    So, he’s putting up roughly the exact same numbers he put up when he won MVP the first time?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    I just think its silly to proclaim the award is solely about the regular season if making the playoffs is one of the primary requirements. Of course they dont include the playoffs, but I wish they did. You could have a league MVP voted on after the Conf Finals and then still have a Finals MVP.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Yeah, Shia, you little David Leelovin’ fuc*er!

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Unrelated : LO should really seek a sports psychologist. It’s like he can’t handle playing basketball at a high level for more than 10 games in a row. As soons as people are recognizing and saying stuff like ‘if he boarded like that every game, he’d be a perennial allstar’… he starts sucking again. IMO, he’s one of the weakest dudes in the L between the ears.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    Isiah once averaged 21 and 14 or something that’s pretty standout eboy. And also kill me for saying this but the year after Nash won his first mvp amare stoudamire was lost for the season and his points jumped by 3 per game and we won’t mention the shooting percentages and the team had a miniscule drop off from the previous, why now did he not deserve that mvp? Because “steve nash isn’t magic or bird” that’s a crock of sh*t. Also Dwade should be in the mvp discussion because of his teams rapid improvement and ridiculous numbers. I love Lebron but I’m not sold on him for mvp. Mvp of the media? Sure. Blasphemeous as it is to me dwade AND kobe are having better seasons.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    Isiah Thomas was the emotional leader of that team, its most talented player and the one they expected to deliver in the clutch. Mark Price, Kevin Johnson, Mark Eaton, Robert Parish, Chris Mullin, Tom Chambers, Larry Nance, Terry Cummings and Joe Dumars had as many or more votes that year. It was absolutely inexcusable.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Eboy
    Have you checked Isiah’s early stats? I have, take a look homie.
    He changed his game to let Joe Dumars get his and get everybody else shots. But, early on, he was crazy dominant as an individual player.
    Isiah and his team’s image weren’t really appreciated back then.
    The Pistons had a real swagger about them and they were beating up on the media’s golden team, the Celtics. They might not beat the Celtics, but they beat up on them every time they played.
    Plus, Zeke had that me against the world mentality that the media really does not like, then he called them all racists. It was over for him after that. The fact that Isiah didn not make the Dream Team and Chris Mullin and Christian Laettner did is just sad. Even with Jordan against him, that’s sad.
    Finally, from what I understand, Isiah was beloved coming out of Indiana, although he caught a little flack for leaving school early. However, after those Larry Bird comments, his image was never the same.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    In soccer they give out the player of the year award way after the end of the season when everything has been decided. (league chip, league cup, champions league)

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    And they really should just give the MVP vote back to the players/coaches. Every head coach and team captain should get a ballot and you cant vote for your own guy.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    I actually agree with you Myles. I just was wondering your stance.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Allen, Shia, I thought we were talking about the Pistons as being perenial playoff teams in relation to this MVP argument….not when they weren’t. My bad. I knew his stat lines from early on.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Izzo

    Z:And nobody really pays all that much attention to them.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Eboy
    No prob. You’re right, his numbers changed when the team really took off, but that is the way it should work. I understand what you were saying though.
    Bryan
    You know what get’s overlooked in Nash’s second year? The fact that Shawn Marion tooks his game to another level that season. Look at his stats. Then, look at his numbers from the Clippers series. If I’m not mistaken, he averaged around 23 and 13! With a block a couple steals. That’s crazy. Nobody talks about Marion raising his game, it’s just about Nash “carrying” them.
    I’ve always said I understand why Marion was pissed.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    ”Blasphemeous as it is to me dwade AND kobe are having better seasons.” I’m waiting for your arguments.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Co-sign Z.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Izzo

    Allenp:Marion had been averaging 19 and almost 11 all that season,23 and 13 isn’t a massive step up.As always you’re undervaluing Nash.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Can we just say that Shawn Marion shouldn’t even be within 10 miles of any form of a MVP discussion? I mean, come on now.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    I’d ask Allenp where Marion ranks in TOP FOWARDS, but I’m not sure if he’s a small forward or a power forward and I’m not getting into THAT again!

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    not that it matters but 23 and 13 is a massive step up from 19 and 11.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Izzo

    Z:That was one series,for the whole Playoffs he averaged 20 and 11.Not a big step up.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    marion is 3 through and through. he just happens to be able to guard bigs and he’s a savage on the glass. him playing the 4 is just a by-product of the whole small ball thing.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    Marion had increased production for sure, but that was a product of the system and more room to run and collect garbage points and boards due to Amare’s absence. I’ve made my feelings on marion clear, if anyone in the league was a product of D’antoni it was him. For some reason everyone says Nash was made by D’antoni but check the numbers this year , very similar especially after the all star break. Marion is nothing more than a garbage man all star and nothign will change my mind about that.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    ACtually, Marion average 25.6 and 12.8 against the Clippers.
    His numbers for the season were 21.8 and 11.8.
    Look at that.
    He also shot 52 percent from the floor, 33 percent from three and 80 percent from the line.
    He shouldn’t have been MVP, but damn, the man deserved some props for picking up the slack, right?
    He led the team in scoring, rebounding, block and steals, while being second in field goal percentage that year.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Bryan
    I can’t believe you are saying the system made Marion, but it didn’t make Nash.
    I think Marion would thrive in ANY fastbreak system, which he did when he had Marbury and Kidd running the one for him. He was putting up 17 and 10 by his SECOND year.
    Look, I’m not a big Marion fan, but I think the man’s contributions have been slept on.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Izzo

    Allenp:In that playoff run,Marion averaged less than his regular season numbers.You’re placing a lot of importance on a series against the Clippers.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Shawn Marion is upset that Shawn Marion has been slept on.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    I know its similar to saying “all dwight howard does is dunk” but all Marion can do is play off an elite guard feeding him the ball in the exact spot he needs it to score. He cannot create for himself or others. Great numbers definitley but without Nash what has he done? Nothing and he will continue to do nothing unless he plays for Mike D or plays with a chris paul or nash or someone like that.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Izzo
    That’s because those numbers are CRAZY.
    Honestly, if somebody told you that Shawn Marion could average 25.6 and 12.8 while guarding Elton Brand, what would you say? I mean, Brand was still killing him, but come on.
    My point was not that Marion was the MVP of his team, but that the media seemed to attribute the increased production of the Suns and their team success to magic of Steve Nash instead of increased production by everyone on the team. If I’m Shawn Marion, that pisses me off.
    But, you’re right about Marion only really killing in one series. He didn’t play that well in the other series. Boris Diaw put up 25 a game against the Mavs in the conference Finals that year.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Okay, I guess Shawn Marion and Isiah Thomas should both get MVP trophies once McAdoo/Walton/Malone/Iverson/Nash/No-Win-Ski turn in their trophies

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Bryan
    That’s like me saying that Nash is only good if he’s playing with an elite forward in an uptempo style.
    Or that Iverson is good only at the off guard.
    Well, duh.
    Different players have different strengths.
    Kareem wasn’t getting out finishing on the break.
    And Bill Russell wasn’t camping out in the post.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Jukai
    Does your sarcasm comfort you on those cold lonely nights when you’re watching Steve Nash get butt f(ucked by opposing point guards?
    lmao
    Just playing.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    And Lebron can’t shoot off screens!

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Allenp
    It doesn’t. It doesn’t at all =(

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Izzo

    Allenp:The media attributing the increased production of the Suns to Nash and not Marion is because Marion had put these numbers up before,while he was the man in PHX and the team was garbage.Marion can get p*ssed off all he wants,but the facts are that when he was the man on an team(yes I do think he was ahead of Steph) they weren’t all that good.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Imagine that harmonious lockerroom with Steph and Maid Marion. Those must have been great times.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    Except that Nash actually is not only good in those instances. But the same other than that. Saying that iverson is only good at the off guard or Kareem is only good in the low post is different. I wonder if you know what the difference is, in case you don’t allow me to lay it out for you. Throw the ball into Kareem and watch him work the post and score. Throw the ball to Iverson on the wing and watch him destroy whoever is guarding him and score. Throw the ball to the nash and watch him set up a teamate to score or score himself. Throw the ball to shawn marion and watch him shoot instantly or get rid of it. All the players you listed didn’t and don’t need another player to be successful and get theirs Marion does and if you can’t see that then I don’t know what to say to you.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Izzo

    His achievements have been diluted a lot by the whole ‘he doesn’t deserve the MVPs’ thing,but it’s hard to understate how fun Nash was to watch during those years.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Izzo

    *hard to overstate.

  • ti-sizz

    did anyone else get annoyed seeing moon jack up 3′s at the end of the 4th quarter?? i see him do that a lot and woah.. he thinks he’s ray allen or something.. he’s really not a consistent 3 point shooter, just take it to the hole.. at least he got some Big rebounds.. go miami!

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    ti-sizz, not now, we’re debating.

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    Shawn Marion’s name should be banned from this site until he at least has another 20 and 10 game.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Hi B. Long!

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Izzo
    They were in the playoffs most of his career. I mean, they lost in the playoffs a lot, but they were there.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Bryan
    When have you seen Nash play without an All-Star level forward and still be good? I mean, outside of Santa Clara?

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    To be clear, I’m not downing Nash.
    Nor am I saying that Marion is an elite player.
    I’m just pointing out that Marion has gotten a rep as being a selfish malcontent, when for years in Phoenix he was a good soldier doing the diry work.
    He was the team’s most versatile defender, it’s best rebounder and gave the most consistent effort. He was good with Kidd, with KJ, with Marbury and with Nash. Sure, those are all great players, but they are great in different ways.
    I think Marion is limited as a one-on-one scorer, but he’s a great rebounder and he’s great at hustling and getting easy buckets. D’Antoni’s style maximized this, but Marion was doing that before he even met Mike.
    Plus, he took his game to another level when Amare was out. Just like Nash.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    Right now? Since amare went down what’s he doing? Also lets say we haven’t seen him so we don’t exactly know what he would do but we have seen what shawn marion does without a dynamic lead guard and its not pretty.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Did Allenp say he’s not trying to “down Nash?”
    Really?
    I mean, really?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    [LizLemon]Shut it down![LizLemon]

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Bryan
    I agree with you that Marion can’t create his own shot.
    That doesn’t make him wack.
    It just makes him limited. Reggie Miller couldn’t create his own shot either.
    Slow the game down and Nash struggles.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Jukai had “going down” and “Nash” on his mind and got worried that Allen may have been moving in mentally.

  • http://ittakesanationofmillionstoholdthissac.blogspot.com ciolkstar

    Marion was always garbage against the Spurs. That might have been what held the Suns back in the playooff more than ANYTHING else.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    After Eboy did everything in this comment section but write slash fanfiction of himself and Wade, I find his comment highly hypocritical.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Once again…..Jukai and his big pretzel logic. Jukai……you did say you have a heavy rooting interest in the Cavs now right? Nothing like a slow, methodical crossover to winning fandom, huh?

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Eboy: I know Steeley Dan is your favorite musician of all time, but the whole “pretzel logic” thing is getting old. I’ve had a heavy rooting interest in the Cavs for years. I’m still rooting for Phoenix even though they’re not making the playoffs for beans this year.
    Besides, last year you cursed every single piece of the Heat organization up and down… now your mouth is once again so permanently grafted to Wade’s @$$ that I’d need the jaws of life to remove it. What’re you getting at now?

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Jukai
    I know you don’t believe me, but I do appreciate Nash’s game. The dude is amazing on offense. Seriously, he is highly skilled, extremely gutsy and just a fun player to watch.
    It’s all the other stuff that’s gotten mixed up into his game and what it represents and where it stands in the pantheon of great point guards that has caused me a problem.
    I don’t have a problem with Nash. I just want the same standards applied to him that are applied to other players. That’s all.
    For example, have any of y’all ever heard Doug Collins criticize Nash for playing poor defense?
    I never have. I’ve heard him criticize other players, but I’ve never heard him say a critical word about Nash. Why is that?
    In fact, how many announcers say anything critical about Nash’s game? Is he just that perfect?

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Allenp: That’s your perception. I feel the exact same way you feel about Iverson. You don’t have to keep bringing up your gripes about Nash in every single thread. We know, you just HATE the fact he got two MVPs, it eats you up inside.
    I just glanced over at a list I made a year ago (I love lists) and I had Nash at “twelve” in terms of all-time point guards. Am I overvaluing him? I can guarentee I’m one of Nash’s biggest fans.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Jukai fails at life yet again. I never started rooting for another squad cause they sucked….I just stated obvious facts that they did indeed…..sucked, dummy dum dum. You seem to be getting ready to order Eastern Conference champs shirts and hats and commerative SI issues once the Cavs make their run….so that’s what I was getting at.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    *suck (singular)

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Eboy: I’ve had a Lebron James jersey for four years. I’ve clearly been prepping to JUMP ON THE CAVALIERS BANDWAGON for four years now, it seems.
    Don’t tell me you don’t have a second/third/fourth favorite team, do you? I love the Suns, but I’ve also always been a huge Cavaliers and Mavericks fan, and recently I’ve been very fond of the Bobcats. Should I write out my favorite teams from favorite to least favorite so in the future this doesn’t happen? Will you save it to your computer and constantly compare it to everything I say?

  • http://www.kicksonfire.com Anton

    Shut up about the Lakers already for f*cks sakes.

  • http://www.hibiahi20.blogspot.com BETCATS

    why does everybody do all the commenting when i am gone? Am i really that much of a buzz kill now?

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Perhaps you should (list the teams, I mean)……and no I don’t cheer for another squad. In my 25+ years of NBA watching…..I’ve rooted for two teams…..the Bulls from the late 70′s to the end of Michael’s run and the Heat…since they started as a franchise the same year I moved to Florida in the late 80′s. I really liked the Webber/Peja/Divac kings too….but never flew to Sacremento or anything to see a game. So no…..I havent jumped from ship to ship in almost 30 years of watching the sport.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    I root for only one team. However, I root for many players.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com DP

    I was wondering the same exact thing BET. I swear I need some more computer classes.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com DP

    I myself have had only one main team and that is LA. My father was with me as well until Shaq left. For some strange reason, he has an obession with the guy. He is now a PHX guy. But who knows? The way Shaq has been acting lately, my dad might be a laker fan real soon.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Eboy/TADOne: Well, you’re greater team fans than I am. I root for a good half a dozen teams. That doesn’t make the ugly sting of watching the Suns collapse any less hurtful. It just means I can still take enjoyment from watching the Cavaliers win the championship this year.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    Cause, I mean, it will be pretty cool when Lebron joins Jordan, Willis, and Shaq for another accomplishment that very few players do in their careers.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Which is what?

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    I only root for players. The only reason I care about the Cavs is that I love watching LeBron play. I root for two teams: 1) Man Utd 2) Montreal Canadiens (I don’t love hockey but you have to be a Montrealer to know what they represent here. Yankees times 10.)

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Root for players in the NBA, of course.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    C’mon Eboy, you really should be able to figure this one out yourself

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com DP

    I root for B-roy, CP3, Rudy, D-will, and Nate Robinson. Nate has become a f*cking problem and he is starting to become one of my favorite players in the L period.

  • http://sfdjilf.com Jukai

    DP: Shaq acted pretty asinine during his Laker days. Not sure why anything he does now will turn him off more than anything he has done before.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com DP

    The only thing I like about the Montreal Canadiens is there fitted hats. fly stuff right there.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com DP

    true that, Jukai. Even though I don’t approve of Shaq’s behavior as of late, dude has been balling over the past few weeks and it has me wondering…do the suns really have those trainers that heal all and make you awesome? Shaq said they are like miracle workers.

  • http://www.hibiahi20.blogspot.com BETCATS

    Shaq is just doing all the beefing so people will be like “oh its just old shaq” then look at his numbers. Basically he is a attention wh0re. The same thing goes with him ridding Kobe’s d!ck as of late. I dont like Kobe, but i think he showed some character not to play along. I like the fact he is not @ss kissing back, because everybody can see what Shaq is doing, and it is a$$ kissing. Why is he a$$ kissing you ask? Because he wants to retire a Laker and a Champion and be able to take credit for it all 10 years from now.

  • http://ittakesanationofmillionstoholdthissac.blogspot.com ciolkstar

    I really don’t see Shaq and Kobe together on the Lakers again. Its probably Stern’s(and ESPN’s) wet dream, but I just don’t see it happening.

  • http://www.hibiahi20.blogspot.com BETCATS

    cio: Kobe wont let it happen, but i see no other reason Shaq all the sudden is acting so luvey-duvey with ‘the Kobester’ as he calls him on his twitter page.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Jukai
    My list
    1. Magic
    2. Oscar
    3. Isiah
    4. Stockton
    5. Walt
    6. Payton
    7. Kidd
    8. Pearl
    9. Cousy
    10. Tiny
    11. KJ
    12. Lenny Wilkens
    13. Nash

  • http://www.hibiahi20.blogspot.com BETCATS

    i can see that Allenp is a fan of point guards…

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Notice the low placement of Cousy, which very different from where most folks put him.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Payton ahead of Kidd. Interesting. I don’t disagree though, but it could be a very good debate. / Ryne, you need to do that every monday. 2 players, let the commenters compare them and have a poll.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Damn, you made me look at KJ’s stats. Dude doesn’t get enough love. He was COLD!

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Z
    Good catch. In my opinion, Kidd gets too much of a pass for his failure to really become a dependable scorer. He’s still awesome, but he’s been in the league too long to still struggle so much with his shot. I don’t care what his percentages are this year, he’s not a good shooter.
    In comparison, Payton came into the league as a bad shooter, made himself dangerous, and basically was the best defender in the league for like five or six years. Now, he doesn’t have the innate passing ability that Kidd does, but he’s more than adequate and he held his own against an all-time great like John Stockton on a regular basis. I like Payton’s swagger more than Kidd’s and I think he’s just overall a better developed player. But, I can see the opposite argument.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Z
    I know, I know. I used to have a long running debate with one of my homies about Steve Nash’s place in the pantheon and he was way more delusional than Jukai.
    So, I had to go back and start pulling the stats for some of the point guards I remembered from my youth. That’s how I learned exactly how dominant Payton was and how raw KJ and Mark Price were. I was tempted to put Price over Nash, but the injuries limited him.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Only 3 players averaged 20-10 for three straight seasons : Zeke, Big O and KJ

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    And, for those of you who think there is no way Price can compare to Nash, I suggest you check out his career stats and then remember he never played in a truly uptempo style.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    KJ and Payton are the two most slept on point guards of all-time. Easily.
    Who else is putting up 22-24 a game with 8-12 assists for three or four years straight?
    Kidd never did that. Even Nash has never done that, although he’s gotten close.
    And both of them put up those numbers without being great three point shootes. Hell, KJ didn’t even shoot threes. You add in Payton’s otherwordly defense, the man did a credible job on Jordan, well come on.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    Steve Nash started slow for all the stat geeks but from when got to be a starter until now he’s been in the upper reaches. His per 36 minute stats are right in line with his mvp years something around 16 and 9. I don’t debate his spot on your list though aside from Lenny pretty spot on.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Izzo

    We’re doing lists now?Surely we’ve moved past that.

  • http://www.hibiahi20.blogspot.com BETCATS

    Allenp, where is Jerry West on your list?

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    But lost on everyone who looks at the numbers is his impact on the game, a lot of people rush to say Jason Kidd deserves one mvp for turning the nets around literally ignoring the fact that he inherited a complete and healthy team that Marbury never did so why not steve nash? He turned around a losing season and then the following year lost a 26 ppg monster power forward and still won 56 games. If he doesn’t have those slow first 3 seasons no one is debating his spot in history. The defense part of his game is inexcusable but he is as good or better on offense than anyone in the game. Especially the last 5 years. Only haters can see a season like last year where he put up 17 points and 11 assists and say he’s on the downside. And this year in a completely restructed offense with a terrible coach he suffered a mild statistica dropoff to 15 and 10 and suddenly the guy is garbage I dotn get it. Especially when Jason Kidd looks completely done on most nights but he gets a free ride. I truly think Kidd is a bit over rated.

  • http://www.hibiahi20.blogspot.com BETCATS

    after all, Jerry was the best combo guard ever, and doesnt define himself as either, but seeing that he was 6-2, i am going with Point Guard.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    I was looking at West’s stats on baskebtall reference and it got me thinking : can we really give props for the rebounding numbers in those days? Jerry West averaged 8 boards a game that in 60-61. 8! At 6’2! The best shooting teams were in the low 40s high 30s, percentage-wise. Wilt pulled down 27 boards a game. Basically what I’m saying it that TONS of shots were missed. I might be blasphemous but maybe we should put Big O’s triple dub season in perspective. Still one of the best players in the history of the game but yeah…

  • http://where-basketball-b-longs.blogspot.com B. Long

    Hi Jukai. Sorry about the delay. I gotta work and stuff.

  • http://www.hibiahi20.blogspot.com BETCATS

    Z, i guess you could say that back then, since their was no 3 point shot the court was not so spaced out which allowed guys to crash the boards way more than today. No permiter defense helped the numbers go up a lot.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Allenp: Wasn’t Pearl more of a shooting guard then a pointman? Well, at least on the Knicks he was…

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Player-wise, Earl the Pearl > Jason Kidd.
    Not counting position.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Also, my man Clyde Frazier was better than Stockton, in my opinion.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Z: You can’t say it like that. Jason Kidd is shorter than Jerry West and he nearly averaged a triple double one season. And Wilt was the most dominant big man ever, so obviously his rebounding was beyond insane.

  • http://fdklf.com Jukai

    I’ll give my list tomorrow. Nash is better than KJ. Lenny Wilkins would be very low on my list (probably 19, 20?) but that’s also mainly because I don’t know him.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    You have very solid basketball knowledge, Jukai but you’re just ridiculous when you talk about Nash. Get off the man’s d!ck. He’s 14 and 8 with ATROCIOUS defense for his career. KJ is 18 and 9. How can you look at that and say that Nash is better? 3 consecutive seasons of 20-10 (missing the 4th season by .3 pts) Come on, man. This is not even debatable.

  • http://fdklf.com Jukai

    First off, KJ took two more shots on average than Nash over his career, making up for those 4 points. He also played three more minutes in a game over his career than Nash, giving him three more minutes every game to get an assist. If you look at both their stats at a 36 minute clip, there is literally almost know difference between the two.
    Secondly, KJ scored more cause he shot more. Yes, he did average 20-10, that’s great, he did it on a lesser clip than Nash and, while we’re on that school of thought, was probably the one of the worst three-point shooters at the one in the history of western civilization. He couldn’t lead his team successfully and needed an overweight, undersized power forward to get anywhere in the playoffs, and he was so injury prone, he made Nash look like Iron Man.
    If my point guard list centered around dunking over Hakeem Olajuon, I guarantee, Johnson would be WAY up there. Since it doesn’t, six time NBA all-star, six time all-NBA Steve Nash goes over Most Improved Player Kevin Johnson.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    There are so many holes and sophisms in your argumentation that I’ll just end the discussion right there.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@getalife.com Allenp

    Jukai
    You need to look at KJ’s numbers again.
    And KJ went to the Finals with Charles Barkely. Nash didn’t with Amare.
    And the fact that Nash has more accolades than KJ doesn’t mean he’s better, it just means the league is different now. Look at KJ’s numbers, think about his scoring, WITHOUT, a three point shot. KJ was wicked nice. Was he injury prone and a little soft, yeah, but he was still a beast.

  • http://fdklf.com Jukai

    Z: …because you can’t argue it properly? You haven’t made any argument except throw stats at me, have you ever freaking watched Kevin Johnson play? Are you even old enough? You don’t seem to know anything about him besides knowing he averaged twenty and ten by taking one hundred more shots than Nash. Idiot. I hate people who take that dumb way out. “WELL YOUR ARGUMENT IS SOOOOO DUMB I CAN’T— ER, WONT EVEN RESPOND.”
    Just admit you haven’t seen him play and move on. Jesus christ.
    Allenp: Thanks for throwing in a legit argument. Look, I’m not saying there’s NO ARGUMENT to say that Nash > KJ or KJ > Nash. Of course there is. Kevin Johnson was downright beastly the beginning of his career. The dude was like Rondo in his slashing but twice as smart with who he dropped off the rock to.
    I just have watched both, and I think Nash is better. Pure skill? I’ll give it to KJ. Factor in leadership and tempo control and making the team better? Nash edges KJ.
    Yes it’s impressive that KJ could drop 20 without an outside shot, but he shot a helluva lot more. His passes were damn nice, but he didn’t really lead his team and control the tempo the way Nash did. And Amare is NO Barkley, matter of factly, the old Phoenix team is superior to any other team the 2000-era Phoenix has had. Plus the league isn’t that different to discredit Nash’s accolades… the MVP’s, maybe, but not the all-teams and all-star appearances.
    I was also thinking of claiming foul on San Antonio saying that Phoenix deserved to go to the NBA Finals, but I’d figure you have had enough of that =)
    One again though, thank you for legitly debating me and not just taking the poor man’s route out like Z did.

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