And Kobe takes over late.
Andddd, I’m wishing it was Friday. The earliest I’ve gone to sleep this week was just before 5 a.m. Yikes. I was thinking about being in university and pulling all-nighters and have been wondering why I’ve been getting tired and then it hit me. All-nighters happen every few weeks, or during exam periods. Not every night, consecutively for the better part of six months. Still, I wouldn’t have it any other way. Just, be patient with me if I call people the wrong name, like, say, Troy Murphy being called Mike Dunleavy. Yup, did that yesterday. I think it happened because I was watching the Clips/Cavs and was wishing I could be inside Coach Dunleavy’s head as Zach shot that three.
Antonio McDyess with 21 points… and a career-high 22 rebounds. We are in a time-warp. That’s crazy.
Damn Rockets and Lakers were running up and down the court so fast I was having a hard time keeping up. The Lakers ended up taking the game 102-96.
@jeskeets summed it up perfectly on Twitter when he said, “Artest and Kobe talkin’ trash is the perfect example of why I’d pay $59.99/month extra for ‘Mic’d Up NBA League Pass’.”
In the fourth quarter of the LA/Houston game, with the Lakers up two, Kobe took exception to Artest guarding him tightly and threw a little shove. Crazy move against a guy like Artest. Ron got into his face and everyone quickly separated things with memories from the Palace flooding my mind. Ron was great, and the hero was Kyle Lowry who got into Ron’s face and reminded him that they needed him on the floor. He and Kobe were both given double-technicals and from that point, one player soared and the other faltered.
Can you guess who soared?
Kobe finished with 37 points and 6 assists as he led the Lakers in the fourth and hit some daggers late to close out the game. Ron had a tough night, but his Rockets played a great game, especially with Yao being strangely quiet in the second half after starting out strong. It was fun watching Scola/Yao/Pau go at it and Josh Powell was solid for LA. In the start he had 17 points and 9 rebounds. Yao finished with 16 points as Scola added 15 and 9. Aaron Brooks is a tough guy out there on the floor. He had a ridiculous three as he was fouled by Derek Fisher to keep the Rockets in the game and then hit the free-throw to complete the three point play. Brooks finished with 14 points on the night. Von Wafer stuck it to the Lakers, his former team, and dropped in 20 points, including four big ones down the stretch.
The frustrating thing about this game for the Rockets is, they had it. They were up by 11 at the half, and then threw it away in the third when the Lakers went on a 20-6 run to close the third quarter. The fourth one was as good as any that I’ve seen this season. Back and forth, but the Lakers just had that little extra, that comes when you’ve got Kobe on your squad.
Big win for the Lakers without LO. Big game from the Rockets as they proved to me they could take some of the other teams in the West if they get the right situation in the playoffs.
And, if we’re keeping track the Rockets announcers have Kobe as their MVP. I’m just saying. This race is getting better by the day.
This may be the best NBA article I’ve read all year. Please, please, please check it out. It’s also by one of the best NBA journalists in the business. Jackie MacMullan is just so much better than almost everyone else when it comes to writing about basketball. So many good pieces in this article. Just read it.
Syrcuse won last night against Seton Hall, and Jonny Flynn had himself a great game with 19 points and 11 assists. He is my NCAA guy, now that we are getting oh-so-close to the madness, who is yours? Not the best player, or who you think will be the best when they make it to the L, just the guy you root for more than any other? Which player fires you up and gives you something new to appreciate each time you watch them play?
I’ve still got Flynn’s steal, bucket and free throw from the game against Marquette on my mind.
Can we please start a petition asking Doc Rivers to play Leon Powe more, even when KG and Davis return? He had 23 and 13 last night and he produces every time he’s in the game. I’ve been singing this song for awhile now. Let it be, Doc. It’s time.
Chris Paul had 30 points, 10 rebounds and 13 assists in a 109-98 win over the Wizards last night. Jones said it yesterday, and it’s true. LeBron had a triple-double Tuesday night and it wasn’t really fawned over yesterday. He really is that good. Crazy.
Laker fans, NBA fans and those who enjoy listening to Phil Jackson: Check this article from Dave McMenamin over at NBA.com. Some nice anecdotes from Phil, including a few I’d never heard him say before. Phil’s the best.
One more link for today, although this one will grab your heart. Scott Fowler speaks with Rodney Rogers about the accident that has left him paralyzed from the shoulders down. The part that got my eyes misty,” He wants you to know his story. He wants you to understand that he has not lost his faith. Or his hope.” A beautiful soul inside that man, to go along with a resolve and a strength that is unbreakable. Thoughts and prayers continue to go out to Rogers, his fiancee and family.
Toronto lost 115-106 in Philly and there isn’t really a story to report there, other than they gave up 67 points over the final two quarters. Yuck. Thaddeus Young had himself a big night with 29 points as Samuel Dalembert had 19 points and 13 boards. Andrea Bargnani had 20 points for the Raptors and Pops Mensah-Bonsu continued to impress on the glass as he led the team with 8 boards in 17 minutes of action.
Orlando killed Chicago, 107-79 as the Bulls shot only 31% for the night. Tony Battie had 18 points and 8 rebounds to lead the Magic as the starters sat for most of the second half and Dwight Howard had 15 points and 9 boards. Courtney Lee added 14 points. John Salmons had 18 points for the Bulls as Derrick Rose and Ben Gordon combined to shoot only 3-22 from the floor.
Denver took down OKC 112-99 and it was Renaldo Balkman who helped the Nuggets stay in front to end a three-game losing streak. Balkman was given the start and finished with 14 points and 14 rebounds to compliment 22 points from Carmelo Anthony and 17 points and 9 assists from Chauncey Billups. The Thunder were led by Jeff Green’s 19 points, Earl Watson’s 18 off of the bench and 13 from Russell Westbrook.
Golden State grabbed the 116-112 victory over the Nets last night, surviving a late push from the Nets as Vince Carter hit a three-pointer to bring the Nets within two, 112-110 with 16 seconds remaining. After free throws from Jamal Crawford, Devin Harris missed a three and then Crawford sealed the game with more free throws in a game that saw Monta Ellis make his return to the floor. Ellis and Crawford each had 19 points as Stephen Jackson led the way with 29 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists. Harris led NJ with 31 points 9 assists and 7 rebounds while Vince Carter and Brook Lopez each added 14 points apiece in the loss.
Miami 107 Boston 99
You can tell from his face that Dwyane Wade lives for hitting the game clinching shot. After doing just that in dramatic fashion on Monday night, Wade was able to deliver the final blow to the Celtics last night as his three-pointer with 34 seconds remaining nailed the coffin on Boston to give them their second straight loss. After leading by five at the break, the shorthanded Celtics were helpless against Miami, getting outscored 32-18 in the third. A 16-2 run by the Celtics got them back into the game down the stretch, but Wade refused to allow them the victory as he scored eight points in the final four minutes of the game, including five straight to keep his guys in front.Wade finished with 32 points and 7 assists as Jamario Moon scored 13 to go with 8 rebounds and Jermaine O’Neal added 12. The Celtics were led by Ray Allen with 27 points as Leon Powe had 23 points and 13 rebounds and Paul Pierce added 16 in the loss. The Celtics are now two games behind the Cavs in the race for homecourt.
New York 116 Detroit 111 OT
During my liveblog I couldn’t really watch other games, but thanks to Russ, I did flip to the end of regulation for the Knicks and Pistons and saw Larry Hughes get fouled while attempting a three-pointer. Hughes made all of the free throws to tie the game with 10 seconds remaining and the Pistons screwed themselves out of a final play by losing the ball out of bounds. The Knicks couldn’t convert either and they went into overtime where things stayed close until midway through where the Knicks started to pull away. A huge long two from QRich (that he thought was a three), sealed the game for the Knicks. Nate Robinson scored 30 off of the bench. David Lee had 16 points and 18 rebounds and Hughes added 22. Antonio McDyess had a huge game for the Pistons, with 21 points and 22 rebounds. The rebounds were a career-high. Rip Hamilton scored 27 points to go with 9 rebounds and 5 assists, but he also had 8 turnovers. Rodney Stuckey had 23 points to go with 8 rebounds and 8 assists and TayShaun Prince added 25 points and 10 rebounds.
Dallas 93 Portland 89
The Mavs found themselves in a close one against the Blazers one night after their big win against the Suns. While they outscored Portland 30-19 in the second quarter to take a lead going into the second half, Portland fought back and cut the lead to only two points early in the fourth. With an ailing Brandon Roy there wasn’t a shortage of Blazers to step up, but just when it appeared they may be able to take over the game, as Travis Outlaw used his length to steal the ball from Jason Kidd, rather than scoring as they trailed by two with less than a minute to go, they turned the ball over. On the following possession, Dirk Nowitzki rose and drained a jumper to put the Mavs up four with 17 seconds remaining. After another miss from Portland, the Mavs went up six thanks to two free throws from Brandon Bass, and even a three from Travis Outlaw to cut the lead down to three wasn’t enough for the Blazers. Dirk finished with 29 points and 10 boards, Jason Terry added 24 off of the bench, Erick Dampier added 12 points and 9 rebounds and Jason Kidd added 7 points, 10 rebounds and 10 assists. LaMarcus Aldridge led the Blazers with 23 points and 15 rebounds, Brandon Roy scored 22 points, Joel Przybila added 9 point and 15 boards and Travis Outlaw added 20 off of the bench.
Atlanta 100 Utah 93
The Utah Jazz knew that eventually their winning streak would come to an end, they just weren’t ready for it to be last night. Falling to the Hawks, 100-93, the Jazz trailed 55-42 at the half, but were able to make a run in the third to take a two-point 75-73 lead into the final quarter. This is where the magic would end for Utah as they were outscored 27-18 in the fourth and were unable to score from the floor for the final five minutes of the game. While a shot from Mehmet Okur put the Jazz up 89-87 with 5:01 remaining, the Jazz wouldn’t hit another field goal as Joe Johnson scored on a short jumper to the Hawks the lead for good. Johnson finished with 31 points and 9 assists for the Hawks as Josh Smith scored 22 points to go with 12 rebounds and Al Horford added 13 points and 12 rebounds. Deron Williams had 20 points and 9 assists for the Jazz in the loss as Okur finished with 14 points and 10 rebounds and Paul Millsap added 16 off of the bench.
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“DON’T LEAVE YOUR FEET ON A PERSON ATTEMPTING A 3!!!”
A few plays before that, somebody, I think Artest, tried a post entry pass to yao that was easily stolen because: 1. Yao didn’t adequately seal his man on the bounce pass. 2: YOU DON’T THROW BOUNCE PASSES TO PEOPLE WHO ARE 7′6″!
That is basic basketball. You always try to throw the ball up high to your big man because it’s easier for them follow the flight of the ball, and it’s easier for them seal their man. You only throw it low when there is extreme defensive pressure on the passer that prevents a lob pass, or if it’s a drop off in the lane. Yao may be soft, but his team throws some of the WORST post entry passes in the damn league.
The media was unfair to Kobe, so they should be unfair to Wade?
That’s some horrible logic right there.
PS: Saw you pic over on the Score, and dare I say: Cute.
But, I can’t just blame the media. Most people in the general public thought Nash, and even Dirk, were worthy of being MVP. It hasn’t been until now that the backlash has truly kicked up.
I just reject the logic that Wade can’t be considered because Kobe couldn’t get a sniff when he had the Lakers competing.
And Eboy, I know Kobe was 7th and 8th in the conferene those years but that was in a stacked Western Conference and his teammates were clearly inferior to Wade’s, top to bottom.
Finally, I actually want the media to vote for Wade. That will expose their bias towards Nash and against Kobe even more in my opinion. Everybody can see that used a totally different standard to evaluate Kobe than they have used for everybody else.
The media did choose LeBron before the season started but they do that every year. It’s called predicitions. My question is : doesn’t he deserve it? They’re tied for the best record in the L and it’s all because of him.
A and B have virtually identical stats. A has his team sitting on top of the L while B’s team is in the middle of the pack. It seems logical to me that A would be the favorite for the MVP. I’m just saying…
Myung February was just a brutal month, but I’ve always maintained way too much optimism for the Hawks. That won’t change. How are you feeling about Josh these days?
We’re all intelligent and saavy enough to be able to determine whether somebody is a good player putting up great stats because his teammates are crappy, or if a guy is just a great player whose team record is being held down by crappy teammates.
Now, I don’t think the MVP should come from squads that are horrible, but I don’t think you have to be a TOP team to be considered.
I prefer the argument that Lebron made in the article Holly linked to. He said when you look at squad, you should ask yourself, if a particular guy was removed, what would that team be like, and could the attributes that player provides be provided fairly well by someone else.
Now, I think that back when Kobe had wack teammates, he was clearly taking every other team’s best shot and still dominating on a level not seen since Iverson or Jordan in their scoring primes. Kobe was unreal those two years and he was doing it on a team where nobody else was a dependable scorer. And they still won 40+ games!
Wade isn’t killing on the same level as Kobe as far as scoring, but his overall game is on the same level. His passing is insane, his defense is sublime. Same thing with Lebron and Chris Paul. Those four guys are obviously driving their teams, and in the case of Paul and especially Wade, they are having success with subpar talent. The Heat have two rookies in their main rotation!
-
COY- Spoelstra
ROY- Brook Lopez
6th Man- Can Beasley win it as a rookie? Jet Terry, more than likely
DPOY- Howard
I think that if you look at a team’s overall record you are obviously factoring in their teammates, only you’re giving them a boost for having better teammates.
We all know that a single player cannot create championships in the League. You need other horses. So, we all know that being viewed as a contender is a byproduct of having a well-rounded team with good teammates.
I think that creating this criteria that your team has to be ELITE before you can be considered MVP is ridiculous because there can only be a handful of elite teams in the league.
I think you’re team should be GOOD and you as an individual player have to be transcendent. I think that works better.
I think it’s still the season though, so I think it’s still Lebron’s to win.
Thank GOD Chris Paul didn’t get MVP last year, even though he deserved it. With the way his squad is playing and all, it woulda been really embarrassing!
I’ll refer you to the year Moses Malone won with a sub-.500 record.
But, I understand you’re point. It’s just a matter of preference, and I’ve stated my preference, which is purely subjective.
The Hornets are playing pretty well considering the injuries they’ve had and David West’s subpart performance.
I can’t even call ROY. I’ll admit I’m partial to Westbrook and Brook Lopez, Gordon needed to stay healthy to sustain the momentum he had and Lopez has been a bit inconsistent, especially recently. I just think Rose and Mayo were over hyped early and while they started hot they’ve both really fallen back to earth. The more I think about it, I like Brook as a surprise winner, but it won’t happen. Sadly, I’m seeing a Rose-Mayo CoROY.
Bob McAdoo, Bill Walton, Karl Malone, Allen Iverson (don’t argue with me here, what’s fair is fair), Steve Nash, Dirk No-Win-Ski!
I was going to say Kobe should too, but apparently the SLAM consensus (which is non-media, because all the media thinks identically and they are all biased) was that he actually won it in 2005-2006, so I guess he should keep it and Chris Paul should be given one of the returned ones.
Also, Lebron should never win one because if he does, it’s because Stern/the Media/Someone who is in high power and evil/Ryan Jones likes Lebron, and not because he actually won it.
You’re going to have to explain that Iverson pick to me. You know that?
Best record in the East, lead the league in scoring, and all while having mediocre talent. Sounds like D-Wade this year to me.
So his MVP was a sham.
And he should return it.
Just like Dirk and Nash.
Like I said earlier, if you base the award on team record, you’re punishing players for having crapy teammates and GMs.
I don’t see the argument that considering teammates rewards guys on poor teams. Everybody who watches ball knows when somebody is putting up legit numbers and when they are just going for dolo on a wack squad.
I think limiting the argument to legit contenders is a way too confining. I think in any given year there are only two, or three teams that are legit contenders. Occassionally it’s four. However, there are typically five to six players whose play is so amazing that could be considered MVP.
I’ve always preferred the argument about MVP being the best player in the league, who also manages to have some team success.
I think that if no one can make a legitimate argument that you are the best player in the league, then you don’t deserve to be MVP. That’s why I had a problem with Dirk’s MVP and Nash’s MVP’s. But, that is purely subjective.
(And yes, you could make that argument for Iverson when he won the MVP, Jukai.)
I think Eboy was right about the shape of your logic.
Iverson led his team to the Finals. They then went to the playoffs the next two years, if I’m not mistaken. He then put up 30 and 7 for three years, while making the playoffs one of those years with Chris Webber as his second banana. During that time period, the other second bananas Iverson had to work with were Toni Kukoc, Matt Harpring and Keith Van Horn.
I don’t see your point at all.
However, the second one was my big problem because I felt like it should have been either Kobe or Lebron.
Damn you for investigating my argument.
I can’t argue with all the holes you picked in my argument. You’re right.
Iverson was far more deserving as MVP.
And, he only had Deke for half the year and the team’s record before they got Deke was better than after. Iverson also had Aaron Mckie, who was pretty good.
Maybe Chris Webber made Iverson better.
Just like Stockton and Sloan made Malone better.
And Devin Harris made Dirk better.
And D’Antoni and Marion made Nash better.
And whoever the hell Bob McAdoo had on his team who somehow managed to get him to score 30 points a game or something.
I don’t really believe anything I’m saying Allenp, I’m really just mocking you.
1) Iverson is a top 5 sg of all time and deserved his MVP, I was mocking Allenp
2) Nash did not deserve his second MVP, but people suddenly seem to HATE HIM for winning the second one while ignoring the fact that he legitly deserved the first (he was a top-5 player in the league that year, get over it).
interesting.
I understand your argument. But, people place a lot of emphasis on whether or not a player has won an MVP.
It was a big deal that Nash was the first point guard to win an MVP since Magic, and that he won two in a row.
The fact that Bird won three in a row, is a big deal for him as well.
MVPs matter because the same people who vote on them also use those awards to decide where a player fits in the history of the League.
Did Isiah ever win an MVP?
Saying Nash is “not quite up there,” is like saying Ron Artest is only a “little crazy.”
That’s what flunkies are for.
I didn’t know Oscar had his triple double season the same year Wilt average 50, and dropped 100. That is awesome.
The moral of that story is NEVER, EVER say anything bad about Larry Bird.
See my Larry Bird comment for clarification.
That’s my gripe really.People placing too much emphasis and taking the OPINIONS(I can’t stress this enough)of a select few with access as gospel.I believe that Nash deserved his MVP.That doesn’t automatically equate to me believing that Nash is better than Isiah Thomas.I think you’re on the money about people looking at MVPs as a basis of deciding where someone fits in the history of the Lig,that’s not right IMO.An MVP award should be there to reward a single season,so someone with an MVP award can easily be a lesser player than someone without one.That’s another problem I have with the whole MVP thing,it being rewarded because of legacy(or body of work)-not necessarily on one season.Kobe absolutely HAD to win last year because it’s clear how important a place in basketball history Kobe already holds and it would be seen as a travesty if he didn’t.
I think people should really actually watch basketball and watch players play to judge what place in history they’ll.Looking merely at awards and honour rolls is the kind of sh*t that’ll get Robert Horry in the HoF.
So, he’s putting up roughly the exact same numbers he put up when he won MVP the first time?
Have you checked Isiah’s early stats? I have, take a look homie.
He changed his game to let Joe Dumars get his and get everybody else shots. But, early on, he was crazy dominant as an individual player.
Isiah and his team’s image weren’t really appreciated back then.
The Pistons had a real swagger about them and they were beating up on the media’s golden team, the Celtics. They might not beat the Celtics, but they beat up on them every time they played.
Plus, Zeke had that me against the world mentality that the media really does not like, then he called them all racists. It was over for him after that. The fact that Isiah didn not make the Dream Team and Chris Mullin and Christian Laettner did is just sad. Even with Jordan against him, that’s sad.
Finally, from what I understand, Isiah was beloved coming out of Indiana, although he caught a little flack for leaving school early. However, after those Larry Bird comments, his image was never the same.
No prob. You’re right, his numbers changed when the team really took off, but that is the way it should work. I understand what you were saying though.
Bryan
You know what get’s overlooked in Nash’s second year? The fact that Shawn Marion tooks his game to another level that season. Look at his stats. Then, look at his numbers from the Clippers series. If I’m not mistaken, he averaged around 23 and 13! With a block a couple steals. That’s crazy. Nobody talks about Marion raising his game, it’s just about Nash “carrying” them.
I’ve always said I understand why Marion was pissed.
His numbers for the season were 21.8 and 11.8.
Look at that.
He also shot 52 percent from the floor, 33 percent from three and 80 percent from the line.
He shouldn’t have been MVP, but damn, the man deserved some props for picking up the slack, right?
He led the team in scoring, rebounding, block and steals, while being second in field goal percentage that year.
I can’t believe you are saying the system made Marion, but it didn’t make Nash.
I think Marion would thrive in ANY fastbreak system, which he did when he had Marbury and Kidd running the one for him. He was putting up 17 and 10 by his SECOND year.
Look, I’m not a big Marion fan, but I think the man’s contributions have been slept on.
That’s because those numbers are CRAZY.
Honestly, if somebody told you that Shawn Marion could average 25.6 and 12.8 while guarding Elton Brand, what would you say? I mean, Brand was still killing him, but come on.
My point was not that Marion was the MVP of his team, but that the media seemed to attribute the increased production of the Suns and their team success to magic of Steve Nash instead of increased production by everyone on the team. If I’m Shawn Marion, that pisses me off.
But, you’re right about Marion only really killing in one series. He didn’t play that well in the other series. Boris Diaw put up 25 a game against the Mavs in the conference Finals that year.
That’s like me saying that Nash is only good if he’s playing with an elite forward in an uptempo style.
Or that Iverson is good only at the off guard.
Well, duh.
Different players have different strengths.
Kareem wasn’t getting out finishing on the break.
And Bill Russell wasn’t camping out in the post.
Does your sarcasm comfort you on those cold lonely nights when you’re watching Steve Nash get butt f(ucked by opposing point guards?
lmao
Just playing.
It doesn’t. It doesn’t at all =(
They were in the playoffs most of his career. I mean, they lost in the playoffs a lot, but they were there.
When have you seen Nash play without an All-Star level forward and still be good? I mean, outside of Santa Clara?
Nor am I saying that Marion is an elite player.
I’m just pointing out that Marion has gotten a rep as being a selfish malcontent, when for years in Phoenix he was a good soldier doing the diry work.
He was the team’s most versatile defender, it’s best rebounder and gave the most consistent effort. He was good with Kidd, with KJ, with Marbury and with Nash. Sure, those are all great players, but they are great in different ways.
I think Marion is limited as a one-on-one scorer, but he’s a great rebounder and he’s great at hustling and getting easy buckets. D’Antoni’s style maximized this, but Marion was doing that before he even met Mike.
Plus, he took his game to another level when Amare was out. Just like Nash.
Really?
I mean, really?
I agree with you that Marion can’t create his own shot.
That doesn’t make him wack.
It just makes him limited. Reggie Miller couldn’t create his own shot either.
Slow the game down and Nash struggles.
Besides, last year you cursed every single piece of the Heat organization up and down… now your mouth is once again so permanently grafted to Wade’s @$$ that I’d need the jaws of life to remove it. What’re you getting at now?
I know you don’t believe me, but I do appreciate Nash’s game. The dude is amazing on offense. Seriously, he is highly skilled, extremely gutsy and just a fun player to watch.
It’s all the other stuff that’s gotten mixed up into his game and what it represents and where it stands in the pantheon of great point guards that has caused me a problem.
I don’t have a problem with Nash. I just want the same standards applied to him that are applied to other players. That’s all.
For example, have any of y’all ever heard Doug Collins criticize Nash for playing poor defense?
I never have. I’ve heard him criticize other players, but I’ve never heard him say a critical word about Nash. Why is that?
In fact, how many announcers say anything critical about Nash’s game? Is he just that perfect?
I just glanced over at a list I made a year ago (I love lists) and I had Nash at “twelve” in terms of all-time point guards. Am I overvaluing him? I can guarentee I’m one of Nash’s biggest fans.
Don’t tell me you don’t have a second/third/fourth favorite team, do you? I love the Suns, but I’ve also always been a huge Cavaliers and Mavericks fan, and recently I’ve been very fond of the Bobcats. Should I write out my favorite teams from favorite to least favorite so in the future this doesn’t happen? Will you save it to your computer and constantly compare it to everything I say?
My list
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Isiah
4. Stockton
5. Walt
6. Payton
7. Kidd
8. Pearl
9. Cousy
10. Tiny
11. KJ
12. Lenny Wilkens
13. Nash
Good catch. In my opinion, Kidd gets too much of a pass for his failure to really become a dependable scorer. He’s still awesome, but he’s been in the league too long to still struggle so much with his shot. I don’t care what his percentages are this year, he’s not a good shooter.
In comparison, Payton came into the league as a bad shooter, made himself dangerous, and basically was the best defender in the league for like five or six years. Now, he doesn’t have the innate passing ability that Kidd does, but he’s more than adequate and he held his own against an all-time great like John Stockton on a regular basis. I like Payton’s swagger more than Kidd’s and I think he’s just overall a better developed player. But, I can see the opposite argument.
I know, I know. I used to have a long running debate with one of my homies about Steve Nash’s place in the pantheon and he was way more delusional than Jukai.
So, I had to go back and start pulling the stats for some of the point guards I remembered from my youth. That’s how I learned exactly how dominant Payton was and how raw KJ and Mark Price were. I was tempted to put Price over Nash, but the injuries limited him.
Who else is putting up 22-24 a game with 8-12 assists for three or four years straight?
Kidd never did that. Even Nash has never done that, although he’s gotten close.
And both of them put up those numbers without being great three point shootes. Hell, KJ didn’t even shoot threes. You add in Payton’s otherwordly defense, the man did a credible job on Jordan, well come on.
Not counting position.
Secondly, KJ scored more cause he shot more. Yes, he did average 20-10, that’s great, he did it on a lesser clip than Nash and, while we’re on that school of thought, was probably the one of the worst three-point shooters at the one in the history of western civilization. He couldn’t lead his team successfully and needed an overweight, undersized power forward to get anywhere in the playoffs, and he was so injury prone, he made Nash look like Iron Man.
If my point guard list centered around dunking over Hakeem Olajuon, I guarantee, Johnson would be WAY up there. Since it doesn’t, six time NBA all-star, six time all-NBA Steve Nash goes over Most Improved Player Kevin Johnson.
You need to look at KJ’s numbers again.
And KJ went to the Finals with Charles Barkely. Nash didn’t with Amare.
And the fact that Nash has more accolades than KJ doesn’t mean he’s better, it just means the league is different now. Look at KJ’s numbers, think about his scoring, WITHOUT, a three point shot. KJ was wicked nice. Was he injury prone and a little soft, yeah, but he was still a beast.
Just admit you haven’t seen him play and move on. Jesus christ.
Allenp: Thanks for throwing in a legit argument. Look, I’m not saying there’s NO ARGUMENT to say that Nash > KJ or KJ > Nash. Of course there is. Kevin Johnson was downright beastly the beginning of his career. The dude was like Rondo in his slashing but twice as smart with who he dropped off the rock to.
I just have watched both, and I think Nash is better. Pure skill? I’ll give it to KJ. Factor in leadership and tempo control and making the team better? Nash edges KJ.
Yes it’s impressive that KJ could drop 20 without an outside shot, but he shot a helluva lot more. His passes were damn nice, but he didn’t really lead his team and control the tempo the way Nash did. And Amare is NO Barkley, matter of factly, the old Phoenix team is superior to any other team the 2000-era Phoenix has had. Plus the league isn’t that different to discredit Nash’s accolades… the MVP’s, maybe, but not the all-teams and all-star appearances.
I was also thinking of claiming foul on San Antonio saying that Phoenix deserved to go to the NBA Finals, but I’d figure you have had enough of that =)
One again though, thank you for legitly debating me and not just taking the poor man’s route out like Z did.
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