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Friday, December 17th, 2010 at 8:40 am  |  231 responses

Post Up: A Man Alive

Ginobili’s heroics lead the Spurs over the Nuggets.

by Adam Figman | @afigman

New Jersey 97, Washington 89

With John Wall sidelined, Devin Harris went to town. He didn’t shoot well from the field (7-25), but he got to the line 17 times, converting 14, and finished with 29 points and 9 dimes as he led the Nets to the W. The victory snapped an eight-game losing streak, and was the sixth-straight loss for the Wiz, who fell to 6-18. And things aren’t getting any easier; Washington has Miami at home tomorrow night. Should be fun.

Boston 102, Atlanta 90

The Rondo-less Celts went against the Joe Johnson-less Hawks, and simply put, Boston got a stronger effort from those that were healthy than Atlanta did. Ain’t much more to it. Every starting Celtic (plus Big Baby) scored in double figures, while, strangely enough, the only Hawks that go going were Marvin Williams (26 points) and Jeff Teague (18 points). That wasn’t cutting it—nor was Josh Smith’s 1 point off 0-8 shooting or Al Horford’s 8-point, 7-rebound night. Jamal Crawford, who’s been great in Johnson’s absence, was out with a sore back, and that certainly didn’t help the road team’s cause at all. Boston’s winning streak is now at 12, and there’s no reason it’ll slow down with home games against the Pacers and the Sixers in the next few days. So, that momentum thing really works.

San Antonio 113, Denver 112

First of all, THIS:

(H/T: @blazersedge for both vids in this post.)

Woah. I just ripped my shirt off, which means I need to hurry this recap up because it’s cold as hell in here. Those who stayed up late last night were treated to another great TNT matchup (after a bunch of stinkers, those national TV games are starting to pick up, huh?) between two West Coast powerhouses. The Spurs have been incredible—like, They might be the best team in the League incredible—but the Nugs stayed with them, matching their every move as the contest went down to the wire. With seven seconds remaining, down one, San Antonio ran an in-bounds play and found Manu Ginobili—fresh off destroying the Bucks with a buzzer-beating game-winner—who put in a runner on the left side of the lane to give the Spurs the lead with four ticks remaining. (God damn, how clutch is this dude?) Anyway, the clock approaching zero, Carmelo Anthony (who scored 31 points and grabbed 9 boards total) drove to the hole and drilled a floater in the lane…FOR THE WIN! But, no. (This feels familiar.) Melo also drilled Manu, who beat the Nuggets’ forward to the spot in the paint and drew a charge as time expired. The refs put 0.4 seconds back on the clock, and the Spurs inbounded the ball cleanly, sealing it up. It’s always a tough, bound-to-be controversial move to blow the whistle—for a charge, of all things—to determine the fate of an entire game, so some disagreement on the call is inevitable. I made the video the MOTN below, so peep it and let me know what you think. Call me crazy, but it looks like Manu got there and that it was a great decision by the ref. Your thoughts?

Actual StatsTim Duncan: 28 points, 14 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal.

Moment of the Night:

Alright folks, I’m out. Judging by the amount of comments that have been pouring in, it’s been a hell of a week for pro basketball, meaning this job is easier and more exciting than ever. I don’t know if you’ve read about it, or saw it on TV, or heard about it on the radio, or talked about it with your grandmother, but there’s this game on ESPN tonight that you should probably check out. I’d recommend looking it up on the Internets if you haven’t been paying attention—you won’t be disappointed. (Google “basketball” or something.) But for real, enjoy the fun, SLAM Fam. See ya Monday.

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  • Mike from Spain

    Manu is killing it, what did they give to these Spurs to drink? They look like … 5 years younger

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Where’s the morons that were saying the Spurs ain ‘t for real? Oh wait, that’s the rest of the normal commenters. Forget it.

  • JTaylor21

    Great plays down the stretch by Manu and TD was looking like the 01 TD again but what has me confused is how can the refs swallow their whistle 2 nights earlier on the blatant travel by manu vs the bucks but call a charge on melo last night? It makes no sense, everyone that plays ball knows that there’s probably a foul on every play and that being a ref is one of the hardest jobs but the least they can be is consistent. You can’t swallow your whistle one night and blow it the next.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Wayno

    One more ring for Timmy D please…

  • Bruno

    if spurs and lakers meet in the western finals is gonna be a hell of a series

  • Bruno

    can’t wait for NY-Mia

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    NY – MIA & NO – UTAH tonight. Gonna be some good basketball.

  • hoodsnake

    Thanks Adam I will check my PC when I get home. Oh and nice dunk JR

  • vtrobot

    2nd what JT said. The inconsistent calls are really puzzling. I was think that, despite the fact that manu clearly traveled, there is no ref who would ever make that call, at that point, in SA. I would have said the same thing about that Melo charge, but WTF do I know? I can’t figure out the refereeing at all.

  • http://bluefont.com Hisham

    Ginoooooobli is a fcking badass.. that charge was totally legit, which i didn’t expect it to be given his reputation as a world class flopper. wouldn’t have been fair if he won two games in a row cheating

  • http://bluefont.com Hisham

    while I do understand the general complaint about inconcistency with NBA refs, but don’t compare a no-call (probably a missed call, there’s a difference)on a travel by different refs a night earlier to a charge call (which was absolutely legit) today. it has no merit

  • JTaylor21

    It has merit because one ref swallowed his whistle on a obvious travel that decided the game while the other called a obvious charge that decided another game. If the ref would have called a travel on gino, I wouldn’t have a prob today on the legit charge call but when there’s inconsistency that’s when I have a problem.

  • http://www.slamonline.com KulchaKris

    And E-Grinch is back!! I would caution people (*cough E-Boy cough*)to wait until the All-Star break before making any proclamations regarding who the contenders are. As a Washingtonian, born and raised, it’s been a tough sports year (Dead-Skins, Nationals suck, Capitals 7-game losing streak, and the Wizards). Our #1 overall pick spends more time off the court than on it, and the team’s defense is softer than wet tissue paper. Now, here come the Heat! Should be fun…

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    Carmelo should get that call at this point in the game.

  • http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/ Anthony

    Tim and TP kept us in the game when Manu was struggling (1 for 8 before entering the 4th) but the boxscore wont show what he did in the 4th, he was just amazing. In 2 weeks we’re playing OKC,LA,Dallas,NY,Boston, all in row, it should be interesting.

  • Flud

    What Hisham said.

  • http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/ Jukai

    JTaylor: You do know that different refs play different games right? That ref who called the charge on Melo probably woulda called the travel on Manu.

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Clearly a charge by Melo…Is Manu in the MVP discussion now?

  • http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/ Jukai

    Anyway, can we just skip the games yesterday and talk about how amazing it’s going to be tonight?!?!
    Bosh vs Amare!
    Paul vs Williams!
    Nash vs Dirk!
    Plus, Kobe and Durant playing crapping enough teams with weak backcourt defenders that they may very well go off for 50.
    I wish I had slept within the last 25 hours though.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Kris….it’s odd that the Lakers get a pass for losing 7 games (as if that’s some huge total) but the Spurs are cruising, beating good teams all over the place and they can’t be considered a contender? Get the fu*k out of here. Their core consists of multiple champions. Their coach is one of the top three in the game. They’re healthy. They have solid team chemistry. If anything, at the moment, THEY should be the favorites in the West. Plain and Simple.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    Manu’s feet weren’t completely set, and he was off balance on the tip of his toes. That was a grey area call, and Carmelo should have got it, not Manu Ginobili.

  • http://www.twitter.com/JoshElam JE

    There’s something awesome about a 33 year old averaging a career-high in minutes per game.

  • vtrobot

    @ jukai: really? i thought it was the same three dudes flying all over the place to every game. all of the refs need to get on the same page. it did look like a charge, i just can’t ever remember a game ending on an offensive foul call.

  • http://nicekicks.com Meloman2.0

    @ Jukai: well the ref who called charge on Melo was reffing this game… and didnt call the travel on manu so…
    It was a good play, but who the hell takes a charge at the buzzer, this guy is such a prick

  • vtrobot

    big baby is going to win game 7 of the finals, in LA, by taking a charge. (insert what The Seed would say)!

  • http://slamonline.com Ben Osborne

    Adam, you know a thing or two about this Ginobili guy, don’t you?

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ Diesel

    Eboy – they are contenders now. That doesn’t mean they will be later. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I personally think their age will catch up to them. I also think one of their big 3 will get injured. I also don’t think they have the bigs to compete with LA or Utah. On top of that, if all it takes to be considered a contender in your eyes is beating a Denver team without Billups and Martin by 2, then you have very low standards.

  • http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/ Jukai

    Meloman: if that’s true, then as a Suns fan, I have several reasonable predictions about that ref’s affiliations.

  • http://www.slamonline.com KulchaKris

    @Eboy, all you say is very true. The Lakers are given a pass for losing 7 games because they’ve been to the Finals 3 years in a row, winning twice, with basically the same core squad. One might reasonably argue that they have a better team this year than last. So most fans and talking heads assume they’ll be there in the end. My previous cautionary post applies to those people as well. I’m not saying the Spurs aren’t a force to be reckoned with, just saying the season is long, and things change.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ Diesel

    And before everyone goes attacking me, I think the Spurs are playing very good basketball right now. I think they’re one of the top 3 teams right now. I just don’t think they’ll maintain it.

  • http://www.slamonline.com KulchaKris

    Also E, your comment about losing 7 games (it’s not that many) is spot on. Unless my math is incorrect, 19-7 projects to a 60-22 record, which is good by any standard. Not the 73-9 record some people predicted for the Heat, but still pretty decent.

  • http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/ Anthony

    Co-sign Eboy, btw Kobe said almost the same thing a week ago: “The last couple of years they’ve had to deal with injuries all year long. But now they’re healthy. Tim (Duncan) looks great. They have incredible coaching. All those guys know their roles. There’s no question about them. … They’ve been this way for a decade. Fans continue to be surprised, but they’re not sneaking up on us.”

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ Diesel

    Amen KulchKris – everyone seems so shocked by people giving the Lakers slack. When you’re the 2 time defending champion, you get the entire season as benefit of the doubt. They’ve earned it.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Diesel, I know, the Spurs will not be as competitive in the playoffs like the Bulls will. I get it.

  • S-Mills

    Agreed with iamorangeforever. Manu looked off balance, his upper body was still moving, his one foot wasnt totally planted and he’s a known flopper. After everything I still believe in close game situations like these refs should put their whistles down and just let the players play the game.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I can’t believe I actually wrote a comment that was almost exactly what Kobe said in an interview situation about the Spurs. This is horrible.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ Diesel

    Eboy – I didn’t say anything about the Bulls. I appreciate you trying to use your mystical spin on my comment, but it won’t work. I’m talking about the Spurs and Spurs only.

  • MUBWAR

    So Lakers are on top of the power ranking. Who votes for this sh!t. The top Four should be 1. Spurs, 2.Heat 3.Celtics and Lakers at the 4 spot.

  • http://bluefont.com Hisham

    @vtrobot: i know it doesn’t happen often, but it CAN and DOES happen. you seem to imply that charge calls shouldn’t be made at the end of games, which is ridiculous

  • Bruno

    mubwar heat before celtics?? that can’t happen at least until Miami beats Boston

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    The Spurs are playing really good. I’ve been trying to keep ‘em down but it looks like they can no longer be denied. I’ve always been a fan of a healthy Manu, so let’s hope it stays that way. As far as contenders, everybody will probably think I’m crazy, I still think OKC might be the most dangerous to LA. I still don’t see LA losing to anyone, honestly. I only see Boston and the Heat as REAL threats to LA, but ofcourse that’s Finals stuf…

  • http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/ Jukai

    I know a lot can happen in the season, but let’s not mince words: If the Spurs and Lakers played a seven game series today, the Spurs would win in five.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    The Heat ain’t above the Celtics. No damn way. Unless they whip the sh*t out of the Celtics next time they play, they have a Celtic stigma planted firmly in the middle of their flaming ball logo.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Not trying to sleep on the Spurs, but I just think they can sustain this play for the entire season plus playoffs.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    CAN’T Dammit.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    @Eboy ‘they have a Celtic stigma planted firmly in the middle of their flaming ball logo’ lol. Í think the C’s will beat the Heat in the playoffs, even though I know the Heat are in a process where they’re getting better and better. C’s are too deep and too good right now with this roster. What do you think about a Celtics – Heat matchup in the playoffs, who’s winning?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Well, no sh*t. They’ll probably wind up with a win total in the low 60′s as they level off later in the season……but….if they are healthy come April/May you doubters can come clean then.

  • vtrobot

    @ Hisham: it does? please send me some links where an offensive foul call ended another NBA game. i’m not talking about a call like the one on melo in NY with 30 or whatever seconds left recently (which is pretty rare too). i’m talking about last play of the game, clock winding down, offensive foul, buzzer. that’s literally the first time i can remember that happening. it’s like a 3 second call happening at the end of a game or a ref calling the 10-second free throw violation. there are some rules that are never followed. the L should come out today and apologize and say that it was actually a blocking foul (kidding). i just want refereeing consistency for x-mas. peace.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Ok Eboy. If you think the 30 something spurs can win a chip with Tim Duncan putting up 14 and 9, good luck with that.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ Diesel

    If the Spurs make it to the WCF I’ll apologize to all the Spurs fans for ever doubting them.

  • http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/ Jukai

    vtrobot: uhhh, the offensive foul call gave the Spurs .4 seconds left on the clock, and they threw it in and ran out the clock. By definition, an offensive foul CANNOT run out the clock, because once the clock reaches 0, you can’t call an offensive foul, and the clock stops immediately on an offensive foul.
    So you’re right, it has never happened and will never happen.

  • ripslam

    That foul was unnecessary considering he literally just flopped. If it was a genuine offensive foul I could understand but Manu being Manu does not deserve a game-deciding foul. Melo got robbed.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    Bottom line, the ref should have swallowed his whistle. The ball goes in, the Nuggets win, the ball doesn’t go in, the Spurs win. Instead, he blew his little whistle on a grey area call, and gave it to a well known flopper who wasn’t completely set.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    I agree with IAMORANGE, I don’t think any grey area calls should be made on deciding plays. Especially a 50 – 50 one like block/charge. That should of been a no call.

  • http://brimartin13@gmail.com Brion

    His feet were set , he took the charge plain and simple, good call by the refs.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Oh and Jukai I can’t wait for Bosh v Amare and CP3 v D Will, especially as there has been a lot of debate going on about those guys. For the record, CP3 is the league leader in PER, 2 points above D Will who is sixth. Amare is 6th, Chris Bosh 42nd.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Amare is 9th***

  • hillbilly

    @vtrobot “big baby is going to win game 7 of the finals, in LA, by taking a charge.” You, sir, are hilarious. But, seriously. F@ck all the haters…Big Baby for Sixth Man of the Year!!!

  • Bruno

    Deron usually plays better than Paul when they meet each other and can’t wait for an Amare dunk on Bosh

  • da truff

    manu did not travel read the rule book he took his two steps. The second step can be a jumpstop. melo charged you can be on your tip toes you have to square up and not be laterly moving. This is slam mag you would think the readers would now the rules to the sport they enjoy so much

  • da truff
  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    This season, Deron Williams is leading Chris Paul and the entire NBA in offensive win shares with 3.2. Chris Paul’s retort to that is to lead the NBA in PER (27.0), steal percentage (4.9 percent), total win shares (4.5), and win shares per 48 minutes (.288). Even at Deron Williams’s best, Chris Paul is better.

    With the exception of block percentage, over their careers, Chris Paul is leading Deron Williams in every advanced statistical category. To understand just how much more valuable Chris Paul has been to his teams than Deron Williams has been to his, remember that Paul leads Williams in career win shares by 23.0 despite playing in 43 fewer games.

    Chris Paul is more than just the NBA’s best point guard and a superior player to Deron Williams; he should be regarded as one of the two or three best players in the league. Anything less than that is to do him a disservice.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    There not my words btw.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Wayno

    I can’t wait for Amare to own Bosh…

  • crybabies

    TWO refs called the OFFENSIVE FOUL.. Watch the replay. That’s hard to contest. Great job by Melo to take it strong to the hole. That was a well-designed defensive play. The Spurs know that Carmelo is so hard to stop when you meet him in the air, especially in the closing moments where he is so efficient, but Melo as said by the TNT commentators, put his head down, took it strong to RJ, and did not expect Manu to be at the right place at the right time.

    “I definitely didn’t want to make any doubts for the refs. A guy that explosive, it’s hard to stop and pull up. I knew I was right out of the circle and he got me right in the chest.” -MANU

  • add

    man im usually not a spurs fan but i gotta give em props

  • vtrobot

    @ Jukai: fair enough, but i believe you understand the point that i was making. show me another charge call with less than 5 seconds left in a game. how many of those have happened? that call was WEAK! i think manu’s travel the other night was more deserving of a whistle than melo’s “charge” was. it was the refs opinion that melo committed an offensive foul. it was a fact that manu traveled. peace.

  • http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/ Jukai

    ShadiestBen: As of last season, I’d have to agree with you.
    But watchimg Paul this season and realizing he’s only 85% there… I don’t know. Chris Paul needs two or more STRAIGHT healthy seasons. Because, when he’s healthy, he is the clear cut best. But I don’t know when he’s healthy anymore.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Tough call on Melo, but it looks right. I just hate charges taken in that situation. Man, you gotta block a shot taking a charge just feels lame right there for some reason.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    I’m with you on that, although even at 85% i’m taking him over any other PG, BUT I get that others wouldn’t.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Ben
    You keep doing that thing witht he stats for Deron and CP3.
    But, I know you, and I know you watch the games. I know you see that Deron is playing better than Paul, that particularly his ability to drop 30 on any given night when his team needs a scoring boost, while still getting double digit assists, is amazing.
    I know you see this. I don’t argue with their career stats, Paul clearly wins there and I think he’s been slightly better over their careers even if the numbers say he’s been much better. But right now, and for the past two years, Deron Williams has owned the point guard position in the NBA.
    If Duncan plays like that, and Bynum gets hurt again, the Spurs have a real good shot to beat the Lakers. If Duncan plays the way he’s played most of the year, and Bynum is completely healthy, it’s going to be tough for the Spurs to match up with L.A. twin towers.
    That’s how I see it.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    VTrobot
    Melo lost a game on an offensive foul against the Knicks the other day, actually.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    On a plane to Europe. Happy discussions, peeps.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Allen
    When watching I think that Deron is the best scoring PG in the L hands down, but I think CP has him in passing, rebounding (CP3 is an amazing rebounder for his size) Man defense i would give Deron a slight edge because of his size, off the ball defense CP3 by far, he plays passing lanes, doubles and rotates brilliantly, also CP3 plays with heart and toughness, which is something that doesn’t show up in the stat sheet.
    Last year D Will owned the PG position as CP was hurt, so far this year I would give it to CP3, or says its a push as Paul dominated the first month or so, since then Deron has stepped up. Before last season CP3 was hands down the best PG in the L, and it was universally agreed. So I don’t get what you mean by two years? If you mean last season and so far this season then I can see your point, but disagree about this season.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Good call on the charge. He was mos def there and planted. Also read/watch the hardwoodparoxysm link that da truff posted. That puts all mumblings of Manu traveling vs. Bucks to bed. Manu is so sneaky smart on a BBall court. Gotta love his BBall IQ, which is most def among the very very best in the world.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Deron Williams is not only outplaying every other PG in the league, he is outplaying every other player.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I mean last season and this season.
    And, I don’t understand how you can use heart and toughness as plus for CP3 when Utah has widely been recognized as one of the toughest teams in the league for years, and Deron is their heart and soul.
    Deron is a great passer, just as good as CP3 in my opinion, but I will agree that Paul is more pass first. Deron plays the passing lanes, he just doesn’t gamble as often. He rarely gets beat of the dribble, and can’t be posted. His pull up is ridiculous, crossover is the best in the league.
    I know people think Paul has been the best forever, and it hasn’t been close. I’ve never been one of those people, and I think the reason Deron owns Paul is head to head matchups is because he’s on Paul’s level, not because his team is so much better.
    But that’s just me.

  • whoooo!

    everyone’s complaining about a charge not being the call to make because ppl have been accustomed to the offensive player ALWAYS getting the benefit of the doubt. push-offs happen all the time – MJ made it historic, Pierce even did it against Amare – to win games. how the hell is that fair? in those cases, the ref isn’t letting the palyers win the game, he’s giving the offensive players a huge advantage. so don’t say it’s about ‘letting the players decide the game’ when in reality what you’re saying is ‘give the offensive player the benefit of the call.’ plain and simple.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    LZ
    My only quibble would be that when he jumps back after the step back, he seems to be unable to land on both feet at once. Plus, and this is personal, I think being able to jump that far on a jumpstop is an unfair competitive advantage for any player. It seems to cross the line to the “up and down” or traveling violation we all know and love.

  • http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/ Jukai

    Allen: Of course Deron is on Chris Paul’s level. That’s besides the point.
    May I remind those of short memory that in the beginning of the season, it was Chris Paul who was lighting EVERYONE up and also dropping 20 assists, while Deron was struggling. Now it is the reverse and Deron is better? Eh…

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    I am with Allen on the CP3 vs. Deron debacle. CP3 was better, but as of right now Deron is hands down the best PG in the League (not by much though). More complete player, poses more problems for the opposite team on both ends of the floor. Love Paul’s game but having a big strong PG who can score with the best SG’s in the L and still distribute/run the offense just as good as Paul would be my pick if building a team. Considering their respective injury records I am pretty sure that every GM in the L would pick Deron over Paul if starting a team.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai.
    Deron was struggling? Utah was struggling. Deron was killing.

  • http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/ Jukai

    Deron Williams is averaging 23.0 on 48% shooting.
    Chris Paul once averaged 22.8 points on 50% shooting.
    So, LZ and Allen… Tell me, is Paul still injured right now, has Paul gotten worse because of injuries, or was that an oddball year which doesn’t really show that Chris Paul is a worse offensive player than Deron Williams?
    Because they seem to have averaged around the same points in their career.

  • http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/ Jukai

    I’m sure I’ll get the “stats aren’t everything” speech but in this case they’re pretty accurate. Deron is stronger and can take it right at someone, muscle his way in, but Chris Paul is craftier, faster, better at using glass, and has more range.
    I know Allen will disagree with this, but their midrange is about the same.

  • T-Money

    As some have said, to me, when fully healthy, CP3 is the best point guard in the NBA by a sizeable margin. He does everything and does it well – no weakness in his game. And he has worked to be a tremendous shooter, look at the percentages: 49 fg – 46 3fg – 91 ft, those are Steve Nash-like shooting numbers. And the fact that he’s under 3 turnovers a game for a guy that has to make every offensive decision on every possession, really impressive. He’s also at 3 steals a game and 4 rebounds.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Well this season and last season you can argue that D Will has been the best PG, that I will agree with. I use heart and toughness as an argument from watching CP3 every game (as I know you do) and I think he just hast that quality that you can’t explain that sets him apart from other 1′s. Utah is a tough team, but thats their culture with Jerry Sloan. Although D Will is as tough as they come too im not arguin that.
    I think CP3 is the best passer in the L, and has the best court vision (goes hand in hand), and IMO he has the best basketball I’Q in the league. I don’t think D Will is that great in the passing lanes, but I agree he stays infront of his man (Not CP3 when they played this year however) and he doesn’t get posted (is there a PG in the L who could post D Will?). He does have a great pull up, and ridiculous x over (although I would go with Jamal Crawford), I am one of those who think CP has been the best forever, but I also think its always been close. I think that D Will is on CP’s level, but the 12-3 disparity (Utahs record v NO when they play) is in no way all down to the two PG’s. Utah have always had the superior roster.
    Jukai – exactly, CP had 18 (or 19) assists V Miami when NO beat them at home. Through out their 11-1 start people were raving about him. We all no the NBA season is a marathon, and their are swings and runs that come with that. Chris Paul and D Will are gonna be neck and neck all season though, of that I have no doubt.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    hmmm when did we start using one past season to make our case for why a guy is superior today?

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Juks – your right, CP is phenomenal in the mid-range. Allen will know this as he watches all their games.
    T-money – Co sign 100%.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Allen: ‘I think being able to jump that far on a jumpstop is an unfair competitive advantage for any player. It seems to cross the line to the “up and down” or traveling violation we all know and love.’ – a player should never be penalised for being able to do something physically on the court. That Manu has the body/mechanics to jump far (very far indeed) on a jumpstop is no different than LeBron being able to get his head over the rim and should not be penalised rather commended imo.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    nbk – So far D Will has had ZERO superior seasons stat wise. Even last year when CP3 missed all those games he had better overall stats, so I don’t really know what your getting at there? Unless your saying D Will having one arguably better season doesn’t make him better (Can’t see it being that though, don’t think we have ever agreed on anything lol).

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    @Jukai: Like I said in my post, Deron is the best scorer (and player) now – this season, right now. Paul was on the same level as a scorer/player a couple of years back but not anymore. Whether it is down to him not being 100% I don’t know. But Paul has more single digit scoring nights than games in the high 20′ies/30′ies whereas Deron puts 25+ on teams just about every second game. You are right when comparing their careers but is is quite obivious that Deron poses more problems for the opposition right now imo. Also you mentioned Paul having more range, I disagree Deron shoots it better from range on the move/when going 1on1 with the defender imo. Set shots are probably about the same.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Nah, NBK is going back to an old argument. He hates to let things go.
    I know I’m in the minority when it comes to DWill, and I will admit that I’ve had a bias for him and against Paul since they came into the league, so maybe that sways my thinking.
    But, something about the style of play that Williams uses feels better to me, and it always has.
    Ben, I”m not saying Paul can’t shoot, he’s obviously a great shooter. But, he doesn’t shoot enough, in my opinion. He doesn’t take those wide open mid range jumpers nearly enough, even though I know he can make them. He should be dropping those suckers left and right, and that would open up even more driving and passing lanes when teams have to start coming out and respecting that jumper.
    Crawford has a nice crossover, I think Williams’ is better.
    I understand what you’re saying LZ, but it still feels wrong. I can’t explain it. And it I still think he jumped back on the left foot, then jumped again off the left foot, and landed on the left foot to shoot the jumper.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    I’m saying using Chris Paul’s average stats from 3 years ago to compare them to Deron Williams average stats today doesn’t prove anything. I am firmly in the camp that believe when and if ever healthy again Chris Paul is the better player, but as of right now, too me, its not even a debate. Deron Williams is the best point guard in the league.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Lz – Did you not see the percentages T-money put up? CP3 is a better shooter.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    I think we’ve talked about this before Allen. Your right he does pass up shots, he had to be aggressive in the 2nd half V Sac town and he looked great. I’m hoping he does that tonight.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Allen what old argument am I referring back to? Your right, I definitely don’t like to let things go, but what?

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    nbk
    Although I don’t agree I can see your point of view. However, you said that you think PER is the best indication of play, and CP3 is leading the L even at 85%.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Allenp, I am in that Deron-minority with you. Completely agree about their playing styles. Although I kind of enjoy watching Paul more from a entertainment perspective, I just feels that Deron is the better option for a team. He is just more steady I guess, in lack of a better way to explain it. I think I know what you mean about ‘Ginobili jumping around just feeling wrong’, when I played (the point) my back-up – who was always trying to steal my job – had the same kind of unorthodox style it got on my nerves every single practice for +5 years but in games when he would swoop through the paint I would love it and it grew on my to a point where I know consider it a very desireable skill in a player. People who praise Kobe and others great footwork should take a look at Manu, it might be ugly and unorthodox but his footwork is second to none in the L.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    You were arguing with someone about using past year’s stats opposed to current stats, I can’t remember who.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    yeah is he leading the L over the past 2 weeks? that 11-1 start was huge for them, and the fact that everything in NO runs through Chris Paul. I have never used the stat as the only line of evidence for who a better player is though. I like it too show how effective a players all around game is or isn’t, and too prove how much they mean to their respective team, but I don’t think it dictates who the best player is, in and of itself.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Oh i was arguing its better to use a careers or entire seasons worth of evidence over 25 games and one playoff series. That was about whether or not Durant was a max player

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    @ShadiestBen, AllenP, nbk, Lz, Jukai, T-Money and others: I got love for all y’all but I need to know…how the hell do you guys manage to comment on here so much? I mean, don’t y’all got jobs or something?? I’m not just talking about the quantity but the quality of the comments. Anyways, bless y’all, for I may not have the time to get in like y’all do, but you do make it an intersting read everday on the Post Up.

  • JTaylor21

    I don’t care what hardwoodparoxysm.com said. What manu did on that play was a travel, no doubt about it. I was cool with the nice step back but it was when he saw that he didn’t create much seperation from a taller defender and was going to get his shot sent to the third row, he decided to jump backwards therefore creating space for the GW shot. I give him props on the shot but dude traveled all the way from the ill mill to chicago with that one.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    I’m sure different players have higher PER than him in respective weeks, but for as long as I have been following it this year he has been first or second (usually with Kobe or Dirk flip floppin). That’s a good point, i’m just using the stat to show how effective he is, if his PER was sixth and D Will was first i would still be saying CP3 was the best PG.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    And that was with me as well lol.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    @ShadiestBen: After looking at those stats I might have to change my view on them as shooters. Will pay more attention to Paul’s shooting in the future. But I have to add that my naked eye tells me I would rather have Deron shooting a jumshot than Paul. I might be wrong though, the stats are indeed impressive.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    @Enigmatic, I’m actually working as I comment. Got a great job with a lot of flexibility.

  • Scott

    I just pray that Paul’s injuries don’t ruin his career like Roy.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    I definitely respect your opinion Ben, and I would more then likely agree with you if Paul was still healthy

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    @Enigmatic: To answer your time question. If you pay attention to my commenting habits (I don’t expect you to) you will see that I have long periods where I don’t comment at all or only comment very briefly in the evening or during lunch, this is when my workload – most of the time unfortunately – is big. This last week I have been commenting a lot, because we are closing down the year (today is my last working day juhuuuu!) and I have already tied up all the loose ends so I have had a lot of time on my hands to comment. I can’t speak about the other guys except for Eboy who I am sure is in some type of confinement where the only site he can access is SLAM (I am joking Eboy no need to bring out the muskedonner).

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Enigmatic
    I live in England and go to college, but its only for 3-4 hours a day, and work limited hours coaching basketball. Right now its about 20 to 7 in the evening so I can comment away.
    nbk – Thanks, I’m hopin CP gets back to full health before the end of this season.
    LZ – CP has always been great from mid range, but this year he had added the 3 and has been phenomenal. The reason he is overlooked as a shooter is because he doesn’t actually shoot that much.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I have a very flexible job, thank the Lord. Sometimes I’m too busy to even open the site, but most of the time, I have enough autonomy to do my work and be on here.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    That is cool Shady Ben. I knew CP was crisp from midrange and have never doubted that – my point was that Deron had better range meaning long range, to counter Jukai stating the opposite. I have only seen about 2-3 NO games this year (including the one against the Heat where CP played great but barely shot the ball) so hadn’t realized that he have added the 3 to his aresenal. Like I said I’ll take a good look when watching Paul shoot in the future and looking at the stats my assesment about Deron as the better shooter could be wrong. I’ll draw my conclusion after watching some mroe games.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Thanks all for the feedback. Making a mental note to look for another job with more flexibility! LOL, no in reality I’m actually trying to get into the Law Enforcement field so, won’t be any time for Slam if that happens.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Btw I would like to add that is has been pleasure discussing BBall on here for the last period. Thanks to all of you. I had almost quit commenting on SLAM because of all the name and ‘hater’ calling and certain content-producing elements. But it seems that the standard of the discussion has improved vastly lately. I guess most of the infants has finally found out that playing with themselves is more fun than writing ‘hater’ and homophobic sentiments in a comment section.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Lz – I really think it coincides with all the teens on here going back to school.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I don’t think it’s a function of Deron being “better” from mid range or long distance. they are about the same. Deron just shoots more jumpers, and is more effective, in my opinion, shooting them off the bounce as well as a set shooter. CP is good as a set shooter from anywhere and pretty good on pull ups, but I think Deron’s toolbox has more tools.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    wow – Miami v NY – NOH v UT – PHX v Dal, tonight is going to be a good night

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    CP3 is a lot better shooter off the bounce than off the catch. He doesn’t really catch and shoot anyway, well he never does (maybe 1 or 2 a game max). Don’t know how you can feel D Will is a better shooter Allen, he takes more but makes them at a lower rate. His full speed pull-up is great how ever. CP3 doesn’t really shoot that shot, he’s more of a yo yo dribble pull up shooter, or he gets into the lane and fades back.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Once again I agree Allen your last post is on point. As an example; Chris doesn’t have any move that leads to a jumpshot that comes even close to being as potent as Deron’s crossover to pull up jumper move. Deron can get and hit that shot from deep against anybody in the L.

  • http://www.twitter.com/TheDiesel Anton

    @Enigmatic – I will not sit here while you call out my crew. I challenge you to a fish-off, except I don’t know how to fish so I’ll bring a speargun.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Deron Williams has the best stepback in the whole league. Thats for certain, nobody creates as much space. I’m not saying who is a better shooter cuz that fluctuates game to game really, but that stepback Deron has is one of the premier “go-to” moves in the whole league.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Ben
    Maybe you’re right, when I think about it. But, the move LZ describes, the move that sets up a jumper as the preferred shot, I don’t see it from Paul. I see him taking the jumper when it’s absolutely the shot he has to take.
    And look, I understand that for a lot of people, that’s the PREFERRED way to play point guard. I really appreciate that mindset.
    I just don’t prefer those types of point guards. I like point guards who hit mid range shots. (I LOVED Sam Cassell’s game.) I like point guards who rock a defender to sleep then J him. That’s just me and what I value, and what I think is important. I don’t like point guards who do all that probing dribbling thing that Nash and Paul specialize in, but for some folks that’s beautiful basketball.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    To start a new topic and get you guys opinion; On one hand I believe that the Knicks would be worse of trading for Melo (assuming that Chandler, Gallo and others would be part of the deal). Yes, Melo and Amare would be a deadly combo on O in that system but having 2/3 of your frontline defensively challenged (Amare although improved is still below average) will not be good for the teams overall ability to challenge for a title. On the other hand history has shown that normally it is a good deal to trade for a superstar giving up several good players (The Barkley to Suns trade comes to mind, defensively challenged stud forward traded for 3 good not great players kind of the same scenrario as the ones being suggested for Melo in the media). Thoughts?

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    I would argue Paul Pierce has the best step back jumper in the L. He has made that move countless times in the clutch.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Allen
    Yeah I see what you mean, for CP3 in most cases the jumper or any shot for him is his last option. It shows you how great he is that he’s still getting 16 a game playing that way, on only 10 shots a game.
    I see what you mean about styles of play too, sometimes I feel like the Rondo’s, Nash’s, CP’s (primarily pass first) guards shouldn’t always be compared with the Derons, Rose’s and Westbrook’s (who are a lot more aggressive looking for their shot.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    @LZ – I don’t think NYK should gut their role players for Carmelo, and I don’t think Denver would let them either, it has to be a three team trade and that opens up a pandora’s box of possibilities.

    @Ben – I like Pierces every shot, he just has the best footwork IMO of any wing, and can make almost any move look like a deliberate stepback/spacemaker. idk to me its not like a deliberate move its more of a counter move from paul pierce, a lot like how Melo scores now, just does a counter to whatever the defense attempts.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    I don’t want Wilson Chandler to be traded, or Raymond Felton. If the Nuggets wanted Gallo, Chandler and Felton for Melo, that would be a tough call to make (just speaking for me personally).

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    I doubt Denver wants a point guard. They have Chauncee and Ty Lawson. I have read they would ask for Chandler, Randolph, Fields, atleast 1 first round pick, Eddy Curry’s contract and possibly Tony Douglas (although that is considering they get what they want and include JR Smith or Kenyon in the deal)

  • JTaylor21

    Lz, I think that if the knicks played in the WC along with Melo they would probably make the WCF and take the lakers to 7gms and might even make it to the finals but in the east with great defensive minded teams like the celtics, mia, and orl they would have a hard-time beating those teams and getting to the finals like the 93 suns did. At the end of the day in the playoffs, you’re going to have to make stops down the stretch to win games.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Felton HAS to stay. He is a perfect PG for NYK; Tough, talented, unselfish, consitent. I many ways he reminds me of when Derek Harper was manning the fort for the Knicks. Although the playing style of those two Knicks teams couldn’t be further apart.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    JTaylor don’t get crazy son. LAL is not getting beat by any team that can’t play defense, or even play a 7 footer.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Jtaylor – If Dallas and San An were in the East one of them (at least) would likely make the ECF. The West is still (slightly) tougher. Top to bottom the West is way tougher.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    @Anton – despite living in a state where some people literally fish or die…I’ve never been fishing in my life…how ’bout darts??

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    I’m very skilled with a rod. Not a fishing rod however.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I would make the trade NBK suggested in a heartbeat. I wouldn’t trade both Gallo and Chandler, and if I had a choice, I’d rather trade Gallo than Chandler because if Melo comes, Gallo has to slide to the four, and a frontline of Melo, Gallo and Amare is the worst defensive frontline in the NBA without a doubt. It’s a beast offensively, but defensively, you can’t win games like that.
    Chandler can slide to the two, and the Knicks can look for a decent big if they keep him.
    I think Melo and Amare together on defense is bad, but if you get three other players can defend, with the Suns pace and style, they can still be dangerous. The Suns offense is a part of their defense, and as long as the majority of the players on the floor for them can play defense, they should be a serious threat. Once you get three or four players who can’t defend, and aren’t very good offensive players on the floor then it’s a problem.
    I just realized I called the Knicks the “Suns.” My bad. I don’t feel like changing it though.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    The problem is though, if NYK wants to MAX out anyone they will have to renounce their rights to Chandler next summer. Gallo still on that rookie pay scale

  • JTaylor21

    Nbk, I said might, just imagine if Melo and Amare get hot at the same time, it’s lights out for any team (remember both amare and melo had a great gms vs La in the playoffs before). @shadiestben, Dal maybe might make it to the ECF but SA making it is highly unlikely. I just don’t see either team beating Mia, Bos, or Orl in a 7 gms series.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Like NBK said it probably have to be a 3-way deal. It is imperative that they hold onto either Gallo or Chandler imo. After wathing Knicks-Celts I actually don’t think the Knicks are that far from being a contender in a year or two with the right personnel moves. However I think they would have a better chance with a more conventional defensive system instead of Mike’s circus. They still need at least on good defensive big but I kind of like the make up of their roster; Chandler, Gallo, Fields, Felton, Douglas, Amare, Douglas are nice players with what seems like a winning mentality, even Turiaf and TimoRussian have a pretty good attitude although limited skills.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    just imagine, Wilson Chandler guarding Pau Gasol.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Wouldn’t the best move for the Knicks be to stand pat, wait until the offseason and sign Melo outright? I mean, it’s pretty obvious he wants to be in NY, they’ll have the money to sign him as an FA in the offseason, and this way they don’t give up any of their guys.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Seriously, you can’t be a serious contender if you ask Wilson Chandler to guard the opposing teams best post player.
    That move by D’Antoni made me wince, not because it was stupid, but because of what it said about Amare’s post defense. Damn son, it’s really that bad?
    Amare murdered Pau on offense once he started going to the rim last year. But, I wonder how Melo and Amare would work together on a team. Would Melo crash the offensive boards? Would Amare? that would be the best way for them to abuse teams, but owuld either of them do it?

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    @Enigmatic I think the Knicks shouldn’t trade for Melo that’s for certain. I wouldn’t be opposed to Landry Fields and Anthony Randolph for OJ Mayo though, might as well capitalize on Fields success while it lasts. D’Antoni’s system always makes guys look great, FE look at every single Knick that is in the rotation except Amar’e who is having literally the same year he has always had in D’Antoni’s system except he’s gettin 4 more shots a game

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Ultimately I think the biggest question concerning the Knicks though is…can they be a legitimate championship contender with O’Antoni as the coach? And if not, who do they get?

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Chandler guarding KG was just a weird thing to happen on a basketball-court. I am not a fan of Mike and his circus ways. Kind of liked it in Phoenix but even nwith Felton playing great that system is not the same without Nash. I personally think that the only board(s) Amare or Melo would be focusing on freequently would be the scoreboard to see who is leading the team in scoring.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Allen you didn’t realize how bad Amar’e was on defense when what 3 people had the best games of their career on him? Muhammad, Griffin, Love – Griffin had the best game of any rookie in 25 years on Amar’e.

  • Scott

    Just wait till after the season to sign Melo. Why trade for him when he wants to play for New York? Just wait a few months and Anthony will be in New York this summer.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I knew he was bad, but so bad that they have to guard KG with Wilson Chandler in the cluth?
    That’s an entirely different level bad. That’s Steve Nash bad…
    Yeah, I said it.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Oh, and the reason they want to sign Melo now is because he wants an extension under the current CBA and would be PISSED, if they didn’t get him signed now. He wants his cake and he wants to eat it too, and anybody who stands in his way will be punished.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    the worry is, that since their is a lockout, and Anthony would be giving up atleast 5 million dollars next season if he became a free agent to begin with that he might just sign with Denver to shore up his NBA financial future in a time when you don’t even know if there will be a season next year.

  • Bruno

    the other day nobody talked about felton and he had 26 and 14, even adam recognize rondo’s 14 but no mention of Felton

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    I’ve had Steve Nash and Amar’e as equal defenders for years. Ofcourse I haven’t missed a suns game if I didn’t have my own game since i was like 5 years old but regardless, i’ve always associated Stoudemire as one of the worst defensive bigs in the league, and maybe the worst defensive bigman superstar in league history. but that is a frustrated opinion as a phoenix native

  • JTaylor21

    For all the great things Amare does on the offfensive end, he’s probably the worst when it comes to the two most improtant facts to winning games; rebounding and defense. Who ever watched the nyk vs bos games especially in the 4th qtr so that amare couldn’t keep skinny a** kg out the paint, couldn’t rebound when he missed, was late chasing KG on the PnR which forced him to switch on PP and lacks any kind of passion on the defensive end. Maybe that was the reason why O’Antoni (good one Enigmatic) and him reunited at last. Birds of the same feather flock together.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    IMHO, Carmelo is not a bad defender, in fact his defense is right about on par with what Paul Pierce brings to the table – there were those who called Pierce a poor defender when the C’s stunk before the Big 3 era in Boston. You put Carmelo and Amar’e together, and they’ll score, rebound…and they defend just as much as the Showtime Lakers did. The fact of the matter is you can build around Felton-Melo-Amar’e to win a championship. Should I make a trade with the Nuggets I’d only give up Curry’s contract (which is all but paid for), Gallo, and a couple first round picks – Donnie should be able to flip Randolph for a first rounder. Anything more than that, I wait until Carmelo is a free agent this summer and get him for nothing, and the Knicks will should the Nuggets choose that route. The only other way I give up more, is if the Nuggets are sending back more than Carmelo. The Nuggets should be happy to get Danilo Gallinari…it’s not like Gallo’s that much less of an “asset” than Derek Favors, or is he better than Favors? Hmmm

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    The showtime lakers were a GREAT defensive team. They just played at a ridiculous pace. But wow, Kareem, Michael Cooper, a 6’9 PG, James Worthy, Byron Scott, Kurt Rambis, that team was stacked on both ends of the court

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Yeah, that Showtime Lakers comment was asinine. Sorry Orange.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    The Showtime Lakers were a GREAT defensive TEAM? No way, more like middle of the pack defensively, but amazing offensively. Especially from ’84 through ’88. Towards the end there Kareem would be chugging his way up around the halfcourt and the Lakers will have already scored. lol

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Good offensive foul call on Melo…

  • JTaylor21

    Damn Orange, you might want to retract that like Showtime lakers comment. The 80s lakers were a very good defensive team contray to popular believe and they would easily outscore a melo/amare led team by 15 points. I saw a stat that said that the 84 lakers own the record for team FG% in a season; 54.5%, isn’t that mind-boggling.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    smh, I see we have some Showtime Lakers history revisionists here regarding them being a “GREAT” defensive team – unless you have a different definition of what “GREAT” team defense is. lol

  • tRay

    How bout that John Wall? Oh yeah that’s right he got a shoulder injury for doing the dougie too much.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Lakers Defensive Rating in 1984 -9th
    Lakers Defensive Rating in 1985 – 7th
    Lakers Defensive Rating in 1986 – 7th
    Lakers Defensive Rating in 1987 – 7th
    Lakers Defensive Rating in 1988 – 9th

    And their offensive rating – 5th in 84, 1st from 85-87, 2nd in 88.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    @Allenp: Try out basketball reference sometime, and look at the Showtime Lakers TEAM defense from 1984-85 through 1987-88, during a stretch Showtime won 3 of their 5 NBA Championships…Then try telling me they played “GREAT” TEAM defense after checking your facts.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER
  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Oh and during those years, the Lakers never averaged less then 115 PPG…..

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Uhm, NOBODY played defense in the 80′s. Doesn’t anyone remember how high the scores were back then? That was the offensive era in basketball.

  • tony knorr

    @JTaylor. agreed on everything from that 3:48 post except I don’t think we can call KG skinny anymore. for the last couple of years he has been hovering between 250-260 at 6’11, that ain’t huge but it is not skinny. Dwight is about 265 and he is considered perhaps the strongest big in the league. plus from my experience when playing I would have to say that weight has very little to do with strength when boxing out crashing boards and playing strong in general, its more about heart and mindset. So in reality KG is very difficult to keep out of the paint for any defender. Although none of this excuses Amare’s crap defense.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    the knicks defensive rating, with better defenders then if they added Melo, 22nd. and they only score 108.8PPG, while giving up 107. The knicks are on a roll, but they aren’t even near elite, and Melo won’t change that

  • tony knorr

    is it cause i’m canadian that my posts hardly ever show up on here or what. slamonline is killin me. all I want for christmas is to be able to consistently post.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    1984-85: Lakers gave up 110.9 PPG good ranking them defensively #14 out of 23 NBA teams. 1985-86: Lakers gave up 109.5 PPG good ranking them defensively #10 out of 23 NBA teams. 1986-87: Lakers gave up 108.5 PPG good ranking them defensively #12 out of 23 NBA teams. 1987-88: Lakers gave up 107 PPG good ranking them defensively #11 out of 23 NBA teams. That is what you call SHOWTIME pace defense, not GREAT team defense.

  • tony knorr

    @JTaylor. agreed on everything from that 3:48 post except I don’t think we can call KG skinny anymore. for the last couple of years he has been hovering between 250-260 at 6’11, that ain’t huge but it is not skinny. Dwight is about 265 and he is considered perhaps the strongest big in the league. plus from my experience when playing I would have to say that weight has very little to do with strength when boxing out crashing boards and playing strong in general, its more about heart and mindset. So in reality KG is very difficult to keep out of the paint for any defender. Although none of this excuses Amare’s horrible defense.

  • tony knorr

    there it is. now they are actually starting to show up.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Yeah, Showtime Lakers were way, WAY better defensively than Carmelo/Amare could ever be.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    @IAMORANGE4EVER – if you know anything about the 80′s you know the pace was much higher. So in turn the average points given up was much higher. Look at defensive rating, which I already posted, from the same website your looking at. NYK and the “showtime” Lakers are not comparable defensively, even if the Knicks try and emulate an 80′s pace.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    Dance SLAM “Gangsta” Dance!

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    I can’t believe there is an actually an “defense in the 80′s” conversation going on up in here. Very disappointing…

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    what was that 173 comments before someone got frustrated

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Bryan the conversation came from Orange saying if the knicks acquired melo they would be comparable to the 80′s Lakers on defense. Even as a chicago guy you have to admit thats not even close to true

  • JTaylor21

    I’m co-signing BCrawford on the 80s was all about the offense tip and it wasn’t until about the late 80s a defense first team won a chip (Det). Though the lakers were an underrated defensive team with guys like scott and cooper, their main focus was to try and outscore the oppositon.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    What you mean, “even as a chicago guy”, nbk? What are you trying to say about Chicago basketball fans??

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I never said they were great, NBK did.
    You said that a team coached by Mike D’Antoni and with Melo and Amare as defensive leaders would be on their level.
    And I said that was asinine. I’m quite comfortable with that comment.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    i’m trying to say chicago basketball fans have an innate inability to admit how good the Lakers and Celtics have been in the past. It was actually just a joke because BCrawford doesn’t like agreeing with anyone

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    @nbk: Right now the Knicks rank 22 out of 30 on defense. Melo doesn’t play D and D’Antoni doesn’t coach it. Adding Melo to the NYK roster would theoretically make them just as bad, maybe not worse, but certainly not better.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    And nbk, it’s not that I don’t like agreeing with anyone. If it makes basketball sense, then I’ll co-sign.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    @nbk – ahh, gotcha.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Bryan you literally just repeated: nbk Posted: Dec.17 at 4:23 pm
    the knicks defensive rating, with better defenders then if they added Melo, 22nd. and they only score 108.8PPG, while giving up 107. The knicks are on a roll, but they aren’t even near elite, and Melo won’t change that

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Just because defense wasn’t a priority doesn’t mean nobody played defense.
    Magic’s Lakers and Bird’s Celtics both could get key stops when they needed, and played good to very good defense. They weren’t Riley’s Knicks’ or Heat, or the Bad Boys, but they weren’t the Enver Nuggets either.
    If you watch those games, defense was played. The biggest difference was in the number of shot attempts early in the shot clock, the number of times teams scored in transition or in early offense, and the improved mid range shooting. True, there were fewer defensive juggernauts individually, but man teams played solid defense.
    The Lakers were not an “elite” defensive team, but they were good.
    I challenge anyone to prove that a Knicks team with Melo and Amare would be “good.” How can you even argue that? What is your basis for that assumption? Neither Amare nor Melo have ever been on a good defensive team, D’Antoni has never coached a good defensive team, and there is no indication that nay of them even care about defense.
    The reason Orange picked the Showtime Lakers was because they were an offensive force, and still won championships. But, the reality is that they were elite offensive, and good defensively, which made them elite overall. The Knicks are very good offensively, not elite, and horrible on defense. Acquiring Melo would likely only change one of those things.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    and I would like to take back that I called the Showtime Lakers great defensively. That was an overexaggeration. But they sure were good

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    If defense isn’t a priority, then that would mean that nobody is playing it, right? And because teams made key stops in games is evidence that defense existed throughout the 80′s? Come on, man.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    No if defense isn’t a priority (which i think it probably was to some degree) then that means the team focuses on improving something else. obviously that would be offense, I think allen was trying to say teams didn’t really work on their defense, or defensive philosophies in the 80′s like they do now.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    So if you’re not working on your defense or your defensive philosophies, then how can you be considered “good”?

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    if your good at it then you can be considered good. just because a heap of points and shot attempts went up doesn’t mean a team is bad at defense. For example the 1984-85 Lakers held their opponents to 48% shooting, and 28% 3pt shooting. with a defensive rating of 9th (the worst of the years in question) vs Boston from last year, the best defensive team in today’s league by many standards, they held opponents to 45% shooting, and 34% 3pt shooting. The major difference? The Lakers opponents shot 7600 shot attempts, The Celtics 6,390. That is a 1300 shot difference, which is a pretty logical reason the scoring is so much higher, and people think defense was nonexistent wouldn’t you say?

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    1200*

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Timmy had 16(not 14 adam) boards and 4 blocks. Great game by the big 3 with the 3 big rings. …. Dwade is going to dunk on amare tonight, BAD!

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    No.
    You can be a good defensive team without defense being your main defensive priority.
    For example, the current Lakers squad are a good to very good defensive team, but we all can see that defense is not always there priority, and we know that Phil spends far more time teaching and explaining the intricacies of the triangle, the working on help defense.
    The best, or elite, defensive teams make defense their priority. That’s what they hang their hats on.
    The Showtime Lakers had offense as their priority, but they also understand that they needed to be able to get serious stops, and that they needed to be able to play somewhat decent defense if they were going to be able to ignite their fast break.
    You don’t become a fast breaking team by pulling the ball out of the basket every trip down the floor, that’s Basketball 101.
    A blanket statement that “nobody played defense in the 80s” doesn’t make sense. If you watch games from that period you will see that people played defense, but there were a LOT more shots in a game. If you watch the games you will see that nobody made all these crazy passes and ran these elaborate sets. It was far more about early offense, getting quick hitters, and then trying to get offensive rebounds. Then, if you get the defensive rebound, it was about advancing the ball up the court as quickly as possible to get an easier scoring opportunity.
    Scoring was so much better back then because players were MUCH better offensively. They understood better how to attack, plus the sheer shot volume was higher. People like to compare Kobe, or Iverson to Jordan as “gunners” but if you look at the shot totals for those three players, Jordan has multiple seasons over 2,000 shots, while I don’t think Kobe or Iverson have ever cracked the 2,000 shot plateau.
    The 84-85 Lakers took more than 7,200 shots as a team, had three players shoot 1,000 shots and Magic shot 899. (Their opponents shot 7,800 shots) In comparison, the 2001 Lakers shot about 6,600 shots.
    But that’s an unfair comparison since those two teams had different styles, so let’s take a different squad. The 84 Nuggets (randomly selected since Denver always runs) took more than 7800 shots. In comparison, the 2004 Suns, took 7,000 shots and they played at by FAR the fastest pace in the league. Hell, the Nuggest last year only got up 6600 shots, and we know they run in Denver.
    Bottom line, if you take a lot more shots, you score a lot more points. If the entire league takes faster shots before defenses are set, and they generally have better mid-range shots (the shots most commonly available in any game) then you’re going to have higher scoring and it’s going to look like no defense is being played.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Sorry, should read “without defense being a your main priority.” Otherwise it doesn’t make sense.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    “just because a heap of points and shot attempts went up doesn’t mean a team is bad at defense.” Uhm, that’s kind of the point of playing defense, to keep stuff like that at a minimum.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Ill take deron over paul any day. And ive said that since draft night. Amare and the knicks suck on d. They would have won that game if they didnt give up 18 easy uncontested layups. Melo is ok at d, sometimes. ………………. ………………. …….. …….. Because hes manu ginobili.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Bryan
    No, that’s not. The point of defense is to prevent the other team from scoring the way they are most comfortable scoring.
    The Lakers shot 7,200 times, yet their opponents shot 7,600 times. However, the Lakers shot 54 percent, while their oppenents shot 48 percent. More importantly, the Lakers outrebounded and outblocked their opponents.
    Basically, the Lakers suckered people into playing at their pace, taking the shots they wanted them to take, and then the Lakers ran right back down their throats and got the shots THEY wanted.
    It’s like giving somebody the jumper because you know they’ll fall in love with it, even if they can’t shoot.
    By what measure did you decide “nobody played defense.” Was it league wide scoring, was it the eyeball test, what led you to decide that nobody in the 80s played defense?

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    ofcourse stopping teams from scoring is the point of defense. Stopping shot attempts though? no, its keeping teams from getting easy buckets. The Lakers opponents shot around 7500 shots per season in the mid 80′s, the Knicks opponent last year attempted 6902. And the difference, 4 points per game

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    The anti New York Bias on this website is laughable.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    AllenP, how do you always make your comments look so damn organized, complete with paragraphs and such? And I find it hard to believe also that of the 20-something teams in the 80′s, not one of them had any interest in playing hard on the defensive end.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    what anti-new york bias? saying they aren’t a contender, or elite is anti-new york?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    The New York fans are crazy.
    What bias?
    People are giving Miami hell about playing subpar teams, and New York has played the easiest schedule in the league.
    People are wondering if San Antonio can be a true contender without the ability to stop the Lakers bigs, but Knicks fans are arguing they can give one of the contenders in the East a tough first round series without being able to get a single clutch stop against Boston despite a hobbled Rondo, no Shaq and No Jermaine O’Neal and no Delonte West.
    Amare is basically telling the world Chris Bosh can’t hold his jock, New York media and fans are saying they never even wanted LeBron that much and he’s a coward anyway and the rest of the world is biased?
    Come on Bryan, let’s be real.
    It’s nice that Amare is beasting and showing that he is a LEADER. I’m impresses because I knew he was a beast, didn’t know if he was a leader.
    It’s nice that Gallo is rounding into form, it’s nice hat Wilson Chandler is balling, it’s nice that Raymond Felton has discovered the joys of playing fo Mike D’Antoni as a point guard. It’s good that the Knicks are competitive so far.
    But this early in the season it’s crazy to be talking about playoff performance for that team, or even touting Amare as the freaking MVP, in my opinion. He ain’t doing anything new. It’s only new because people really and truly thought Steve Nash “made” him.

  • JTaylor21

    I think that the majority of teams in the 80s placed a bigger emphasis on trying to outscore the opponent to win and the lakers and celtics were the perfect example of that, hell even the mid 80s Pistons were more of an offensive team then they realized that they didn’t possess the kind of offensive weapons that the lakers and celtics had to win agaisnt them, they decided to focus more on becoming a smash-mouth defensive team, if they hadn’t the celts and lakers would have ran them out of the building. It’s a fact that the late 80s pistons team were the only championship team that focused on defense first.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Enigmatic
    There were some good and interested defensive teams back then. The Celtics, the Pistons, the Sixers did all right at times. But, the level of attention to defense, and the level of control over offense that we see today was not there back then.
    Also, I just hit enter. When I hit enter, it makes a new paragraph.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    not for everyone else Allen, for some reason we can’t create paragraphs, indents, new lines, nothin.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    There were some outstanding defenders in the 80′s too.
    Dennis Johnson
    Dennis Rodman
    Joe Dumars
    Just to name a few

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Word. Especially when Allen compares two sets of stats. They always come out all pretty looking. Everyone else tries to do it and it looks like crap.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    In 83/84 the two lowest scoring teams were the Cavs and Hawks at around 102 ppg.
    The Cavs took 7,200 shots
    The Hawks took 6,800.
    The pace of the 80s was ridiculous. The Hawks shot .474 from the field, the Cavs shot 46 percent.
    The league average for shot attempts was 7,200. The field goal percentage was .49
    Last year, the league average was 6,700 shots and .46 percent shooting.
    Given the diffusion of talent, the increase in three point shots, and the larger players, it seems like the sheer number of shot attempts is the biggest difference between the two leagues. And when you watch games, it’s obvious.
    Coaches were far more comfortable letting their teams play back in the day. They didn’t orchestrate every possession, and they didn’t have a hit when players took open shots early in the shot clock. Nowadays, if you take an early shot, even if you’re open, you get pulled quickly. Totally different game.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Back to the so-called “anti-New York bias” though.
    Too many New York fans on here are too gassed up about their team.
    As a Bulls fan, I love my team but I know it’s a long shot for us to win the title.
    This year.
    I’d love for us to have more than one player in the ASG.
    But it probably won’t happen.
    I’d love for Rose to win MVP. But unless the Bulls end up with at least the third best record in the L, it probably won’t happen.
    Knicks fans meanwhile, not all mind you but too many
    Swear they’re contenders this year.
    Swear Amare should be MVP
    Swear Felton should be an All-Star
    Swear Fields should be ROY
    Swear they’re a good defensive team
    Come on though!

  • JTaylor21

    I always wonder what players that played in the 80s numbers would look like if they were playing today. Due to today’s slower pace and good teams placing more of an emphasis on D, I would bet that their numbers go down ever so slighty. That’s why I have a very hard-time believing that MJ would avg. 40ppg (let alone scoring 100) like some people claimed. The man is nice but nobody is 40ppg nice.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    And yes, I’m biting AllenP’s commenting style worse than Jay-Z’s been biting Biggie’s rapping style. My apologies, Allen. It just looks dope. You can call me a shark if you want (word to Rae and Ghost)

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Lol. I don’t care.
    JTaylor
    The foul rules would make things easier, the fact that star players take an even larger percentage of shots would make things easier in a way too. If mike wanted to average 40, or 10 points a quarter, he could get there. That’s three to four field goals a quarter, plus some free throws.
    I can’t bet against him doing that on command.

  • JTaylor21

    AllenP, I feel ya but can do that in all 82 gms? That’s highly unlikely, you have to take account just how much slower and less shots teams take today compared to the 80s and early 90s. Kobe when he avg. 35ppg, he took over 2,000 shots making 978 and took over 819 fts and making 696 while taking 518 3pts and making 180 of them. That would mean that MJ would have to either make 100 more shots than the 1098 he made in his 37ppg season or take 200 more fts than the 972 he took in the same season. That is an impossible amount of shots or fts for any one to take and make in this slowed-down era.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Enigmatic is kinda the exception, as hes never been too overboard, but chi fans calling ny fans crazy for their outrageous claims is funny.

  • JTaylor21

    Also MJ’s lack of 3pt shooting in his mid-tweties would make it that much harder for him to drop 40 in every game.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    I’ve been prone to hyperbole too, Tarzan. Over the summer I once stated that Derrick Rose would be better than Dwyane Wade this year. I think Eboy called me “Enignoramus” or “Enigmatism” after I made that comment.
    What can I say? I was p*ssed about LeBron joining the Heat and not us.
    But I hear what you’re saying. I never understood why people can’t be both die-hard fans of their respective teams and realists at the same time.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Ok Knicks fans. Ok.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Enigmatic, I must have missed that one. Emidddleagedman can come up with some funny names sometimes. …. I must admit, rose has played better than I thought he would. HOWEVA!, I assumed boozer would be there from the start, thus taking the ball out of roses hands for post ups. Without boozer, rose is their only creator, so he did his thing. All that said, I see the bulls as being just outside of being a title contender. Rip hamilton might be just what they need. But then again, rip is like 33 right?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Gallo is sneaky athletic. That wasn’t a charge though.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Man the amount of attention wade and bron command is crazy.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Yo the refs are getting a little shaky.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    You know you are good when you have 30 and a near triple double and the announcers are praising someone for good defense on you.

  • Bryan

    Allen, as I said yesterday which you and NBK chose to ignore, I am not calling them contenders to anything except to make the playoffs. IMO Amare leading the Knicks, the same Knicks who have been awful for ten years to a winning record puts him at the top of my MVP list. The Knicks being just a middle of the pack team is a huge leap from where they were the last seven seasons. They are winning winnable games which is what good teams are supposed to do. Using the game against the defending EC champs as a measuring stick is ridiculous. Paul Pierce apparently is and has been for some time now pretty clutch. Who was stopping that play? And while we’re where were the almighty Celtics clutch stops? You can continue to argue with me that they’re not contenders because that’s the card you choose to play to overlook the improvement that they actually have made, and I will continue to think there is a bias against an improving team because all you people want todo is point out their flaws.

  • monkeyball

    Manu is a Hall of Famer. Has this been discussed already?

    Oh, and those referee calls… damn! Clearly it’s a David Stern-led conspiracy to insure the Spurs play in the Finals. Everyone knows how much the NBA front office loves that.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Bryan I didn’t even think we were discussing them as contenders. You said nobody wanted to play y’all in the first round and I think that is crazy. Every contender would be perfectly happy playing the Knicks in the first round and would handle them easily. If the celtics had been healthy the game wouldn’t have been that close.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Last comment. If you get stops the Knicks wont return the favor and then you win. If the Knicks don’t score they don’t win.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Noone said they wouldn’t make the playoffs. There is no bias to being realistic. And they aren’t contenders for any kind of championship. But they may get as high as a 4 seed if chicago struggles without Noah. MVP candidate is your own opinion

  • JTaylor21

    Amare destroyed KG and the bos defense for 39/11 and was .2 second away from beating them but struggles mightly against Bosh and mia’s defense. Just maybe people will start to see that when Mia is firing on all cylinders, they are very very scary. Also who in the NBA mixes great scoring abiltiy with great passing abiltiy better than Bron? No one is even in his league with regards to all-around ability.

  • Pharoah

    KG wasnt guarding him most of the game though

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