Quantcast
Thursday, January 13th, 2011 at 8:50 am  |  371 responses

Post Up: Heat Streak Clipped

Miami falls on the road, while Magic get denied in NOLA.

by Adam Figman | @afigman

Atlanta 104, Toronto 101

Very much under the radar, the Hawks have been tearing it up as of late, with this being their fifth win in as many games. Jamal Crawford was a machine, leading the team with 36, while a late Mike Bibby trey put Atlanta up for good. They now sit at 26-14, with a break until Saturday’s tilt with Houston.

Indiana 102, Dallas 89

Still without Dirk Nowitzki, the short-handed Mavs fell to the Pacers, who saw solid efforts from swingman Brandon Rush and young’n Paul George (16 points). Indiana, as a result of some weak, weak play from all of those outside of the East’s top six, are still holding on to that seven spot, a position that’ll potentially give its owner the rights to get creamed by the Heat or the Celtics (or, perhaps, the Magic or Hawks) in the first round of the Playoffs.

Charlotte 96, Chicago 91

Speaking of groups pushing for those last two spots, the Bobcats have been making a little run, originally sparked by a coaching change and now being fueled by a streaking point guard. DJ Augustin (22 points, 12 dimes) won the battle of the pgs last night, besting Derrick Rose (17 points, 7 dimes) and leading his team to victory. Charlotte is now 15-21 and sits at eight in the top-heavy Eastern Conference.

Memphis 107, Detroit 99

The Grizzlies haven’t blown anyone away with their overall play, but if nothing else, Zach Randolph’s numbers are awfully impressive, and he’s been putting up monstrous box scores night after night. Yesterday he went for 34 and 17, dominating the paint as the Grizz took down the Pistons in Detroit. Rudy Gay contributed 26 points, and the team shot 52.1 percent from the field in the W.

Boston 119, Sacramento 95

With Tyreke Evans resting his ankle, the Kings had little shot in this one, as Rajon Rondo and the C’s went up six after one quarter and kept pushing that lead further as the game went on. Rondo scored 10 and dished 13, while Paul Pierce scored 25 and all five Celtic starters were able to play under 30 minutes. (Insert joke about old people needing rest here.) Boston stands at 29-9 and plays Charlotte tomorrow night.

San Antonio 91, Milwaukee 84

Coming back from an eight-point halftime deficit, the Spurs went hard in the final two quarters, taking the lead and the victory away from the Bucks. Matt Bonner led the charge, scoring all 17 of his points in the second half (WHAT?), while Manu Ginobili put in 23. For the Bucks, Andrew Bogut (15 points, 14 rebounds) and his buddies just fell short.

New Orleans 92, Orlando 89

Winning a whole bunch of games in a row in the NBA is rough, and the Magic do get credit for almost holding on for their 10th straight. After a back-and-forth four quarters, a Hedo Turkoglu trey sent this one to OT, but a late Marcus Thornton (22 points) J put the Bees ahead for good in extra time. Dwight Howard (29 points, 20 boards) got his numbers, but Chris Paul (12 points, 13 assists) and Co. got the win and all the fun that accompanies it. Orlando will look to start a new streak tonight in Oklahoma City.

Oklahoma City 118, Houston 112

The Thunder offense was flowing last night, and when the ball is really moving for them, they’re damn tough to contain. Kevin Durant dropped a 30 spot, while Russell Westbrook went for 23 points, 13 dimes and 8 rebounds, catapulting his squad over the home team. The Rockets were led by Luis Scola (31 points), but the Argentine disappeared in the stretch as OKC made some big buckets and held on.

Phoenix 118, New Jersey 109

A night after they were blasted in Denver, it appeared the Suns would have the same fate against the visiting Nets. But, down 90-75 in the fourth, Steve Nash (23 points, 16 assists) and friends surged back, sending the game to OT and then dominating the extra session en route to the victory. Devin Harris went for 15 points and 15 assists, and if your Carmelo, isn’t there a chance you’re watching this while saying something along the lines of: Would I really wanna play here, especially if that guy’s leaving town? I don’t know. Just a thought.

Utah 131, New York 125

The Knicks can score points in bunches and clear 100 each game easily, so they really don’t need too much defense to get wins. But they need some, and against the Jazz, there was none. At all. Utah scored 113 (easily, I’ll add), as they defeated the Knicks and sent them home with a 2-2 road trip record. Both Shawne Williams (who scored a season-high 25 points and drained 7 threes) and Bill Walker (23 points) were exceptional, but no other Knicks really produced, and perhaps some rest before they host the Kings tomorrow will be useful.

L.A. Lakers 115, Golden State 110

In the long run, a mid-season losing streak probably does more good than harm, and it appears the positive effects of those few losses the Lakers suffered are starting to shine through. The Lake Show is hot again, and yesterday they took down the Warriors behind Kobe Bryant’s 39 points and Pau Gasol’s 24-point, 11-rebound effort. This W marks six straight; LA will host New Jersey Friday, when they’ll attempt to make it seven.

L.A. Clippers 111, Miami 105

The Clippers were up 44-26 after a quarter, but it felt inevitable that the Heat would come back and steal this one from ‘em. It kind of happened—in that they made a strong push—but the Clips held on, receiving some clutch play from Blake Griffin (24 points, 14 boards), Eric Gordon (26 points) and others. Miami’s Three Bros combined for 84, but it wasn’t enough, and the Clippers ended the Heat’s road winning streak at 13. Unfortunately, the season didn’t start a week ago, or else we might look at LAC and think, Hey, maybe they could…but, no. Not this season. Still, a great win for a young team with an increasingly impressive core.

Actual Stats: Dwight Howard: 29 points, 20 rebounds, 2 blocks, 1 steal.

Moment of the Night: Chris Wilcox made this really wild reverse lay-up. Respect.

Wait. One more, because this is awesome. Blake Griffin gets T’ed up for an argument/stare down with Mario Chalmers, throws down a huge dunk on an ensuing play, then glares at Chalmers with eyes that could pierce through metal. You’re gonna want to watch this:

(H/T: Get Banged On)

  • Add a Comment
  • Share
  • RSS

Tags: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I loved the Clippers spirit last night. To be honest, it seemed liked initially they followed B-Diddy’s example, the Eric Gordon started to play harder and finally, the rest of the team couldn’t miss in the first quarter. They won that game in the first 12 minutes. And they more than deserved it. The Heat have no excuses. They played that same lazy style, early, that they’ve been playing for a few games (last two games they had to come back to force overtime)and it finally caught up to them. Good. They needed it. I fully expect the Nuggets to get a nice win tonight with Bron sitting with the rolled ankle, and unless Bron can play, will probably lose the game on Saturday with the Bulls. Spo has no one to blame but himself for last night. His substitution patterns were horrible and he basically gave the game away at the end of the third when the Heat cut the lead to three and then with about 3:00 minutes left, he sat Bosh and Wade together and the lead was at double figures again at the start of the 4th. Spo, you Philipino simpleton, if your team comes back from 20 down and has the lead in sight, YOU DON’T SIT YOUR STARS JUST TO STICK TO YOU ROTATION!!!!! Fu*kwit. I hope Eric Gordon and Blake Griffin can make something happen for that team, they are great to watch.

  • http://www.facebook.com/joe.l.brewer3 BlackPhantom

    Nice game by Kobe, Pau and the Lakers. Wow, the Clippers future looks really bright. Dwight Howard put up 20 and 20, nice. But that isn’t anything on Kevin Love’s 30 and 30! haha

  • riggs

    mario chalmers should have DEFINATELY stfu. not only is blake a better basketball player but he would get demolished in a fight.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    CP3 didn’t shoot as well as he normally does (5-12, 2-3 FT), but he played a great overall game (12, 13, 5, 1 stl, only 1 TO), and played great D on Jameer Nelson (2 points on 1-10, although he did have 10 ass, with 3 turnovers). The last 10-15 games CP has been back to playing elite level on ball defence.
    Oh yeah, f**k Maro Chalmers. PS lol! @ Phillipino simpleton.

  • Kensei

    @eboy – because being Filipino has everything to do with coaching substitutions, amirite? at least get the spelling right.

  • http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/ Anthony

    co-sign Eboy, btw im wondering how Spo will do in the Playoffs. I dont see him outcoaching Doc Rivers in a 7-games serie to tell you the truth.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I agree with eboy on the laziness thing. It was kind of weird to see bron limping around because he almost never has leg injuries. Baron shocked me with the dunk. Makes it even worse how lazy he plays sometimes.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Stepping on someone’s foot will get you EVERY time.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    baron has pissed me off so much this season yet has made me love his play at times, for instance that stupid three he chucked up made me hate him but when he dove to steal the ball (but ended up out of bounds) he made me forgive him for the three. love/hate him.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I’ve been hurt a bunch in the 30 years I’ve played ball and for real, the worst pain of them all is landing on someone’s foot.

  • Mike from Spain

    I’d have pooped in my shorts If I’d seen Blake Griffin staring my way like that…

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I’ll say this….the Heat could use Baron I he played with the same passion he did last night. I’d live with some of his silly plays.

  • Fut.

    Rule #122: Don’t piss off the guy who can dunk on your whole team. Ever.

  • http://bugmarley.com LeoneL

    Eboy, I hope you did not just use Philipino as in “Philipino simpleton” as a derogatory remark. And what happened to you looking past the Clips and the Nugs? Also, its Filipino.

  • MUBWAR

    So the Heat got too cocky thinking they can comeback on anyone. Clips played an amazing game but the effort on D cost us the game. Amazing shout out between Kobe n Ellis. Time to slap Melo in the face tonight.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I did, in reference to Spo. I couldn’t call him an Italian simpleton or a French simpleton or a Greek simpleton, so I went with what I know. It was actually meant to be in jest. I did look past the Clips and the Nuggets, but, I don’t prepare the team for their games. The Filipino Vinny Del Negro does and he failed pretty poorly last night.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I did, in reference to Spo. I couldn’t call him an Ita*ian simpleton or a French simpleton or a Greek simpleton, so I went with what I know. It was actually meant to be in jest. I did look past the Clips and the Nuggets, but, I don’t prepare the team for their games. The Filipino Vinny Del Negro does and he failed pretty poorly last night.

  • MUBWAR

    So the Heat think they pull off a comeback every night. They got too cocky coming in this game n it showed on the 1st q. Let’s leave this loss in the past n slap Melo in the face tonight 4 disrespecting his team.

  • Fut.

    Surely “failing pretty poorly” is actually somewhere closer to success than fail.

  • Mike from Spain

    Eboy… I get the first part of your post. I don’t get what you say about Del Negro…

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I’m going to start calling Spo, Arnel Pineda, the wannabe Pat Riley. For the kids, look it up.

  • underdog

    It was great to see B.Diddy playing fired up.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Mike from Spain, Del Negro has been vilified in the past as a making boneheaded mistakes due to him being a young coach without a pedigree. Spo got outcoached by Vinny last night, hence the comparison.

  • http://bugmarley.com LeoneL

    Actually, he’s an American simpleton Eboy.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    LeoneL, you may need to brush up on your nationality knowledge.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Unless every major sport news service that covers NBA basketball was incorrect when they posted the headline that “Erik Spoelstra becomes the first Filipino head coach in NBA history” when he took the team over.

  • MUBWAR

    The Heat played with a lot of cockiness in the past 3 games including last nights. They have this: we can come back in any game mentality about them which can be good but sometimes can backfire. Let’s put that loss to rest and let the King take care of Melo for that game winner he hit on him last year.

  • T-Money

    PLAY MIKE MILLER. PLAY ERICK DAMPIER. SIT JOEL ANTHONY. SIT JAMES JONES.

  • MUBWAR

    He was actually born in Illinois eboy. He is Filipino-American to be exact.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Bulls deserved to lose last night. This starting out slow out the gate sh*t is getting old.
    I was definitely impressed by the Clips last night but I was mostly impressed by Baron’s leadership and composure. The way he got in Blake’s face and told him to get his ass to the bench after Blake’s dunk and Chalmers stare-down, the way he orchestrated the offense, the hustle that had been missing as if late.
    Eric Gordon did his thing too. And you KNOW Blake did his thing.
    I hope LeBron learned a thing or two about karma. It works both ways.
    And I feel the need to stick up for my Alaskan homie Chalmers. I have no idea how it started, and yes it was stupid to p*ss off Blake Griffin cause that just makes him wanna dunk on your team even more, but I’m not surprised Chalmers got in dude’s face. I’ve gotten to know the Anchorage neighborhoods and them Mountain View cats got a little hood in them, there’s no backdown in them.

  • Mike from Spain

    @Eboy OK, some double negative went under my radar … Yeah, every other comment about the Clips say Vinny del Negro sucks. I’d say not as much as the Clips owner, whatever his name was

  • http://www.slamonline.com KulchaKris

    Am I the only one who thinks that this season will be filled with long win streaks for the top (middle tier even?) teams? So many mediocre teams in the league, it’s hard to draw any conclusions about whether a team (the Lakers, for example) is really playing better.

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    Anything more than a coincidence Lebron rolled his ankle last night and then tried to retract responsibility from his tweet? It is all love though. In other news, my Bobcats are some how officially in the money again!

  • T-Money

    More seriously, you don’t deserve to win when you give up 44 in the 1st quarter to a team well below .500… E, You have them going on 3-game losing streak? Um, no. Chi-town and Denver are not exactly killing right now either. I want Spo to play his best players longer minutes. Sounds stupid but still. Just start Rio. Have Miller and Dampier be the firt guys off the bench. Play Arroyo a bit less. James Jones a bit less. Joel when the matchup REALLY CALLS FOR IT. Give a clipboard to Juwan. Voilà!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Enigster, Chalmers was right to go back at Blake for elbowing him, but there’s a time and a place, and I think he picked the wrong time in the game to try and “stand his ground”.

  • michael

    why even call him a philipino (sic) simpleton? why not just simpleton if u feel that way?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    T-Money, the Heat play notoriously poorly in Denver. If Bron doesn’t play, Melo should have a field day. I expect a loss. In Chicago? Without Bron (probably), I expect the Bulls to play like they did against the Celtics a week or so ago and take it to them. If Bron plays, that may be different, but unless they change their early game habits overnight, the struggle will continue.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Maybe I should have Tweeted my Filipino comment and got national exposure.

  • MUBWAR

    Now we see what is really capable of. that is losing to 3rd tier pg. He lost against Harris, then Jrue got the best of him and last night he was man handled by DJ. Not a MVP caliber to me.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    CP3 didn’t shoot as well as he normally does (5-12, 2-3 FT), but he played a great overall game (12, 13, 5, 1 stl, 1 TO), and played great D on Nelson (1-9, 2 points, although he had 10 assists, 3 TO). The last 10-15 games CP has been back to playing elite level on ball defence.
    Oh yeah, fuck Mario Chalmers, and Eboy’s comment was clearly in jest, and funny. It’s no big deal.

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    Mubwar I resent you calling DJ a 3rd tier point guard. He has been nothing short of great under Silas. Check the stats since Paul took over, they dont lie..

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    If LeBron and Wade both play the Bulls, it’s going to be really really tough forthe Bulls to pull out the win, simply because those two have always destroyed the Bulls.
    Thibs might have something up his sleeve though. And we are playing at home so we’ll see.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    MUBWAR, I didn’t see the NJ game, Jrue & him was a good match-up, and I didn’t watch last nights game but stat wise he got out performed.
    How ever, is there any reason apart from your love for Bron that you think Rose shouldn’t be MVP? Whilst I don’t think he should win it if the season ended today, he is definitely in the conversation, and is at least top 5 on any MVP watch I have seen.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    DJ has played great for a minute. He deserves recognition for going toe to toe, and looking better, than D-Rose in a head to head matchup.

  • Max

    Matt Bonner needs to be in the 3-Point shootout…

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Bobcats did a great job of trapping Rose and not really letting him get into any rhythm offensively.
    I think the Bulls were looking past Charlotte and that’s always a big mistake against any team.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    And D Rose could be MVP, as there has been no clear runaway. If it ended today I would give it to Bron, but that’s because of his play over the last 20 something, no one guy has been playing MVP caliber ball all year, apart from CP3, who remains criminally slept on.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    LeBron will play tonight. Book it.

  • http://akflf.com Jukai

    @Eboy: It’s spelled ‘Filipino.’ If you’re going to strangely add Spolestra’s ethnicity in every single post about him, Eboy, perhaps spelling it right would make it a little less odd.
    Also, I think you owe me an apology: I kept telling you I’m worried about Spoelstra’s rotations, that I thought he found something that worked wonders but everything he says makes me think he’ll change it… Low and behold, there ya go.

  • http://akflf.com Jukai

    Whoops, looks like people already called Eboy out on the Filipino thing. Gotta read everything before I post.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Allen
    I seen the debate you guys were having yesterday, I was wondering if you really believe Bron had less talent last year on his squad, than CP has this year? It’s easily arguable either way, which is why I asked.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Wrong interpretation of the order there, Adam. On the play before Baron shoveled the pass to Blake for his double pump jam, Blake shoved Mario HARD around halfcourt while they were trailing a clipper fastbreak and Chalmers took offense to that. I didn’t mind the intentional foul much, mindgames and Ll, plus who knows what MC yapped at Griffin to cause the shove.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Nick Tha Quick

    What exactly happened between HIM and Chalmers? Clip only shows their reaction to something that happened, the technicals and then the dunk.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    People have overhyped the win streak Miami has been on. They have played some pretty inferior competition over the past month and a half with Dallas and LA being the only two notable opponents. I think the weak competition is still masking many of the problems that still exist like the lack of depth and size.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @NickThaQuick…There was a lot of jarring back and forth the entire game between Griffin and Heat players. Griffin has an early reputation of being a sh*t talker.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    MUBWAR – You’re an idiot. I like how you left out that he demolished Rondo in your statement. Stop typing and get back to eating your tub of paste.
    Enigmatic – I could understand not being up for the Nets game. But I would have expected them to have learned their lesson against the 76ers. Losing to another time like this for the third time in five games is just unprofessional. How do you hold a team to 27 points in half and then give up 36 in a quarter the very next game? I thought under Thibs they’d be much more consistent. @Eboy between the Heat’s and Bull’s slow starts, Saturday’s game could be a 30 all tie at the half.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Kap, we wouldn’t want to make that same assumption about the current Lakers win streak and the “world beaters” they’ve been gaining victories against either, would you? Nah, just enjoy wins as they happen.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    KAP – so you’re not impressed when the heat beat the bad teams but you have no comment on LA losing to those same bad teams?

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    The Laker’s have had a lot easier schedule than Miami. Actually, as I was going to post that I checked just in case, and Miami’s schedule is 5th easiest, whilst Lakers is the easiest, so not much difference.

  • T-Money

    Miami doesn’t lack size. They just don’t always feel the need to play big. If they have to, they can rotate Z, Damp and Big Cat. / E: Bron is kinda teflon. He just doesn’t miss that many games. I’d sit him tonight partly because I want to see Mike get extended minutes and there’s no reason to play back-to-back on a sore ankle but he’s not missing the Chicago game.

  • http://akflf.com Jukai

    T-Money: The problem is, Spo doesn’t role rotations good.

  • Mvp23100

    If bron sits tonite wade goes for 40

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    You cannot not compare the Lakers to the Heat because we know LA is just coasting through the season because they are back to back champs unlike the Heat who have not won anything. Thats why I didn’t mention LA along with the fact since Bynum has returned to form the lakers defense is giving up 91 points a game and have looked solid on both end of floor.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Playing nobodies, Kap forgot to write.

  • http://akflf.com Jukai

    What worked: Alternating Arroyo-Chalmers at point, Lebron-Wade-Jones at the 2/3 spot, Bosh-Howard at the four, and starting Big Z at the five with Joel/Damp depending on how mobile the center is! Also, having at least Wade or Lebron in the game at all times.
    What I would do: Miller should totally replace James Jones. If the replacement doesn’t work, bring back in James Jones. When Haslem is healthy, he should take Howard’s minutes and not a second more, as to not mess up the rotation
    What Spo will probably do to break my heart: Place James Jones and Miller together, which is redundant and utterly dumb. To make up for their playing together, try to force Miller into a more ball-handler role, which isn’t on a team which has four ball-handlers. When Haslem comes back very late in the season, play him way too much and play Bosh/Haslem at the same time, but this time, switch HASLEM to the five. Sit Dampier down 90% of the time and let Joel Anthony struggle, simply because you paid Joel a lot of money and you don’t like Dampier.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    David west is slept on. Thornton and collison can hoop. Okafor too. I would take them over most of the cavs not named andy or delonte. And delinte missed a lot of the year.

  • http://akflf.com Jukai

    Kap: That’s sort of nonsensical. What does a championship bring that allows one to coast? Is it confidence, or knowledge that a playing style works? I don’t get it. Why do the Heat have to play games at 100% every day while the Lakers can coast, and the Lakers can just turn it on simply because they’ve won while the Heat aren’t able to do that because they don’t have a championship?
    I need you to elaborate on this point, because it doesn’t seem to make sense to me.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Collison isn’t playing for NO this year? Shaq/Z is a better combo than Mek/nobody. Jamison/Andy is better than West/Smith. Parker/Delonte is better than Bellinelli/Green, but your right about Marcus. Too bad Monty doesn’t give him regular burn.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Seems to me (and i’ve watched 7 or 8 Clipper games so far this season) that Blake is starting to feel himself a bit too much. Of course since he doesn’t exist in a bubble, he’s read/seen/heard all the praise the media throws his way (deserved) plus the exaggerations (3rd best PF, bla bla…) he never fails to glare at refs anytime he misses a shot, lately he raises his arms in a sign of disbelief when refs don’t bail him out.
    Gotta earn their calls in this league, Beast. Being a de facto rookie playing on LA’s other team doesn’t give u carte blanche.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    I love Blake Griffin the player, and Blake Griffin the sh*t-talker.

  • T-Money

    Darksaber: what’s up with Dirk?! He’s been out for a while now. Is it more serious than people thought?

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    T-Money just read my mind. I was about to comment-whine about the Mavs moving back Dirk’s return on a daily basis. Ish is starting to gnaw at the back of my mind like an Alien in Ripley’s gut.
    Prudence or a cover up of a major knee injury? I can’t tell. But with two of their starters out (3 if u count Roddy, and i would) and Ason unable to increase his offensive output (surprise!), Mavs are in a bind.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Jukai…Exactly. They have the confidence and know what it takes and when exactly to turn it on. It’s a swagger thing because they are not focused on now they are focused on April, May, and June. However, Miami has to make a statement each and every night because they have never been there before and do not YET know what it takes to win it all. The Celtics are guilty of the same thing also and before this year the spurs too.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Anyone heard about the Nash to Dallas or ATL rumor?

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    I also heard of Billups being bought out possibly by Denver or NJ if traded. That would be sick if he landed with Boston, Miami, or LA.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Allball
    Didn’t you ask me about last year?
    Oh you meant comparing is on the team this year to cavs last year. Mu bad I thought youbmeant the two teams last year which is why is used delonte.
    This year it’s about equal. I think west is better than anyone on the cavs squad last ear easily. Okafor is like andy with shotblocking but less energy. The cavs were deeper but the of the players who played regulalry the teams are close to even.
    if paul wins 60 games it would be an amazing feat. Just like it was for bron two years in a row.

  • T-Money

    Kap: a statement to who exactly? who’s not taking miami seriously at this point? and i think d-wade knows what it takes to win it all. seriously, to me, this is all sports radio bs talk. there are no statement games in the regular season, the win vs milwaukee is as important as the win vs. orlando or lakers. the only two things that should matter to contending teams are: 1- win as many games as you can to secure HCA. 2- (and this is often overlooked) try to find solutions to matchup problems vs other contenders. the result of one game vs a rival is inconsequential, especially if it’s close.

  • JTaylor21

    Swagger my a**. I love how laker homers think that this team could just “turn it on” whenever they feel like it and waltz into the finals. There are a set of circumstances that have to occur for a team to win the whole thing and none of them include coasting and turn it on when you feel like it. Remember they are trying to get back to the finals for the fourth straight season which hasn’t been do since the 80s celtics, so think about that before you start thinking it’s written in stone.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Yeah I meant this year, and I agree about West, he has been great under the radar this year.
    I think the Cavs had more talent last year than NO do this year, but if the Hornets win 60 games this year ill never watch a game again.
    What I think is interesting is that CP has been the leader in PER all year so far, and Bron was the leader in PER all last year, yet CP is rarely even in the MVP watch on NBA.com, and never near the top of the ESPN awards watch.

  • T-Money

    kap: honestly i don’t care THAT much for billups in miami. it would be nice but i don’t see it as essential. i’d LOVE for someone like dalembert to get bought out. (big AND mobile)

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    David West is not slept on

  • http://www.dimemag.com Royal

    It was nice watching Kobe and Monta go back and forth in crunch time…. Everyone loves Blake right now,but give him a couple years and a twitter account and then he will have his fair share of haters

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    I not making that statement as a laker fan. The lakers have even admitted it themselves and I think Miami is trying to still make a statement and prove all the doubters wrong bc there are still lots of them.
    @ JTaylor…If you really think that since no team has made it to finals four straight years since the 80s that it can’t be done that is silly. That is a fact with absolutely no substance to it. The West is weak as I’ve ever seen it and I’m not buying the Spurs. If they were the defensive spurs of the past I would be worried but now they are all about offense plus Duncan has not looked very good this year.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Blake played great defense on Lebron when they were matched up together.

  • http://www.slamonline.com melvin ely

    Nah Kap, if Chauncey is getting bought out and have his pick on where to play next, even money’ll get you that he pulls an Ilgauskus and goes back to Denver. He’s said time and again he wants to retire a Nugget. And Eboy, don’t worry bout the Filipino thing, I’m Filipino and I didn’t see anything derogatory about the remark. It’s all good.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    nbk – Maybe not by you, I have heard a lot of opposing team broadcasters discuss how his numbers and play have dipped. Truthfully, his numbers have dropped but his play has been great, and consistent. Know one is going to score 20+ nightly because of the pace NO play at.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    i’m just throwing this out there, Carmelo not only won’t sign with New Jersey period, he most definitely will refuse to sign if Chauncey wants a buy-out. this trade not happening as constructed

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    AllBall
    PER can sometimes overvalue efficiency.
    I think Paul needs to shoot more than 11 times for that team, even with their slow pace. His efficiency means a higher PER, and it’s impressive.
    But, to me, you shouldn’t get MVP dropping 17 and 10 or 11. I know Nash already set a precedent that establishes those as acceptable numbers, but I disagree with that. I think you need top put up transcendent numbers to be MVP. Now, if Paul was putting up all of his current stats, with three more points, I would agree that it’s a travesty that he’s not being touted as MVP.
    And yes, I agree that he’s incredibly valuable to that team. But, I still need to see better numbers because to me, MVP is still about who is the best player TOTAL in the league.

  • JTaylor21

    Keep on thinking that is easy to do something that the rockets/bulls/80s Lakers/00 Laker teams never accomplished but you expect a laker team with an undercover chucker who’s bound to go rogue and revert back to his me-first role to do it. Also, BGriff played great defense on Bron the same way Kome played great defense on Ellis, oh wait that didn’t happen.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Royal…shootout bt Kobe and Monta was great but you could see Monta get frustrated as hell by Kobe and the refs.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Did anyone see Bledsoe send Lebron’s shot last nite? That was sick!!!

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    NBK
    Have you forgotten the outrage on this site a few years back about West and his placement on the Top 50?
    Wait, don’t you dislike West’s game? So you’re saying he’s not slept on because he doesn’t deserve much more praise?
    You know I disagree, but meh.
    T-MOney
    Eric doesn’t need any new players because he can barely figure out how to use the players he has. Dude is reminding me of why he pissed me off in jerking around Beasley’s minutes. That’s a stubborn little man.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    oh fa real? he havin his best season as a pro, per minute…I just don’t think he is slept on because he is consistently overrated

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @JTaylor…We all know why Chicago didn’t go to the finals four times straight and LA is the closest thing in our modern day to a dynasty so you are over valuing that fact especially with the league at a competitive low this year.

  • JTaylor21

    I’m done, you can never reason with a kobetard, those fools are stuck in their ways.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    @kap: duncan doesnt look good this year because with how good the teams been playing he hasnt had to be. In their losses he has posted good numbers so it’s really not his fault, i would know he’s on my fantasy team so im looking at him with undeniable scrutiny lol.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I dislike West being put in the top 50 every single year. And i’m pretty outspoken about it. I don’t mind his game, he is a very good pick & pop power forward. He matches up terribly against ultra big 4′s and also the athletic ones, gets outrebounded by his opposition on a nightly basis. But this year he is making the Hornets better while he is on the court (something you can’t say about last season) and deserves some praise. I didn’t know people were saying he was playing below average for himself, that is blatantly false, i thought ya’ll were referring to West’s reputation in general, because that is not slept on

  • LA Huey

    Heat deserved to lose. I was actually rooting for this streak to end either with Clips or Nuggs. I want to see the fire lit against Chicago. Clippers did a great job of milking the unlimited turbo once they caught fire.

  • http://Slamonline.com Sergio

    @jtaylor21 let’s count…2000 that’s one. 2001 that’s two. 2002, three. 2003, four. Not 80′s. Not even 90′s. SMH

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    somebody keeps posting with my name.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    “unlimited turbo” is classic.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Allen
    You know what, PER might be doing that in this case. He has started to shoot more in general. Your right 17, 10 aren’t typical MVP numbers, but CP3 is putting those number’s up in a totally different system than Nash, which to me makes it more impressive.
    If his points were at 20, and his assists were at 10 instead of the 9.7/8 or whatever they are now, then I think he would be in the thick of it. If NO happened to make another run like they did at the start of the year he would jump straight back to near the top of the race in my opinion.
    nbk
    If you coming at it from a view that he is over rated then he isn’t slept on, he just is what he is. Around 18 points, 8 rebounds a night, efficiently. Great thing about him is you no more or less what you are going to get out of him, bad thing is NO could do with him getting 20 plus, but the offense becomes too static when it goes through him constantly.

  • JTaylor21

    Uhm the spurs went to the finals in 03 not the lakers then the lakers went the next year and got waxed by Det. Reason #55 why people hate laker fans; they don’t even know the history of the team.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Darksaber, I see the same thing from Griffin now about feeling himself a little too much these days. But then I never really got the impression that he was overly humble, even at Oklahoma.
    But kid is dope to watch, and it’s kinda refreshing seeing a rookie talk mad sh*t like that.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Just wanna give a shout out to the Lopez brothers, I was at that game last night, and everytime those two were matched up against one another they tried to score. ANd the other looked thoroughly dissappointed when they didn’t get stops. Both have attitude problems also, lol, both threw mini tantrums last night, Brook even sat the last 5 minutes of the 4th and didn’t come back till 2 minutes into overtime

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    D West does have trouble with the long 4′s. A lot of trouble most nights, as his strength is countered. In OKC earlier in the year Durant guarded him in the fourth and consistently blocked his shot.

  • http://slamonline.com riggs

    that was me not allen @ 12:08pm. Seriously slam yall need to get with disqus comment system because this is ridiculous

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    If David West was somewhat decent on the boards and defense I would give him a pass. But 7 rebounds per game, at 34 minutes a night is not acceptable, especially when he is giving up like 16PPG to his opponent. His production then falls to what 3 points and -2 rebounds if you weigh him against his matchup.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    NBK
    I was wondering why he was on the bench. Brook has taken a gigantic step backwards this year. It’s really weird.

  • http://www.dimemag.com Royal

    Kap: the only minor setback Monta has is that he is 3-4 inches shorter than who he plays against…. in the third Kobe just bullied him in the high post area 3-4 times until Dorrell Wright was forced to switch on him. And in the fourth Kobe just shot over him or forced Monta into a foul. But Ellis is still a beast , just an undersized one.

  • FERR79

    I absolutely LOVE watching Lakers/Warriors games. Kobe and Monta going back and forth has to be the most consistently entertaining match up in the league. Eric Gordon is one of my favorite young players, along with Blake of course…@Eboy and Melvin Ely: You may not have been bothered by his comment but it didn’t sit well with me. It has nothing to do with the fact that my dad is Filipino. It’s just stupid. What if someone said, “Lebron is a black simpleton”? Of course it wouldn’t and shouldn’t be ok with anyone.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Monta will never be able to match up with Kobe, which is why I wasn’t too impressed with Kobe’s 4th. Big numbers against the Knicks/Suns/Warriors are pretty much expected to me.

  • http://stapledesign.com Spaceship Jay

    Karma is b*tch. No one? Anyone? I’m surprised.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Allen – Brook threw a fit yesterday because Sasha, Jordan Farmar, and Devin Harris couldn’t get him the ball in the post, WITH GORAN DRAGIC guarding him….So idk if I would have been able to restrain myself either. It was putrid, Lopez was torching Phoenix in the first half, and not like he was working for it, just catch one or two dribbles and a turn-around, easy peasy. Then the second half rolled around and they just completely could not get him the ball, and then Gentry went small, using Frye as his center and Dudley as the 4, which apparently scared avery johnson into sitting Lopez and playing a Harris, Vujacic, Farmar, Outlaw, Humphries lineup for the last half quarter of regulation.

  • Jackie Moon

    This game will be known as “The Karma Game” in Clipper lore.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Craziest stat of the year. I think Brook Lopez has had only like two games this year with 10 or more boards.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @JTaylor…I wasn’t even trying to be bias when talking about the Lakers but I apologize.

  • T-Money

    David Thorpe is his latest ESPN chat seemed to be implying that there was more to the story on Brook Lopez and why he has regressed so much. Dude has not been happy this year.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    If I pulled a Lebron and said I didn’t make the Filipino comment…….nah! You cats are way too sensitive. I’ve been making the same joking statement about dude for 3 seasons…..until now no one gave a fu*k about Spo or the Heat around here so it was never addressed….so keep your crusade out of my backyard. It has no merit.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I wonder if anyone yelled that during the crusades….

  • Jackie Moon

    Folks just don’t know you Eboy … it’s like in Family Guy, where they refer to the reporter as “Asian reporter Tricia Takanawa”

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    nbk – you know that David West stat, where you get that? Does it tell you the opposing starting PF’S numbers, or the actual numbers of guys who he was guarding?

  • cris

    Clips are talented down the roster all the way to Aminu and Bledsoe. They’ve been good 8-3 in the last three weeks. The chemistry is there, Baron has been better, Gordon has been huge in the second half and Blake is… Blake.

    This team is going to be scary good. Blake brings an energy to the arena that everyone feeds off of.

    They need to go something like 30-16 to make the playoffs… may not happen this year, but they’re going to be amazing next season.

    Bout time Clipper Nation!

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    82games

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    it’s classified as opponent-counterpart production.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Sterling will do sumthn to eff the team up. I guarantee it.

  • T-Money

    you can’t win in the nba with incompetent management. clippers have had talent before. you just watch, they’ll eff it up.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllDayEveryDay

    Adam, do you just examine box scores and that’s it? At least mention certain defining moments of the games. For example, Baron Davis finally dunking in a game in a long while and playing great, and especially Kobe going into his clutch mode at the end of the game shitting all over Ellis. These Post-Ups have been half-assed lately. At least I didn’t spot the usual grammar/spelling errors.

  • FERR79

    I haven’t been commenting here for the past three seasons. I would have said something every single time the dumb a** comment was made. What exactly does following the Heat have to do with bringing up a guy’s ethnicty in reference to his percieved stupidity? It was stupid. Moving along…

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Do the Clips really even need Chris Kaman anymore? It’s time to make room for Deandre.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllDayEveryDay

    Adam, do you just read Box scores every night to do these post-ups? At least mention certain defining moments such as Baron Davis actually dunking and playing well, and Kobe going into clutch mode late in the 4th against Ellis, and Dwight Howard missing 2 crucial free throws at the end. How are these things not mentioned? These Post-ups have consistently been written with no effort. At least the usually grammar/spelling errors are not there.. I think..

  • FERR79

    @ Jackie Moon: Not even close to being the same. They don’t say “Simpleton Asian reporter Trisha Takanawa”

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Maybe AllDayEveryDay should try writing the Post Up. This is like the third time I see you complaining about it.
    And co-sign kap and t-money. The Clips have had talent and teams with potential before.
    They will screw it up again, trust.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I’ve been called a WHITE a*shole on this site probably 20 times in the years I’ve posted here……’cause, well, it’s true.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Anyone remember Odom/Miles/Brand/Maggette/Q.Richardson? Those guys were just as fun to watch.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    what Eboy said is in no way insulting to filipino’s or anyone for that matter. Overreactive American, tall mexican, genius indian, dumb canadian, none of those are insulting or complementing an entire group of people. goodness people, stop looking for things to make you angry

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    And don’t worry, after today he is either going to be known as Arnel Spoelstra or Spo Pineda.

  • Jackie Moon

    @Ferr79 True – Eboy just doesn’t choose his words very carefully – he don’t care if he’s offending anyone or not. Which isn’t always a good thing. What nbk said is logically true, but most of us would never dare say some combinations of those – notice he didn’t list “dumb black”, because you know that is a no-no. But yet, if someone gets pissed by “Filipino Simpleton” they’re accused of being too sensitive. How about flipping it the other way guys, and being a little bit more sensitive instead of accusing others of being too sensitive. It’s a two way street. It’s not weak to care a little bit about what others think.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Eboy is white? No!!!!!!! I knew he was the MAN.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Go back to china, jukai…… …… Spurs win

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    It was clearly said in jest. Just to be clear Eboy commented a little later it was meant in jest.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    This is becoming unbelievable.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    your going to hear things that are actually prejudice and racist all the time, get upset about that. When you get upset about something that was clearly not insulting to the group, then you either have to get completely outraged when actual prejudice raises its head, or you will manage to make every comment look like it carries the same weight. taking credibility away from yourself as the complainer down the road. Like the boy who cried wolf

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Jackie….while normally you’re a half-wit who I like (that was a joke since everyone’s on the rag today), you’re so wrong it’s silly. 90% of the time I say sh*t for reaction. Eboy is a character. He’s also the real world guys mouthpiece talking about ball here when I actually settle into an actual conversation worth a sh*t. You can bet your ass that almost everything that’s typed by me has a motive. Everything. Believe that.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @nbk…sounds similar to the lebron situation earlier in the season about race.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    There is no reason to sugar coat everything One say around these parts, but at the same time I kind of agree with Jackie Moon; does it really take that much of an extra effort to try not to offend other people. There are plenty of things that can be true and not necessarily said to degrade a whole group of people, but at the same time be read into as offending because of historical stereotypes, racism and the like. The ‘dumb black’ example is a good one, and if you call a rich Jewish guy with a big nose for a big-nosed rich Jew I am pretty sure you are offending some people even though when talking about that one guy, it might just be the describing the guy. So let’s all at least try not offend the others, I am pretty sure it doesn’t hurt to try.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Ok, wait, I feel like the whole idea of context is lost in this discussion.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    It has officially turned into a Conservative Convention. Wow. While you glowing representatives of humanity are at it, why don’t you stop referring to Lebron as a loser pus*sy, Kobe a ball hogging b*ch, Allen Iverson as a terrible example of “kkeping it real” from the hood, Stephon Marbury as that crazy a*shole, Shaq as a giant, lazy loser, KG as a sc*m of the earth for his intensity and every other slight afforded to the guys we discuss everyday.

  • http://yahoo.com The Ambassador

    @ Everybody isn’t it can of bad when The Heatles are combing for 80% of Miami points.
    @ Eboy do you like Filipinos?
    This is hard for me to say but watching Clippers games isn’t that bad. Griffen and Gordan are carrying this teams to new hights and being the 8th seed in the West wouldnt be a dream no more because they can actaully do it the way they been playing recently all the Clippers need to do is win games in the road and they might have a chance at the 8th seed in the West.
    IT WAS A MIRACLE THOUGH THAT BOTH THE LAKERS AND THE CLIPPERS WON IN THE SAME NIGHT!
    LOVE LIVE KING MAMBA!!!
    LONG LIVE KING MBENGA OF THE CONGO!!!

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    This is a basketball discussion board not NAACP so lets please discuss basketball.

  • http://slamonline.com nate

    Breaking News…….Derrick Rose has passed rajon rondo in all-star voting ! (Its about dam time nba fans woke up)

  • LakeShow

    Eboy is a African simpelton

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Well, how can you tell people what is not insulting to them?
    That’s a little funny.
    Is it like a majority vote? If the majority decides something is insulting, it’s insulting?
    I noticed the Filipino thing, didn’t say anything because with my past rep it wouldn’t have been taken seriously.
    It doesn’t really add anything to the comment to say he’s Filipino.
    It’s like saying is a slow white guy. You could just remove the “white” and make the same point. Or saying someone is a “smart” black guy. Again, remove the color designation, and it makes just as much sense.
    I wasn’t deeply offended, but I probably would have had Filipino been replaced with black, or if I was Filipino.
    My two cents.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Is it possible that The Ambassador is related to The Philosopher?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And I think it’s a slippery slope when other people try to dictate to you what should get you upset, what your reaction should be when you get upset, and threaten to ignore you if you don’t listen to their directives.
    I mean, it’s a free country so you can take that attitude, but given this country’s history, I’m thinking that it might be time to start erring on the side of caution since Americans, by and large, haven’t shown themselves to be properly versed in what is and is not offensive. All it takes is a cursory glance at history to determine that truth.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Oh Lord….Allen, this has never registered with you EVERY OTHER TIME I’VE SAID THIS (which is normally everytime I criticize Spo)which has been going on three full seasons! But because today someone found it to be…..offensive, now it’s topical to you?

    Actually, when SLAM printed “The All-White Guy Team” way back in the beginnings of the magazine (for anyone that may have been a fan back then), any white man worth his salt should have boycotted the mag due to a piece based in comedy, even though it was meant to be insulting?

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Black is color, race, Filipino is nativity, culture. How is that difference being overlooked? Its wholly different to call someone a slow white guy, then a slow european.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Amare Stoudemire has also passed up KG!
    Which means, if this holds up until ASG, the Eastern starting line-up will be –

    PG – Derrick Rose
    SG – Dwyane Wade
    SF – LeBron James
    PF – Amare Stoudemire
    C – Dwight Howard

    DAMN, SON. Has there EVER been a more athletic starting all-star squad top to bottom??

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Eboy if you’re a character, you could have at least made yourself a little younger. And how the hell is stating someone’s nationality offensive? LEAVE EBOY ALONE! JUST LEAVE HIM ALONE! Lz and Jackie are you guys still fuming over people calling Toni Kukoc the Croatian Sensation? Or Rick Smits being called the Flying Dutchman? Attaching someone’s nationality is not derogatory in any way so just stop it. And damn you too for making me defend Eboy.

  • http://slamonline.com adam figman

    AllDayEveryDay: The “no effort” thing made me laugh, so thanks for that. There were 12 games last night, so no, I didn’t watch every one simultaneously, although I might’ve tried. If you have a method of doing that, I’d love to hear it. Or if you’d like to send me 11 or so TVs, well, I’m down, and I promise I won’t miss a single second of action. When I do miss a game I read the box scores, read the recaps, watch the highlights, and scour the internet/twitter for any super relevant info. There’s only so much room to include every detail/turning point of each game, so yeah, stuff gets missed. Sorry if this offends you. Now maybe you can start using the comments to talk about, you know, basketball, instead of how terrible the Post Up is everyday? Trust me, it’s much more fun.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    The only reason any of that would be insulting is if you personally have some kid of negative connotation with the group involved. If your operating under the assumption that everybody is equal, hearing filipino simpleton should just sound like he is talking about a filipino person who is not intelligent. Its surely an insult to Spoesltra, but not an entire culture, unless you like to generalize simple comments. Other then that, its an adjective. Like calling grant hill an old blue devil.

  • http://yahoo.com The Ambassador

    @ Allenp WORD BROTHER WORD IM FIST PUMPING RIGHT NOW!!!
    @Eboy im not related to the Philosopher.

  • Jackie Moon

    @eboy – why don’t you stop referring to Lebron as a loser pus*sy, Kobe a ball hogging b*ch, Allen Iverson as a terrible example of “keping it real” from the hood, Stephon Marbury as that crazy a*shole, Shaq as a giant, lazy loser, KG as a sc*m of the earth for his intensity and every other slight afforded to the guys we discuss everyday.
     
    that’s exactly what I’m saying, and it’s probably why I can’t stand some of your comments, although your passion for basketball is apparent

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Enig….the only lineup I can see that would be comparable was the 96 Eastern Conference squad that had Shaq, Penny, Grant Hill, Pippen and Jordan all in their primes.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Eboy
    I just told you, I noticed it before, thought about saying something, but predicted the very reaction that is now happening, and decided I didn’t care enough to waste the keystrokes and brainpower.
    Ethnicity and race are not seen as being on the same level in America, but that’s not the case everywhere. In many other countries, your ethnicity is far more important than your skin color. Hell, even among some communities here it’s more important, which is why Cuban-Americans who to all appearances appear white, still get classified as Hispanic.
    Furthermore, y’all are missing the point. What Jackie Moon and LZ said was simple. The comment about Spoelstra’s ethnicity really was unnecessary and pointless. It’s not like we don’t know who he is. Why is his ethnicity a necessary adjective to let us know he’s a coach? That’s not even close to the same thing as the “Croation sensation” or “German Juggernaut” or whatever.
    Bottom line, this is an instance where you can stop doing something that has no real value to you, but could in fact be offensive to some people. You can either choose to make very, VERY small sacrifice of freedom, or you can stand on your right as an American to say whatever you want to say as long as you want to say it.
    It’s a simple choice really, and totally up to you.
    But, don’t start b)itching and moaning about other people exercising their American right to call you out for using words that offend or bother them.
    The sword is double edged. Nobody prevents you from saying what you like, and you prevent no one from saying what they like.
    It’s a simple equation.

  • FERR79

    @ Eboy, Kap, and especially nbk: NONE of you have any right to dictate what the hell I should be offended by. NBK, based on your past posts you admit you’re pretty young so don’t you dare try to talk to me about life and life experiences. Kap, if you have a problem with the issues of people of color being discussed here talk to Eboy, emphasis on the boy, about making comments about people’s ethnicity. It doesn’t have anything to do with basketball and he is no Seth Mcfarlane. If he said it to get a rise out of people he should adress his issue of being a grown man constantly seeking attention

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Jackie, if you think I’m the only one that says things like that, then you’re obsessed with me…which is either creepy or sexy. I haven’t decided yet. BTW, I’ve only called two of those guys those names!

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    oh man i just got a horrible itch to go buy a VHS player so I can watch that game. Found all my old All Star Game tapes the other day…

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    And that 96 team would demolish the current Eastern Conference squad.

  • http://yahoo.com The Ambassador

    Im suprised Mbengas name was in the all star ballot.
    Imagine Kobe,Cp3,Durant,Griffen,and MBENGA I think that would compare to the 96 Eastern Confernce line up.

  • http://yahoo.com The Ambassador

    Wasnt***

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I’m offended that you guys are offended. You are violating my 1st Amendment right as an American. Think about it and talk basketball again.

  • FERR79

    @Allenp: Well said.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Prime Penny=D-Rose

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Eboy
    That joke failed.
    And.
    Prime Penny > D Rose.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    FERR79, just to clarify, before today, no one that comments here knew who you were. Not that we do, it would be pretty apparent that you have no ability to speak about the game as all you’ve done is criticize me. If you come back again, have some knowledge of the game handy. Enjoy your day/evening.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Prime Scottie>Lebron

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Michael>>Wade

  • Scott

    no

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    @Eboy: Hey, hitler, instead of just b*tching, be sensitive and tone it down a bit.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Prime Shaq>>>>Superboy

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    If Eboy called Spoelstra “one smart filipino” would you have said anything?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I guess Amare gets the nod over prime Grant Hill.

  • FERR79

    Violating your 1st amendment rights? That’s the first time I’ve actually laughed at one of your comments. Someone else using their 1st amendment right to free speech violates yours? Lmao. Ok, I think I’m done lol

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    And actually, I’ve made a comment about you using Spo’s ethnicity before too, when you said the Heat’s rotations were odd and you “wondered if it was a Filipino thing” although I’m misquoting you because you spelled it “philipino”
    If you have a problem with Filipinos, I’m not going to try and change your mind, just don’t spout it over here, bro.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Jesus Christ, Jukai, you are a fuc*ing twit sometimes.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    And you’re a scumbag. Just stop referring to his nationality whenever you have a problem with him and this wont be an issue.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Eboy if we’re talking about pure athleticism and not over all play then MJ would be the only player more athletic then their 2011 ASG counterpart.

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    Eboy how the hell can you compare Prime Grant Hill (which never really happened because of the injuries) and Amare (who became a completely different player because of the injuries). Despite the injury parallel they have nothing in common about their games. Im not going to speak on the other stuff, but that is just a failure of basketball knowledge right their.

  • FERR79

    @Eboy: What are you, the mayor of Slamonline?lol GtFOH. I’ll comment on whatever I please. FYI, my initial post was about Laker/Warriors game. Perhaps you weren’t paying attention because you were too busy looking for the reactions to your dumb comment.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    A scumbag, huh? Why cause you can get away with Jew jokes, cause you are one, although it may offend any other Jewish readers that come through here. Think before you speak, you witless dou*hebag. You called me hitler as if that sh*t rings funny with ANYONE? Your common sense is about as useful as your basketball knowledge.

  • JTaylor21

    Prime Deke > DHow
    Prime Zo > DHow
    Prime DRob >>>> DHow
    Prime PEwing >> DHow
    Prime AGilmore > DHow
    Prime MMalone >>>>>>>>>>>>DHow
    I mean I could go all day long with this ish.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    96 MJ more athletic then 28 year old Dwyane Wade? Does anyone remember how athletic Jordan was post retirement number 1?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    One comment about ball, FERR. One. Stop directing comments to me so I don’t have to interact with you. You’ll be happier that way.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    NBK
    I didn’t say anything about him calling the man a Filipino simpleton, so it’s unlikely I would have said something about him calling him a Filipino genius. I still would have found it distasteful, but I don’t call out folks for everything they do that I find distasteful because you have to pick your battles.
    Again, why do you think you have the right to tell people how and when to get offended? And, why do you think adding someone’s race or ethnicity is needed to describe characteristics like their intelligence or lack thereof?
    Oh yeah.
    Prime Hakeem >Prime Wilt > Prime Shaq
    Prime Lebron > Prime Pippen
    Prime Bird > Prime Magic (lol)
    Prime Isiah > Prime Stockton
    Prime TMac > Prime Grant Hill
    Prime Iverson > Prime Kobe
    Now chew on that suckers.

  • Max

    Tim Duncan > The Rest

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I was trying to match them up by potential imaginary matchup on the court, BET. Nothing more. I figured Grant could play PF in that lineup, although he’d get eaten by Amare. Sorry for any confusion.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    Oh, you offended by the Hitler comment bro? SO SORRY but I have 1st amendment right/everyone is too PC and too serious/I’ve called people hitler before and no one cared/excuse excuse excuse excuse.
    Or, maybe I’ll be civil, apologize, say I overreacted/didn’t mean nothing of it, and wont do it against because it offended you.
    I dunno which one I’m gonna chose!

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    Eboy that isnt fair because Amare has so much size on Grant it isnt even funny. Pre Knee Surgery Amare v Kemp v Blake Griffin in a NBA Ballers Styled 1 on 1 on 1 is what I want to see.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Scottie wasn’t super athletic? Penny (at that time) wasn’t super athletic? Shaq (at that time) wasn’t super athletic? Michael may not have been as athletic as D-Wade today, at that particular age, but he wouldn’t have been run off the court. Grant was fast and could jump like a motherfuc*er at that time. That was before injuries started to get him.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Wasn’t talking to you Allen. I was saying this whole thing would have never even come up if he called him something positive. Its the negative infront of a nationality that makes people generalize, mentioning the nationality as a describing word on the other hand would likely have been ignored. And I never once said Eboy was right for including his nationality, but if you can understand the english language, and read sentences rationally, that was obviously not insulting the entire Filipino nation. just because people choose how they react doesn’t mean they react appropriately. What gives FRR or whatever his name is the right to tell Eboy his comment was stupid if I don’t have the right to tell him he took it out of context?

  • JTaylor21

    Prime Zeke > Prime Magic > Prime Stock
    Prime Baylor > Prime Pip > Prime Dr.J > Prime Bird
    Prime Malone > Prime TD > Prime KG
    Prime MMalone > Prime Shaq > Prime Wilt
    Prime Kareem >>>>>>>>Prime Walton
    Prime Hakeem >>>>>> Every center.
    How you like me now!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    The “rules” on this site are obviously nothing more than decoration. Cut the pretense. Just take them down and replace with them with some .gifs or naked women.

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    Allen, you have no idea how wrong I think you are about the Magic/Larry thing. No idea.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Understood, idiot. Bringing up a man in jest and using him as a joke subject, although he was responsible for slaughtering 6 million people, is outstandingly funny. I got it. Didn’t JTaylor get killed for bringing up the Arizona shooters name in a comment yesterday? Yeah, keep that intelligence going.

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    Co-sign Myles. The rules actually scared me away from commenting because I didnt want my legendary screenname banned/lose season preview privileges but if nobody else is following them their is no reason to not let this place go back to the wild west of basketball sites that it once was.

  • FERR79

    Co-sign Allenp and FERR79 said to Eboy and NBK about Eboy’s stupid comment… Now, about those all-star returns: Amare totally deserves to start ahead of KG. I’m not just saying this as a Knicks fan. I kinda wanted Rondo to start over Rose. I made it very clear how I felt about those two as point guards, but also because I think the game would be better to watch with Rondo starting. Imagine how fun it would be to see him passing to Lebron, D-Wade, and Amare? There would be more higlights for sure. That being said, Rose is no less deserving. Either pg is a fine choice for a starter.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Myles, seriously, I’ve tried to get back to ball, and you of all people know I’ve done worse than this harmless (well, not to everyone) comment today.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I can’t figure out of Allen was being serious or not with the Bird/Magic thing with his LOL sitting next to it.

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    JTaylor what are you smoking? Prime Isiah over Prime Magic? Prime Moses Malone over Prime Shaq? NO.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    nbk: It’s all about how you say it, dude. Eboy is so clueless on why we’ve never called him out before, but that’s the REASON we haven’t called him out: we didn’t think anything of it until he kept saying it. “Oh, Spo, messing up the rotations, so stubborn, must be a Filipino thing”
    “Uh, okay Eboy”
    “Oh Spo, messing up the game, you Filipino simpleton!!!”
    “Uh, okay Eboy”
    How many times he gonna bring it up?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Co-sign BET.

  • Zoom

    FERR79 Posted: Jan.13 at 3:26 pm was my comment! Slam, get your ish together.

  • Max

    Paul Arizin >

  • JTaylor21

    I mean who in their right mind really thinks that Prime Bird was better than Prime Magic? I mean come on, behavior like that is what gets you sent to the nut house. I mean if the celtics drafted Magic instead of bird, I guarantee they would have come away with more than 3 chips in the 80s and you could take that with the bank with ya.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    NBK
    You didn’t tell him he took it out of context. You told him he didn’t have the right to be offended and nobody should be offended in fact you wrote:
    what Eboy said is in no way insulting to filipino’s or anyone for that matter. Overreactive American, tall mexican, genius indian, dumb canadian, none of those are insulting or complementing an entire group of people. goodness people, stop looking for things to make you angry
    Then you wrote:

    your going to hear things that are actually prejudice and racist all the time, get upset about that. When you get upset about something that was clearly not insulting to the group, then you either have to get completely outraged when actual prejudice raises its head, or you will manage to make every comment look like it carries the same weight. taking credibility away from yourself as the complainer down the road. Like the boy who cried wolf

    To me, that reads like you’re telling people what they find offensive, and warning them that if they don’t agree with you now, they won’t get your attention later when something really bad happens.
    I don’t know, maybe I misunderstood your intentions, so let me know what they were.
    And, you don’t have to insult an entire group of people for something to be insulting. You can make a derogatory comment about one person, like that “shyster Jew” and be JUST AS INSULTING.
    Y’all have some funny ideas.

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    I love how this site never changes. Half of the commentors try to instill some sort of morality/values when they themselves just talk the same sh!t on other articles and the other half make/debate lists. Good times!

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I’m being serious. Myles convinced me the other day that Bird was better. Have you really looked at Bird’s numbers from his prime? And we all know dude was smart and a winner.
    He was better, and yes I know they played different positions with different roles, but I also know Magic dominated the hell out of that ball.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Jukai, answer my questions about the Hitler comment and your penchant for trying to get away with Jew jokes, otherwise you too can stop directing comments at me.

  • Max

    Pete Maravich >

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    How can you make random guarantees?
    Plus, that ignores the fact that the West was softer than the East in those days.
    Magic got five with overall better talent and in a softer conference, Bird got three.
    I used to think Magic was better until Myles hit me with the numbers and I really considered them. Look at Bird’s assist numbers and rebounds. Look at his field goal percentages. I mean, he should score more since he was he first option on the squad, but he’s putting up 25 a game even whem McHale is dropping 23-24. He’s grabbing double digit boards ont he same squad with McHale and Parrish.
    They had to deal with the Bulls, the Pistons, the Sixers and the Cavs. That ain’t a cakewalk. Don’t forget about Bernard King’s Knicks. Come on, look at this issue again.

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    JTaylor, I dont know much about your screenname, but what type of drugs are you on? Prime Magic on the Celtics wouldnt have worked. The Celtics were more heavily constructed around Bird than the Lakers were constructed around Magic. In the beginning Kareem was the centerpiece and Magic was just something to put next to him, it wasnt until after the first NBA finals Magic won that you could say they were on equal footing for the future of the franchise. But Magic on Bird’s Celtics wouldnt have worked at face value and their would need to be a lot of roster tweeking to make it work.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    Look, whatever, we’ve yelled at Eboy, he wont admit ANY mistakes, hopefully he’ll be smarter with his word choices. I’ll drop it. For now.
    Anyway, here are my bold basketball statements for the day:
    Prime Ray Allen > Prime Reggie Miller
    Prime Bird > Prime Magic
    Prime Charles Barkley > Prime Karl Malone
    Prime Steve Nash > Kevin Johnson/Billups/Mark Price/Mark Jackson/Hardaway/Cheeks/DJ/Strickland/anyone you guys name
    Prime Rick Barry > Prime Dr J = Prime Lebron James > Prime Scottie Pippen
    Prime Bill Walton > Prime Ewing, Prime Robinson, Prime Moses Malone
    Prime Wilt Chamberlain = Prime Kareem > Prime Shaq
    We done.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Better at what, exactly? Shooting? Definitely. Leadership? Nope. Passing, Larry was outstanding, but Magic created like very few others. A natural scorer? Larry probably has the edge, but Magice never really needed to put in huge scoring totals. There is probably a tiny % that seperates them, but I don’t know how you can definitively say Bird is better. I’d like to hear the argument for it though.

  • JTaylor21

    Bet, like I said Prime Zeke was better than Prime Magic and I’m sticking to it. Go back and watch the 88 and 89 finals and you will see that Zeke was hands down the best player on the floor. People like to downplay what he did becuase of his gm days but during his playing days, dude was a wolf among sheep. As for MMalone over Shaq, it’s really a personall prefence becuase I saw him destroy Kareem during the 83 finals and carried a decent 81 rockets squad to the finals and dominated a strong Bos frontline. Shaq dominated in the finals but he never faced the same top-notch centers Malone faced.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    Eboy: The hitler comment was out of anger, and I’ll apologize because it was way too harsh and unnecessary… ONCE you apologize for using the Filipino references.
    My Jewish jokes are of course in jest, and you/BETCATS/Tarzan have all poked fun at my heritage and I have no problem with that. If ANYONE got offended with my jokes or asked me to stop them, I would instantly apologize and explain that I meant no harm. Not throw out BS excuses and try and run away from the issue.
    Happy?

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    Larry Bird was a better scorer, rebounder, and defender. Magic was a better passer, ball handler, and he was a more vocal leader so I’ll give him the nod in leadership.
    It’s like comparing 1A to 1B, and if I had to pick who to build my franchise around, I’d pick Magic because of Bird’s injuries and short career.
    But if I had to pick who to use for one season in their prime? Bird.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I meant (in the first part), he described one person, not an entire group – Which is clear in his comment. – And the second part I didn’t mean it to sound like that, as i can see how it does in that light, I was trying to say, that complaining about something like that, something that is part of everyday language (if you don’t hear people use nationality, race, physical features, group associations, as adjectives in everyday speech then I want to know where you live, or what you read from the media) that was clearly not an insult to a group, will take credibility away from you when you have a legitimate concern. I didn’t mean with me, I meant in general. I am not trying to make it seem like my opinion of you carries any weight, I was just saying it as a general aspect of living in the society we do today. Worse stuff is said everywhere, much worse, things like this, that aren’t insulting unless you try and rationalize it as insulting on purpose, are trivial. This is all my opinion ofcourse, I don’t want to sound like my words are necessarily 100% correct or anything like that. Just my opinion, and I apologize for coming off as arrogant

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Prime Tim Hardaway, Penny Hardaway and K.J. > Nash
    Prime Nash > Mark Price
    Ray Allen = Reggie
    Malone > Barkley (Neither of them were winners, Malone put up better stats and had more team success with less.)
    Prime Moses Malone, David Robinson > NBA Bill Walton
    Prime Payton > Prime Kidd
    Prime Payton = Prime Stockton (I know)
    Prime Shaq > Prime Duncan

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    I was trying to stay out of it, but my name was mentioned. Jukai when have I ever made a jew joke about you? Besides occasional honky jokes I make out of love I cant name a time I have done that.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I haven’t hit and run, broham. There’s only one cat here that was accused of it. If I apologized for making a reference to Spoelstra’s heritage, it would be “what a jerk*ff, he doesn’t mean that sh*t” so I won’t. It’s not worth the typed words to those it offended or to my self-conscious. Why insult anyone more?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Bird was Magic’s superior as a rebounder, near equal as a passer, equal as a defender, superior as a shooter. He had to play with players whose talents were not as complimentary as his own.
    I mean, it’s not like the gap was huge, but I now give Bird the slight edge. Convince me I’m wrong.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    BETCAT: It was like a year ago, it was in jest, and I Found it funny. I wasn’t calling you out or anything, sorry if you felt that way.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    not this sh*t again….

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    Allen, I know you dont like Nash. But how in the world can you say he isnt better than Penny? Disregard the cultural icon status and look at the stats/career achievements. And Nash isnt even done yet.

  • JTaylor21

    I’m also amazed whenever I look at Bird’s numbers but Magic was just the better player. I mean during his rookie year he put up 18/7/7 with 3.4 spg (you might need to read that again) then he damn near avg. a trip dup in his 3rd yr (22yrs old) 18/9/9/2.7spg. I guess that people nowadays undervalue and underappreciate the kind of skill and talent it takes to come close to avg. a trip dub and dropping 120+ for a career. Magic was a better defender, a better passer, a better leader, a better winner and he beat bird 2-1 in the finals. Case closed!!!!

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    NBK
    I agree with you that it will impact whether people listen to you.
    The question should be “Is that just?”
    Sometimes it’s easy to sound arrogant in writing, it happens.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    Allen: Barkley in his absolute prime vs Malone in his absolute prime. Malone had Stockton, dunno how that’s more with less….?
    Bill Walton would annihilate Robinson and Malone. But I dunno if I want to get into that with you today! I’d have to break out the old game footage and everything. Can we save that one for later?

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    I don’t want to take this conversation too far off of basketball, but I’d like to get this thought out. I really don’t like the justification of “who are you to tell me what’s offensive?” Obviously no one can tell you what you should be offended by. Everyone has the right to be offended by whatever they want. But if you offend easily, its not realistic to expect others to adjust to your liking. We’re a nation of wet blankets so afraid of offending someone with everything that we say. Merry Christmas has somehow became offensive. We’re taking God out of the Pledge of Allegiance. Don’t say bless you after someone sneezes because they could get offended. Everyone needs to calm the F down.
    That being said, I don’t think this is one of those instances. I initially defended Eboy’s comment but after actually reading what he said, it does come off harsh. And it would be extremely easy to stop doing it. So lets save everyone the time, and just stop doing it.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    * complementary. Sorry for the typo.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    BETCATS
    Nash’s career is light years ahead of Penny’s. It’s not evne close.
    IN ther primes though?
    Penny all day every day. Penny was in the conversation as best in the league when Jordan retired.
    No sane person has ever, EVER considered Nash for best in the League.

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    Alright Jukai i was just making sure everything was all good.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Diesel, I already said I’m going to start calling Spoelstra, Spo Pineda. It’s a reference to the rock band, Journey and their current singer, Arnel Pineda. They hired a sound alike, who happens to be Filipino, who is almost note for note a copy of their original singer, Steve Perry. I mean this in a complimentary way to Spo since he tries to mimic Pat Riley’s coaching style. I imagine this would be lost on 99% of the commenters, but fu*k it, it’s not inflammatory. Unless you don’t like music.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Co-sign Diesel

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    Well Allen are we talking 1 on 1 or 5 on 5? If it is a 1 on 1 battle I will agree and take Penny, but if it is 5 on 5 and I can get a defensive player like a Raja Bell to mask Nash’s shortcomings then I will take Nash.

  • JTaylor21

    @AllenP, did you just sit there and say that Bird was euqal as a passer and defender to Magic? I mean you should get your slam journalism pass revoked for a month for that out of bounds statement. @Juaki, stop it stop it. There’s no way Walton’s dominanting DRob let alone MMalone, no way jose. It would be a close battle but I’m giving the edge to Malone and DRob.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    Allen: I was talking about Tim Hardaway. Prime Penny Hardaway would have absolutely slaughtered Nash, not even close.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    Malone had Stockton and who else?
    You have to define Barkley’s prime.
    If it’s early in his career, he had Dr. J, Moses and I think Cheeks, but I’m not sure.
    In Phoenix he had K.J., Marjele and Dumas. and Ainge.
    In Houston he had Dream and Pippen.
    I don’t think Malone had far more overall talent. I think he put in more work to get in shape and develop his game. Period.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    “Magic” Johnson’s nickname was inevitable….just sayin

  • JTaylor21

    Prime Kidd >> Prime GP
    Prime Stock > Prime GP
    Better get with the program.

  • http://dsfjklfl.com Jukai

    JTaylor: It’s actually pretty widely acknowledged that Bird was a much better defender than Magic. Bird made 3 all-defensive second team nods. Magic gambled on steals and had a habit of just letting defenders go and letting Kareem deal with it. Magic was a ludicrous ball-thief, that’s for sure, but Larry Bird was a better defender.
    Also, Walton is really much better. You said that Walton wasn’t as good as Artis Gilmore, so I REALLY don’t want to debate you on this one, haha. Either you or me have big misconceptions on Walton cause we think so differently of him.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    What did Mario Chalmers think he was going to do against Blake Griffin besides get broke in half?

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Prime rib > prime number > prime suspects > Optimus Prime

  • http://brimartin13@gmail.com Brion

    Kemp>Griffin

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I say Merry Christmas, God Bless You and everything else.
    And if people don’t like it, they can tell me they dont’ like it. And I can say “Ok, I understand.”
    And I keep doing what I feel man enough to do.
    I don’t expect them to change. They are welcome to say what they like and think what they like. Just like me.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Why cause a cat is smaller people always assume he’s getting his a** beat, BC?

  • FERR79

    Again, who the hell is NBK, or whatever your mom named you, that someone has to prove their credibility to? You don’t set the standard for what should and shouldn’t be deemed offensive and frankly, your not important enough for anyone to even care whether or not you approve of a complaint. @ Eboy: Don’t make stupid comments if you don’t like getting checked for it. Immaturity is the only reason you keep defending dumb ish. Again, you aren’t the mayor of Slam. I’ll post as many basketball and non basketball related comments as I please. You two grow up.

  • the nerve

    look, we have 2 gods now. crawford and jukai.
    jukai a racist. he’ll make a racist joke, then try to herb anyone else who do it. fake. but he’s god so

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    BC – I said it earlier, but I pictured Griffin hammering Chalmers into the floor like a nail. Just like in the old Tom and Jerry cartoons. @Enigmatic – you’re slowly drawing me to your side of worrying about this team without Noah. Big men have been killing us in transition.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    If anybody, anybody, thinks there was a huge gap between Bird and Magic on defense, then they weren’t paying attention.
    And I didn’t say Bird was Magic’s equal, I said “near” equal. That’s a qualifier to imply that Magic was better, but not be a landslide.
    I’ve watched games with both of them. Neither was making all-defense. How are you saying Magic was better? Because he averaged a bunch of steals?

  • http://dsfjklf.com Jukai

    Damn, Slam really loves giving me Adam Figman’s information.
    Allen: I mean, having Stockton is a massive, massive bonus. Prime Barkley, to me, is in Phili, when he was just a force of human nature and wasn’t just jacking threes and saving energy for his offense by ignoring defense entirely. You’r going to have to define Marl’s prime for me as well, but throughout his career he had Mark Eaton, Thurl Bailey, Adrian Dantley, Jeff Hornacek, Byron Russell, JEff Malone, etc. etc.
    Those are some pretty good players. When Barkley was in Phili, Erving’s knees were totally gone, and Cheeks is certainly nowhere on Stockton’s level. That’s why he demanded a trade to Phoenix once his athleticism started going, he knew he wouldn’t be able to carry them for much longer.
    And Prime Kidd vs Prime Payton is…. really really tough.

  • JTaylor21

    I mean we are just talking basketball and it was a joke; I really enjoy reading the stuff you write for slam unlike the chap from the windy city (I kidd I kidd). @Jukai, all right maybe I give you Bird being a slightly better defender but an equal passer?? Also love walton’s game, he was a great passer and defender but I just got more love for gilmore and malone.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Enigmatic, had a fight actually broken out, you think Mario Chalmers would’ve gotten the best of Blake Griffin?
    I mean, I’ve seen smaller cats beat up dudes who were bigger, but BG is mixed and he’s got 2 kinds of crazy flowing through his veins. Advantage him, IMO.
    And before anyone tries to attack me on that one, IT WAS JUST A JOKE. I know how sensitive people can get around here.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Ugh, im going to go watch a 40yr old balding piven play a college student in pcu.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    I mean, I’m 5’3″, and I’ve taken my share of ass-whoopins, but I dished out my share too. And best believe none of them were ever my height or shorter than me. I’m not on here trying to be an e-badass or anything, I’m just saying, for all we know Mario could’ve worked Blake.
    And Diesel, I’m telling you man. If Noah wasn’t that important to the team, I would’ve been on the “trade him to Denver for Carmelo” bandwagon.

  • http://yahoo.com The Ambassador

    I like this!!!
    Prime Michael Jordan>Kobe>Wade
    Prime Magic Johnson>Larry Bird
    Prime John Stocktan>Steve Nash
    Prime Scottie Pimpin>Lebron
    Prime Riggie Miller> Ray Allen
    Prime The Dream>Shaq
    Prime Mbenga> David Robinson
    EBOY>Ferr79

    Long Live King Mamaba!!!
    Long Live King Mbenga of the Congo!!!

    p.s I have a mexican friend who is 6’0 WHOA!!!

  • http://dsfjklf.com Jukai

    The Nerve: I dunno how you calling me the God of Slam is offensive… I actually like that, I hope more people call me it.

  • Max

    Primes: Hakeem > Shaq – Reason Hakeem was so skilled, and Shaq was physically dominant. But in the end i think Skill beats natural ability.

    Tim Duncan > Karl Malone – Reason Kinda biased but Duncan is a proven winner. Karl couldn’t win with Stock, or with the Lakers. Here’s a link for my man Timmy

    http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2010/04/tim-duncans-a-power-forward-and-the-best-ever/

    Lebron James >… Biggest D-Bag in the whole history of the sport. Dude morphed a city into irrelevancy in less then an Hour special. Nonetheless, the Game has never seen a player so physical gifted, at this position.

    Michael Jordan > Kobe – Make your own argument.

    Stockton = Magic – Reason – Stock never won a championship, while Magic bathed in rings. In a five year (88-92)span Stockon averaged almost 14 apg and 3 spg, While Magic ran ‘Showtime”. In other words the point guard position can be ran so many ways, and these two were perfect examples of different crafts.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    And some people just still CAN NOT stop talking about me, even when I ignore them and after they said that they were through.
    It’s pathetic. Maybe they want an autograph or something, I don’t know.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    This Ferr79 cat must be sh*ts and giggles to be around in the real world.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Bron, can I get one? I’d put a smiley face, but that may offend someone that doesn’t want to feel happy right now.

  • http://yahoo.com The Ambassador

    How Do You Fit 12 Jews in a Volkswagon?

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    BC, and if you were to deny nerve an autograph, would we be justified in hating you like you hate LeBron?
    LOL I’m sorry. I had to go there! You know it’s all love.

  • FERR79

    @ Desiel: You may not like it but that doesn’t make my point any less valid. I think it’s dangerous to use a majority rule type of approach to issues like this. A perfect example is the current climate in this country when it comes to race relations. Ever since Obama got elected it’s as if a black person, or anyone else can’t complain of racism or prejudice unless it’s an extreme example. Some people simply dismiss the complaints because “we have a black president so we can’t possibly be racist anymore”. I give a big middle finger to anyone who takes that type of appraoch. Group think doesn’t invalidate good points.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Yeah, I don’t know about that one, Enigmatic. I got my money on Blake Griffin in that one.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Yeah Enigmatic, I guess you’re right… It would be rude of me not to give an autograph to a LITTLE KID.

  • JTaylor21

    You would probably turn me down and I would hate you the same way you hate dude. Oh wait that’s not a valid reason to hate someone.

  • http://slamonline.com adam figman

    JTaylor: I never said Bird was an equal passer, or even near equal passer like Allen said. Bird was an amazing passer for his position, and he played with a lot of iso guys so his passing is even more impressive… but Magic was a phenom.
    Moses Malone, in my opinion, was a bit overrated so I freely admit I could be wrong about him. Dude was ABOUT on Prime Walton’s level in terms of scoring and a much better rebounder. But passing, and defense, it wasn’t even close, and that’s what separates them in my mind. It’s hard to argue that Malone brought any intangibles that Walton didn’t.
    Robinson is a LITTLE bit harder to argue… mainly because he was a statistical MONSTER of a center. I could argue it, but unless someone specifically asks, I’m not sure I’m going to bust it out.
    Gilmore wasn’t that great, haha, my Dad would tell me that a lot. My Dad went to a lot of Nets games (ABA games) when he was a kid and he thought Gilmore was trash, “no hands” he told me. In fairness, Gilmore was a pretty well-rounded center, but he had his problems: Very little offensive game (He was all dunks and putbacks), he was very turnover prone, and even though he was a force in the half-court, he often didn’t try to get back in transition and people killed him for that. You really gotta look at Gilmore’s NBA numbers, since the ABA was more guard heavy and Gilmore was pretty much just killin’ cats like Chamberlain was doing in the 60s-NBA.

  • http://yahoo.com The Ambassador

    I would love to give Little Kids my autographs but the more I’d sign the Less my autograph worth mabye thats why Athletes do it.

  • http://sfdkjlf.com Jukai

    Adam Figman@4:23 pm was me. I told you SLAM loves giving me his info.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    JTaylor, Eboy, I got autographs for both of you guys. It’s nothing…
    When you come see me, bring your women and make sure they wear a low cut blouse.
    I have my own Sharpie.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Yeah, Blake would probably whoop that a**, I just wanted to stand up for my fellow (relatively) short people and Alaskans.
    If Mario was from the Chi though, you know you’d agree with me. Hell, I’m convinced Derrick Rose and D. Wade could whoop any NBA center’s ass.

  • Zoom

    Can we not further the race/ethnicity discussion. I’m not enjoying reading today’s post up specifically because of this.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Bird was a great passer. His job was scoring, so that’s what he did, but he was a great passer.
    I have argued both sides of this issue, but right now I’m on team Bird and nobody has presented any evidence that makes that an entirely wrong decision.

  • T-Money

    Allen: you’re so wrong on Ray Allen and Reggie. Reggie is one of the most overrated player of all time. Ray Allen is flat out better.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Pretty amazing that this will have over 300 comments with barely a mention Kobe or Lebron.

  • JTaylor21

    @Jukai, valid argument and you almost swayed me on the Walton tip. Let’s disagree to agree. Also what’s your thoughts on just how far the GOAT ladder Walton would have been on had he stayed healthy?

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Bird was a supremely underrated passer AND rebounder.
    All those years he average at least 20, 10 and 5.
    Only Sota KG has equaled that.

  • the nerve

    bryan u know u my nicka on tha low. n i’m being totally real. u do wat it do

  • http://sfdkjlf.com Jukai

    that’s weird, because this is adam, and jukai’s info just came up on my comment box. i’ll talk to ryne about this tomorrow, and hopefully it’ll be the last of it.

  • JTaylor21

    AllenP, I know Bird was a great passer and probably is the second best passing SF behind Bron but do you really believe that dude was Magic’s equal as a passer? I mean if there was anything Magic’s renowned for, it’s his passing ability. I mean dude is the single greatest passer in league history and would probably be until the end of time.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    Yeah, thats the problem here. Email addresses. Way to prioritize.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    It’s all good…

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Larry Bird was a better defensive player then Magic Johnson IMO (his 3 all defensive selections to 0 for magic and superior defensive stats, and consistently higher defensive rating back that claim up quite nicely). Bird was also more efficient every year but 2 (that they were both healthy). Magic won more titles, and the same amount of MVP’s and was healthier longer, Basically they were completely even, I would not say one was better then the other.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    I once had Eboy’s information on here once when J was commenting.
    I just deleted it and put in my info, but it kind of makes you wonder how many other people on here have your personal email

  • T-Money

    And prime Scottie is better than Bron? Word? I remember prime Scottie as the #1 option in 93-94 and 94-95. That’s when I started to really pay attention to NBA ball. 22-8-6 was his ABSOLUTE apex. Scottie was one of my favourite guys to watch (so smooth) but he could never score enough to FULLY carry a team.

  • Zoom

    I think Stockon rivals Magic when it comes to passing. Strictly passing of course.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    First of all; Allenp can read.
    Second of all; Eboy and DIESEL seems to be struggling with the reading part.
    Third of all (to spell it out for the slow kids); I wasn’t offended by the Filipino thing. I just remarked that it could offend people and agreed with Jackie Moon that it was unnecessary.

  • JTaylor21

    I don’t know if you would want to be nerve’s on the low nicka since he’s well acquainted with the clink. Mess around and wake up feeling like Chad from the chappelle show.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Scottie would have given Lebron fits.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Alright, Allen:
    Magic, first of all, is the Greatest of All Times.
    Now, when comparing to Bird, it is arguable that Bird is better. I have alluded to this before.
    But, when looking at the athleticism variable, Earvin is better. Undeniably better. Magic had bigger hands. Magic was bigger, stronger, quicker, more multifaceted. Magic is a better leader. (extremely important) The fact that he was able to do what he has done at the guard position literally changed the game as we know it.
    An argument also can be made that if Magic does not play with other dominant scorers in his career, he would have as many or more points than Bird for his career. Had Magic been a four, his rebounding averages go up.
    Magic is the better ball handler. He is better off the dribble. We have never seen anything like Earvin with the basketball. Not Penny, not The King. Not anyone.
    Bird… one can argue that McAdoo is similar. Even though…
    The only real thing Bird has on Magic is the shooting. And, that is big.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    T-Money
    I used to have Reggie better for the big moments.
    Then I had Ray Allen better because he just did more.
    Now I’ve decided on equal.

  • http://sfdkjlf.com Jukai

    JTaylor: I think Walton may have been RIGHT outside of the top-5. Normally I’d say in the top-5 because of Shaq’s lack of dominance, but like, I can’t believe Shaq is still in the league, and CONTRIBUTING. We really don’t give it to Shaq, dude’s work ethic was supposed to out him from the league at 33, but he’s 38 and still going. That’s amazing, regardless if his numbers are pedestrian.
    You gotta look at how insane Walton’s championship was… They went up against a PRIME Dr. J, a prime George McGinnis, a prime World B. Free, a prime Daryl Dawkins… and Joe Bryant to boot (he gave birth to Kobe, so he should be something, right?). Portland’s team had Maurice Lucas, who was pretty good… then Lionel Hollins, then Bob Gross, then Larry Steele… this was a really bad team. Second worst team to ever win a championship, WORST team post-merger. They won because Walton was the main focus on offense, he passed in both the full court and half-court, AND was the anchor on defense. He controlled all three major facets of the game. His finals stats were mind-boggling: 18.7 points on 54% shooting, 19 rebounds, 5.2 assists, and 4 blocks a game! And in an age where it was harder to get assists rewarded to you, we’re talking doing everything. Dude was nuts.
    Alas, this was reallllly the only time we ever saw him. Who knows, I mean, with only one and a half years of injury free basketball, who knows if his performance was just a fluke?

  • JTaylor21

    Scottie would give Bron, Bird, Dr. J, Baylor and any other elite perimeter player fits, so that’s expected but Scottie would also have a hard time scoring on Bron at the other end because when he puts his mind to it, there’s not a better defender in the L today.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Apropos of nothing, but Gucci Mane just got an ice cream cone with the words “Brrr” tattooed on the side of his face.
    The Ice Cream… Mane?

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Philosopher livin up to his name, using “what if’s” and other hypothetical’s to make his claim that Magic was better. Homie the only thing we can use are the facts, they are both retired. And factually, Magic’s superior athleticism was needed considering he was playin the most athletic position on the court, and the fact that his game was more multifaceted is an opinion, Bird was known as basketball jesus in the 80′s and had ZERO weaknesses. You could call out his athleticism if you want, but his jumpshot more then made up for it, by forcing guys to guard him tighter taking pressure off of teammates and hiding his athletic weaknesses.

  • http://sfdkjlf.com Jukai

    Scottie Pippen would have matched up perfectly against Lebron. But like, if we’re talking 5 on 5 basketball, Lebron brings way more to the table. Scottie’s offensive output is pretty overrated.
    @Philo: Bob McAdoo played a thousand percent different from Bird. You sure you ain’t thinking of someone else?

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Co-sign Eboy. People who think Bruce Bowen was a l lockdown defender need to watch Scottie in his prime. 90′s era swingmen still have recurring nightmares of dude.
    And that Chappelle reference made me LOL.
    “Be careful when someone puts you in a sleeper hold, cause when you wake up your anus really hurts”

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    First
    How the hell is Magic a better leader?
    Second, you can’t say “if Magic was a four his rebounding averages would have been higher.”
    He was freaking big enough to play four. He played the freaking point. He was a point. And he averaged fewere rebounds than Bird, just like bird averaged fewer assists than Magic. If Bird was asked to orchestrate the offense instead of putting up point, he could have averaged more assists. (See how easy it is to do that?)
    Better off the dribble? Doing what?
    Come one, Magic was a cool ball handler, but it wasn’t like he was out of this world. He got the job done.
    Bird played with dominant rebounders and still rebounding. Bird played with one of the most gifted offensive power forwards off all-time and still got his points.
    Y’all are making crazy excuses.
    Every area Magic has a disadvantage is excused because he was playing the point. But then y’all turn around and tout the areas where he should have better stats because he was in fact playing the point.
    Like I said up top.
    Bird superior scorer, period. Bird near equal as a passer. Bird superior rebounder. Bird equal as a defender, and possibly superior. ( I don’t completely trust those all defense nods.)
    Magic won more rings, and won the head to head matchhup. But Bird had a tougher conference and slightly less talent overall than Magic.
    Bird wins.

  • T-Money

    Allen: Reggie did come up big in very big moments but it’s not like Ray Allen has not a few (hundreds) daggers in his careers! And then the difference in the overall game is just too staggering for me to ignore. Reggie Miller’s skillset went from below average to atrocious in everything but shooting. Ray Ray in his prime could handle and create for others, way more versatile. And just as good of a shooter, career percentages are the same and Ray Ray will become first all time in 3s made in a couple of weeks. I feel strongly about this: give me Ray Ray e’rrday.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    What about defensive rating allen? Or Defensive win shares? because bird is heads and tails superior to magic in both. That’s one thing I have always said of the two, Bird was a better defender

  • JTaylor21

    Jukai, great points. I would love to see that finals between Por and Phi, to just see the kind of action that was going on. Just imagine what it was like to see a Prime Dr.J consistently attacking the rim vs a great defender/shotblocker like Walton. It would have been some epic ish. If there was one player from the past that I would love to watch it would be ABA Dr.J, I mean dude was a great NBA player but his ABA days were legendary.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    Was Walton the anchor of defense, or Lucas. I have Lucas as the anchor as far as the heavy lifting, while Walton patrolled the weakside getting blocks. Maybe I’m wrong though.
    Walton might be most gifted passer in the pivot ever. The way he started the fast break gave his team like 7-10 extra points a game. And, in the halfcourt, he knew how to handle double teams.
    Dude was nice, but, we have to acknowledge his stats from that year were not overwhelming. Yes, the 14 boards and 3 blocks were nice, but both of those numbers were not anomalies for that time. And he only got 18 points on 53 percent shooting. And no, stats aren’t everything, but that must be acknowledged. And you can’t just throw Lucas out there, you ahve to acknowledge that he was already an established big man in the league and that he dropped 20 and 11.
    I think Walton’s dominance at UCLA ups his legend more than his actual play in the NBA. His potential was off the charts, but his actual play never reached that potential.

  • T-Money

    Allen: I agree with about everything you say on the Bird/Magic tip except passing. “Near equal” my a–, Magic is the best passer of all-time. And it’s not just the numbers. As far as who’s better, it’s a toss up really. They both worked really well in their respective teams and were surrounded by compatible players. All I can say is that I enjoy watching Magic more. FULL DISCLOSURE: I’m also clearly biased, picking Bird over Magic was not something that was allowed when I was growing up.

  • T-Money

    BC: That tattoo set manking back at least a few centuries. Isn’t it a big fail for a mental institution that a patient gets out and tattooes an ice cream cone on his FACE? Weren’t they supposed to fix him?

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    regarding the pivot passer comment, i gotta give the nod to Wes Unseld

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    NBK
    How are those stats created? the defensive ones. Just by watching the games, I would say that neither of them was a huge liabilty and neither of them was a stopper. I mean, I told you abou the quote the other day Jordan had about Bird and Magic and defense.
    Bird himself even scoffed at defense. But, I think we all know how he ended up on those all-defense teams.
    the Kobe syndrome.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    T-Money, he also has The “EA” from the EA Sports logo tattooed on his neck, a la JR Smith and his Young Money logo.
    So no, the mental institution couldn’t fix him. It’s like putting a band-aid on a compound fracture.

  • http://sfdkjlf.com Jukai

    JTaylor: Do you mean see them live or see them in general? I’ve seen them all… they’re on NBA Hardwood classics all the time, it’s not like the footage is lost. A lot of them were even on youtube! If I remember correctly, Walton’s best games were games 3 and games 6, check those out to see Walton just dominate in every single area of the game.
    Also, Dr. J was amazing in the ABA but he wasn’t a slouch in those finals either. Dude put up something like 30-7-5 with two blocks a game.

  • JTaylor21

    All right maybe 80s lakers were more talented than 80s celtics but Bird’s running mate was much better than Magic’s (McHale > Worthy) so that accounts for something. Also there’s no way Bird’s avgs the same number of assists as Magic had he played PG, no way. Bird had very good court vision but Magic’s was on another planet. I mean when I said that magic’s the greatest passer in history, that mean he’s better than Stock, Kidd, and Oscar. Now we all know that Bird is not a better passer than those guys.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Bird was a slow white simpleton. ……….. Anglos……

  • http://slamonline.com AlbertBarr

    Diesel posted @ 3:50 (paraphrasing) “we are so worried about offending people these days that we are even taking God out of the pledge of allegiance.” I have news for you: It wasn’t in there in the first place. The 1940′s and 1950′s were a horrible clusterf*ck of WASPy ideas and are looked back upon with misplaced reverence. America was never about and should never be about the Grace of God. Also, Eboy is a Floridian Scumbag…er, delight!

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    yeah the all defensive nods especially in the 80′s are kind of mehh dumb, shouldn’t have really used that, but regarding the calculations i pulled this straight from basketball-reference – Crediting Defensive Win Shares to Players

    A. 1973-74 to present NBA

    Crediting Defensive Win Shares to players is based on Dean Oliver’s Defensive Rating. Defensive Rating is an estimate of the player’s points allowed per 100 defensive possessions (please see Oliver’s book for further details). Here is a description of the process (once again using LeBron James in 2008-09 as an example):

    Calculate the Defensive Rating for each player. James’s Defensive Rating in 2008-09 was 99.1.
    Calculate marginal defense for each player. Marginal defense is equal to (player minutes played / team minutes played) * (team defensive possessions) * (1.08 * (league points per possession) – ((Defensive Rating) / 100)). For James this is (3054 / 19780) * 7341 * ((1.08 * 1.083) – (99.1 / 100)) = 202.5. Note that this formula may produce a negative result for some players.
    Calculate marginal points per win. Marginal points per win reduces to 0.32 * (league points per game) * ((team pace) / (league pace)). For the 2008-09 Cavaliers this is 0.32 * 100.0 * (88.7 / 91.7) = 30.95.
    Credit Defensive Win Shares to the players. Defensive Win Shares are credited using the following formula: (marginal defense) / (marginal points per win). James gets credit for 202.5 / 30.95 = 6.54 Defensive Win Shares. – confused yet?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    T-Money
    Yeah, I would have never picked Bird over Magic five years ago and I hated everyone who did. Seriously. But talking to Myles about past MVPs and stuff made me thing about Bird and look at his numbers and I had to recognize game.
    But, I could change my mind again in a few months.

  • JTaylor21

    Jukai, I mean see them in general. I’ve seen quite a few 80s and 90s games and even some 60s games but I’m itching to watch some 70s. I watch Hardwood classic every now and then but they tend to be misers. Is there a channel on youtube where you saw those games?

  • http://sfdkjlf.com Jukai

    Allen: Walton was definitely the anchor on defense in every way. Lucas only matched power forwards, although he did a great job on McGinnis in that series. And those numbers were pretty uncommon, not sure what yer talking about… After the merger, stats went down around the board. Malone was still averaging rebounds that would even make Chamberlain and Russell blink, but his blocks were hovering around what they were right now, around 2 a game. Gilmore also had two blocks a game, with one or two less rebounds. Even Kareem, the best center of all-time, who had amazing stats before the merger, was only putting up 13-4. So yeah, Walton’s numbers in the late 70s were pretty insane.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Allen:
    Magic also was the better defender. He may have looked suspect in that area, and he was. But, he is guarding perimeter guys, no? Bird is guarding guys in the paint. Anyway…
    And, Bird DID orchestrate the offense.
    Magic is better off the dribble for obvious reasons, man. Are you kidding me? How does he get into the paint from the perimeter?
    I agree with you about Bird playing with all kinds of gifted people, and still getting his. That is also what made Magic better. Magic made those guys look like they were better than they are… while getting his. A leadership quality that was better than Bird’s.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I don’t like that system at all. How does that system say “this player is playing good defense on his man.”
    All that pace and team stat stuff seems to skew it towards players who play on good defensive teams. Nah, I can’t abide by that even when it verifies what I already think. I like that stat that ESPN had about Bosh which said how many buckets were scored on him in the post and by the player he guarded period. That’s somewhate better, but still not perfect.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Hakeem put up three blocks a game on multiple occasions. When I said “norm” I didn’t mean scrubs did it, I meant shot blockers did it. And those blocks are normal for shot blockers back in the day.
    And Walton averaged 18 and 14.
    That’s what Dwight Howard averages.
    I need 20 points from a big man from a big man who is the focus of the offense. And he took 14 shots to get 18 points!
    And shot sub 60 percent from the free throw line!
    Come on, this is crazy.
    Shaq put up better numbers than that as a rookie. Just saying.
    If that’s the apex of his career, well he ain’t on the same level as the players I named, I don’t care what he won.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Magic got in the paint by passing the freaking ball to Byron Scott, then run and planting his 6’9″ butt on the block against the midgets at the one or two.
    You couldn’t put a small forward on him, because then it throws off the entire team defense. He wasn’t driving by point guards.
    You can’t say “Well Magic was guarding quick guards” to excuse him getting toasted on defense. He played guard! He wasn’t guarding power forwards! You can’t ignore the fact that his size made it easier for him to get assists and pass, but then use his size as an excuse for his problems on defense. If his size is important, then it’s always important. Being tall made him better.
    And no, Bird did not orchestrate the offense. He might have created for others, but he didn’t orchestrate the offense. That was D.J.’s job. Just like Jordan created shots for others, but it was Pippen and the guard’s jobs to orchestrate the offense.
    Bird got his touches on the block or off screens depending on who was guarding him. Then he went to work. If the other team doubled, he might look to pass. But, he wasn’t setting people up and getting them in their places and making a decision on every possession where the ball went.
    Have you watched a Laker’s game recently? I watched one on You tube. Every time a defensive rebound came off the glass, Magic touched the ball within five second or less. EVERY SINGLE TIME. He touched the ball exactly as much as Paul, or Nash. Bird was nowhere near that level as far as ball domination.

  • http://sfdkjlf.com Jukai

    Allenp: I mean, Olajuwon was better than Walton, no matter how high Walton’s ceiling was. I already mentioned that Shaq’s career was better. And while we’re on a prime discussion, prime shaq and prime olajuwon were better! So I dunno why yer bringing those guys up.
    Also, Shaq’s rookie season was his best season for rebounds and his best season for blocks, and then Shaq went downhill from there, so I dunno why yer bringing that up.
    I’m talking about Moses Malone and Robinson and Ewing. Moses Malone had the rebound numbers but wasn’t anywhere near Walton in terms of defense, and his passing wasn’t there. He also played about seven minutes longer a game to get those stats, and played for a far worse team during his ‘stat’ days than Walton, who had to share points with his team. Patrick Ewing’s prime was sort of two fold: at one point, he was a great shot blocker and shooting but didn’t have the rebound and passing numbers, and the next phase he had the rebounds and passing but his shooting and blocking wasn’t there.
    So that brings me to Robinson. Dude’s a statistical freak. It’s hard to make a debate for Robinson. I’ll do it if I have to.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    How can you say earlier that Walton had no one, then say he had to share points with his team? After Maurice Lucas, the next highest scorer after Walton had 14 and two other guys had 11.
    I mean, yes, those are points, but Walton still took 14 shots?
    When Malone scored 31 per game, he had players scoring 16, 13, 10 and 10. As a rookie fresh out of high school Moses dropped 18 a game on just 12 shots. And 14 boards was a down year for Moses in his prime.
    Now, Walton was a better defender and passer, but Malone was a better scorer and rebounder. If we’re looking at career, Malone easily wins.
    If we’re looking at prime, I can’t say Walton is definitely better. The holy grail for elite big men is 20 and 10, right. Walton never got there. Malone lived there. Actually, he lived at 25 and 15, but he visited 20 and 10 often.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And to compare David Robinson to Walton is just ridiculously disrespectful to Robinson.
    Dude was flat out better in every what except passing. Every other way, he was better.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Allen – They take the stats from every player in the league, if it was a team thing, the league leaders would all be from the same group of teams. Which is somewhat true, take 84-85 for example — Bird was second in the league in defensive win shares, Mark Eaton of Utah was first. Of the top 20 – 2 played for Boston (Bird and Parish) 3 Played for Utah (Eaton, Darrel Griffith, Thurl Bailey), 2 for Houston (Olajuwan and Sampson), 4 for Milwuakee (Terry Cummings, Alton Lister, Paul Pressey, Sidney Moncrief), 2 for NJ (Michael Ray Richardson, Buck Williams), 1 from Detroit (Bill Lambieer), 3 for Washington (Gus Williams, Greg Ballord, Rick Mahorn), 1 for Seattle (Jack Sikma), 1 for Chicago (Michael Jordan). As you can see the majority of those players are known either for their defense, or as defensive players. Bird is 2nd, I think the stat works to a certain degree, obviously it isn’t the end all be all, but its pretty good. That year Bird also led the league in win shares, while magic led the league in offensive win shares. These stats might not mean much in the grand scheme of things, but when comparing two players on defense i think it holds some water

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Allen:
    Not entirely correct. Magic did have moves off the dribble. He would even occasionally cross up people. He was “herky jerky”, and he found his way to the paint other than the way you described. I think you know that, though.
    And, I am not trying to excuse Magic and the “quick guards”. It is just a fact. He made up for his lateral deficiencies by working the passing lanes, and helping out. (Bird is a better help defender)
    Also, I thought “creating for others” IS orchestrating an offense. I could be wrong. Maybe not “THE offense”, but, Bird did orchestrate offense effectively when he did “create” for others.
    And, Bird also got touches on the perimeter as well as in the paint. This is true.
    Magic did dominate the ball. What is wrong with that? He was a point guard, no?

  • Pharoah

    How can LeBron say he has finally accepted the villain role and take back statements just because of bad press? wtf

  • http://sfdkjlf.com Jukai

    Allen: I’m arguing purely based on their primes here buddy. Careerwise, Walton is way down on the list because he played for two and half years, as far as I’m concerned.
    Prime, Bill Walton was simply better than Moses Malone. You’re docking Bill Walton pretty heavily for two points a game…
    I think you just have this set value for centers and Walton doesn’t fulfill those roles because he’s not a scorer type. Walton passed. He took 14 shots because he wanted to get his team involved, and yeah, no one else was good on that team but that’s what Walton did. Walton didn’t just create on the break through outlets, he’d literally call for the ball and find cutters or pass to wide open shooters. This was his game. He’d pass up working in the post so that he could find guys and get them involved in the offense.
    If you need a center to take more than 14 shots, I’m not sure what to say to that. I don’t fit in that mold.
    So, my statement still stands, prime walton > prime moses malone.
    Of course, career wise it would be insane for me to say Walton was better.

  • http://sfdkjlf.com Jukai

    Philo: there’s just no way Magic was a better defender. I’m sorry.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Ok, different strokes for different folks. Selah

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    He was not a worse defender.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    even if your using “best seasons” since Walton only played 2 1/2, Moses Malone’s best season(s) make Bill Walton look worse. 24, 15 and 2 in 37 minutes in 82 for Malone vs `18, 14 and 3 in 35 minutes in 77 for Walton.

  • http://sfdkjlf.com Jukai

    Malone 1981-1982: 31.1ppg, 14.7rpg, 1.8apg, 1.5bpg on 52% shooting in 42 minutes on a Western Conference Finals team
    Walton 1976-1977: 18.6ppg, 14.4rpg, 3.8apg, 3.2bpg on 53% shooting in 35 minutes on the Championship team.
    Not to mention Walton’s superior intangibles.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    This has gotta be one of the Posts Ups with the fewest amount of comments actual being related to the previous night’s games.

  • JTaylor21

    I’m gonna have to agree with those who say that MMalone’s career and game trumps BWalton. I mean dude was a straight up monster on the block and killed dude’s two to three inches taller and 25 pounds bigger than him. He’s best years rank right up there with all-time greats like Kareem, Hakeem, and Shaq. I would take him over a bill walton with 4 legs and 4 arms.

  • http://sfdkjlf.com Jukai

    As for the David Robinson comparison, that’s a tough one to argue. Robinson was a statistical masterpiece: he didn’t have the rebound or passing numbers that Walton had (he was NOT a better rebounder than Walton, that is for sure) but he was a better defender with more blocks and a much better scorer. And he did it all in reasonable minutes, unlike Malone who would play 40+ minutes to get his statline. Robinson was great, he really was.
    But like you said, there is so much more in basketball than stats. And Robinson lacked a lot.
    He was a subpar leader at best. He tried the whole “lead silently by example” routine to a T, and it often backfired (Dennis Rodman anyone?). Robinson also backed off in the clutch faster than Lebron can back off of a controversial statement, while Walton manned up in the clutch whenever he could. He was both the team’s emotional leader and on-court play caller, as many of Walton’s iconic images were of him waiving his hands in the air to call out plays, or stopping by someone during a free-throw to tell him something.
    Walton also provided many things that don’t show up in a stat-sheet: full-court lobs to start a break, picks all-over the court, great spacing and intelligent on-court decisions. Outside of his great post defense, Robinson didn’t bring much to the table that wouldn’t show up on a stat sheet. And I know he didn’t have the talent, but I’d be remiss to mention the fact that Robinson never won anything until Duncan came over and took over the alpha-dog responsibilities of actually being the leader of the team. Robinson couldn’t, even in his heyday. And yeah, his teams were bad, but then again, so was Walton’s championship team.

  • http://sfdkjlf.com Jukai

    JTaylor: It’s all opinion in the end, I certainly wont look at you as if you were a mutant if you say you’d pick Moses.
    Also, you were asking about a youtube channel for games. Type in: 1977 NBA Finals Game 6 76ers@Blazers Pt, and you’ll find game 6 of the 76er/Blazer series. A great one to see both Walton AND Julius Erving wrecking shop. I couldn’t find any other games from that series though.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Allen Ray is light years better than Reggie. It’s not even close. Also Prime T-mac > Lebron.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Shout out to Alan Ray.
    Shout out to Randy Foye.

  • JTaylor21

    Jukai, merci beaucoup.

  • z

    Cmon allenp you seriously would take prime AI over 2006 Kobe? Al was my all time favorite playa but…no. Also 1967 wilt was the greatest center ever. He basically played Russell’s game only better than Russ himself.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    That is because people don’t remember what prime ai could do. The ai that averaged 31 8 and 4. Who had more 40 and 10 and 40 and 15 games than every other guard in the league combined. Its ok its been a long time.

  • http://sfdkjlf.com Jukai

    Iverson 2004-2005: 30.7ppg, 7.9apg, 4.0rpg, 2.4stp in 42.3 minutes per game
    Bryant 2005-2006: 35.4ppg, 4.5apg, 4.3rpg, 1.8spg in 41.0 minutes per game plus an all-defensive first team nod
    This one is gonna be hard to argue, dude.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Kevin durant says hello t-money and jtaylor.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai you saying those stats ain’t close? And the all defense nod was bogus. Kobe was playing no defense that year. None. He was conserving everytiv for offense.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    The next season after puttig up 30 and 8 iverson put 33 and 7.4 with three boards and nearly two steals.
    Come on now. That os utterly ridiculous. And like I said he had more 40 and 10 games than every other guard in the league combined.

  • http://sfdkjlf.com Jukai

    Allen: Oh, those stats are close, way closer than Kobe-lovers would ever admit. Iverson was a BEAST, I dislike Iverson and I’d be remiss to say that 30-7 isn’t legendarily good numbers. I mean, as time goes by, I realize what an amazing passer Iverson was, to go along with his never ending soring.
    But I still think I’d give the edge to Bryant. He did do his fair share of defending, even if his all-defensive nod was bogus. It’s closer than people would like to believe.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Did you know that iverson was the only player in league history to be top five in top five in points, assists steals and minutes. In league history. Kobe had five boards when he scored 35 a game. Iverson had seven assists and 3 boards on 44 percent shooting whilebdropping 33. Come on now. Some ofyall need to check the tape.
    And us there have been more outrageous seasons in league history but very few since 1980 and none by a 6-foot player.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Joel anthony needs to get.on the effing glass. Bosh too. This is putrid. Denver isn’t even an outstanding rebounding team.

  • http://sfdkjlf.com Jukai

    Allen: Joel needs to get on the effing bench.
    Also, Allen Iverson is the only person in the world who makes Kobe Bryant look efficient, haha.
    What yer saying is all true, it really is.
    But I think there is as big of a difference between 35.4ppg and 30.7ppg as there is 7.9apg and 4.5apg.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Kobe in his prime is better than Iverson in his prime. If we are talking about the 2 guard position.
    Iverson never made his teammates better. His teammates made him better. It may be cliche, but there is truth to it. At least Kobe would relent, and make his teammates better when he felt the urge to do so.

  • JTaylor21

    Russ and his triple dub says hello, AllenP and BCrawford.

  • http://sfdkjlf.com Jukai

    Allen: I just want to say I don’t agree with Philo, so, you know, don’t lump my argument in with his

  • http://slamonline.com tealish

    Someday we will have a 3D visual simulator that works to perfection and we can play Kobe vs Jordan, LeBron vs Scottie, AI vs Zeke, etc. We will watch and we will love it.

  • http://slamonline.com tealish

    And, production-wise, Prime AI is hovering at Prime Kobe’s par, or at least very, very close to.
    But it pains me to admit that AI’s work ethic is what separates his lasting legacy from Kobe’s.

  • Lee

    Y’know, I guess maybe it’s just me but… Hell have the Bucks just been underperforming or what? They’ve had one of the hardest schedules in the league, with their starting point guard (BJennings) out for 2-4 weeks. They’ve had to depend on a big man (Bogut), who, no bullsh*itting aside, is not a game-changer at his position, as good as he his. I feel like they are a team filled with complimentary players (Delfino, Maggette, Gooden) that has hit a rough streak of tough teams and bad luck, but still are a team that could bounce back and snatch the 6th seed in the East… ANYONE WITH ME??

  • DEMIGOD

    maybe

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Eboy: Ummm, Eric Spoelstra’s nationality is American… Wtf are you even talking about…

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Co-sign Allenp @ 2:38 and 2:42. THIS is why you’re Top 5 commenters ever–right up there with Teddy-the-Bear.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ nbk: Your logic there is ridiculous. Calling someone a dumb Filipino has nothing to do with that person ACTUALLY being Filipino? WTF?
    Nobody is getting overly offended here–really, what’s worse than the comment itself is the defending of the comment and the pretension that there is nothing wrong. This is usually what frustrates most people, in cases like these. FYI. What incites people to make a big deal out of things are people who make comments like “WTF, YOU’RE SO SENSITIVE, BOY WHO CRIED WOLF, blah blah blah.” Just saying.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Also @ Bryan: I completely disagree. Allen Ray is not better than Reggie Miller..

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    lmao

Advertisement