Quantcast
Tuesday, January 18th, 2011 at 8:40 am  |  313 responses

Post Up: Boston Win Party

While Professor Griff brings the noise.

by Adam Figman | @afigman

All-Star Weekend is considered to be the midseason break in professional hoops, but in reality, the ASG is actually somewhere around the two-thirds point. Martin Luther King, Jr. Day, meanwhile, signals that the regular season is halfway through, and the NBA responds by  flooding the day with basketball; this one featured 13 games, in total. For those of you with a day off from work or school, you were able to sit around in your underwear and watch the competition pretty much nonstop, from morning through the night. For those of you who weren’t so fortunate, you get an ultra-sized Post Up to help you get all caught up. And for me, well, I have a whole bunch of typing to do. But it’s all good. Let’s get to it.

Phoenix 129, New York 121

Steve NashAmar’e Stoudemire and Mike D’Antoni reunited, once again. These days, NYC is a slightly more desirable hoops city than Phoenix, but it didn’t matter last night, when the Suns came to town and had their way with the Knicks. A one-point halftime lead turned into a nine-point lead after three, and Coach Gentry’s guys hung on from there, getting strong efforts from Nash (15 points, 11 assists), Grant Hill (25 points) and, um, Vince Carter, who stepped up to the tune of 29 points and 12 boards. After three straight Knick losses, including a bad one to the Kings, that whole “They don’t even need Carmelo” talk can now officially be put to bed.

Washington 108, Utah 101

Well, nobody can say the Wizards don’t have talent, and when that talent plays to its potential, they can beat just about anyone. Yesterday this was proved, as the Wiz shot 53.5 percent from the floor and got 65 combined points from Nick Young (25), Andray Blatche (21) and John Wall (19, plus 15 dimes). Deron Williams led the Jazz with 28, though it wasn’t enough, as Utah began a five-game road trip with an L.

Chicago 96, Memphis 84

Hard to believe Derrick Rose didn’t have a triple-double till yesterday, but yep, that was the case. No longer, though, as DRose put up a pretty 22-10-12 line and led the Bulls over the Grizzlies easily. Luol Deng scored 28 and was the team’s leading scorer, while Zach Randolph’s 21 and 13 effort led the Grizz, who shot just 37.7 percent from the field. The W makes three straight for Chicago.

Philadelphia 96, Charlotte 92

Two teams fighting for one of the final spots in the Eastern Conference Playoffs went head-to-head, and the result was a competitive, defensive battle. Neither group scored higher than 39 percent from the floor, and the scrappiness continued through regulation and into overtime, where in the final minute the Sixers got a big hoop from Andre Iguodala (16 points, 10 rebounds) and a nice defensive stand on the other end to seal it up. Boris Diaw sneakily pulled himself a triple-double, managing 25 points, 11 rebounds and 11 assists, while Lou Williams led Philly in scoring with 23. (Also: Allowing “Why Always?” Boris to pull a triple-double is one thing, but letting Kwame Brown manage a 15 and 16 line? Not a good look, Sixers.) Philly’s now tied at seventh in the East, while the ‘Cats stand at ninth, 1.5 games out of postseason contention.

New Orleans 85, Toronto 81

Another low-scoring affair, though this one didn’t need overtime before a winner was named. After 47 back-and-forth minutes, the Bees smothered Amir Johnson’s game-tying attempt, icing the contest and defeating their fifth straight opponent. David West and Emeka Okafor combined for 40 points and 26 boards (aka “Kevin Love numbers”) in the victory.

Houston 93, Milwaukee 84

Snapping a four-game losing streak, the Rockets took care of business against a Bucks squad that seems to be missing Brandon Jennings more and more. Kevin Martin dropped 36, while Jordan (C)Hill notched a 10 and 10 double-double. How they won while also shooting 36.8 percent from the field is beyond me, but probably doesn’t speak well of Milwaukee’s effort.

Detroit 103, Dallas 89

It was easy to blame the Mavs’ struggles on the Dirk Nowitzki’s absence, but now that he’s returned, this just ain’t gonna cut it. They’ve dropped six in a row, and closed out a four-road trip, in, um, whatever the opposite of “style” is. The Pistons just dominated them, getting 39 combined points from Rodney Stuckey and Tayshaun Prince, and Charlie Villanueva added 15 points off the bench. Meanwhile, Dirk did his job, dropping 32, as did Jason Terry, who put in 18, but there was little zero production from anyone else. Blame it on Caron Butler (out for the season, or Tyson Chandler (out for the game with an illness), or just the fact that this veteran-laden group is picking up some fatigue, but either way, this is becoming a problem. Are the Mavs due for a Magic-like midseason overhaul?

L.A. Clippers 114, Indiana 107

Hot damn, Blake Griffin! The Pacers frontline was just no match for dude, who powered through Roy HibbertTyler Hansbrough and the rest of the Indiana whiteboys, amassing a whopping 47 points and 14 boards. (Previously Monta Ellis and Paul Millsap had the ’10-11 season-high with 46 points.) The Clippers jumped ahead with a solid fourth quarter, and held off Indiana’s comeback attempts by, essentially, just dumping it to Griffin every play—though both Eric Gordon (23 points) and Baron Davis (14 points) were solid. LAC has now won five of six, and, yeah, just see yesterday’s Post Up for my mini-Clippers rant.

Atlanta 100, Sacramento 98

Utilizing a big man to pass in the ball during end-of-game situations is a pretty common practice by now, as it helps get a pass in cleanly over the in-bounds defender. But using a rookie, and one not exactly well known for basketball IQ? I don’t know about that move, but it’s exactly what Coach Westphal attempted, handing the rock over to DeMarcus Cousins with 0.6 seconds to go, with the Kings holding possession, down two. This might come as a shocker, but Cousins threw it away, and the Hawks squeaked away from the Kings with a W. Joe Johnson scored 36, including a pair of clutch late free throws, while Cousins led Sacto with 20.

Golden State 109, New Jersey 100

The biggest undertone to the Melo-to-the-nets saga is that Anthony actually has to sign off on an extension for a deal to go through, meaning the Nets need to be a somewhat desirable destination. And right now, simply put, they ain’t. New Jersey dropped another one last night, losing to an energetic Warriors squad led by Monta Ellis (26 points) and David Lee (24 points, 10 boards). Brook Lopez scored 20 for the losing group.

Boston 109, Orlando 106

Always good to get a playoff atmosphere going during the regular season, and that’s exactly what we saw when these two Eastern Conference powerhouses went up against one another. They traded blows all game, fighting until the final minute, when Boston made some big stops and held on for the win. Ray Allen was a machine, hitting some huge threes and leading the Celts with 26, while Rajon Rondo scored 10 and dished 13. Dwight Howard put up a strong performance as well, going for 33 and 13, and Ryan Anderson shocked everyone (including himself, most likely) by putting in 16 points. I’m not exactly breaking news when I say this, but a (or, another) playoff series between the Celts and Magic would (will?) be pretty damn awesome.

Portland 113, Minnesota 102

Portland’s been on and off as of late, but against the TWolves, they found a way to put things together long enough to get a victory. LaMarcus Aldridge was a beast, putting up 37 points and 12 boards, and continues to make a half-decent pitch at an All-Star Game selection. It’ll be tough for him to get ahead of his frontcourt opponent last night, though, as Kevin Love went for 22 and 17 in the loss.

L.A. Lakers 101, Oklahoma City 94

One…last…game. Long day, folks. The night cap was a Thunder-Lakers battle, featuring lots of experience against, you know, a team with not so much. L.A. used all of that to their advantage, stepping up to the plate and outperforming the underdogs in the final few minutes of action. Russ Westbrook (32 points, 12 dimes) tried his best to keep his squad in it, but Kobe (21 points, 7 assists) and company were too much, making big stops and holding OKC off at the game’s end.

Actual Stats: Blake Griffin: 47 points, 14 boards, 3 assists

Moment of the Night: How do I choose one moment out of hundreds (thousands?) of minutes of hoops? Let’s go with this: The climax of the night’s primetime matchup. (H/T: @Jose3030) Check it:

  • Add a Comment
  • Share
  • RSS

Tags: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Okc should sign zbo. I know people think I am crazy for saying that but I am convinced. Think about it.

  • reflex

    Griff needs to be at the ASG, ballinnnnnnn’!!

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    Good Basketball yesterday. Celtic Magic game was real good. The celtics get bailed out by the refs again. pierce was not in shooting motion and waited a whole second after he got bump by J-Rich to shhot the ball on that 3 point play. Also Gilbert is killing the shoe game, did yall see he rocking the old Deon’s last nite.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I want a Blake Griffin action figure.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    Is it possible that Blake is even a better rookie than LeBron was? This dude is sick. Really, he should be nicknamed ‘the truth’. 2nd 40+ , 10+ rebounds game of the season for Blake. He was hitting shots all over the court while Larry Legend was watching. I wonder what he was thinking… For people talking sh*t last week or so, saying that Westbrook is better when he got that triple double, well he’s your answer. Don’t think I’m hating on Russ, I seriously love him, I’m just defending Rose.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    @eboy, LOL, Blake action figure comes with jetpack :P

  • http://slamonline.com riggs

    lol @ celtics getting bailed out by refs and then saying AGAIN lmao. Obviously you forgot about the non calls the magic were getting with dwight but its all good because the refs helped them lose right?

  • Scott

    Allenp…zbo would mess up their chemistry don’t you think? Oklahoma is so athletic…they seem like they are so close to taking the next step as a team.

  • JTaylor21

    jahmai, don’t go there. Russ had a monster game yesterday and he was actually the best player on the floor. Just when you thought that Rose would outshine him yesterday, dude came thru with a 32/12 gem. Looks like I’m still right about KD, he struggles mightly when guarded physically because his handle is still not where it should be. Anyone that watched the game saw that he barely attacked the rim off the dribble when guarded by Artest instead he settled for long contested jumpshots. Dude has a long way to go before he can reach top-3 status because if those players shots aren’t falling, they find other ways to contribute like rebounding, creating good looks for teammates and defense, he did none of that yesterday. The race for best OKC player is closer than people think.

  • MUBWAR

    Whenever there’s a game between the Celtics and Magics, it looks like the refs just smoked some mary jane and forget to make some easy calls. Howard was banged up all night with no calls, but whenever Pierce throws his hands upwards the whistle blows.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    I sure wish I had it made like KG where I could be a d*ck to everyone in my personal life and they would rationalize it as “He’s just a passionate and intense guy”.

  • http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/ Anthony

    co-sign JTaylor on Durant, but if he’s working as hard as Kobe does during the summer there’s no doubt in my mind he’ll reach the Top-3.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Blake Griffin is the best Power Forward in the game. There’s not a single 4 outperforming him. For everyone saying I was crazy when I said CP3 was overrated, he shut me up with a 6 point 11 assists game…still number 1 point gaurd? Washington is my sleeper team to make the playoffs and give some team fits while they’re there. The West should play Gasol and Aldridge as Centers to make room for Griffin, Love, Melo, & KD in the ASG. Dirk’s missed too much time to go this year.

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    riggs give me a break. that was a horrible call. it should have been a foul but no basket. Also howard was getting abused but no calls where made. just like mubwar just said. and also jrich didnt get at least 3 calls in the final 3 minutes. And why does KG get to get away with illegal screens ALL THE TIME!!! but hey what can you do, the league loves the celts.

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    Diesel what kind of herb is you smoking, because your whole comment was out of this world….

  • KB8toSG8

    Kobe’s dunk should’ve been there…..

  • MUBWAR

    Seriously Deron Williams should be the 1 PG in the west. Nash is getting older and CP3 refused to shoot the ball this year, he just wanna dish

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Run n Gun – let me know what you disagree with and give me some exampels why I’m wrong. Please let me know which 4 is playing better than BG. Let me know what CP3 has done in the past 2 years to still be ranked #1 by a lot of people. As for my all star picks, I’m not sure who you could think deserves to go more than those people. Dirk is the only other forward that you could argue.

  • T-Money

    i was called a hater when i said that kd is not quite there yet. russell westbrook was the obvious go-to guy yesterday. when the game slows down and kd has to create for himself and others in the halfcourt against physical defenders (i.e., exactly what will happen in the playoffs), he still struggles. the jumper is money but the handles are weak sauce.

  • max

    In reality, what are Dallas options in case the want to pull a Magic-like midseason overhaul…
    trade for Beasley, Love and the rights for Rubio?

  • tuxo

    best pf in the game.. ever? or you wanna say best pf in the game right now?

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Just right now.

  • tuxo

    that’s for you though diesel

  • http://slamonline.com riggs

    lmao @ no calls yet the magic went to the line more times than the celtics. shut up.

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    1st thing i disagree with is you said washington is your sleeper and will give people fits in the playoff’s . Have you see this team play?

    2nd is just because he is playing great right now doesnt mean he is the best at his position it just means he is playing good basket ball right now. He is not better than Pau, Amare,Lamarcus,Z-bo.

    And chris paul has a scrub ass team and is coming back off of serious surgery. But i always liked DWill over him anyway. But he has his wack ass team in the playoff hunt so you still have to notice what he is doing as the point.

  • http://slamonline.com riggs

    they lost because celtics shot 60 percent from the field (While the magic shot 40% and relied on chucking up threes) and 85 from the line, dont try to throw blame to the refs cause the new look magic couldnt win against the C’s.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Diesel…I thought about it and you may be right even though his game is not polished right now I haven’t seen a rookie change his team around and the culture since Melo. I think we all may be about to see someone take the crown in the next few yrs as the leagues best player if not already.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Run’n'Gun…I thought bout it bro and I think Griffins motor has set him apart from the other PF in the league along with his athleticism and will to win. Aldridge has been playing better than Gasol this yr and ZBo is just a numbers guy.

  • http://slamonline.com THE REAL RIGGS

    who in the hell is using my name?

  • vtrobot

    i think even us C’s fans will agree that KG was at his dickest last night. but it was so odd to see him starting sh*t with dwight and bass because everyone on these boards says that he only goes after 6′ 3″ spanish PGs. very happy to have that @sshole back. oh, and JO, if the final decision hasn’t already been made, let me give you a 4th opinion: have that knee surgery. make some room for sheed.

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    riggs what does going to the line more have to do with anything. I hate when clowns make that excuse. A foul is a foul. Tell you scrub ass team stop fouling. I heard the same thing from every wack ass celtics fan last year in the finals in game 7. “The Lakers went to the line more than us in the 4th quarter” you know y? cuz your bum ass team was FOULING. Just like yesterday, difference is tthe ref didnt give the magic calls down the stretch. so i guess i should tell you to shut up.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Run n Gun, of all the “better” power forwards you listed, none of them have better scoring or rebounding numbers. The only person who beats him in any category is amare’s ppg of 26.4 vs BG’s 22.5. Which I’m 100% willing to chalk up to playing in NY’s uptempo style. Plus BG is a better rebounder and defender than Amare. Check the stats. As for the Wizards, watch them play now with Wall back and Lewis getting acclimated. They’re just as good as Indiana and Philadelphia. And if they do get into the playoffs and play a team like Miami, who’s weakness is low post scoring and the pg position, I could see Wall, Blatche, and McGee thriving. Plus Hinrich always give DWade fits. I will say though that my predication assumes Wall stays healthy the rest of the year. Chris Paul is playing with some very good players in West, Ariza, and Okafor. And neither of them are to blame for his 6 points against a weak defending Raptors team.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Exactly Kap. And its scary to think what this kid will jumper and works on his defense.

  • http://slamonline.com riggs

    “riggs what does going to the line have to do with anything?” wow. you seriously did not just ask that question on a basketball website. let me make it easier to understand for your retardation. The team that lost went to the line more than the team that won, so that means that the refs (the one that you say won the game for the celtics) called more fouls on the celtics in the entire game in a 3 point loss. that should not be too hard for your feeble mind to comprehend.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    *will look like with a jumper

  • block

    @JTaylor21 how can Westbrook outshine Rose on a night when he got a triple double and easy road win and Westbrook lost his game? Rose already put in work against the Lakers earlier in the season for a win and closed the game in the last 2 minutes. thats what separates rose from westbrook, westbrook excels in an uptempo game while Rose can get his in any style, and that matters in close games

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    So because you put up good numbers for half a season. That give you the “best title”? Dont get me wrong BG is balling but he is not the best power forward in the league. Like i said he might be playing the best ball right now at pf. Washington is a train Wreck even with the overrated wall back. That team has no identity, are they a running team or a half court team. They have lost i think 19 in a row on the road. They are not good at all. and the players you named for the hornets arnt that good(except for ariza) west is ok and emeka is trash offensivly.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    DRose messed around and got a triple-double…

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    Your team was fouling that why they went to the line more. And my “what does that mean” was pointed towards why the refs didnt blow the whistle down the stretch. So let me get this straight, if team “A” has been to the line more than team “B”, you cant call a foul when one should be called, or you have to give team b a call because they have not been to the line as much. get out of here with that BullSh!t

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Run n Gun, that’s exactly what it does. If you’re putting up the best numbers this season, then your the best player at your position this season. Which coincidentally, Bg’s current stats blow all of these guy’s career stats out of the water. Players like amare and Aldridge are having career years and their numbers aren’t as good as this dude’s rookie season. That screams best to me. As for the NO supportign cast, I’ll guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. But I will say that David West is extremely underrated. Washington lost most of those games without Wall. The East bottom half is weak and if Washington tightens some things up its not crazy to think they could make the playoffs. They’re only 4 1/2 games out now.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Calling Ariza and Okafor “very good” is beyond a stretch.
    Paul had a bad game, his team got the win. I’ve said for weeks that he should shoot more, but saying he had one bad game so he must not be the second best point guard in the league is wild. It’s amazing because I distinctly remember Rose fans giving Jtaylor all kinds of flak when he was crowing after Rose had a bad game, and after Rose choked a couple of times in the clutch. If you’re going to complain about judging one player on a single game, then the same applies to every other player.
    And I don’t care what Barkley thinks, Rose isn’t better than Dwill or Cp3. It’s amazing how playing amazing as a scorer will get you so much love. It’s like only one side of te ball counts, and only scoring on that side of the ball really gets people’s attention.
    I can see Blake in the top five at his position and potentially the best player. Then again, right before he had his monster game, he had a fairly pedestrian game by his standards. He might be the best four, but I still have Howard as the best big man overall.
    Artest still has the blueprint for KD, but few people can do what Ron Artest can do.
    Kobe looked great last night. I love when he plays the game the right way. He’s so freaking good at it.
    Anybody still sleeping on Nick Young? Bulls should have made that trade when his stock was low, now they can’t get him.
    Zbo would not mess up chemistry. He passes now, he attempts to defend. Pair him with Ibaka and the Thunder own the boards, not to mention all the easy shots he create for Westbrook and Durant with his ability to command double teams and kill on the offensive glass.
    Zbo, as he is playing now, is the perfect fit for OKC and he’s a free agent. They should make that deal, but Randolph’s reputation is going to prevent it from happening and they’ll probably make the mistake of re-upping Jeff Green. Oh well.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    What qualifies as “better stats”?
    Simply more points? More points and rebounds” More points, rebounds and assists?
    Right now, Derrick Rose is superior to Chris Paul at scoring and rebounding. Scoring by a substantial margin, rebounding by a slim one.
    Paul is better at assists, efficiency, turnovers and steals. And his team is less talented winning games in a tougher conference.
    I don’t get this at all.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    professor griff
    or
    monster
    those should be the choices for blake’s nicknames with “ginger ninja” as the honorable mention.
    But watch the media crown him with something wack.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Allen – CP3 has been underperforming all season. I’m just referencing last night’s game because it happened the day after I brought it up. And there’s a difference between Jtaylor making fun of Rose for missing a shot in a game in which he had 34 points and 8 assists and me making fun of a superstar #1 ranked PG scoring 6 points in a game in which his team needed his scoring. CP3 should not be in the top 3 discussion this season. He may come back to old form and play well again..then again, he may play like this for the rest of his career. Until either is a definite I can only rank him right now by what he is doing this season…which isn’t much. Rose, Dwill, Westbrook, and Rondo are all outplaying him this season.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Blake “beastcheese” Griffin should be his nickname

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    Thank you for allenp. its seems like you are the only one that realizes its not just about the numbers alots of things go into the game of basketball. And Diesel this is an examole of what im saying. Isiah and magic played in the same era, But isiah scored more point than magic all the time so does that means he was better than him?

  • paul

    The Refs kept the Magic in the game.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    yes, better stats are the main stats: points, rebounds, and assists. Efficiency is the stat you look at when you need to justify your favorite player that is underperforming in REAl output…points, rebounds, assists. On top of all that, SCREW THE STATS, just watch the damn games and tell me who’s playing better this season.

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    Rajon Rondo is not a top 3 point gaurd. At All. Not Even Close.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    New Orleans is inferior in talent, play in a tougher conference, and are only 3 games back of Chicago. Chris Paul is not “underperforming” in any way, other then comparing him to himself. He is still better then Derrick Rose, offensively its a conversation, but from sideline to sideline, for 48 full minutes, Chris Paul is the better player

  • Brandon

    Allenp, once again you are discounting Rose progress this year because of the conference he is in. The kid is balling right now, I agree he could be better at efficiency. But, you keep mentioning Chris Paul is playing with less talent but you do realize the Bulls team that you see now is not the team that has been playing all season. They have played a total of 9 games together this year, so he has not had his full compliment of players either. He is 3rd in the east with a 12-5 record against the West mind you. So saying playing in a weaker conference just does not hold water. The kid is averaging 24.1 pts, 8.1 assists and 4.7 rebounds he is a legit MVP candidate. He is consistenly raising his game during this time when they need him most without all of his best players. I do disagree with Charles he’s is the best right now, because he has not done it in the playoffs as of yet but once he does you can start putting him in the discussion.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Its obviously everyone’s opinion so I won’t drag it on anymore, but anyone saying CP3 is better than Rose this season is living in the past. I’m talking about 2010 & 2011. Not 2007 & 2008.

  • vtrobot

    rondo: leads the L in steals, leads the L in assists, leads PGs in rebounds. not even close to top 3 PGs??? what are you basing it on? personality?

  • http://skldflf.com Jukai

    Diesel: So only points, rebounds, and assists matter? So Lebron has been better than Kobe for like, five years?

  • http://skldflf.com Jukai

    And I’d take Rondo over Westbrook. I know I’ll get CREAMED for that statement, I’m fine with it. All of Rondo’s problems are Westbrook’s problems too.

  • T-Money

    I maintain that CP3 is the best pg in the league by far when healthy. I mean, check his 08-09 season: 23 ppg, 11 assts, 5.5 boards, 3 steals with 50-36-87 shooting. That is INSANE. You couldn’t ask for more out of a point guard. If CP3 is not healthy, then I roll with D-Will. Rose and Westbrook are really nice but they can’t run a team like these two (not talking about raw assist numbers, watch the games – Iverson could give you 7 assists a game without really running a team).

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Diesel
    I didn’t say PER. I said efficiency.
    Like the fact that Paul shots 48 percent from the floor, and 45 percent from three to get his 16 points.
    Or that he is only averaging 2.3 turnovers to 9.7 assists. Do the math on that assist to turnover ratio. It’s insane. No other point guard has shown Paul’s ability to get high assist numbers without turning the ball over except for Jose Calderon. Rose is currently averaging 3.5 turnovers on his 8 assists. That is not impressive at all. And he’s shooting 25 percent from the field, and 37 percent from three. Those are nice numbers, by no means are they horrible, but Paul is clearly more efficient even as he is scoring less.
    And, while Paul’s team does need more scoring, you can easily argue that Rose should be taking fewer shots, and getting more looks for Deng and Boozer, if you were so inclined. Looking at the two rosters, there is not a huge talent gap between the two, yet Paul has had an equal amount of success with his squad despite playing an extremely tough schedule.
    You are right, Paul should score more. But, other than that, he does every other thing that a point guard needs to do better than Derrick Rose. But, apparently, the scoring means that Rose is better.
    That’s funny logic.
    And JTaylor didn’t just go at Rose when he had 34 and 8. He also said something when dude had like 12 or 14 points in a loss.
    Rose is bananas as a scorer. But in 40 games, he’s only had double digit assists ten times. He’s had four or more turnovers 18 times and he’s shot 20 or more times in roughly half the games.
    In comparison, in 42 games, chris paul has only had four or more turnovers nine times. He’s had double digit in assists in slightly more than half his games. And he’s actually scored 20 or more in 13 games. And he hasn’t taken 20 shots the entire season. it’s clear they are playing the point in two very different ways.

  • http://shinefluid@aol.com just bcuz

    d.rose mvp…and best PG right now. if you dont wanna believe it now..then its you…not him

  • MUBWAR

    The day Rose get 3 to 4 games streak of 10 dimes and more(like real Elite PG do) and stops taking 24 shots a game, he might be there. As of now, The bouquet of Roses is third behind Rajon Rondo and Deron Williams. Bulls fans, please don’t roar back, its just an opinion.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Sorry, Rose is shooting 45 percent from the field, not 25 percent.
    As a complete player, Paul is clearly still the second best point guard in the league. As a scorer, Rose is lightyears ahead of him right now.
    I don’t see how this is even an argument.

  • letsmotor

    @run’n'gun: clearly you’re a celtics hater (you really think the refs bail out the celtics?) and everyone can have their opinion, but saying that rondo is not a top 3 point guard is just wrong. the guy is averaging 13.4 assists per game, about 2.5 more than anyone else, and i just don’t see how you can lead the league in assists and not be a top 3 pg, especially when youre averaging 13.4 (would love to know the last time someone averaged that many). and i didn’t even mention that he’s the best defensive pg in the league, even though most seem to forget about defense when discussing the league’s top pg’s.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    T-Money – what’s your opinion if the current version of CP3 is as healthy as he gets and his current level of play is how he plays for the rest of his career? Then where do you rank him..right now, not looking at previous years and not assuming he gets better. @Jukai – team success has to factor in there too. There’s something to be said for Kobe’s back to back titles. CP3 does not have team success to back him up. At least not in the last 3 years.

  • MUBWAR

    actually Allenp Jose Calderon leads the league the pass 2 seasons in assist to turnover ratio

  • T-Money

    Jukai: yeah, you’re crazy. Rondo can’t shoot, Westbrook can. He may not be good from deep but his mid range is money and he doesn’t miss at the line (86% vs 46% lol). Rondo is a system player who wouldn’t be as good elsewhere. You absolutely can’t go to him down the stretch because he’s afraid of going to the line AND he won’t take the jumper. Rondo is a better passer for sure but his game has MAJOR flaws. And his defense is overrated, according to synergy sports guys actually take it to him (especially in the post). All I can say is that Rondo works better for Bsoton. He’s not better than Russ though.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Actually according to Synergy Sports he is the best defensive PG in the league, and his vulnerability in the post is not even taken advantage of once a game. Atleast that’s what it said last season

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    im basing it on there arer better point gaurds than him. Rondo is a great sytem point gaurd. but you take him off that team and tell him to run a the team he would not be able to. If you take any of the top 5 pg ( DWill, CP3. Rose, Nash, Kidd) and put them on any team with any system they still would be top 5 pg. Rondo game is pound the ball untill one of my four Hall of famers gets open in there sweet spot. Any pg can do that. And the whole steal thing doesnt mean he is a great defender. he plays passing lanes just like iverson use to, he is not locking up anyone man to man.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Diesel: That’s such a cop-out answer. “Oh uh, my previous logic means my favorite player wont be at the top. Let me throw one more stat in which doesn’t relate AT ALL to the other stats I choose and it’ll all be good.” There is more to the game than points, rebounds, assists, AND team success. But hey, use what you will to prove your point.
    T-Money: Actually, the last few games, Rondo hit a few clutch jumpers at the end. And yeah, Westbrook is a better midrange shooter, but they both suffer once you start going 18 feet and out. Yes, it’s clear Rondo is playing great for a SYSTEM but who is to say that he couldn’t play great in other systems? Why would he excel feeding Durant in all the perfect situations?
    Plus I really don’t believe Westbrook is a better defender than Rondo. I really don’t buy that. People are out to disprove Rondo’s defense, which in some cases IS overrated but man, not THAT much so.

  • Brandon

    Mubwar, I just want to mess with you but he is acutally averaging 19.1 shots per game. I just appreciate the work the kid put in the offseason with his 3pt range. I believe that is the reason his efficiency is down because he is taking more 3 point shots this year. He is a career 48 percent shooter so I can see why he is shooting 45 percent because of the fact the 3 point shot is in his repoiture. I don’t mind him taking that many shots because of the fact he is the most explosive offensive player on the team. He is a lead guard. He does what his team needs to get the victory. I like guards like Paul and Deron they also do whatever the team needs. I just like that Rose is continuing putting his team on his back and winning with injuries.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    I think the Lakers should look to adding a scorer on the wing with Kobe at possibly SG and move Kobe to PG.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    According to Synergy Sports Technology, Rondo gets posted up less than once a game. Obviously, that’s not enough to detract from his overwhelmingly positive contributions on the defensive end.
    – that’s from his draft express “defensive profile” – I don’t have access to Synergy Sports any longer, so things may have changed

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    @Allen – I argued this up the other day, but what good is efficiency if it doesn’t translate to real output? I can shoot a high percentage from the field but if I only take 10 shots a game does it really help my team? I agree that CP3′s passing is better than Rose’s. But i disagree that Rose should be scoring less. Deng is known for disapeering for large stretches of the game, especially late in games. And everyone talks about how Boozer has problems with long bigs. The Bulls as currently constructed need Rose to score more. If they bring in a good 2 gaurd and Rose is still shooting as much, then I’ll agree with you.

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    im baseing it on there arer better point gaurds than him. Rondo is a great sytem point gaurd. but you take him off that team and tell him to run a the team he would not be able to. If you take any of the top 5 pg ( DWill, CP3. Rose, westbrook, Kidd,**nash**) and put them on any team with any system they still would be top 5 pg. Rondo game is pound the ball untill one of my four Hall of famers gets open in there sweet spot. Any pg can do that. And the whole steal thing doesnt mean he is a great defender. he plays passing lanes just like iverson use to, he is not locking up anyone man to man.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    @Jukai – how is that a copout? I’m looking at points, rebounds, and assists. What am I throwing in there? I do think Lebron has been the best player the past 5 years but I can 100% see people’s point who argue for Kobe since he’s actually won titles. Since neither the Bulls nor NO has done anything in the past few years, I can’t see bringing team success into the conversation. Not really sure what your outrage is over.

  • http://www.b-ballistics.com Darksaber

    That Celtics game was fuuuun. KG was in total agitator mode (9 games out with an injury and u get all up in opponents faces upon your return? Damn)
    He bumped guys on purpose then held his arms up in a show of innocence. Got into a yap-fest with Dwight and whatnot.
    Ray Allen wore yet another gorgeous pair of Jordan XI’s, white/gold with some green on the sole and shot some crazy off balance jumpers.
    Anderson revertin to 09/10 form for a quarter, Hedo and Gil0 building a mansion with their bricks…
    So much going on, great game to watch.

  • JTaylor21

    Ha, move kobe to PG. Laker fans and their outstanding lack of knowledge never ceases to amaze me.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    So you can see people throwing in team success (in terms of CHAMPIONSHIPS) but you can’t see people talking about defense or efficiency or what they bring to a team or how bad their team is or how far they’ve taken a team in the playoffs or how hard their competition is?

  • http://shinefluid@aol.com just bcuz

    ALSO..another thing no one ever accounts for. what really separates rose from the other PGs is his will.Literally with sheer will he gets his teams W’s. As ive always been told in any sport, teams take on the personality of their best player. If you wanna know why any team has the identity it does? just look at their best player. the lakers have kobe identity(kinda arrogant dont always go hard but when the game is on the line they are going to come through). The heat unfortunaely are taking on lebron identity and not wade. The magic are so lax and nonchalant why? dwight howard identity. the celtics are mean and like to bully ppl why? KG identity. The jazz can play with the big dogs but also can under-achieve why? Dwill identity(As i watched at Illinois). The nuggets are loose and unoragnized but can fill it up in a hurry why? melo identity. You never know what you’re getting from the hornets on a night to night basis because you never know what you’re getting from cp3 on a night to night basis. it wasnt always the case but the past few years its definitely been HIS identity!(Injuries and plus he doesnt want to be there) The bulls? boozer in and out. Noah been out for awhile now, but they feed off d.rose identity. same as when they fought the celtics tooth and nail his rookier year(They damn sure wouldnt of done that the year before). His identity. Through all the VDN adversity and injuries with a true lack of talent last year they still made the playoffs. his identity. Even if they dont have the most talent on the floor they play hard every night, are tough minded and unselfish. Due to HIS identity. Thats why he IS the best PG (aside from physically he can do what they cant). ppl can argue over numbers all day, but substance MATTERS. Its something to be said about your identity and character. The cavs never won because when it came to it, they were always insecure and in it for all the wrong reasons. As talented as lebron is thats always been his identity (IMO atleast). Muhammad Ali is considered the GEATEST of all time not because he won every fight but he had the MOST character, and that shit mattered in the 15th round. Im telling yall, some things cant be accounted for, and what you’re made of on the inside is eventually will determine how great you are.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    And on top of that i also said BEYOND the stats, just watching the games shows you who’s better pretty easily.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Mubwar
    Which is why I mentioned him in my comment about Chris Paul.
    Nash and Kidd are not better than Tony Parker. That’s the first thing that needs to be said.
    Second, it’s questionable whether they are better than Westbrook. Hell, I don’t even know if Kidd is better than Andre Miller or Chauncey Billups at this point in his career.
    Rondo can’t shoot, and actually passes up shots that he should take. Paul does this sometimes, but not nearly as much, and when he does shoot, it’s usually going in, so teams cannot lay off him like they do with Rondo.
    Rondo’s on ball defense is very good, not great. Did you all seem him almost strip Jameer Nelson, then stand there and reach as Nelson went right around him on his way to the hoop late in the game last night? Dude is a great thief, pretty good on-ball defender. Same thing with Westbrook, except Westbrook also blocks shots. Both of them are much better than Rose. None of them are more complete than Deron Williams and Chris Paul, who are the true elite defenders at the position among the top point guards.
    People make a big deal when Rose gets 30 and 8. That’s nice.
    But how often does Deron williams do that? Did you know that he only has six games with fewer than 14 points, and he’s never scored single digits the entire season? And he’s only taken 20+ shots three times! Three times despite having 7 games with 30 or more points. He’s had 17 double digit assist games.
    People are not appreciating what this dude is doing. They really are not.

  • letsmotor

    @run’n'gun: he gets a few assists from just waiting for a guy to get open, but the rest of the time, he’s breaking down the defense and penetrating, something that would benefit any team. and don’t compare his defense to iverson’s. his defense is more than stats can show. i’m not saying he’s an elite lockdown defender yet, but he is a very good defender, and the best defensive point guard right now.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Okay guys, this is how we’re doing it… point guards up till the 10th spot. So everyone knows everyone’s preference. Do it.
    Deron Williams > Chris Paul > Derrick Rose > Rajon Rondo > Steve Nash > Russell Westbrook > Tony Parker > Raymond Felton > Jameer Nelson > Chauncey Billups

  • MUBWAR

    Kep, moving the man who turns the ball over the most to pg…silly Lakers fans

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Jukai – when you can show me an accurate way of measuring someone’s defense, other than personal opinion, then yeah we can include it. Steals are not an accurate measure if you’re leaving your team out to dry in order to get them. And opponent’s scoring is more a team stat than an individual one. If CP3 scores 6 points on 100% shooting from the floor than you can have your efficiency, i don’t want it. We can talk about how far teams have gone in the playoffs, how far has NO gone in the playoffs in the past 3 years again? And I don’t even know what statistic you’re using for “what they bring to a team”.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Diesel
    You consistently said Paul’s team hasn’t done anything for three years. So it seemed like you were considering team success. Because, if you go of straight stats, the year before his injury was one of the greatest statistical years by a point guard since Magic played the position. Easily.
    And, this year, the only stat that Rose excels at is scoring. That and the .6 edge in rebounding.
    What you are saying is that scoring is the most important trait for a point guard to have, and that the fact that Paul handles tempo better, passes better, turns the ball over less and gets great production from inferior teammates isn’t as important as the fact that DRose scores more on more shots.
    I take nothing away from Rose. He is a complete and utter beast. I love his game, I’m a huge fan. But he is not a better point guard than Chris Paul and Deron Williams. Not at all.
    Rondo has to play the hand he’s dealt and he does it well. I wish he would improve as a shooter and free throw shooter, but I can’t dock dude because he’s passing to Pierce, KG and Ray. It’s not like he’s playing with the 2001 version of those guys anyway. Let’s be real. Everybody but Pierce is a shell of their former selves offensively, and the fact that the are still so effective is just proof of how truly great all of them once were. They can fall off and still be dominant.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @MUBWAR…Kobe is only 17th in turnovers while Lebron is third with almost 4 a game. So what the hell are you talking about? He is also one of the top five passers in the nba. He could run a team if he was told his offense wasn’t needed much.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Deron Williams> Chris Paul > Derrick Rose> Russell Westbrook> Rajan Rondo> Tony Parker > Steve Nash > Andre Miller > Jameer Nelson > John Wall > Chauncey Billups > Jason Kidd > Baron Davis > Jrue Holiday > Jose Calderon > Darren Collison > the rest.
    Once you get pass the top five, it’s more about personal preference for me, and not as concrete as the top five. Top five is based solely on skillset and current play.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    The idea that Kobe could play the point is absurd.
    Back in the day he could be a facilliator, not anymore. He’s tasted the apple…

  • Brandon

    Allenp the statement that he only increase in scoring and rebounding is inaccurate. He has increase his assists by over 2 assists per game 3pts made, 3pt percentage, free throws attempted per game and free throw percentage this year all are career highs. But I think Rose is playing better right now than both of him considering the injuries his team has had throughout the year. I don’t believe he is better than them yet as a complete player. But, his defense has significantly improve before he was a sieve on defense just to be honest. Now he is taking pride in defense and playing much better on that end of the floor.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Damn, forgot about John Wall and Baron Davis… hmm…

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Brandon
    I never said he’s only increased in scoring.
    I said he’s only better than Paul at scoring and rebounding, and rebounding by a small margin.
    What are you talking about?

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Allenp…are you saying that he doesn’t have the skillset or IQ to do so? If so then I disagree bc he is pretty much the point now and if they had a high volume scorer at SG then I could truly see him playing the point with great results. I would extend his career much like it did Ron Harpers.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Look at Detroit. They have moved TMAC to point and they have been playing much better bball lately.

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    so allenp you really believe John Wall > Chauncey Billups > Jason Kidd > Baron Davis. That is a ridiculous statement. Gotta disagree with you on that yo.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    I definitely don’t agree with Billups and Kidd being that low. They are old but those two can run a team just as good as anyone not named Williams, Rondo, or Paul.

  • LA Huey

    I don’t care what kind of highlights and stats The Griffin puts up, Landry Fields for ROY.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Kap: UH, yeah, because T-Mac is a superior passer and tempo controller to Kobe, man. Kobe would make an awful point. He often ignores his teammates and goes for his own, ESPECIALLY on the break.
    It’s simply not Kobe’s game. It would HURT Kobe. Why would you take a top-5 scorer of all TIME and tell him to stop taking shots he knows he can hit and do something he’s clearly uncomfortable with doing?

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    My cousin and I had a discussion the other night about if Rondo was on a different team would he even be considered a top ten PG. Honestly I don’t think so.

  • http://bulls.com airs

    @LA Huey, youre joking, right?…

  • Brandon

    My bad Allenp, I thought you were referring to last season totals compared to this year. Then you are absolutely correct with regards to the current stats in comparison to this year with CP.

  • JTaylor21

    Kobe has never ever been a great passer let alone a top-5 passer, so kill that noise. Dude should stick to doing what he does best; chucking shots from the perimeter. Just imagine if PJax puts him at PG, all hell would break loose, PGasol wouldn’t see a pass come his way for the next 5 gms.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @JTaylor…You are either stupid or hating if you don’t think Kobe is a great passer.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Yes, I really believe that John Wall > Chauncey Bilups > Jason Kidd > Baron Davis.
    In fact, the only one that is questionable for me is Baron Davis because I can’t trust Baron’s mindset. If Baron’s head is on straight, he’s probably top eight, easily, and pushing the top five. When his head ain’t right, he’s horrible. Horrible body language, horrible shot selection, just horrible.
    Wall puts more pressure on the defense than Chauncey and Kidd. He’s a better scorer than Kidd, he’s a better passer than Billups. He’s a better defender than both of them. His only knock is his health.
    I forgot to put Brandon Jennings and Steph Curry on my list.
    I would put Jennings over Jrue Holiday, and I would put Curry right before John Wall. Actually, I can’t decide on those two. It can go either way with them.
    KAP
    Kobe has the skillset and IQ to do anything he wants to do on the basketball court.
    He lacks the willpower and mindset.
    He doens’t want to play a certain way, and as much as he says it’s all about winning, it’s not. It’s all about winning if he can play the way he is most comfortable playing. That’s why he’s said that if he ain’t top dog, he is ready to retire. That’s who he is.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Jukai…I gotta disagree with you also. The only time he ignores teammates is when they can’t buy a basket. His bball IQ is way to high for him to fail at PG. He would murder teams in the pick n roll.

  • MUBWAR

    Y bring Lebron to a Kobe conversation Kap. Get off the man’s nuttts.

  • JTaylor21

    Kap, put down the bong for a second. Rondo would be a great PG wherever he plays. People don’t realize the kind of court vision, ballhandling ability, and overall knowledge of the game and the position that dude possess. Boston’s Big 3 are past their prime, so he’s the one that creates those great wide open looks for them since with the exception of PP, they can’t beat defenders one-on-one like they used to in the past. Give Rondo his props and stop hating on dude simply because you’re a laker fan.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    There’s no bias from me on Rondo. I love Rondo but I just don’t think he would be as good on another team. The Big Three really mask a lot of mistakes he makes.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    I’m getting killed on Kobe playing point to I’m gonna concede that battle today.

  • LA Huey

    @airs, just poking fun at those NYKfans

  • JTaylor21

    Sure Kap, I must be stupid along with almost every one on this site who disagrees with that foolish statement. I also like how you said that you don’t think Rondo would be a great PG if he played for another team then turned around and proclaimed that KB would be a great PG. You must not understand the kind of work and effort it takes into being a decent PG let alone an all-nba one. If Bron struggled at the PG position early in the season, what in your cotton picking mind makes you think that KB can do better?

  • http://bulls.com airs

    sarcasm really doesn’t go over well in this comment section haha, gotchu.

  • http://twitter.com/BeezKneezy LA Huey

    @Kap, @JTaylor, Boston is the ultimate TEAM. Everyone’s play is elevated being part of that team. Including each member of the Big Three.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Deron Williams > Chris Paul > Derrick Rose > Russell Westbrook/Rajon Rondo > Steve Nash > Chauncey Billups >Raymund Felton > Jameer Nelson > Andre Miller > Aaron Brooks > John Wall > Jrue Holiday > who’d i miss?

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Oooo wait, I would have Stephen Curry right by Nash, and Brandon Jennings right behind Chauncey. I value playoff experience for a pg probably too much, which is why I have john wall so far down on the list. And Billups so high. I didn’t put Jason Kidd because he literally can’t defend PG’s. Offensively as a playmaker he would be top 7, but I can’t put him up there as a semi-point

  • Max

    NBK Tony Parker

  • JTaylor21

    What kind of mistakes does Rondo make? I think that you really haven’t seen more than two celtic games this season because the majority of them I’ve seen, Rondo probably makes 3-4 bad passes a game. Every pass from him is on point,they are right in Ray Allen’s shooting pocket as soon as he’s coming off the curl. Every pass to KG is right where he wants it, so he could just catch and go up for his shot. Everyone saw that Bos offense wasn’t as good when he was hurt and nate ran point. I don’t even know why I’m arguing with a laker fan about a celtic player, I mean y’all probably thought Larry Bird was a bum.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Jtaylor…bc he is smarter and has a much better skillset that’s why I think he can do better.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    oh and Baron Davis only plays when his team has a chance at being good, when they don’t he doesn’t care, even if he could make them good by himself. I can’t support that, in any way.

  • JTaylor21

    Bosh would make a better pg than Kobe. Dude is a walking turnover. He’s even overrated as a scorer.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    wow, the league is PG heavy, my fault. Tony Parker would be right above Nash behind Rajon.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    I actually love watching the Celtics play. Doc Rivers is a genius on offense with the plays those guys run.

  • JTaylor21

    That 1:31pm post wasn’t me. Looks like the male groupie is back. Is that you, kap stacks?

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    You guys all think Parker is better than Nash? I mean, I am hardcore Nash biased so I will have to assume you guys are right, but I certainly don’t know why. He doesn’t score or create better than Nash, and he’s not a lockdown defender to overcompensate for that. I guess the Spurs being number 1 helps, but in my mind, that’s Ginobili’s team. So I dunno. Again, I’m Nash biased, so don’t expect me to really see the reasoning behind it.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Parker IMO can score for efficiently then Nash, even though he is an inferior shooter from everywhere outside 10 feet. He is a better defender. And has no issues running an offense. With that being said, if i was running a team where i needed one player to get me to the playoffs by himself, and it was between the two, I would take Nash. That’s purely from a “who makes the collective team better” perspective. Parker is better individually, Nash is better in terms of team output, on offense.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @JTaylor…Why you blaming me?

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Overrated as a scorer… Yet he’s 9th in the history of the NBA right now.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    NBK: Like I said, you’re probably right. I would not say Parker is a more EFFICIENT scorer, I think the word “effective” is better. Nash is more efficient since he hits on a better clip in all three categories. I can see Parker as a more effective scorer, since his attacking the basket disrupts defenses and causes switches, while Nash’s outside-in style can score points without really doing anything to the other team’s D.
    But let me plead my case here. I mean, why not, I’m biased but I still have my biased reasons.
    Statistically, they’re pretty even.
    Parker: 17.5 – 3.3 – 6.9 – 1.4 on 52/33/77
    S Nash: 17.2 – 3.7 – 10.8 – 0.7 on 52/39/91
    The difference, in my opinion, comes with that they’ve had to deal with. Parker came into this season with the same team he’s played with last year, nearly to the T, with the same coach he’s always played with and the same star he’s always played with. Sure, the offense was changed so he had to deal with that, but it was geared more around Parker’s abilities, a style of play the Spurs have run in stretches but never an entire season. Parker has statistically risen across the board, as expected.
    Nash, on the other hand, came into a team which was radically different from the season before. The coach, he’s only played with for two years, and the star player is now gone for greener pastures. Nash had to adjust to everyone’s different styles. Midway through the season, the team shifted again and once again Nash had to adjust his game to vastly different people.
    Nash has had two major periods of adjustment to go through in one season, Parker none. Yet statistically their pretty even: Nash is an iota better of a scorer, a superior passer, dead even rebounder, an inferior defender, hell they even play identical minutes. But I’m more impressed with what Nash has had to go through in a season and so I’m more apt to put Nash over Parker.
    But once again, I’m wearing a purple Suns jersey as I type this soooooooo….

  • http://slamonline.Com Bryan Crawford

    My bad, JT. Although that does sound like something you would say.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Effective sure is better, agreed on that front. About the teams thing, I think if we were judging PG’s on the effect they have on every member of their team you would be right. But if you took Nash and plugged him into every system in the league, I feel like he would be less effective then Parker. The system comment and all that I don’t like, Nash has had all of his “big success” in the same system, and he has actually been with Gentry since he got back to phoenix in 2004. Gentry wasn an assistant for D’Antoni and Porter for a total of 6 years before he got the head honcho job. P.S. I am wearing a steve nash t-shirt as i type this lol, so it pains me to say a spur is better

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    JTaylor might be the dumbest poster on this site since that crazy greek dude. Your like that dumb friend how is always saying dumb sh1t, and then the rest of his friends just look at him with a blank stare and a shake of the head.

  • JTaylor21

    Speaking of dumb, it’s you’re not your, einstein.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    NBK: Well, I think Gentry runs a little bit different of an offense as D’Antoni. It’s more of a motion offense in Gentry’s system, D’Antoni’s is way more RUN AND SHOOT THE F*CKING BALL! That’s why offensive possessions went down under Gentry. But yeah, RELATIVELY they are the same thing.
    I gotta say though, I WILL disagree with you on “plug Parker into any system and he’s better” theory. I mean, when Nash was in Dallas’ “every team offense,” he was still putting up more points and assists than Parker is now, and the team ran behind Nowitzki and Finley. So I dunno. Parker has a more killer instinct than Nash does (remember how he MAN handled the Cavs?) so there’s certainly the argument, but overall I still choose Nash.
    Feel free, at any time, to say “shut up you literally slurp Nash everyday!” and the argument will be over, haha. I don’t feel right arguing this point, like I’m the last person in the universe you want as an unbiased observer.

  • JTaylor21

    ^Speaking of dumb, it’s you’re not your, einstein.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    The “E” should be capitalized, JT. You know, since we’re editing each other now.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Your argument holds logic as long as you stop bringing up your unwavering loyalty to the mighty south african. lol – but idk that Dallas team ran, and Nowitzki and Finley were offensive superpowers when Nash was there, its not like that team won on defense either. I understand your argument, I just have to take Parker over Nash, I feel like he gives a team more from baseline to baseline. But that is not to say I am 100% confident about my opinion

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    1) Kobe played a great game last night, he was the best player on the floor, but i’m in complete agreement with Jtaylor about Westbrook being the best player on OKC last night. Durant went back to the start of the season where he was shooting liong conested jumpers for quarters on end.
    2) Diesel, I know we have differing views on this, but as Allenp said, CP3 is better than D Rose in every statistic besides scoring, and is slightly worse at rebounding.
    Using one game (last night), is a terrible way to make your case. 3 game’s ago, Chicago went to Charlotte and got thoroughly out played, and DJ Augustin thoroughly out played Rose. 2 game’s ago, NOH outplayed Charlotte, and Chris Paul absolutely locked down DJ, who shot 30%! with 4-5 TOs.
    I don’t think CP was trolling these comment sections yesterday thinking ‘Shh, I better score 30 tonight to shut Diesel up’.
    3) Dwight is playing great ball. You look at Orlando’s roster, no real good players defensively, yet they are top 10 in near enough every defensive statistical category, all because of the mistakes he erases.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    NBK: Out of curiosity, would you take a vintage Tony Parker over a vintage Steve Nash?

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    4) Chris Paul’s team have had a tougher schedule, in the L’s toughest division, yet they are only 3 games back of Chi Town, with a very easy part of their schedule coming up.
    5) Rose is fantastic don’t get me wrong. I was in awe at points watching him last night, unfortunately, as you haven’t watched CP all year, your not really qualified to judge the two.

  • JTaylor21

    You’re right. You know the public school system has failed you when 50Tyson is correcting you.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    50Tyson? Yeah, uhm, I don’t get the joke… Must be a lame thing.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    in all honesty it depends on the team around the player. I play a lot like Nash so I have a strong opinion on what kinds of teams it helps and hurts, from my own personal experience if that makes any sense. Basically I would take Parker with a traditional inside out system, where the offense is run through the post. If it was a outside-in attack that is based on spacing and pick & roll/pop then I take Nash…basically I think they are right for the systems they are in. And Parker’s system is more traditional, and prevelant. and like I said, I prefer Parker on defense, which is oooberly important too me.

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    Chris Paul>Derrick Rose>Deron Williams>Russell Westbrook>Rajon Rondo>Jason Kidd>Tony Parker>Baron Davis>Steve Nash>Jameer Nelson

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Being 3 games back of CHI would mean a lot more if NO were in the East.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    BC what does that mean?

  • JTaylor21

    Of course you don’t get it and I wouldn’t expect “special” people to.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Pot, meet kettle…

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    JTaylor if your inferring that 50Tyson is so famous only the mentally challenged don’t know who he is, I suggest you find out what having a life is like.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    AllBall – if we’re going to look at Rose as only slightly better rebounding, at .6 higher, then we also need to acknowledge that Paul is only slightly better at assists at 1.5. And the scoring is a significant difference at over 8 points a game. If you take Paul’s extra 1.5 assists per game and generously assume those were to a 3 point shooter, that’s an extra 4.5 points he’s responsible for. That still means Rose is responsible for 4 more points a game that his team is scoring. As for NO being in a tougher division so CP should get more credit for their record, NO lost to 2 teams in the Bulls “weaker” division, so I don’t give that much credit to the 3 less losses. You still have to beat the teams on your schedule. And I know you’re not saying Rose is bad. I think you’ve been pretty respectful and logical with your arguments actually. I’m not saying CP3 is bad either. I just don’t think he’s top 2.

  • JTaylor21

    Oh oh, the morality police is out in full force. It’s only a joke people, don’t start picketing outside of my house okay.

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    BC, what does that mean? I now that if you looked from a neutral standpoint, you would admit that playing the 3rd toughest schedule in the toughest Division probably results in a few more L’s than playing the 4th easiest schedule in the easiest Division.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Don’t compare rebounds to assits with pg’s. That’s ridiculous

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    nbk I was comparing rebounds AND assists. Not rebounds TO assists. Rose averages .6 more rebounds a game and CP3 averages 1.5 more assists a game. I’m trying to get an overall picture of both players.

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    Diesel, Rose should be a lot better rebounder than CP, but CP is actually a great rebounder for his body type. He is also a lot better passer than Rose. He is getting those assist numbers in the L’s slowest pace, with his two wings, Ariza 1st, shooting 39% FG, 28% 3FG, Bellinelli shooting 41% FG, 39%3FG, bearing in mind they are shooting a combined 20 shots, 9 & a half of which are from 3.
    That’s a good argument, regarding NOH two losses in the Central Division, but over 41 games strength of schedule is relevant, when the difference is 25 places as it is with these two teams.
    I think Rose is great, but the only thing he can do better than CP3 is score right now, and the stats back that up, looking at raw and the more advanced stats.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    While we’re already talking about rankings. Where do you guys rank BG on your all-time rookies list? ESPN just did an article on this. I hate the PER with a passion but using that, BG ranks 3rd behind only MJ and David Robinson.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Cawford

    AllBall, not to say that your argument isn’t valid, but I tend to give stuff like that more weight in college basketball. These guys are pros.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Forgot about Felton, and Augustin. My bad. Felton would be above Steph/Wall, while Augustin would be right below Jrue Holiday. (I really like Holiday’s defense.)

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Nash gets to the basket too guys. Not as fluid or pretty as Mr. Parker, but he gets there and gets it done. I can’t think of a single thing that Parker does significantly better. He’s a better defender, but not by much.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Ok I thought you were saying they carry equal weight for PG’s. I totally 100% could not, not say something. I would like to say about CP and Derrick Rose, they play completely different games, each player obviously has success in each style. But until Rose wins a playoff series, I wont even consider to say CP is not better.

  • JTaylor21

    I have to put guys like the Big O, TD, Kareem, Monroe, Barry, Reed, MJ, DRob, Hakeem, Bird, AI, Shaq, Richmond, Sampson, Terry Cummings, Walt Bellamy, Wilt, and Baylor above BGriff in terms of having better rookie seasons.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Parker gets too, and scores in the paint significantly better then Nash. Better then every PG in the league not drafted in 2008 for that matter. Nash still is efficient, and very effective, but there is a difference. Nash has many many more opportunities to do whatever he wants on offense, while Parker has 2 other guys that get and need consistent touches inside the offense. So it shouldn’t be surprising that Nash is better in volume at almost everything, like Jukai said, Parker is more effective getting in the paint and converting. Nash is 1,000% more fun to watch though

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    It definitely holds more weight in College BC, but that kind of difference in SOS will make up for something some where. 7 of the Hornets game’s have been against Dallas at full strength, the Lakers with Bynum starting, and San Antonio.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Of the two players that I can still look up because I only ave access to NBA.com at work, BG’s numbers are pretty comparable to Shaq’s and slightly better than Duncan’s. I’d have to agree with most of your list though Jtaylor.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    NBK: In fairness, I was solely talking about Nash right NOW. I agree with Bryan that I don’t think there’s a single thing Tony Parker does better than Nash when talking about them at their heights.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    It sure seems from Bryan’s comment he is talking about right now.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    I’m just talking measurable basketball skills, better shooter, better handle, better passer. Hell he’s even a better rebounder. I’ll say this if you need one or the other to get you a bucket on command, TP is more likely to do that. But if your team needs a bucket no matter who scores it, I take Nash 100 out of 100 times.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Cawford

    AllBall, that’s just 7 games out of 42. How does that make them comparable to Chicago who haven’t been at full strength at all this season.
    You seem to be forgetting that Boozer missed the first month and a half of the season, Ronnie Brewer was coming off an injury, and Joakim Noah played with a severe hand injury before being undergoing surgery.
    I haven’t been paying a whole lot of attention to New Orleans, but I don’t think they’ve been without any of their key players at all this year.
    How much better do you think the Bulls record would be if they had been at full strength for as long as a lot of other teams have?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    1.5, statistically, is significantly larger than .6.
    Moreover, Paul’s 1.5 comes with only 2.3 turnovers compared to 3.5 turnovers for Rose’s eight.
    So, in effect, Paul provdes a net of 7.4 assists, while Rose provides a net of 4.6.
    That is a massive freaking difference.
    Moreover, don’t ignore that Paul also provides 2.7 assists to Rose’s one, or the superior shooting percentages.
    And ALLBALL now you have to explain how you have Rose over Deron Williams. That is outright hate right there. What statistical basis are you using to make that determination?

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Cawford

    And totally unrelated, but at the same time relevant, those things that I just mentioned are exactly the reason why DRose should be in the MVP conversation this year.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I agree at their heights the only thing Parker had on Nash is speed & quickness. And I would take Nash over Parker in a straight up, “at their peak” draft, but I still value them as at their best in different systems.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    2.7 steals, not assists.
    And being a more effective driver is measurable, and Tony Parker is a better driver and finisher than any other point guard in the league. Any one, even Rose.
    Parker splits ball handing duties with Ginobli, has put up these numbers are better even when the Spurs played at a much slower pace. I mean, we all acknowledge that Parker is just a passable shooter, but his shooting percentage is crazy and that’s a direct result of his finishing. Hell, he only takes 4 free throws per game even though he lives in the lane, which means he is finishing tough shots over larger players despite not have great hops.
    Nash is a better passer, without a doubt. He’s a better shooter. I think Parker is a more dominant scorer, better defender, and more versatile as far as style. And he’s been that way for several years.
    Also, what exactly do we consider Parker’s prime?

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    @Bryan – Considering how much Chicago is over achieving without those two, I think they would be maybe 2 or 3 games better, at most. The absence of the two hasn’t hurt, and its been mainly because of Rose and Thibedaeu’s defensive schemes. Which is why I have him #2 for MVP, even though IMO he isn’t better then Chris Paul, or Deron Williams, just more valuable to his teams success right now. (wins matter for MVP, if your most valuable in losing efforts then how valuable are you really?)

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Cawford

    So you really think that with a healthy Boozer and Noah all season, Chicago would only be 2 or 3 games better than they are right now?
    I’m sorry, but that’s absurd. No offense.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I agree with NBK.
    Thibs is great, Rose is great. Boozer is Boozer.
    Rose should be number 2 behind LeBron in the MVP race, and should have a great shot to pass Bron.
    Now, here is a thought. If the Clippers recover, and go on an extended run and make a playoff push, should Griffin be considered for MVP? How well would the clippers have to play for him to be in the MVP discussion?

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    BC, i’m saying, if you could exchange those 7 game’s for say 2 each with New Jersey and Cleveland, well then the records look even more equal.
    I’m not forgetting that, i’m not debating Rose MVP stance, what I am saying is that CP is a better basketball player right now, statistically, it cannot really be argued, even if your only going on the raw box score statistics which I know you prefer.
    NOH have had no injuries, aside from D West missing 1 game, Willie missing a few because of a death in the family, and Marco missing 2 games, but Marco being out is an upgrade. On a side note, the Bull’s talk about needed a SG, take a look at NO.
    If Chicago were fully healthy, I feel they would have 2/3 more wins, but Rose numbers wouldn’t be as great.
    Allenp, do you put my name in CAPS so I notice lol? If i’m being un biased, Deron is clearly a better player, but I thought we were going on preference?
    As with CP, the only things D Rose can do better is score & rebound (D Will should be a better rebounder), but DW can run a team better than any PG not named CP, has the size that make’s him a match-up nightmare for guards (A lot of 2′s guard him because he’s too big, but you probably know that), and he is just more polished than Rose right now.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Parker splits handling the ball with Ginobili cause Ginobili is a better player… I mean, I dunno, I just don’t see it. In today’s game, I will admit that Parker may be better.
    At their heights, I really don’t understand that. As I said, with Nash as a second/third option in Dallas, his stats were still way better than Parker’s, and that was in a rather traditional iso-”give it to the superstar” offense. I don’t get why Parker is a more dominant scorer. Parker’s insanely quick, but Nash during his prime was one of the fastest guards in the league, if Parker was #1, Nash was #4 or #5. I also don’t think Parker is that great of a defender: he’s alright. It should be telling that with the LOCKDOWN defense that the Spurs played, no one ever mentioned Parker as even a remote cog in that system. I think the difference in passing abilities between Nash and Parker is greater than the differences in defense. Scoring is slightly centered towards Nash cause he’s more efficient. I mean, the Spurs centered their ENTIRE defense around shutting down Nash and overly playing all his passing lanes, which involved trapping when he was in the corners and sending a second defender to show whenever Nash was setting up his pick-and-rolls. Has anyone EVER seen a defense send another man at Parker? Ever? Even when Parker was dismantling Dallas last year, even during his creaming of the Cavaiers, they refused to double team him because they didn’t want to play Duncan straight up. Parker is one of the best slashers in the game and gets free range because of Duncan. Eh, man, I don’t know.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Cawford

    Of course you do, Allen. Why am I not surprised?
    The Bulls have really only played 1 game where they had basically no shot at winning and that was Orlando blew them out by 29.
    Like I said, they’ve been missing pieces and if healthy, they could easily be 7 or 8 games better than what they are.
    Easily…

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Cawford

    You guys saying that Chicago would ONLY be 2-3 games better with a full and healthy roster is just mind blowing to me.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    But I guess it is what it is and I shouldn’t be surprised in the least.
    It’s not like Chicago (or DRose) has gotten a whole lot of love around here this season.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    They could easily be better. Or they could not.
    That’s like saying that if Wade hadn’t missed preseason and the team had time to gel, Miami wouldn’t have struggled out of the gate.
    Or that if Mike MIller and Haslem had been healthy, they would have been rolling people even more.
    See how that works?
    Boozer played with the best point guard in the league for multiple seasons, and they were never “great”. Very good, but not great.
    Hell, you could argue, if we’re using hypotheticals, that the only reason Rose has been in beast mode is because of the injuries and he’s in the MVP discussion because of them, not in spite of them. I mean, haven’t all Bulls fans said that Rose wouled never play this way if he had his full team?
    It’s a hypothetical.
    And, if you don’t think LeBron fits the criteria for MVP, then it’s on you.
    His numbers are crazy, his team has been killing, and his absence clearly makes a huge difference. Plus, head to head, he’s a better player than DRose, which is always important to me in MVP discussions.
    I don’t get the problem.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    DRose has gotten a lot of love. And a lot of hate.
    It comes with the territory. When you’re on top, your flaws are magnified. If he wants to be MVP and the man, he should get used to it, right?
    I mean, wouldn’t you say the same thing for LeBron?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    Didn’t the Spurs also dare Nash to beat them as a scorer and attempt to prevent him from setting up teammates?
    I don’t know.
    Parker can play defense. For example, when the Spurs played Denver a few years ago, the Spurs put Parker on Iverson so Bowen could deal with Melo. There is no way the Suns would ever, EVER feel comfortable with Nash on Iverson, even in Denver. That right there told me something about their defensive skills and the trust their coaches had in them.
    And Parker did a damn good job on Iverson, I might add.

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    You know what BC, to me it’s no different than you not acknowledging that the SOS make’s a difference in record. I feel like Chi have over achieved so much that their record wouldn’t get too much better. With 7/8 games difference, they would be best in the L record wise.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Was Steve Nash better than Shaq or LeBron, head to head, when he won his MVP’s, Allen? No, of course he wasn’t.
    But by your logic and everyone’s agreement that LeBron is better than everybody in the NBA, then they should just hand the award over to him every year until he retires.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Speed vs speed in that case Allen. Also Memphis dared Nash to beat them as a scorer in the playoffs and he dropped 48 on them and beat them. So it’s not like he can’t do it. He’s a better player. Parker gets to the basket better, but Nash still gets to the basket. He defends better but not by much, every thing else goes to Nash by a mile.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Allen: Didn’t Iverson kill that series and average 23 and 8 or something? I remember Melo dropping the ball in that series.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    My MVP race goes as follows, Dirk, Rose, LeBron. In that order, if that’s not showing love, idk what is. @Jukai, Michael Jordan (actually Allen Iverson) has totally f’d up everyone’s view of a “traditional offense.” Traditionally an NBA offense is not ISO driven, it is give the ball to the post, and move from there (screens, cutting, yada yada), not give it to your best player and watch. Plus those Dallas teams were set up to run pick and pin downs on the wings of the court, with the weak side spacing for 3′s. Which is not traditional. Most of their offense was set up or initiated with a pick off of the entry pass, or a pick right away before any passes. And when you have a pg that sees the floor like nash, a pick is all he needs to find an opening.

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    Allen, you ever read :7 seconds or less? Nash matched up with Iverson & Gil that year (when Gil was Gil), and did a solid job.
    I agree with your point about who’s better than who in MVP voting.
    BC, when Nash won the MVP he was widely regarded as the best at his position right?

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    AllBall, I don’t acknowledge SOS because it doesn’t matter in PROFESSIONAL sports. Why? Because it’s PROFESSIONAL sports.
    And yes, with a full and healthy roster, I FIRMLY believe that they would be up there competing for the best record in the NBA.
    And last I checked, over achieving is a whole lot better than under achieving.
    Allen, DRose isn’t the one complaining at the lack of respect… I am.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    AllBall, Allen mentioned that the MVP should be given to the best player, head to head.
    That’s what I was addressing when I mentioned Nash.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I’m sorry wait a second, Bryan your saying if the Bulls were at full strength they would be right around the same record as San Antonio? That’s what 7 or 8 games better would be. You think Joakim Noah, or Carlos Boozer (Rose has had one of them in every game but 1?) is worth 7 or 8 wins in 40 games? If that’s true then I say those two deserve MVP consideration.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    @nbk: Yep

  • JTaylor21

    I say no to BGriff being an MVP candidate if the clips continue winning games. The clips are good but I doubt they make into the playoffs and you can not be an MVP candidate if your team’s playing .500 or below ball. BGriff’s having a great rook season but people have to slow down with comparing his rook season to a guy like TD because TD was a great defender from day one while Griff’s terrible on that end. While he may put up similar offensive numbers, defense is the seperating factor.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Ohhhh BC, you always start out so good then make an insane statement like the San Antonio one. Man.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Props to fig man for ‘why always boris?’

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    So if the Bulls had Carlos Boozer they would have beat atleast 3 of the combination of OKC, NY, Bos (twice), LAL, DEN, ORL? Because I can see the arguments for games they’ve lost without Noah, CHA, PHI, NYK, LAC. But Boozer, you think he makes them that much better that they will beat the best teams in the leauge?

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Whatever you say, Jukai.
    Having injured and/or missing (key) pieces at various points in the season, the Bulls have still been competitive in every game but 1.
    Take that how you will.
    But I forgot, it’s illegal to say that Chicago is a good team around here because they certainly could NEVER have a record up there with the San Antonio’s and Dallas’s of the world because they’re not very good, just overachieving.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I mean we all realize that Boozer didn’t make that big of a difference in Utah when he missed time right? So why in the world would he make such a huge impact on Chicago? I don’t see any semblance of logic in saying Boozer makes Chicago the best team in the league

  • http://www.slamonline.com Nick Tha Quick

    Change of topic: For as much athleticism as Shannon Brown has, why is he below average defensively? He makes really poor reads, struggles to stay in front of his man, doesn’t close out well to shooters and fouls when he shouldn’t. You’d think that he’d be able to shut down people if he wanted to. Unless he got that JR Smith “efense” in him too?

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    But eight more games? You laughed at me when I said Noah would cause the Bulls to lose more than five games the entire ten weeks he was out. now you say that in the 40 games they’ve played, they would have won 8 more? C’mon son.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    There is a difference between good and the best bryan. Stop acting like people are saying chicago sucks, everyone is given them their credit. Just none of us have some kind of weird bias where we think our hometown team is the bees knees.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Nick it seems like you know the answer if you just think about it. Hint (answer): Shannon Brown has a low basketball IQ

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Bryan Crawford
    You of all people should know i vehemently dispute that Nash deserved those MVPs, and longtime commenters know that one of the main reasons was because I felt he was NEVER the best player in the league, or even close.
    ALLBALL
    When Iverson was with Denver, he had at least one game of 40 and 10 against the Suns. And I don’t know how many other amazing games. I openly rooted for the Nuggets to get the Suns as the seventh seed instead of the Lakers at eighth becaue I truly believed that Iverson and Melo would overwhelm the Suns offensively. If the Lakers could come close to doing it, I believed Denver had the guns. I don’t care what that love tome to Nash said, Nash never matched up well with Iverson. Ever.
    Jukai
    Iverson had an outstanding first game. They had Bowen on him that game. After that, his percentages were crap, and Bowen locked up Melo, while Parker did his thing with Iverson. That’s what I remember.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    To clarify my point about the best player being MVP:
    If you cannot justifiably be considered the overall best player in the league, like your supporters can’t make a serious argument for you as the best, then I don’t think you deserve to be MVP.
    Sometimes the best player is debatable, or it’s very close. But, if you aren’t even in the running, and Nash has never been in the running, then you don’t deserve MVP consideration, in my opinion.

  • http://www.facebook.com/joe.l.brewer3 BlackPhantom

    Co-sign nbk, Shannon Brown’s basketball IQ is very mediocre

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    But if I may… To quote you from the other day, Allen, “The precedent has been set.”

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Why is strength of schedule not important, but injuries are important?
    If the logic is that it’s professional sports played by professional athletes, then neither injuries nor strength of schedule should matter. They are all professionals.
    Injuries only matter if you acknowledge that certain players are better than other players, whether they are professionals are not.
    If you acknowledge that certain players are better, and thus more important, then logically you have to admit that certain teams are better, and thus wins or losses against certain teams mean more.
    I mean, you can’t have it both ways, it doesn’t make sense.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Allenp: Dave Cowens, Bob McAdoo, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Dirk Nowitzki and Dr. J would all like to have a chat with you.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Aiight gents, gotta run. Bulls/Bobcats rubber match is tonight.
    It was a pleasure, as always, and when it comes to my Bulls, we’ll just agree to disagree.
    I’m cool with my team flying under the radar and having people doubt that we’re a legit squad.
    Truth be told, I wouldn’t have it any other way.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Strength of schedule? What is this? The f*cking BCS? Everyone plays everyone in the NBA.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Nash’s defense has been atrocious for a decade, and Tony Parker is not a bad defender. That’s a huge difference. Hell nash made a 34 year old Sam Cassel look like an not only an All Star, but a top 5 PG in the series against the Clippers. Nash gave up a triple double to Raymond Felton 2 weeks ago. Nash is so bad on defense (not an overreaction) Gentry takes him out of the game on late game defensive possessions.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    BC
    I don’t have an MVP vote. My opinion on MVP holds no weight in the real world, but it’s still my opinion.
    Rose is a viable MVP candidate because there is no true definition for MVP and quite a few voters have decided he deserves the nod based on his current play.
    Given the way the award has been handed out in recent years, I can’t disagree. But, if I was the King of MVP voting, I would decree that you have to be arguably the best overall player in the league to even be considered for MVP. Period.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Injuries are important. If a guy plays ten games and scores 40 ppg and they go 10-0 is he MVP? Playing in the games matter. Scrubbing up poor teams is something good teams are supposed to do.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Tony Parker gets torched on the regular dude.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Allen regarding your definition of MVP, what? – Seriously the award is most VALUABLE player. Not TBP The Best Player, that’s not what the award is. The award literally implies which player means the most to their team, literally. If you took Nash off of those Suns teams (especially MVP campaign #2) then that Phoenix team likely would not have even made the playoffs. But they finished with the best record in the West both years, and the league one of them. Can’t get much more valuable then that. (a lot like Cleveland with & without LeBron)

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    As I’ve stated before, the difference between Nash and Parker passing wise is greater than the differences between them defensively. If we want to boast Tony Parker’s defensive abilities to simply prove a point, then there’s nothing I can say or do. I might as well bolster Nash’s defensive abilities too. HE TAKES CHARGERS DAMNIT HE’S A TOP-5 DEFENDER IN THE LEAGUE!

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    If a team is 10-0 and has played against every team in the league whose winning percentage is .320 or worse, than do those wins mean the same thing as a 10-0 team who has beaten teams whose winning percentage is .550 and better?
    Of course not. I don’t even know why this is an argument, particularly not from BC since he was leading the “Miami is beating scrubs” brigade.
    SOS matters, but it’s not a team’s fault if they beat bad teams, since they don’t make the schedule. It’s not like boxing.
    But, you should pay attention to who a team is beating, and who they are losing too. It matters.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    NBK
    1. It’s my rule. I made it, it’s not THE RULE.
    2. Why do Nash fans always say “remove Nash and what are the Suns?” Do you mean the Suns don’t have a point guard, or do you mean they don’t have Nash? If Barbosa is the lead guard, then yeah, they slum. If Raymond Felton, or Rajan Rondo is the point guard, they make the playoffs both years. If Deron Williams or Chris Paul were the point guard, they would have probably made the Finals.
    Shawn Marion averaged like 22 and 12 in Nash’s second MVP year. He put up 26 and 13 against the freaking Clippers! Dude can hoop, period. And for all those folks looking at what has happened in Miami, Toronto and Dallas for Marion, check his shot attempts in all those places compared to Phoenix. You will find a massive freaking difference, because his role changed, and the team’s style changed.
    There is literally no other player in the league you could have placed on Cleveland’s team who would have duplicated the record that Lebron had. None. Back in the day, prime Shaq, or Duncan, possibly Garnett, could have done it, but nobody else. Nobody else, not Kobe, not Wade, not anybody, could have won 60 and 66 games with that team. Besides the fact that LeBron was one of the two best players in the league, that’s why he won MVP.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    To back up BC, the games the Bulls lost but would have won if at full strength are:
    1. Denver – lost on a last second shot with Rose out
    2. Clippers – lost by 1 with Noah Out
    3. Nets
    4. Philly
    5. Charlotte
    6. Knicks
    7. Knicks

    I’ll even except only one of those knicks games, so I’ll say a fully healthy team would have had 6 more wins, which means 34-7 and only a game behind San Antonio. So I have to agree with BC on that one.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    This is never gonna end, you can’t say his passing ability is greater then the difference between them defensively, just like I can’t say the opposite. immeasurable lunacy is what that is. Like trying to reason which shoe it makes more sense to put on first, there is no way to know. haha

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    And SOS would matter more if the Bulls didn’t beat the teams that you guys are trying to justify losing to. Bulls beat a fully healthy Dallas, Lakers, OKC, Portland, Denver, Boston, and NO. And although i don’t put too much weight on it they beat Miami too.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    No way do the Suns make the Finals with Deron Williams. Deron needs his shot to be effective. Amare and Marion would have taken away from Deron’s shot, and worse case scenario, there would have been in-fighting. I’m also NOT convinced on how Williams can perform without Sloan calling all the shots for him half the time.
    Chris Paul probably would have taken the Suns to the Finals yeah.
    But unless Deron Williams would have prevented Amare/Diaw from getting off the bench and knew that Dohnagy was working for the mob, he does not get to the finals. That’s crazy. Not on a team with that many egos. Deron Williams is effective cause he scores.
    Marion was given the greenlight to score all he wanted in Toronto and in Miami they needed him to be the second option. He did neither. Soooo there goes that theory.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    The whole “take this person off the team” argument is completely wack. I’ve said this before about the Cavs. EVERY player on the cavs roster was brought in to play a role off of Lebron. The team was built SPECIFICALLY to his strengths. So no Kobe wouldn’t win with that team, you’re right bravo. Kobe couldn’t lead a team built for a player with OPPOSITE strengths to the same record. If you think Rajon Rondo leads that team to the playoffs you’re crazy. Nash is the engine of the suns, while his particular skillset can be more easily duplicated than Lebron’s can, that doesn’t make him any less valueable to the team. What you’re basically saying is “remove MVP candidate from this team and replace him with another MVP candidate and they won’t miss a beat.” Well that’s not much a stretch is it? That you can try to use that as an argument for or against anybody as MVP is completely ridiculous.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Well Allen in that sense then yes, but MVP does not measure how good your team would be with someone else, it measures how good they are at that very moment, with the players they have. If Nash tore his ACL then Phoenix would have been dead in the water, more dead then any other team in the league except maybe Cleveland. (and LAL but they barely made the playoffs anyway) – so yes the argument take nash off matters because of his value to the team. Thats why the award is most valuable, not best. I sure never thought Nash was the best PG in the league, but I was behind his second MVP because of how valuable he was to that team, even though Marion played out of his mind (on offense, solely because he had a fast break, open-court PG – in the half-court, which rarely happened anyway, Marion was no more important then Ronnie Brewer was the last couple years in Utah) he was not the main reason they were winning, he helped ofcourse, but so did John Stockton when Malone got his MVP’s, Pippen when Jordan got his, and so on.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Watching Kevin Love rebound the basketball is very, very fun. And addictive. During the last 3 minutes of the game last night he got like 3 or 4 rebounds off one possession, just by tipping the ball repeatedly. He’s pretty undersized and still no one could stop him. Awesome.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    ALSO, Darko is a legit future All-Star if he continues to get the minutes and becomes more consistent. He has better post moves than Dwight Howard and his passing is top 3 in the league for big men. It also helps that he’s a lefty. Yeah, I said it.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    what of LeBron’s strengths was Cleveland built around? That is crazy, teams get the best players available. The role players, the secondary players that are added later, are assembled by strengths. Not the entire team. And when talking about Most Valuable, taking a player off makes perfect sense, simply because injuries happen. That’s why i hate the best player on the best team argument, what if your best player missed 18 games and your team like 12 of them, you won’t have the best record, solely because your most valuable player was not in uniform. Which is also why i still have Dirk as my MVP this season.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Also, Nick Young is kicking @ss on a regular basis right now. Maybe trading Arenas wasn’t such a bad idea after all–now they can play Wall at the 1 and Young at the 2 without having to worry about any of that “combo guard” business.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Taking a player off makes sense,NBK. I meant “replace player X with player Y” sorry for the confusion. As for the Cavs, Mo Williams was brought in as an off the ball catch and shooter so Lebron could dominate the ball. I mean a perfect example was the 2001 Sixers. All those guys were brought in around Iverson specifically so he could play his game uninhibited. The Cavs were built the same way.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Most basketball teams are built with traditional pg’s and big men. Yet the Cavs had Mo Williams and Daniel Gibson. They got an unorthodox Antawn Jamison and a midrange shooting 7’3 center. You’re telling me that team wasn’t built solely around Lebron’s skillset? And to take it a step further when they tried to bring in a legit second best player, Larry Hughes, it failed miserably.

  • JTaylor21

    This is off topic but what are you guys thoughts on just how good BKing’s career could have been had he stayed healthy? I recently watched him drop 40 on a very good celtic frontline and abused Bird so badly they had to switch on the of the best defenders of the 80s, McHale on him. Dude had the entire offensive package, he had numerous go-to moves, he was a monster on the break, he was a beast on the block, had a terrific mid-range game and got to the FT line with ease. If he would have stayed healthy, he possibly could have cracked the 30,000pt plateau. He’s easily one of the top-5 best scorers of all-time when healthy.

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    If Andrew Bynum was healthy, the Lakers could be 35-5. If Dwyane Wade doesn’t miss pre season, Miller and Haslem are healthy, Miami could be 38-3 right now.
    Allen is absolutely right in that SOS is relevant, as much as injuries are.
    Diesel, because they have beat a lot of West teams, doesn’t mean they would beat them again if they were to play regularly. Chi Town have spent a lot of time beating up on Central Division foes at home, as well as the New Jerseys/Raptors of the L.
    It really is common sense that the more regularly you play good teams, the more games your likely to lose!

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    Nick Young and Jon Wall could be a potentially very good back court, Teddy.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I didn’t introduce the “take this player of the team argument.”
    You all introduced the argument. And I showed you it’s fallacy. But you know what i”m going to do, I’m going to go back, figure out who played point guard in the league at that time, and develop a list of evey point who could have gotten the Suns to the playoffs. Do you all really eblieve that only Nash, or an MVP candidate could get that team to the playoffs? Hell no.
    And, why would Deron provoke infighthing? That’s crazy talk. Yes, he shots, but he takes roughly 15-16 shots a game in an offense where he is the second leading scorer by necessity and has been for years.
    He’s not a chucker, and if he can coexist with Boozer and AK47 and Okur, and get them to the WCF, then why couldn’t he do it with the freaking Suns?
    Ok, how the hell is Mo Williams the perfect point to play with LeBron. He’s only effective when scoring, but isn’t a great shooter. He can’t defend, and really can’t pass that well. Prior to Cleveland, he was a shoot first, ball dominant point for the Bucks. Why would he fit with LeBron?
    Jamison, a small four, big three, who can’t defend and struggles as a spot up shooter is catering to LeBron’s strenghts?
    Shaq, a lane clogging, post player who isn’t great in pick and roll, and struggles to finish in one-on-one post ups, caters to LeBron’s skills?
    WTH? Hell, even Varejo needed a better mid range to be the best complement to LeBron, and he never truly developed it.
    Y’all need to go back and examine the skillsets of those players, and figure out what are the best players to play alongside LeBron before you say that team was built for him.
    That team was built poorly, period.

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    The Jazz broadcasters were talking about just that yesterday. The Jazz guys usually can’t stop talking about Deron to give some one else props.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Mo Williams is one player, one player that was not the right guy next to LeBron (you don’t bring in guys with 0 playoff experience to help win a championship, that is just stupid) What is your reasoning behind bringing in Shaq? Antawn Jamison? Cleveland did not build around LeBron for his strengths (which he doesn’t have a single strength to build around in the first place, he’s the perfect player, you just get the best players available and shooters, that’s all you should need) they built around LeBron for his star power. And that Philadelphia team had all league defenders. Cleveland has literally none. Plus Iverson was clearly a scorer with no interest in getting others involved, LeBron….not so much.

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    I’m with you on your assessment of those guys Allen, but whether Andy was suited to play with Bron or not, they played great together.
    Oh, and Chris Paul would be a better fit with that Suns team than Deron. Any team that doesn’t NEED a scorer at the Point would be better suited with CP. CP is putting up numbers similar to Nash in those years in a system that is the Anti D’antoni.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Could you imagine the team of Penny Hardaway, Tracy McGrady, Bernard King, Bob McAdoo and Bill Walton totally healthy without any injuries, just dominating? Throw in Shaun Livingston, Doug Collins, Grant Hill, Alanzo Mourning and Yao Ming off the bench, Len Bias as a 12th man, and voila! A recipe for getting me depressed about what could have been.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Allen the fallacy in what your saying is simple (about this MVP stuff), THE MVP is an award for the most valuable player to the team they are on. Not how good they are, or how good their team would be with someone else, its how good they are with the players they have at the time they have them. And like i’ve been saying, if Nash had a season ending injury (taking him off the team, and not adding anyone to replace him) then Phoenix would have been in worse shape comparatively then any other team in the league. (From best record to somewhere in the lottery) which literally implies in the english language, that he is the most valuable player

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    A lot of points could have gotten the suns to playoffs Allen. How many could have gotten them to 62 wins. I don’t care if you disagree with the Cavs thing or not. Lebrons “strength” is put the ball in his hands (taking it out of everyone elses) and let him make all the decisions. That was the plan in Cleveland. That’s why they brought in Mo, gave minutes to Gibson and brought in Jamison who does a lot of his work off broken plays and offensive glass work. Shaq was brought in when the other moves failed to help them get past the SIZE of the Magic(except Jamison who was a last ditch effort to get Lebron a talented teammate so he would stay). Mo Williams hit nearly 43% of his threes in Cleveland, awful I know. Varajao was the rebounding, defending enforcer type. No need with the Y’all. No one here agrees with me, I can take my lumps. I think you’re dead wrong so I could care less. Your whole basis for the Nash thing is just that you don’t like him and anyone who has been here for longer than a day knows that. I did not however realize you had such a hard on for Lebron. I’ll remember that the next time this conversation comes up.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    If Miami started the season 17-0 with all their top 6 playing a minimum of 30 minutes then Haslem got hurt and they finished 17 and 65 then he would be the MVP, only playing 17 games at 30 minutes while not being the best player or even top 3 players on his own team. That’s what most valuable means, value to your team. Not ability to play basketball

  • Heals

    Good to see a nice dose of Boston hate on this one, keep on ya’ll and enjoy that Rondo cover while you’re at it…

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Ok, so Nash fans belive that none of these point guards could have replaced Nash in either his first or second year in Phoenix and gotten those teams to the playoffs, just to be clear:
    Allen Iverson
    Stephon Marbury
    Jason Kidd
    Chauncey Billups
    Tony Parker
    Gilbert Arenas
    Gary Payton
    Baron Davis
    Andre Miller
    Mike Bibby
    Sam Cassell
    I believe that all of those players could have taken that initial Suns team to the playoffs, and, with the exception of Payton and Bibby, the rest of them could have gotten that second Suns team to the playoffs. Some of them would not have duplicated the same record, or enjoyed as much as success in the playoffs (some, not all) but they could have gotten them there.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    NBK
    The definiton of most valuable is malleable in the NBA.
    You’re telling that removing Nash would have done more damage to the Suns than removing Kobe from the Lakers team of that year. The team that started Smush, Kwame and Luke Walton! If the Suns are lottery bound without Nash, how many games does that team win without Kobe? 5? 8?
    (I’m assuming you’re using that year because using the first year with Joe JOhnson, Amare, Marion and Q Rich is ridiculous).
    There have been many different defintions of most valuable. Jordan would have never won MVP if the logic was “remove this guy and how does the team fare” because obviously, the Bulls could play quite well even without him as Pippen proved.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    that doesn’t matter one bit when talking about MVP. not one

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Oh wow, yeah, Boozer and Kirelenko definitely demand shots over Marion and Amare, who were pouting to D’Antoni everyday about getitng more shots, yeah, totally great example, thumps up.
    Deron isn’t a chucker, but he has played his best ball when he can use his amazing scoring to augment his passing.
    He’s not the right point guard for the Phoenix system. Sorry.
    Chris Paul would have been perfect and had the best possibility of getting the Suns to the Finals. Even then, I’m not sure. There was NO WAY he could have done it in 2007 because, as I said before, he could not have kept Amare on the bench and shot Donaghy in the heart… so we have to look at 2005, 2006, and 2008. In 2005, the Suns were missing Joe Johnson and had devised a great defensive strategy against them which left D’Antoni totally scratching his head. They forced Nash to become a scorer by cutting off all his passing lanes and trapping him in the corners… Nash responded well by putting up 23.2/10.6 and we all remember Amare going BALLISTIC on the one-on-one defenses they were throwing him and put up 37-10. Of course, Marion was absolutely awful without being set-up and put up a lousy 7.8 points a game, and without Joe Johnson as a third scorer, the Suns were killed in 5. I don’t see Paul helping out here at all. Deron actually would have done better, but probably not enough to get more than one extra victory out of the series.
    2008 was a crapshow, where the Spurs hit mystifying shot after mystifying shot. The Suns had a chance to win it on THREE separate occassions, and twice the shot was given to Diaw and once it was given to Shaq without an type of pick or support. Truly truly awful coaching. There was nothing Paul or Deron could have done to rectify this series, and although Nash performed AWFULLY in it (after the first two games which were losses by insane shots by Duncan and awful coaching, Nash was clearly shaken and fearful of losing AGAIN and just let the jitters get to him– 11-5 for the rest of the series), I don’t see Paul or Deron changing it, considering D’Antoni had the genius idea during the series to go away from Nash and try to beat the Spurs by ways they did not expect (and the team was unprepared for. Both Nash and Amare, in post-game interviews, said D’Antoni was calling for things they never practiced and simply weren’t comfortable doing. Poor Diaw).
    Soooo this leaves one year where things could have been different, and that’s 2006: the year where the Suns lost to the Mavs in 6. Nash played relatively well, going for 21 and 10 the entire game, but deferred setting up plays late in the game and didn’t look for his shots in the second half. This is where I think Chris Paul would have killed the Mavericks: he would have obliterated Harris on his drives and causes massive foul issues for the entire team, in a very similar fashion as Wade did to win the championship against them. Dallas also slowed down the Suns on the break, made them play a slower pace than they were comfortable with (mostly because Diaw was having a great series and The Suns were giving it to him to work with, which slowed things down). Paul would have pushed the pace on this one, something Deron hasn’t shown he can do in the more half-court oriented style of Utah.
    So yeah, I’ll say if Chris Paul played for Phoenix instead of Nash in 2006, they would have reached the finals.
    There ya go.
    Deron, not so much.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    *The Spurs had devised a great defensive strategy against them

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Are you not reading my comments? Like I already said, taking Nash off of Phoenix during his two MVP campaigns would have hurt phoenix more then any team in the league except Cleveland, and the second year is arguable. LAL would have been destroyed without Kobe, but that team barely made the playoffs anyway, and as we all know, winning consistently in the regular season is criteria #1 for MVP. The take him off this is just fine, take Jordan off chicago and they still win 50 games in much less dominating fashion, don’t get homecourt and lose in the playoffs. Add jordan and rodman and the team goes 72-10 and steamrolls the playoffs. From 55 to 72 is a huge difference. So yes, you could use that argument for Jordan’s MVP’s as well.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Jukai saying nash used to be one oof the fastest pgs in the league is beyond funny. ……… Crawford is the master of having it both ways, he changes his position when it suits his current argument. He hated on miami for beating weak teams, but now says sos doesnt matter. He does that type of thing all the time.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Yeesh, I shoulda proof read that one. During the 2006 part, meant to say Nash shot 21 and got 10 dimes over the entire series… meant to say he would have obliterated Harris on drives and caused massive foul issues for the entire Maverick team… Gotta actually write this stuff out, and not just plop down what I’m in the comment box.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    So on one hand replace MVP Nash with capable guards and they’re in the playoffs thus negating his MVP awards because, while they wouldn’t win as many games or enjoy as much success in the playoffs they would still be decent. On the other hand take Jordan off the Bulls, and they play comparably well, though not as well. They make the Playoffs but don’t win the championship though, thus validating his MVPs because they’re not quite as good without him. I get it. So taking a good team to an elite team has no relevance to when it involves Steve Nash, but it does when it involves Micheal Jordan? Ok. Thanks for clearing that up Allen. Again, you hate Nash. Period. Conversation over.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    If the league followed the best player criteria for MVP Kobe would have way more then 1, Shaq and Duncan would have shared every MVP for an 7 year stretch 98-05, and LeBron would win MVP every year until he’s in his 30′s. But I respect you standing by your guns as much as i totally disagree with your definition of most valuable player

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Didn’t Russell get the MVP the same time Chamberlain was scoring 50 points a game and Oscar was averaging a triple double? Apparently even 40 years ago, Allen’s definition of MVP didn’t make sense.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Nash’s MVPs just validate that Jason Kidd who shot 38% and led his (entirely different from the year before) Nets team to a measly 52 wins deserved an MVP.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Although if you put Nash on that Nets team they probably win the same amount of games and Nash would have been a more reliable scorer. I wonder if he would have gotten the same outcry for MVP.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Naw that year Tim Duncan went for 25, 12, 3.7 and 2.5. And played all 82 games, I think his MVP was well deserved

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    NBK I definitely do also. Being sarcastic.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    The west also had 4 teams with better records then the Nets, and San Antonio won 6 more games. I mean, you can’t take the best season’s in the GOAT PF’s career away just because you feel like if Nash got MVP then Kidd sure should have earlier. Plus those Phoenix teams won more games in the regular season in a much much tougher conference. When Kidd did that for New Jersey the east was a joke

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    whew my bad Bryan, lol…i’m not so good at sensing sarcasm in the comment section. My fault

  • ripslam

    Is this the most commented Post Up in history?

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    This isn’t the most commented post up over the last week, let alone history. During the BETCAT era comment sections like this were slow. Don’t get a big head BET that is just the only way to make a relatable statement. If I said the tadone days people would be more worried about where he went then how it used to be.

  • JTaylor21

    I second Jukai’s 5:15pm post. Put that lineup up against any other all-nba team and I bet they hold their own. I just went back and looked at every all-nba first team from ’46 to ’10 and the ones that stood out to me in terms of all-time greats were the ’66, ’85, ’87, ’88, and ’07 teams. The best out of those was probably the 87 all-nba team becuase Magic and Bird were still in their prime while MJ/Barkely/Hakeem were at their athletic peak. That was the year MJ won his first MVP, Bird put up an absurd 30/9/6, Barkley dropped 28/12/3, Magic put up 20/6/12, and Hakeem dropped 22/12/2/2.1/2.7. I can’t think of any other all-nba team capable of beating those guys in a game.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    When you were typing your pithy and extended response, did you bother to go check out the shot attempts for Okur, Ak and Boozer?
    I’m just curious because, to be honest, once you wrote what you wrote, I did check out the shot attempts. Why don’t you go do that, then come back and tell me Deron Williams doesn’t know how to manage teammates who need shots.
    I’m going to type this in all caps, so i apologize to those that don’t like that:
    I DIDN’T INTRODUCE THE IDEA THAT TAKING A PLAYER OFF A TEAM IS THE BEST WAY TO DETERMINE WHO IS THE MVP. NOR DID I SAY THAT WAS TOTALLY INVALID.
    I SAID THAT IF YOU SAID “REMOVE NASH” YOU NEEDED TO SPECIFY WHETHER YOU MEANT REMOVE HIM WITH NO REPLACEMENT OR REMOVE HIM WITH A COMPARABLE OR AT LEAST DECENT REPLACEMENT.
    MOREVOVER, MY POINT WAS THAT IF YOU USE THAT LOGIC, WHICH I DIDN’T INTRODUCE, THEN YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE TEAM’S KOBE AND LEBRON DRAGGED TO RESPECTABILITY WITH FAR LESS TALENT AND FAR MORE AWE INSPIRING INDIVIDUAL STATISTICS.
    SEE, NASH FANS WANT TO POINT TO HIM AS THE CATALYST AND THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND THOSE TEAMS, AND IGNORE THE RIDICULOUS AMOUNT OF CUMULATIVE TALENT ON BOTH TEAMS. THEN THEY WANT TO SAY HE COULDN’T HAVE THE RIDICULOUS STATS OF OTHER MVPS BECAUSE HE WAS SURROUNDED BY SO MUCH TALENT.
    It really is amazing, and I have no interest in trying to convince people any differently at this point.
    I contend that if you say what LeBron did in Cleveland wasn’t that great, or that his team was built to make him better, then you need to start to use that same logic to disparage Steve Nash because he also had a system and team built to suit him.
    But, nobody seems to understand that logic. We’re going to pretend that LeBron’s team didn’t have gaping holes that DID NOT suit his skillset, and claim that what he did, driving that bunch to 60 and 66 wins wasn’t that big of a deal.
    Whatever. I really don’t care much anymore.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And it’s hilarious that you all are telling me that my criteria for MVP doesn’t make sense, even though the award has never had a stated criteria, and their is no unbiased way to determine value.
    Apparently, it’s ok to add on the ridiculous caveat that you can only consider a player’s value if their team is winning a lot of games, but it’s not ok to add on the caveat that the player must be in the discussion for best overall in the league.
    Why is that okay? Because certain people say so.
    That is really, really freaking hilarious. I mean, seriously, that’s hilarious.
    Every era, sportwriters have invented different categories for MVP. Every era. Y’all can believe what you like.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Cosign allen. Nash fans(and lots of other types) are just crazy. They switch up their reasonings to suit current debates. They have every excuse in the book ready to defend their guy. Yet, hate on others with no real reasoning. …….. Nash fans really enjoy trying to argue from both sides at the same time. They also say crazy things, like jukai saying nash used to be one of the fastest pgs. ……… ………. … TEDDY HAS EARNED A SUPER DELUXE PERMANENT DUNCE CAP!!! For saying darko will be a future all star. Get lucid!

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    The team was built before Nash got there. Marion, Amare, Johnson and D’Antoni were all there before Nash signed. So it actually wasn’t built for him. What I will say is that if you could find a guy with similar talents to Lebron and put them on the Cavs they would be pretty damn good. Lebron is a unique talent though. Maybe a prime Grant Hill, or a Prime T Mac. Scottie Pippen? All those guys could win with that squad. Probably even Dwyane Wade and Paul Pierce could have done it.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Also Brandon Roy.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Let me say this to be clear. Nash fit that team and system like a glove. He was a huge reason why they won 62 games.
    but he took a good team particularly the first year andmade them great. He didn’t take a horrible team and make them great. It is arguable whether his performance was.better than those turnednin ny bron, shaq, duncan or wade. The fact that he wasn’t close to the best player in the league and that he didn’t put up great stats makes his performance less outstanding to me.
    Same thingfor the second.year given kobe’ s stats and re talnet around him and what bron did. That is my stance.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    The hardest thing to do is take real world results; remove a key/the key player from said team and project what they would be like without them or with a ‘softer’ replacement…. There really can’t be a correct/true answer as to the outcome. Not saying don’t bother to do it – it makes for great discussion – but don’t get so fired up that you think someone else is completely incorrect.
    ______________________________________________________________
    Let me validate that by saying, as a Steve Nash fan I’m CHEERING for his MVPness…but would have loved to see what the situation would look like if Tim Duncan was in there and not Amar’e.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    No bryan. Id say only a prime tmac, but even then, the record wouldnt have been as good, but who knows?. And since no one else mentioned it VINCE CARTER with the big game and thebig 20,000!!! Congrats vince, and eff the haters…….. ………… ….. Allen, is there no one to proofread at your paper? Akfjfjfjdmsng jdffndllfmttusx fjjfjfjrxbdbshsyf

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And winning is one thing. Winning 60+ is different. And if wade and roy can barelywin with teams with even more talent I doubt they could have done what bron did with that horrible talent.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    Also: What the flip has happened to the MAVERICKS?
    _____
    Dirk was an early runner for the MVP award; thats all but gone out the window now.
    —-
    A QUESTION: So Neither LeBron nor Dwade get a look in for the MVP award this season…. HOW CLOSE TO ALL NBA 1st TEAM DO THEY GET THOUGH??? I’d Put LeBron on 1st team with Wade on 2nd team.
    —-
    For the record this is my order for MVP contention:
    1. D. Rose
    2. L. James
    3. K. Bryant
    4. A. Stoudemire
    5. B. Griffin
    6. T. Parker
    7. P. Pierce
    8. D. Wade
    9. M. Ginobili
    10. R. Rondo

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    On any given week, Dwight Howard would get a look-in too.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    I agree with that contention, Nash made a good team great. Kobe made a bad team mediocre. Shaq and Wade cancelled each other out, but you can actually make a case for Lebron. Although I think the idea of his supporting cast being just trash is an excuse of convenience, since they were just fine when they were winning 66 games, then magically they were awful because a better team eliminated them. I know I’m a Lebron hater here, but the reality is I think he’s an outstanding talent, with absurd physical tools. I think he has the ability to be the best player in the game, just that IMO he doesn’t work on the aspects of his game that are lacking. That’s not a part of this debate but it needed to be said. I have no issue with Lebron winning MVP when he did. But to say Nash didn’t deserve his because he didn’t score 25 a game or whatever is crazy to me. I know the MVP is a regular season award but he validated his MVP in the post season by boosting his stats tremendously which according to anyone who has ever discussed basketball is a mark of a great one. Also I get that Amare was a good player before Nash got there but to me? There a big difference between 20.6 points on 47.5% from the floor and 26 on 55.9%. The guy did work and he deserved to win those MVPs. That’s my two cents. Amare is also shooting about 5 percent lower this year since not playing with Nash. Just saying. He’s still playing great, but not as easily great.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    Allenp – I agree with you ALOT…. The 2 MVP awards could have gone to Kobe, Tim Duncan, LeBron amongst 1 or 2 others even and they would have been appropriate MVP material…. I’m sure that Nash got his 2nd MVP off the momentum of the first one. With the mindset of the voters being something along the lines of “well why SHOULDN’T he get it again”…more often than not, I tend to think that the voters by and large don’t usually use that approach and may tend to vote accordingly by the reasoning…” well why SHOULD they get it again…?”. Nash’s popularity got him across the line and history will maintain his award.
    ____
    It’s not all about the stat line. It helps to be a nice guy too! Hey LeBron!!………

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    HEY EVERYONE, SORRY IF ANYONE MISUNDERSTAND ME BUT CAPLOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    FIRST OFF, I DID NOT LOOK WHEN I MADE THAT STATEMENT BUT I DID RIGHT NOW AND MAYBE YOU WERE CALLING MY BLUFF BUT WHAT THE F*CK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? CARLOS BOOZER SHOT JUST AS MUCH AS MARION AND NEITHER OKUR OR AK TOUCHED STAT IN TERMS OF SHOT AMOUNTS! FURTHER MORE, NEITHER BOOZ NOR AK NOR OKUR COMPLAINED ABOUT HOW MANY SHOTS THEY WERE GETTING WHILE AMARE AND MARION CONSTANTLY COMPLAINED, NASH HAD TO WALK ON A TIGHT ROPE GETTING THEM THE TOUCHES THEY NEEDED TO DULL THE COMPLAINING.
    LOOK, IF THE CONVERSATION IS UPSETTING YOU, PLEASE GET OUT OF IT. I KNOW IT’S UNUSUAL THAT THREE PEOPLE DISAGREE WITH YOU ON ONE SUBJECT, BUT PERHAPS IT’S TIME TO COME TO TERMS THAT YOU CAN’T LOGICALLY, YES I USED THE WORD, LOGICALLY CRITICIZE WHEN IT COMES TO NASH. YOU KEEP STATING THE SUPERIOR TEAMMATES NASH HAS HAD, BUT NASH’S TIME IN PHOENIX WAS SPENT WORKING WITH A CONSTANTLY INJURED AMARE, A JOE JOHNSON WHO IS NOT EFFECTIVE OFF THE BALL AND A SHAWN MARION WHO, DESPITE YOUR CONSTANT COMPLAINTS OTHERWISE, IS TERRIBLE WITHOUT A POINT GUARD. YES, YOU CAN USE USELESS KEYWORDS LIKE “ROLE” AND “SHOT ATTEMPTS” BUT MARION WASN’T GOOD UNLESS BEING FED BY KIDD, MARBURY, AND NASH… AND HIS BEST DAYS WERE WITH NASH. EVERYONE ELSE WAS SCRUBS, DIAW AND BELL WERE HIS NEXT BEST PLAYERS! I LOVE THEM TO DEATH BUT THEY AIN’T GREAT! SO PLEASE, DO EVERYONE A FAVOR AND STOP TALKING ABOUT NASH!
    THANKS!
    CAPLOCK!!!!

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Howndid wade and shaq cancel each other.out but Amare and marion not cancel out nash?
    because people attributed those players development to nash even though it was obviously wrong. I mean Amare was 20 and 9 without nash, marion was 20 and 10 and jj put.up 16. Nash and mike d made them more efficient but they didn’t MAKE them good. That is the sort ologic that irks me.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    By the way, while we’re talking about all the guys who deserved MVP when Nash won it, does anyone want to discuss the fact that Nash arguably deserved it in 2006-2007 when Dirk got it?
    No? We don’t want to talk about how he deserved it?
    Okay.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    ok. Whatever you say buddy. Findingshots.for Boozer okur and ak in sloan’s system while getting his own stats in no way proves deron could have done it for the suns. Ok he is a product of sloan and his system. Ok.
    riddle me this folks. If rondo clearly benefits from passing pass their prime greats, how did nash benefit from his talent?

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Allen: Hey, riddler, you just compared Amare/Marion FIRST to Shaq/Wade and then to Garnett/Allen/Pierce.
    I mean, a major flaw in your logic is that Marion is an awful offensive player without help from a point guard, but you know, “role” “shot attempts” blah blah.
    Plus, it’s clear that Nash is a product of D’Antoni and the system. BUT SAYING ANOTHER PERSON IS HELPED BY A SYSTEM? Oh no how dare I! Williams clearly isn’t aided by Sloan, who Stockton admitted ran half of his play calls.
    Yawn.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Plus, while this sh*t fest is riveting, I’d also like to add a tangent discussion: if Spoelstra doesn’t find it in himself to bench Joel Anthony and use Dampier/Big Z more, Miami may lose out on their championship. And I’m only being half sarcastic. Dude is that bad of a decision maker, and he played 11 minutes in that first quarter.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Let’s get this out there, Nash’s first MVP should have gone to Shaq, I will never waiver from that stance. His second MVP was arguably deserved, and so would deron or chris or anyone else that takes that collection of guys to the best record in the west. That team was different from the year before at 3 positions in the starting lineup, it basically traded out Joe Johnson Quentin Richardson and Amare Stoudemire for Jim Jackson, Boris Diaw and Tim Thomas. If that trade happened today we would be pining for something closer to the Pau Gasol trade. LeBron and Kobe both have a legitimate case for MVP that season but I would have given a 1a to Nash 1b to Kobe 1C to LeBron. And Allen I pointed out the team must be winner because in every nBA season for the last 25 years the MVP has been on a 50 game winner if im not mistaken

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Oh and the notion that your statistics have to jump off the page is an absolute crock of sh*t. That’s like saying Kevin Garnett’s DPOY trophy wasn’t deserved.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Tarzan… UMAD?! Darko is a good player and he’ll only get better. I didn’t mean he’ll for sure be an all-star in the future, but he has that potential right now. You just haven’t watched him play.

  • JTaylor21

    Jukai, I think you’re wrong on that one. Joel Anthony is actually perfect for a team like the Hawks who lack a true low post threat. His speed and quickness is a good match for Al Horford. The one guy that has no buisness on the court is Howard, I mean what the hell does he bring to the team. He can’t make a jumpshot, he lacks the foot speed to stay with most forwards, so what does he bring to a team? Don’t give me that veteran leadership crap because this team has more than enough old guys.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    JTaylor: He’s thrown the ball away twice, walked twice without being called when he grabbed a rebound… and when Lebron starts playing point forward and House starts hitting shots, the commentators are giving Joel ALL the credits. F that.
    Howard’s shot is off because his rotation is yanked like crazy. I’m just not that impressed with Joel but he gives the Miami staff and the commentators a hardon. He can’t score for sh*t, does not block out for rebounds, but hey, he’s 20th in blocks!

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    I mean, how are you going to get good when everyday you have another lineup? Why even play Arroyo and Big z if you are never gong to see them ever again after they start?

  • JTaylor21

    Jukai, you make a great points but would you really play two slow players vs an athletic team like the hawks?

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Been thinking about this, did Spoelstra use LBJ’s ankle sprain to revamp the rotation and sneak MM into other peoples minutes? It was smart and seamless, didn’t grab a headline didn’t ruffle feathers. Anyone else notice that?

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    JTaylor: for the sake of continuity, yes. What you do is shift the minutes: so instead of playing Arroyo 25 and Chalmers 20, play Arroyo 15 and Chalmers 30. Or replace Arroyo with House.
    In my opinion though, there’s no reason for Big Z to not be playing, ESPECIALLY when Jason Collins is on.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Okay, Anthony is working hard to prove me wrong this game

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    And as I give Joel props, he steals a rebound from Howard, almost turns it over, then bobbles a rebound on the next possession causing a fast break for the Hawks (I’m watching it on delay, yeah).
    I hate Anthony.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    The suns team nash’s second mvp year was really biased. There were a lot of players around 9- 11 points per game. Nash had the same stats he had good not great stats. Is the argument basically that those players were all bums before meetingnash?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And why the hell doesn’t joel go hard to the glass all the time?

  • JTaylor21

    Jukai, I agree with you and I see what you’re talking about with the announcers. What really irks me is the lack of offensive sets. I mean I haven’t seen one called offensive play the entire 2nd half, everything has being iso after iso and PnR basketball. Wade takes his turn going one-on-one then bron does the same. This bs won’t work in the playoffs. You have to be seeing the same thing.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Biased = balanced.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    Big Z’s height, couple with his outside touch and his knack for being productive without the ball/providing spacing etc makes him a top 10 centre in the league….

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    JTaylor: Yes, but I think that’s mostly because of the weird rotations and no one being comfortable playing with each other. Lebron/Wade don’t know what to do so they go one on one.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    @ Allenp: Chris Bosh told Joel Anthony not to; he didn’t want to get hurt inadvertently.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    Does coach Paul Westphal lose his job after using D. Cousins to make a GAME WINNING INBOUNDS PASS? Dude throws the ball away shock-horror… Now THATS how you throw a game to start getting in on the HIGH DRAFT PICK action…

  • JTaylor21

    See what I’m talking about on the last play. No play call just give to wade, let him dribble for 10 seconds and then give to Bron to chuck up a deep three. Red auerbach would be rolling over in his grave.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Now, I’m more venting than anything, but I said about five or six Heat games ago that I’m really worried about the Heat’s rotation and I think Spo is gonna mess things up. Now, of course there’s injuries and stuff, but the Heat have lost four in a row. All of those games, the rotations have been apesh*t horrible. How do the Heat expect to win if they the players have no idea when they will play and who they will play with?

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    No point in continuing this conversation.

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Bryan: With allenp, there really was no point in the beginning.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    I see that now. I forgot replacing Amare with Boris and Joe Johnson with Raja Bell is seemless!

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    haha, I wish I could delete comments. That was an unneeded jab. I just wish the dude admitted that he’s ludicrously biased in any conversation involving Nash. He does it with other players, but when talking about Nash, it’s like the gospel.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Jukai posted Oct 13, 2010:
    Eboy, if it means anything, nobody has EVER asked me to write a Phoenix Suns preview. But in fairness, I’ve burned more bridges than a firebomb raid with the writers and editors here, sooooooo…
    _____________________________________________
    Begging…

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    ^^^^^^^^^
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    You are such a failure.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Teddy, while it looks like darko is improving, or more accurately, playing like he did in orlando, your all star prediction is pure looney toons……… ……….. ….. The steve nash suns have never been an elite team

  • http://fklsdf.com Jukai

    Tarzan: Yer right, they were only considered elite cause of Nash

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    No. They were never real contenders. They were at the top of the second level, but never got into the top level.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Jukai:
    You said that there was not “ANYTHING” pertaining claim. It is not a fail.
    So, your referencing how SLAM has never asked you to write for them and the “bridges you burned” is not indicative of an intense and overwhelming desire to attain a writing gig at SLAM.
    I feel you. smh
    Did anyone on that thread even ask you if SLAM considered you for a gig? Before you referenced it, did anyone even suggest that you receive an invitation from SLAM to write for them?
    No.
    You witnessed the love and adulation that Allen received that day, and you wanted in. To mask that envy, you also showered him with praise AND encouragement. When in reality, you were jealous. Envious.
    Fraudulent.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    *to my claim*

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    My bad on the Allenp reference regarding Jukai.
    Now, THAT was a fail.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    You were jealous of Myles Brown, instead. lol

Advertisement