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Thursday, January 6th, 2011 at 8:30 am  |  204 responses

Post Up: No Luck Needed

C’s knock out Spurs, while the Nets down the Bulls (!).

by Adam Figman | @afigman

New Jersey 96, Chicago 94

Ben covered the game’s first storyline—that Derrick Favors got his first career start, albeit one followed by a quiet performance. The second is that the Nets overcame  many obstacles—the main one being that they’re the Nets—to squeeze out a victory. Sasha Vujacic (hey!) found the ball in his hands with 5 seconds left, and he put in a floater that broke the 94-all tie and won the game for Jersey. Derrick Rose led the losing squad with 21 points.

Toronto 120, Cleveland 105

Two of the East’s bottom dwellers faced off, and the Raptors came out on top behind Jose Calderon’s season-high 17 dimes. Andrea Bargnani dropped 25, while Antawn Jamison scored 32 in the losing effort. Toronto followed the “shoot better than 55 percent from the field, and you’ll probably win” strategy, and, apparently, it worked. (They shot 56.8 percent, by the way. That’ll do it, more often than not.)

Philadelphia 109, Washington 97

You don’t expect a team led by a rookie to be too hot on the road, but 0-17—well, that’s pretty damn cold. John Wall did manage 18 points and 14 assists, but the Sixers outlasted the Wiz in the final quarter and came out on top. Philly guards Jrue Holiday and Lou Williams each went for 26,  and Andres Nocioni put up a smooth 10 and 10 double-double.

Orlando 97, Milwaukee 87

Even with Andrew Bogut on the floor, the Bucks couln’t contain Dwight Howard (28 points, 13 boards), who fueled the Magic offensively and defensively in the W. All Orlando starters scored in double figures (as did sixth man JJ Redick), and the Magic won their seventh straight as they continue to cruise. We were bouncing around potential Eastern Conference Playoff matchups yesterday in the SLAM Dome, and the most likely scenario seems to be the Magic overcoming the Bulls and earning the third spot, while the Knicks hold ground and maintain the sixth spot, giving us the Knicks-Magic battle we somehow never got in the 90s. Color me excited.

Boston 105, San Antonio 103

The night’s premier matchup lived up to the hype, and it better have, given that Coach Popovich started planning for this one at some point during the fourth quarter of Tuesday night’s Knicks-Spurs game. Down nine with just under a minute to go, the Spurs charged back, getting stop after stop and hoop after hoop until they were down 2 with the ball and about 7 ticks left. Butt Manu Ginobili’s final shot over Paul Pierce, well, didn’t get over Pierce, and the C’s hung on. Rajon Rondo—who’s very much back, if you haven’t noticed—scored 12, dished 22, and stole 6, while Ray Allen led Boston with 31 points off 13-16 shooting.

Charlotte 108, Minnesota 105

No Stephen Jackson. No Gerald Wallace. No big deal. DJ Augustin scored 8 points in the game’s final 2:08 seconds during OT to lead the Cats–who overcame a 35-point, 15-rebound night from Kevin Love—to victory. Paul Silas showed a lot of love for his starting pg, and it paid off handsomely, which was a sight to see on a Charlotte team that’s had its share of point guard problems in the past.

Golden State 110, New Orleans 103

The Warriors were down after three quarters, but they overcame that petty problem with a 38-point fourth quarter and some quality offensive chemistry. The Hornets, meanwhile, seem to be lacking that little factor, as Chris Paul (24 points, 13 dimes) continues to put up numbers in losing efforts. Remember that point when the Bees had one of the League’s best records and everyone thought this might be their season? Yeah, me neither.

Portland 103, Houston 100

As both of these two are fighting over the same Playoff spot (eighth in the Left Coast), this one was bound to be heated. And even though Kevin Martin answered the call to the tune of a 45-point showing, his teammates didn’t do the same, as his squad fell to the Blazers. The Rockets couldn’t get the ball in Martin’s hands as time was expiring, and Courtney Lee forced up a three that had no shot as the clock hit double zeros.

Atlanta 110, Utah 87

Every other contending East Coast team—including the Knicks,who are behind them in the standings—seems to have more buzz than the Hawks, but if they can put up nights like this on a regular basis, don’t sleep on ‘em. Joe Johnson scored 28 (and put in 5 threes), and Jamal Crawford dropped 26 as Atlanta easily handled Utah on the road. The Jazz shot only 39.4 percent, which isn’t gonna cut it when the Hawks have all of their pieces moving accordingly.

LA Clippers 106, Denver 93

We expect Blake Griffin to put up huge numbers—which he did (22 points, 18 boards)—and to throw down some monster jams—which he did (expect a video post or two later today)—but we don’t expect the Clippers to actually, you know, win. But hey. DeAndre Jordan (14 points, 20 rebounds) added some assistance, as the Clips led for most of the game and held on in the final quarter. Funny how the commentator in the video recap I just checked out described LAC as “red hot,” even though they were on a two-game losing streak and have now won just three of five, but I guess low standards are a must when discussing these guys. They now stand at 11-24.

L.A. Lakers 99, Phoenix 95

I  constantly waver on tons of NBA-related things every day, but this much I’m pretty confident about: the Lakers will be just fine. They’re old, and it’s a long season, but they’ll be back in postseason form before you and I know it. Last night was decent assurance of that, as they defeated a relatively solid Suns team on the road. Kobe Bryant headed the balanced effort with 24, while Jared Dudley led the losing group with 21. The Suns, meanwhile, well—the jury’s out on whether or not they’ll be alright. At this point, a Steve Nash trade might be looming, it appears. Anyone know of any good potential suitors?

Actual Stats: Kevin Love: 35 points, 15 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 threes.

Moment of the Night: Sasha!

(Yeah, no footage of the end of Celtics-Spurs up yet. Will update if any pops up later today. Back tomorrow, folks.)

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  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    That was a nice preview of the 2011 NBA Finals last night.

  • paul

    Rondo, not Love, clearly had the Stat Beast night.

  • Stepfan

    VOTE FOR KEVIN LOVE TO BE AN ALL-STAR.!!!!!!! Losing record or not this man is balling night end and night out. Wizards please fire Flip Saunders. 0-17 on the road? I know my squad is bad but were not that bad. Eddie Jordan in the wings waiting.

  • Scott

    Blake Griffin had another ho hum game too. 22 points 18 boards 7 dimes and made Baron Davis relevant again.

  • http://slamonline.Com Bryan Crawford

    With the game on the line like that, DRose HAS to have a greater sense of urgency and must be more decisive. Last night was the 3rd time that’s happened this season (BOS, PHX, NJN) where he’s had the ball in his hands late and either didn’t get a good look, didn’t get the shot off in time, or just didn’t make the right play.
    He’s been great all season, but he has to get better when the game is on the line like that. Thibs bears a lot of the blame too for benching Booz. That was a game they shouldn’t have lost.

  • riggs

    the freaking refs almost gave the game to the spurs in the final seconds last night, C’s were up by 8 or 6 and the ball was given to pierce for the foul. Not only did they not call the foul (hill wrapped his arms around pierce wtf) but the ball came out of his hands for a quick layup. Refs should be fined for stupid things like that

  • Bruno

    as much as I hate this celtics, the stats of the day should have been for Rondo, he had a triple double with 6 steals and his team won the game and it was against the team with the best record in the league … not disrespecting what love did but gotta recognize what rondo did

  • add

    the sixers are gonna roll thru their next 10 games, they got a easy schedule

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    RONDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • add

    the sixers are gonna roll thru their next 10 games, they got a easy schedule.

  • Swamp Fox

    Can anyone else sense the fear in the pic?

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    That Clippers frontcourt is SO much fun to watch. At one point in the fourth, Blake had an open path at the top of the key, took a dribble then floated a beaut of an alleyoop pass to DJ (20 rebs, 5 blks Whaaattt?) who cut baseline, soared over Nene and flushed it. I mean, the pass alone made me a belated Griffin fan.

  • Scott

    When the hell is Denver trading Melo?

  • apeman

    gues even the clippers can win if their two big men combine for 38 rebounds… some teams don’t even grab 38 rebounds in certain games.

  • Scott

    When is Denver trading Melo?

  • apeman

    gues even the clippers can win if their two big men combine for 38 rebounds… some teams don’t even grab 38 rebounds in certains games.

  • Bruno

    what’s with everybody double posting

  • http://www.slamonline.com Nick Tha Quick

    The Machine is now The Closer! Nice to see the Purp and Gold get back to winning albeit against not so good teams. Funny seeing VC getting mauled in the post trying to defend Ron Ron. 250> 210. And the Spurs are real. Like Doc said, it took a 61% FG game at home to win by a shot against them.

  • Scott

    My bad my comment wouldnt go.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    Blake also had 7 assists, and ofcourse Bruno mentioned rondo’s triple double, he also had 10 boards slam! @Eboy, last night was a bad decision by Rose, but he had alot of great moments during crunchtime. The 3 pointer against Houston to go to OT, the gamewinning 3point play against Cle, the 2 clutch buckets against LA, a lay-up with 0,00 seconds to go against Phoenix to force 2OT.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    I also am enjoying the return of a Baron Davis who’s having fun playing again. As soon as he lets go of a pass, he’s gesturing to the crowd and celebrating the impending dunk by one of his high flyers. Gotta enjoy yourself out there.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    Sorry, I mean @Bcrawford :P My bad

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Last week, Rondo’s ankle was so swollen, Team was worried; yesterday he nearly had a quad-dub (6 steals too). Geeezus.

  • Max

    Boston shot 61% and barely won at home by 2…

  • Scott

    Boston didnt have KG you know the best player on the team and still won.

  • T-Money

    Doom Dizzle is having a ball. He’s even getting cocky with the way he’s casually lobbing those passes. Clippers are must see TV.

  • Conoro

    Garnett didn’t play…

    And if the officials actually did their jobs, it would have been the ten-point game it truly was.

    Coming from a Lakers fan.

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    Good point Scott. Regarding NOH/GSW, when CP3 went out for his normal rest at beggining of the 4th, NOH were up 12. 2 minutes later they were down, CP coming back in and a late run couldn’t get the momentum back. He had 24, 13, 6 on 6-12, 2-2 from 3. Without Millsap the Jazz were pretty ordinary, shows you how important he is to that teams success. Imagine the numbers CP could put up in a fast paced offense (and imagine the no of wins they would lead to with a serviceable SG). Jahmai – D Rose has also missed a game tying FT, and been passive in clutch moments as B Crawford stated. As stellar as his play has been, he is only the 3rd/4th best PG in the L. I can’t call it between him and Rondo.

  • http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/ Anthony

    As a Spurs fan, im trying to see the positive, the Celtics shot freaking 61%, we didnt play our best game and they only won by 2. And i really dont mind those back-to-back looses, we have to realise we’re not a very good defensive team yet. We have streches where we can be solid but it wont be enough against the Lakers during the playoffs (cause yes, i think we’ll meet L.A in the conference finals). The good thing is, we have time to correct that, and offensivly i think we’re almost there.

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    The Spurs are not going to be big enough to beat LA if Bynum is healthy come the post-season. That isn’t correctable in house for SAS, so unless someone else manages to beat LA before Conference Finals then its just going to be a great regular season and dissapointing play-off exit for SAS.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Moose

    Forgot to mention that Rondo also grabbed 10 boards for the triple-double and came quasi-close to a quadruple-double with the steals. Rondo for MVP, come on now. I’m gonna say it again: I told you so.

  • Zoom

    Ok, so I know DRose is an excellent young player. I get the hype. However, if a POINT GUARD can score but can only give you 1 assist how is he better than Rondo? DRose is more athletic and a better scorer, but as a point guard Rondo>DRose.

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    Rondo for MVP? Take a look at BOS record without him. Its hard to argue he is the Most Valuable Player in the whole league to his team, when his team is successful without him.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Kevin Garnett has been the best Celtic this season. He just doesn’t put up gaudy numbers

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Moose

    All I’m saying is, he’s the best player on the best team, which is how many people define the award. I don’t THINK he will win it, but he does deserve consideration.

  • Bruno

    rondo is the mvp of the celtics but not his leader or not to just everybody, did you see in last night final play how Pierce wouldnt pay him attention, that wouldn happen if KG was calling him and come playoff time they are gonna need that leader in the court … they were lucky Manu kind of slipped up cause he was red hot

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Millsap is just as important to Utah as David West is to New Orleans. No more, no less.
    The difference is Utah has Al Jefferson as well.
    Paul makes a huge difference for that team, but his ball domination also makes them completely dependent on him to create shots. Now, most of the team looks like they couldn’t create a shot to save their lives, but I remember when people used to say that about the Phoenix Suns.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I’ve been saying that about the Spurs and Bynum for am minute. They don’t have the size. McDyess, Blair and Bonner will not get it done against Boston, Orlando or the Lakers. The Spurs better hope Dallas knocks the Lakers out.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    KG is the MVP for the Celtics. Actually, Rondo and KG might be co-MVPS. Neither is more important than the other or more valuable.

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    How can you come to that conclusion? UTA beat ATL in ATL with Millsap, but lost by double digits at home without him. NOH lost to OKC by 4 at home with D West, by 4 on the road without him. That’s right, Al Jefferson is a difference maker. Deron has two guys who can create their own offense in the front court. Paul is leading the L in win shares (last I checked), and if his team is completely dependent on him, doesn’t that mean that D West isn’t that important? What Phoenix Suns are you referring to? I know your not comparing D West to Johnson, Marion or Amar’e. I suppose you could make the Marion comparison I suppose, but Johnson and Amar’e are 1st options on play-off teams, something D West could not do.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Allen, used to say that about phoenix? Outside of Grant and Goran (everything is a shot right, even this!!!) the suns are still completely dependent on Nash to create shots. Well actually I guess Vince now too, but ehh

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    Also, D West missed the home game, not road game. I typed that wrong.

  • T-Money

    Allen: I disagree. If Rondo is not healthy in the playoffs, the Celtics can cope with Delonte and Nate backing him up. If KG is not healthy, the Celts can pack their ish and go home.

  • T-Money

    I also find that Bynum’s impact is ofter overstated, especially in the playoffs. He rarely plays more than 20 minutes in the playoffs and never touches the floor in the 4th quarter.

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    Looking back, it may have been the Knick game D West missed. Ignore that part of my statement.

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    If Pop plays two bigs, they will be outsized. If he plays RJ as the ’4′, they will still be outsized with Lamar.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    T-Money if Bynum’s impact was overrated they would have already 3-peated, and Phil would not have made him play on one leg during the playoffs.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Lol.
    DWest is pretty close to Millsap as a player, mainly because he’s more consistent offensively even if his rebounding leaves a lot to be desired.
    The Hornets have nobody on Al Jefferson’s level. That’s what makes Deron’s job easier when Al comes to play.
    However, the Jazz run an offense that is predicated on ball movement, picks and cutting. Everybody has spots and assignments and they carry those out regardless of who is on the floor. The HOrnets have an offense that consists of “Please find me a shot Chris.”
    Just because you lack talent doesn’t mean you can’t have a real offense. The Celtics run the same sets with their scrubs that they run with their stars. So do the Spurs, and the Mavs. Of course, with stars everything looks better, but the scrubs can still carry out assignments and get some shots if you have set roles for them to fill.
    Neither Phoenix or New Orleans use that method. They have designed an offense where the point guard creates everything. That’s why the Suns struggled with Amare, Marion, Joe Johnson and Quentin Richardson on the floor without Nash, because the player they playing the point had no idea how to do his part in the offense. And without him doing his part, the entire offense stalled out. Not because the other players couldn’t play, or create shots, but because they couldn’t do that in that offense. Think about it.
    The reason the Celtics would be ok without Rondo is because his back up is Nate Robinson. The reason they won’t be okay without KG is because his back up is Glen Davis. There is a much greater drop off from KG to DAvis than from Rondo to Nate, even if Rondo is clearly a better point guard. Nate does other things Rondo doesn’t do, and he can play defense. Davis, while talented, cannot have anything close to the impact that KG has on either end.
    Bynum occupies space, causes fouls and relieves the burdens of Pau Gasol. This cannot be measured in minutes played, you have to look at the roles filled when each of them is on the floor.
    Bynum and Gasol together create matchup problems for the entire league, but even when they dont play together, just Bynum by himself causes problems for a large number of big men, and EVERY reserve big man in the league.
    Whew…

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Looks like ray allen couldnt miss EXCEPT for both clutch fts. Sounds like it would have been a fun game to watch.. I gotta get league pass. ………. The machine!

  • Zoom

    I don’t know why my 1st comment didn’t post but I stated that Rondo is better a better point guard than DRose. I think DRose is a excellent young player. He is certainly a better scorer than Rondo, and he’s more athletic. However, he is essentially a combo guard with pretty good pg skills. Rondo is just a pure pg. 1 assist DRose? C’mon man.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    the Bulls were shooting horrible. Boozer was on the bench. And Rose averages 8 assists, and has led the bulls to what 24 wins always without one of his best bigs? I think he is definitely a better player, Rondo has 4 HOF’s on his team, assists come easy

  • Zoom

    True, but none of those guys are in their prime. You can make the argument that Rondo is better than Ray Allen right now. Rose may average 8 dimes but then again so does John Wall, a rookie. I think DRose is a hell of a player but Rondo is more of a pure pg. DRose reminds me of a slightly bigger A.I. With better pg skills.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    You could argue that, but you can’t argue about who puts the ball in the hoop. If Ray ALlen, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett and Shaq weren’t see effective, Rondo’s stats would look like 10 and 8 a game. You wouldn’t be crazy enough to call someone putting up 10 and 8 better then a guy goin for 25 and 8 now would you? If your reasoning that Rondo is better is defense then maybe, but offensively its not even a contest, Rondo relies on others to get points, Rose can go either way

  • Zoom

    I can’t argue about scoring. DRose has that easily over Rondo, but is it your point guard’s job to be the teams primary scorer? I’d go so far as to say the Bulls other guys would score more if Rondo were their pg instead of DRose. I just think he’s that good at finding his man.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Rondo vs. Rose has been done to death on here, but cats always wanna try and revive it.

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    NOT A RONDO FAN AT ALL… BUT HE HAS TAKEN THE CHAMPIONSHIP FOR THE CRISPIEST LINING IN THE LEAGUE FROM JUWAN HOWARD AND DERON WILLIAMS

  • T-Money

    nbk: Lakers lost in 08 because Gasol and LO got punked, they weren’t ready then. Bynum got dragged out there on one leg because he’s still their third best big even at half speed. Now don’t get me wrong, Bynum can play but I always feel that we’re overrating the impact of a player who is NEVER on the court when the game is on the line.

  • Zoom

    It won’t end til the season ends if they both keep playing well. But feel free not to participate. It is a free country

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    You could also argue that the Lakers lost in 08 because Boston had so much size on them. Which Bynum would have been the cure for. And regardless of the reason, Bynum is and was essential to both of their championships. ANd if you can’t win a title without a guy, then his impact CANNOT be overstated

  • Jagster

    @nbk

    If Rondo played on another team he would average 16-22 pts and 10-12 assist.

    Why would he have to score a lot on the Celtics? Come on use your noggin. This is 5 on 5 NBA basketball not one on one in the park.

    I think Zoom had it right. Rose is AI, Steve Francis or Marbury, but with better passing skills (in AI and Francis’s case). He’s not a pure point guard, doesn’t get steals, is not a great defender or ball handler (he over dribbles) and doesn’t play the intangibles, floor game like Rondo. Rose could never play the all around offensive/defensive floor game Rondo did last night.

    Why’s that so hard to understand?

  • Jagster

    @Nbk

    Oh yeah. Zoom brought up a good point (which I’ve also been thinking all season).

    Stop making excuses for who Rose plays with, cause John Wall plays with a lesser class of players in Washington, and is obviously not even a polished point guard yet, but averages more assist than D.Rose. Instead of making excuses, Rose/Bulls fans should just admit that he’s not a true point guard (though a good one), forget about it, or wish that he gets better, which he has. But he may never have those intangibles, leader ship, defense and play making skills. But he has others.

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    Jagster- You are crazy if you think rondo would average 22pts. he cant score period. if you put him on any other team and system he wouldnt even come close to the assist # that he is putting up. and it has been more scoring pg than just ai,marbury, francis. What about Mark Price, Mitch Ritchmon, Tony Parker,Mike Bibby in his hey day. and all those score first point gaurds also did a real good job at running a team as the point gaurd

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Sure Rondo would average between 16 and 22, with his beautiful jumpshot and scoring touch. Eww, there is nothing hard to understand about their games. If you don’t think Rondo’s production is massively boosted by playing with the Celtics then you will never comprehend who is literally a better player. sorry – and I am not one to underrate anyone, especially Rondo. But what Rose is doing is the same thing Chris Paul did 3 years ago, except with 4 less assists and 6 more points. And everyone was talking about Chris Paul as not only the best PG in the NBA at the time, but as a likely top 10 PG of all time member. But since Rose does it by scoring more then passing people think he is overrated. Winning matters more then assists, and Rose is winning a comparable amount of games with a hugely inferior supporting cast

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    please stop using assists as the only way to measure a PG, its ridiculous

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    How the eff do peopl ehave Rondo averaging 16-22 points?
    Seriously, what the eff?
    He can’t shoot! He doesn’t finish great that rim, he doens’t have great one on one moves. Where the hell are all these points coming from? Knockdown scorers in the league struggle to put up 22 and now Rondo could do it?
    Eff it, Chris Paul and Deron Williams don’t just jump out there and average 22 like it’s nothing and they are WAY better than Rondo.
    Man, y’all smoking that good good.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    plus Rose is obviously the best offensive scoring option. YOu could theoretically make an argument for Boozer, but his production drops significantly when he is not on the court with Rose/Williams. Why wouldn’t you want your best offensive option taking the majority of your shots? once again, winning matters more then assists

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Man, the definition of a “true” point guard is skewed. Newsflash, but today’s standards, Oscar Robertson would probably not be a “true point guard.”
    Expand your thinking.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    and Mitch Richmond never played PG, ever

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    nbk- yes he did play pg homie.
    and allenp i preach the same thing to these rondo lovers, about his one on one move and him finishing around the rim. he misses about 3 layups a game. he is a system player who is flurishing in this sytem, just like turkaglu is a system player who flurishes in orlando’s system

  • Scott

    I can’t even begin to imagine how bad Chicago would be without Rose. I know it is a toss up between Nash, Paul, Rondo, Rose and Williams as who the best point guard in the league is but Rose is without a doubt the most valuable to his team.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Cawford

    Rondo would average 16-22 assists before he averaged that many ppg’s.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    really when? When he was playing with Tim Hardaway in Golden State, Anthony Johnson and Shreef Abdul Rauf in Sacramento, or Rod Strickland and Chris Whitney in Washington, which one?

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Cawford

    And is there a bigger waste of time besides LeBron vs Kobe than Rondo vs Rose?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Mitch Richmond played SG his whole career, averaged over 20 points, & less assists then rebounds. And never once started a game at the PG position.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    @ Zoom – You’re wrong in thinking the debate will end when the season ends. The debate has gone on since Rose’s rookie season.

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    nbk- you are right. i was thinking about Mookie Blaylock

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    yeah Bryan Crawford CP3 vs DWill

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    oh yeah Mookie sure did put up shots, he passed the ball too..I even think he averaged a double double in like 96. IMO shoot first v Pure PG is a matter of personel, neither is “better” as a construct of player. Effectiveness is all that matters.

  • Zoom

    I won’t deny that Rondo’s scoring can’t hold a candle to Rose’s but I honestly believe he’s a combo guard. No one questioned the fact that Rose is a winner. He just isn’t a pure pg guard. As far as which pg would help a team more, I’d say it depends on the needs of the team.

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    Scott, there is no way D Rose is more valuable to CHI than CP is to NOH. CP is more important to NOH than any player is to any other team, which is the reason he leads the L in win shares. They had a similar team last year without him, but they had a solid PG who is now a starter on a probable play-off team (Darren Collison, IND) & they were a lottery team. This year with a similar team, they are in the play-off race and are currently 6th in the crowded West.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Rose ain’t no combo guard. Scoring point guard, yes. Combo guard, no. Stick him in a lineup at SG and you’re dead wrong.

  • Zoom

    The Big O would certainly be considered a pg even today. Also DRose= Mike Vick of the NBA.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    AllBall – what the hell is a “win share”?
    You and your obscure stats, LOL.

  • JTaylor21

    I’m sorry but whoever said that Rose’s a better passer than AI is dead wrong. AI gets a bad rap for being a ball-hog but his numbers tell a different story. I remember him doing a great job of finding the open man and creating good looks for his teammates which is something Rose struggles to do from time to time. Dude used to drop 30-33ppg in his PHI days but still had the vision to avg. 7.5apg. Come on son, give me prime AI anyday over DRose.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Derrick Rose the Mike Vick of the NBA?
    WTF??

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    A win share is the amount of predicted Wins a player contributes to his team. Chris Paul leads the league in win shares and has the highest PER. And his team is worse without him then any other team without their best player in the league. By pure definition, Chris Paul is far and away the most valuable player in the league (now that LeBron is out of Cleveland)

  • T-Money

    Zoom: people confuse combo guards and scoring point guards all the time. What makes you think that Rose can be effective when playing off the ball? Steve Francis, Marbury, Gil, D-Rose… they are all scoring guards but not combo, they need the ball in their hands. True combos are guys like ‘Mal Crawford, Kirk Hinrich, Larry Hughes and D-Wade when he feels like it (which is not often, he hates bringing it up now).

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    All Ball
    A team that starts Peja instead of Ariza is not similar.
    Neither is a team that has an injured Tyson Chandler and a healthy Emeka Okafor.
    I do agree that Paul is more important to his team, but that does not mean he’s better. It means his team is constructed and plays in a way that increases his value.
    It’s not cut and dry like that. Some teams just do not play styles that take advantage of every player’s talents. Last year Jamison looked completely done, this year he’s sporadically dropping 30 and 15.
    Beasley couldn’t get his stroke together in Miami, not he’s being touted as a possible scoring champ by Doc Rivers.
    A team’s personnel and style greatly influence how valuable certain players are to that team.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Coming from an Iverson fan, Rose is a much better passer than Iverson. Iverson could never truly run an offense and make the correct passes within that offense. He was a beast and breaking down his man, and finding open players at the rim, or for jumpshots though. That doesn’t make him as good a passer as rose, who can run an offense, and get people those shots off his drives.
    And I said the Big O wouldn’t be considered a “pure point guard.” Have you noticed his scoring numbers and shot attempts? Apparently, if you score a lot and shoot a lot, you aren’t a pure point guard.
    Except, Bob Cousy is a pure point guard, and he shot ALL THE DAMN TIME. Pete Maravich is a pure point guard and he SHOT ALL THE DAMN TIME.
    People are crazy.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    whoa, J you said Iverson was as good a passer as Rose? I don’t want to jump to conclusions, is that really what you meant to say?

  • Zoom

    @ T-Money: I’ll concede that combo guard may be a little strong of a term for Rose. @Enigmatic He is Mike Vick in the sense that he isn’t really a conventional player at his position. Rose scores more than he finds his teammates. Vick will get you tds, but he isn’t as good at passing as he is at running the footbal.

  • T-Money

    Zoom: you should really start watching 2010-2011 Michael Vick.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Man, Derrick Rose is Tony Parker with better hops and court vision.
    And he ain’t NEW!
    Tiny Archibald
    Kevin Johnson
    Dennis Johnson
    Earl Monroe
    Isiah Thomas
    Gary Payton
    Sam Cassell
    Chauncey Billups
    All those cats and many more in league history were dangerous because of their scoring ability and looked to score as much as they looked to pass. They still got teammates involved, but scoring was a huge part of their games. I know taht people say “pure” to mean pass first, but they should just say “pass first.” There is no “pure” way to play the point. The correct way to play the point is the way that’s most effective for your skillset, mindset and team needs. That’s it.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Derrick Rose is Stephon Marbury with a better “off the dribble” game.
    The added 3 point shot makes them even more similar.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Rondo is more like Tony Parker.
    Just longer arms, and more of an athlete.
    Less of a shooter than Parker. Less of a scorer.

  • JTaylor21

    NBK, you damn right I said. AllenP, I disagree, just because AI was looking to score first and pass later doesn’t mean that he was a worse passer than DRose. AI was just a SG who could play PG which is why his main focus was to score first but whenever he played the point, he did a great job creating good looks for his temmates on a consistent basis. I can’t say the same for DRose, who’s still lacking in the court vision area.

  • Bruno

    Rondo is more like Tony Parker.
    Just longer arms, and more of an athlete.
    Less of a shooter than Parker. Less of a scorer …. in that case rondo is NOT like tony parker

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    @Zoom – ah, ok. I thought you meant Rose was out there, as Philosopher put it, “murkin mutts”.
    And yeah, I agree Derrick Rose is what Stephon Marbury WOULD’VE been had he not been so damn selfish.

  • Jagster

    You guys act like Rose is shooting 52%. They guy is shooting 45% and dropping. John wall averages 17 a game. But he’s shooting 41%.

    Averaging 16-22 pts a game is not difficult, when you got the green light, or are the number one option. So what? Rose hasn’t even been playing that well the past 3wks (Boozer or no Boozer). You guys are still jocking him from a month ago. Rose, shoots no better than Rondo does; though he is taking the three more. I’ll give him that.

    Obviously, you guys don’t watch Rondo play much, cause if you did, you’d know he can shoot, he just doesn’t shoot. He’s shooting 53% overall, 48% on 16-23 ft jumpers and 32%? on 3 pointers, which albeit he doesn’t take much. It’s a different mentality. The guys is super quick, has a better handle, decision making, can get to anywhere he wants on the court, is super long and has great hops. But he doesn’t haven’t highlight those things to be effective. It’s obvious, you guys don’t.

    And DRose is not in the likes of Isaih Thomas and some others, cause he’s not a natural passer. Just cause you can score, doesn’t exclude you from being a point guard. DRose is essentially a two guard in a point guards body, who passes when available. I agree with zoom.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    I agree with AllenP in that Rose is a better passer than Iverson was.
    But I also agree with JTaylor in that Rose’s court vision could be better.
    Dude is great at penetrating and dishing it out to the open man, or finding an open post player, but he doesn’t have that “see a play ahead” or “see an open man before he’s even open” ability that Kidd and Rondo and few others possess.

  • JTaylor21

    The Philo, there’s no way Rondo like TP, no freaking way. TP can’t even create half the shots Rondo creates for teammates and he’s probably has 1/5 the court vision Rondo possess. It pains me when people to say that the reason why Rondo’s putting up great assists numbers is because he has 4 HOF teammates. I mean didn’t DFish play with 4 HOF players at one point? He does a great job of finding those players at their favorite spot and getting them the rock as soon as they get open. Dude is probably the best passer in the L not named CP, LB, SN.

  • Jagster

    In other words (regardless of the stats), Rondo is more in the mode of Chris Paul and Steve Nash in his game/approach than Rose is.

    Rose is more like Russell Westbrook or Stephon Marbury. That’s the truth.

    Deron Williams happens to be a nice combination of all of them, minus the speed.

    So was Isaiah. He was just better!

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Lets just make this simple, Rose averages more assists, with a better assist % on a lower usage rate (then iversons highest assist % lowest usage rate season). Do you comprehend what that literally means?

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Meh.
    I guess you guys may be right.
    Even though they do have SOME similarities.

  • Jagster

    @ThePhilo

    It’s obvious that many of these folks don’t watch Rondo play, know basketball and just talking out of their Azz!!

    Rose could never play the game Rondo did yesterday. Never! Cause he doesn’t pass like that, doesn’t play that type of defense, doesn’t steal the ball like Rondo, play his floor game and doesn’t have big rebound games as often as Rondo. And Rondo hit his jumpers down the stretch, and he’s still recovering from his ankle injury, which slowed him down the past 10 games.

    What do these people want from him?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Jagster Rose is shooting the ball 45% actually shooting jumpshots. Rondo’s deepest jumper in a game is 16 feet, and its maybe twice a game. Lets also add in that nobody applies any pressure to Rondo at any point in a game. Idk if you have ever played basketball, or more importantly the PG position, but its 4000000000000000 times easier to find open teammates when noone is guarding you. Lets also remeber those 4 teammates have all averaged over 20PPG multiple times in their career and its plainly obvious why his assist numbers are so ridiculously high. He is a great passer, made even greater by the lack of pressure and plethora of talent around him. Rose is the focal point, both creating and scoring for his team. And all those things about Rondo being super quick and getting wherever he wants is doubly true for Rose, except he actually has someone applying pressure

  • Jagster

    I think Rose is a more willing passer than AI was. I also feel Rose is more coachable than AI was.

    But I also feel AI was a much better offensive player than Rose. Neither one are true point guards, and it has nothing to do with the fact that they both score.

    That’s my two cents.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Defense is a whole nother story, Rondo is heads and tails above Rose on defense

  • JTaylor21

    The real question is would you rather have a pass first PG in the mold of Stock and Rondo or a score first PG in the mold of DRose and Steph? I personally like a PG that looks to create for his teammates first and scores only when necessary than one who’s looking for his shot first and then tries to pass to his teammates if it’s not there. I mean it’s just me, others may see it differently. That is what made Zeke/Magic so great and why many regard DWill/CP as the best PGs today. Those guys could drop 30 on any given night but they made sure that their teammates got going first because it only made the game easier for them down the line.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jagster
    You are making some ludicrous comments right now.
    Anybody who thinks Rondo and Rose are in the same league as shooters is high. Like Rick James, Marion Barry high.
    And even with the greenlight, it’s not easy to average 20 points. If you watch Rondo’s game, he’s not built to be an elite scorer. That’s not his strength. Same was true of Stockton or JKidd. They didn’t have that type of game.
    I can’t argue with you about this if truly believe Rose and Rondo are equals as shooters. That’s just too much.
    JTaylor
    Man, I have watched Iverson obsessively trhoughout his career. Rose is a better passer. He just understands the totality of passing better. Doesn’t mean Rose is a great passer, it means he’s better than Iverson.
    Philo
    Rondo and Parker have very little in common.

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    jtaylor dfish plays in the triangle. how ofton does the pg have the ball in that system?? and im being serious. And you can really say that playing with 4 hall of famers and a system that allows the point gaurd to pound the ball until something comes open doesnt benift? you can miss me with that bs homie. when rondo ran the point with out the big 3 what was he doing. andf everybody on that team had the green light cuz they fu@king sucks.

  • JTaylor21

    Jagster just made my point for me. DRose is more of a willing passer than AI ever was while AI looked to score more. It doesn’t automatically mean that Rose’s the better passer. Both players aren’t the definiton of a true PG because they both look to score more than a PG should.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Who cares if Rose could play the game Rondo played?
    Is there some sort of prize for playing that game? Rondo is great.
    Rose is great.
    I’m not sold on who is better. They are both point guards who do what is needed for their teams.
    Seriously, have you seen Rondo shoot jumpers and free throws. Is a freaking crying shame! What is his excuse? How the hell can Rose go from no jumper to three point range in three three years, and Rondo can’t even get a mediocre jumper?
    Have you watched Rose from mid range, he’s damn near pure. His off the bounce jumper is bananas.
    Rondo gets to the rim on pick and rolls. Rose gets to the rim on pick and rolls and by breaking his man down. There is a difference.
    Tehre is no way the Lakers would ever, EVER consider hiding Kobe on Derrick Rose. EVER.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Isiah was not pass first.
    That doesn’t mean he wasn’t a great passer and couldn’t run a team, or that he didn’t get teammates shots.
    But he wasn’t pass first.
    Personally, it depends on the team in who I would want.
    If I have a bunch of scorers, I want a point who passes first but can stick and open jumper and play defense.
    If I have a dearth of scoring, I want a point who can get buckets.
    Simple.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    The best pg in the league is kyle lowry

  • JTaylor21

    HA, so let me get this straight. You’re telling me that Derek freaking Fisher could avg. 10apg let alone 13apg if he played in the same PG friendly offense Rondo plays in? Please tell me you’re joking. The reason why Rondo has the freedom he does is because he’s BOS best player and that’s what coaches do; they give their best player total control of the offense.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    If you ever see Rondo shoot during shootaround he is damn near pure as well but I also saw Ben Wallace shooting threes like his first name was Rasheed in shootaround.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    KG is Boston’s best player still.
    Rondo is really good, but what special freedom does he have?
    He makes passes. Hell, he often turns down shots he should take to make passes. He is pass first, and apparently being pass first even when it’s to the detriment of your team is still wonderful.
    Miss me with that.
    Rondo is a pale reflection of John Stockton. He ain’t even as good as prime Jason Kidd.
    And yes, I understand those two are all-time greats, but with the crazy d*ckriding and claims being made about Rondo, I figured that was the only comparison he had.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    that is not true. He is not the best player, and he does not have total control of the offense. He is allowed to pound the ball and wait patiently because there is literally NO pressure applied to him at all. Paul Pierce is there best offensive player (that should be obvious) and Kevin Garnett is there best defensive player. Rondo is the motor

  • JTaylor21

    Okay maybe Zeke wasn’t a pass first PG in the sense of a Stockon or Magic but he also wasn’t a shoot first PG. Contrary to popular believe, dude actually was a team first guy who ran the offense without a hitch and only took a shot when he saw an opening. I don’t know what to call him becuase he wasn’t a pass first nor was he a shoot first PG which is probably why I liked him so much because he played within the team structure yet he still dominanted.

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    u didnt say that. u said that “didnt dfish play with 4 hall of famer” so dont turn it around now . And when Dfish played with utah he averaged just over 7 assist without 4 hall of famers. so him averiging 10 assist with the players and the system that rondo plays in is not out of the question. And u mean to tell me Rondo is better than paul pierce? Or even KG. Did u watch the games that pierced played at the point while rondo was out. Get off Rondo’s sack, he is a Mediocre to good pg playing on a great team. Nothing more than that. He barley get gaurded.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    The team structure for was Isiah to score.
    He toned down some of his shooting when they got Dumars and others, but he was the point guard he was because he was always a threat to score at any time, and he constantly forced defenses to honor that.
    That’s good point guard play.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Kap
    did you really just mention shootaround?

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Rose plays within the team structure as well.
    The team structure is for Rose to score as well.

  • JTaylor21

    y’all are kidding right? Rondo is BOS best player hands down. They just beat the best team in the L without the so-called best player and it was based soley on Rondo’s stellar play. He’s the engine that stirs the drink. Bos might be able to beat avg. teams without Rondo but what happened when they played Orl without him? They couldn’t buy a bucket in the fourth qtr and lost, now if they had rondo, that wouldn’t have happened. Come on, just because he can’t score and shoot doesn’t mean he’s not their best player. JKidd proved that a bunch of times.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Allen:
    But they do have similarities.
    Especially an early career Tony Parker.
    Could not shoot if Jesus told him to.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    JTaylor – I’ve never used an engine to stir a drink before. Just sayin’.
    And I still think KG is their best player.

  • JTaylor21

    Also didn’t Bos take a finals bound Orl team to a gm7 without KG. I mean y’all are really underestimating the kind of impact Rondo has on the celtics and it’s a shame people underrate him based on him not being a good shooter. Is basketball all about scoring? What about passing, playing defense, and dominating without scoring. I guess it’s the era we are in, where the players who take the most shots are considered the best players, it’s ballhoggery at it’s purest form.

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    jtaylor i used to listen to some of the tings that u said but you losing me know yo. Rajon Rondo is not there best player AT ALL. He May be the engine as u called it but the engine doesnt work it it doesnt have other parts connected to it. And im tired of hearing about his defense he plays passing lanes. its not lock down defense.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    JTaylor, your giving Rondo the credit for everything the Celtics do without KG like Paul Pierce and Ray Allen don’t exist. Didn’t Rondo go down for a couple weeks, and Paul Pierce put together a string of double digit assist games? yes, proving that Rondo’s job is not nearly as hard as ya’ll tryna make it sound.

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    ALLEN P
    Ariza is definitely an upgrade over Peja, but when did Chandler play with Collison? A healthy Okafor was the C last year as he is this year, he is just having a lot better year due to CP3. This years starting SG is Marco B, for all the moaning I hear about CHI SG’S, Marco is as bad.
    His team is constructed in a way as to increase his value????? Don’t all coaches aim to do this? Put their players in the best position to succeed?
    Jamison is often the no1 option on nights he has big scoring numbers, last year he was playing off of Bron, so its totally different.
    Beas is the number 1 option offensively this year, last year it was all Dwyane. I see what you are saying, but CP3 is on a different level to these players. He would be an elite PG where ever he played. Rondo is in the best postition to increase his vaulue, with all those HOF’ers. You don’t think CP could put up even better numbers with those guys? As good as CP looks this year, which IMO is all him, not the system, how much better does he make his team mates?

  • http://Mrjones21901@aol.com Run’n'Gun219

    Rajon Rondo = Trent Dilfer of the nba lol

  • JTaylor21

    Enigmatic, that’s what happens when you watch Inside the NBA as much as I do.

  • Bruno

    KG is their leader and rondo their best player

  • JTaylor21

    NBK and RunNGun, I’m not saying that Rondo’s the only reason for the celtics success but if you think that Bos can win the whole thing with Nate Robison or PP at PG, you’re fooling yourself. I’m not even a big fan of dude and I think that there are better PGs out there but I can’t just sit back and watch people downplaying his achievements and skills based on him not being a good shooter.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    JTaylor – Ha, my bust. I had no idea you were quoting Barkley.
    I really don’t watch that cause I really don’t like dude. Lots of people do, I know, but not me.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    never said that. never downplayed anything he has done. he just isn’t the best player on the Celtics and he isn’t better then Derrick Rose on offense. Other then that, he is absolutely great.

  • JTaylor21

    When you say he isn’t better than Rose on offense, do you mean just scoring because the last time I checked offense isn’t all about scoring. You can dominate on offense without taking a single shot. Also he’s a better PG than Rose.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I mean offense, when your team has the ball. If the celtics have the ball and it isn’t in Rondo’s hands he is 100% useless. Rose is better. Even when the ball is in Rondo’s hands he is no threat to score. Rose is better. Rondo finds teammates who are traditionally scorers wide open and in places to score, well so did Paul Pierce when he took over the playmaking duties without Rondo. The bulls without Rose? HAH – Rose is better.

  • Michael

    Jagster your an idiot if you think Rondo can shoot anywhere near as good as Rose. hand ur slam pass in never to be reurned after that gem of wisdom.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    oh and please don’t start listing all the things Rondo does for the pace of the game for the Celtics. Rose does all those exact same things for chicago, there is no seperation. And to all the overreactors who read my comments and jump to these wild conlclusions I am in no way saying Paul Pierce is anywhere close to as good as Rondo as a PG, just that Rondo’s assist numbers and shot “creating” (even though Doc Rivers should get the bulk of the credit) abilities are vastly overrated, and it can be attributed to his oober talented teammates as much as his amazing court vision and playmaking ability. His offense is soo putrid outside of passing that he was exiled from team USA, that should say something

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    KG is not valued for scoring. Hell, dude barely scores anymore. He’s valued because of what he brings to the table as a scorer, passer, defender and leader.
    Have you watched Kevin Garnett?
    I don’t care how far Boston went without KG, look at how much better they were when he came back even dragging his leg. Did you see how much better that team was with him? Plus, making it to the semis does not mean the player missing wasn’t valuable. Phoenix made it to the WCF without Amare, but anybody who watched the playoffs that year knows they beat a weak Lakers team and weak Clippers team to get there. And barely beat them. The same is true for the Celtics without Garnett. They beat the freaking Bulls, whose best player was a rookie point guard, and whose second best player was a chucking undersized two guard! Come on. Rondo was huge in that series, but without KG that Boston team got taken to seven by a team the would have otherwise swept. Do you remember the drop off in team record when KG went down that year?
    Man, KG is the LEADER on that team. That’s why he’s the best player, besides the skills he brings to the table. He makes everybody else better, not Rondo, despite what Rondo’s guady assist totals say.
    AllBall
    I’m saying that success in the NBA has a lot to do with system and personnel. Paul would be outstanding for Boston, hell, they could crush the league for another four years if he replaced Rondo. Same thing with Dwil.
    But, that doesn’t mean that Paul’s current team, and system, aren’t set up to make him most comfortable and play his best. I’m not saying that’s wrong, I’m just saying it’s reality. It’s the same argument I’ve always had about Nash. Dude is great. He would be very good no matter who he played for, but he would not be as great or put up as gaudy numbers if he played for most other teams. CP3 might be as great, but his gaudy PER and win shares would change in a different system.

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    Rondo is actually good at cutting off the ball for lay-ups. Rose needs the ball in his hands to be effective.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Especially considering team USA has a defense first, create turnovers focus, and Rondo is (if not the best) one of the best defensive guards in the NBA, and surely top 2 on that roster.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    AllBall
    How much better is Okafor this year compared to what he did in Charlotte? He’s averaging 10 and 10, with a few big games sprinkled here and there. I’m not saying he’s not benefiting, but he’s the exact same player.
    How much better is Ariza?
    Bellinelli’s improvement is largely due to increased playing time, right?
    Who is playing so much better than they have in other places?
    What happened to Marcus Thornton?
    I give the HOrnets credit for winning, but which player has had a career transformation in New Orleans? Point him out.

  • Michael

    I remember a BOS game not sure who vs but last few seconds BOS with the ball with a chance to win or tie at the buzzer. Ball was in Rondo’s hands and the defense just sagged right off him pretty much didnt guard him. I mean they were begging him to take the shot, he did after dribbling for a while and bricked it but my point is with the game on the line they gave him a wide open jumper and he had the ball for atleast a couple of seconds looking for a pass before he shot it. That shows how much respect Rondos jumpshot gets.

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    I agree, about systems/personell. I also agree that if CP was in BOS they would be champs for aslong as that core is there. I disagree completely that CP would not be as good for other teams. His win shares might be lower, but his overall numbers would be way up. NOH play one of the slowest paces in the L, CP is phenomenal playing this way, but he would also be phenomenal running the break for another team, or running another teams half court offense. CP is no Steve Nash, he has put up great numbers since his rookie year, Nash numbers went up dramatically once he went to PHO. Do you really think he wouldn’t be an ALL NBA/ALL Star/Best PG in the L type in another system?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    AllBall – did you really just use cutting as a strength? cutting is part of the offense, you cut when your supposed to and when the spacing is right. Rondo and Rose “cutting” does not add any weight to who is better. And Rondo gets more “cutting” “slashing” opportunities because nobody guards him. Its a product of his weakness

  • Michael

    if u switched rondo and rose would we even be having this conversation?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    nope

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    AllBall
    He’s good at cutting.
    The layups part, not so much. Most likely he cuts, catches the ball in scoring position, then passes.

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    Statistically Okafor may not be better, but he is having a resurgence this year. Ariza is not playing great statistically, but he is playing good basketball. Look at the way they play, the numbers aren’t going to jump out at you. They play a very slow pace, holding teams to barely 90PPG. Even with this slow pace CP still puts up amazing numbers. Bellenelli is having a career year due to minutes yes, but he isn’t great anyone, and CP3 is making him serviceable.
    Monty Williams won’t play Marcus for defensive reasons (which makes no sense to me, Marco isn’t exactly a stopper), but let me guess thats CP’s fault as well???
    Tyson Chandlers best years by far were with CP3, back when they played at a faster pace. What exactly do you have against CP? He’s putting up great stats in a system that isn’t stat friendly, and he’s enabling his squad of underwhelming talent to play good basketball and put up solid numbers in a system that isn’t stat friendly. They may also have the best record to talent ratio in the L. If you watch him regularly how can you not think he would be elite on any team?

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    Not as a strength, but you stated he is 100% ineffective without the ball, I disagree with that. Very early in this comment section I stated that BOS were successful without him, and that he is no MVP. I also stated that I can’t choose between Rose/Rondo.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    AllBall
    You think that with better teammates, he would put up a better stat line than 22 and 12, which is pretty much what he put up in Kobe’s MVP year?
    Let me be clear. I think Chris Paul would be OUTSTANDING playing for anybody in any style.
    I don’t think his fans would be able to pull all these advanced stats showing how “valuable” he is if he played in a different system with different players. I think his numbers are a byproduct of his greatness AND the system his team plays.
    For example, does Paul put up these numbers for Utah? What does Deron put up if he’s playing for New Orleans doing what Paul does?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    i just like how when people have these amazing games against good teams a plethora of commenters always come in the next day proclaiming them the best at their position. This happened with Westbrook this season, with Rose and all this MVP best PG in the L hoopla bs, with Chris Paul after that 11-0 start, Deron Williams after his string of 30 and 10′s, even Raymond Felton has got a grip of unwarranted ball licking this season. I mean those guys are obviously a collection of the best in the league, I just think its funny that it just takes a couple games for people to go all nuts about a player. when in reality some of those same people will contradict themselves later on in the season when one of the others has a great stretch of games.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    What I’m saying is that whenever I talk about Paul to a Paul fan, they point to his statistical dominance as proof of his greatness.
    Nash fans point to his statistical dominance, and his MVPs.
    To me, stats are important. But when stats are obvious skewed by your role, or teammates or system, then you have to know how to weigh them.
    Paul’s stats have quite a bit to do with how he’s used by this team. I’m not saying that’s stupid for the team, I’m just saying it’s a fact.
    Given his mindset, particularly post injury, I don’t know what he would do if was asked to be more of a scorer consistently, if he could handle it physically right now. But, it usually takes a year for a player to get healed from a knee injury, so it will be easier to judge where he is as a player next year when he’s fully healed barring a setback.
    I’m not denigrating him, or downplaying his importance to that team. I’m saying that he’s important because the team is designed for him to be that important. That’s why Collison could step in and put up the numbers he put up as a rookie, but struggle so much to duplicate that success for Indiana.
    Why don’t people see this?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    well 100% ineffective I mean not a threat, if he scores at the basket off of a cut it is not because he is a good offensive player, it is because whoever is supposed to be watching the basket didn’t do their job. Rose on the other hand must always have a player guarding him, meaning when he doesn’t have the ball its still 4 on 4, instead of 4 on 5. (lets just try and remember that the defense is always supposed to be guarding the basket, 100% of the time here is supposed to be basket help, on every single team in the NBA.)

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    I think in a fast paced offense, with the team mates they have now he could put up those numbers.
    Oh, ok from your previous comment I thought you saw Chris Paul as a byproduct of the system similar to Steve Nash, I feel they are totaly different situations. I agree, if he played on a better team win shares would go down.
    If CP3 was in UTA I feel the team would be a lot better, and his assist numbers would go up. Deron has more people to pass to, Raja is lighting it up from 3, CJ is shooting it well, then there is Al inside.
    Deron in NOH would not be as good as CP, may score more but he would be less efficient, take more shots, and win less games, but thats just me.

  • JTaylor21

    So you’re telling me that Rondo doesn’t make his teammates better? Come on son, you’re better than that. How many times last night did Rondo create great looks for Big Baby, JO, and Shaq? He even does a great job of perfectly hitting Ray off the curl and even when the curl is defended well, rondo can adjust and look for his second option without missing a beat. I put it like this, Rondo is like Tom Brady when he had Moss and he passed for 50+ TDs. Brady is still putting up great numbers without him and I think that Rondo will do the same after the Big 3 retire. Dude’s got too much skills for people to say that his numbers are due to playing with 4 HOFs.

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    Paul has statistical dominance, as well as consistent play-off appearances when healthy. If he was asked to score more I feel he could, when he gets aggressive he scores in bunches.
    Regarding Collison, he had good numbers but the team lost a lot of games, and ended up in the lottery. When Rondo was out PP put up good assist numbers and the team kept winning. See the difference? Also, when Collison and Thornton were playing together last year Bower was pushing pace constantly, inflating both of their numbers. Why does know on see this?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Taylor are you talking to me? because I have more then once said I think Rondo is great, just not as great as ya’ll actin like he is. And please don’t use a football analogy you obviously are not equipped to use. Tom Brady was putting up amazing numbers before he got Moss, I’m not getting into that, but just no

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Rondo is the most overrrated player on the planet

  • JTaylor21

    AllenP, what do you mean by does CP put up those kind of numbers in Utah? You’re acting like DWill just hands the ball off and goes to spot up in the corner. Despite Utah’s flex offense, DWill still has freedom to basically go away from the offense and create a play when he sees an opening. Just imagine the kind of assists numbers CP would put up if he had Millsap and Big Al inside to finish plays instead of Okafor and a jump-shooting DWest. DWill would probably put up better scoring numbers if he played for the hornets but CP would put up better assists numbers than he puts up now if he played for the Jazz.

  • JTaylor21

    Nbk, you know what? I’m tired of people not reading the entire post instead they choose to single out a small sample and then run with it. I give up, take the Tom Brady analogy any way you want.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Lol that’s obviously what you do especiay if you do t kno how Allen feels about deron williamss

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    So you think CP puts up 22 and 12 with 50 percent shooting, five rebounds and two steals playing in Jerry Sloan’s offense?
    I just want to be clear that everybody agrees to this because I disagree.
    I don’t see Paul getting those kind of point totals. I see him putting up numbers more like Stockton in that offense. But it’s pure speculation.
    And I see Deron getting 40 and 15 on occasion if he played for the Hornets. Well, at least the same 30 and 10 he drops these days.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    And I read every word of every comment I respond too. I may misunderstand every once in a while but I dont do that

  • Michael

    I understand what your saying about Rondo Jtaylor he a terrific passer and a terrific point guard but there is no way ill ever believe he would be putting up the same or similar numbers if he was on the bulls. I mean if you cant see how playing with all those HOFs has inflated his numbers then there is no point in us talking about it. Rondo has never ever been guarded anywhere near as closely as point guards like Chris Paul, Dwill,Nash or even Rose.

  • http://sjfklfsl.com Jukai

    Man, I miss all the great debates….
    Look, let’s play it like this:
    Rose is a better player if you plug both Rose and Rondo into ‘generic system 101′
    Rondo is a better player if you look at what Rondo is doing for the Celtics compared to what Rose is doing for the Bulls. I’m not convinced Rose could do what Rondo is doing because of Rondo’s superior passing and defense (although Rondo CERTAINLY could not do what Rose is doing).
    So, one could say Rose is BETTER and Rondo is MORE VALUABLE. Is that unfair? Anyone disagree?

  • http://sjfklfsl.com Jukai

    And Deron Williams has the ball as much as Chris Paul does. It’s silly to say that Deron Williams runs a more structured offense and the ball is out of his hands more. Williams may not have the CREATIVITY AND FREEDOM that Chris Paul has, but he has the same amount of decision making and ball-control. Plus he has Sloan telling him the best way to play.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Rondo is so overrated he puts up up good stats and has a good impact but everybody wanna try and make him elite when he clearly isnt, the dude is playing with such great talent that knows what to do, but yet when tony parker was killing with the spurs and actually won a finals mvp with great talent people just looked at it like it was ho-hum.

  • http://sjfklfsl.com Jukai

    Allen, here is a counter-point: You talk about Deron being put in a more ‘part of a machine’ role, and Paul/Nash being placed in a more ‘the entire f*cking machine’ role, so you say that stats showing their value are skewed…. and you’re CORRECT in that assumption.
    But isn’t it more impressive that Paul/Nash can run that entire machine while Deron is simply a part that moves it? And how are you so sure that Deron COULD run a team entirely?

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    CP could put up 18-20 & 12-14 with 4-5 boards and 2-3 steals in the Jazz offense with the players currently on the Jazz roster. He doesn’t actually average 30-10, and he may get 40 one night 15 the other, but not together on a given night.
    Honestly, if you watch them both regularly I don’t see how you can put D Will above CP.
    Also, I co-sign a lot of what Jukai said.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Deron Williams has been a winner his whole career. From college to day one in the NBA. Stats are second after winning. And Paul clearly if u watch both noh & ut has the ball more then Deron Williams.

  • JTaylor21

    Jukai, when you say Rose’s better do you mean; a better player or a better PG? @AllenP, that’s why I said he would avg. more assists ala Stockon and never said anything about his PPG, APG, SPG going up or staying the same.

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    CP may have the ball more than anyone else in the L. There are reasons for that though. He’s more productive when he has the ball than most, statistically more productive this season than everyone. Also, his whole career he has had inferior team mates.

  • http://sjfklfsl.com Jukai

    NBK: I disagree. The only time Deron doesn’t have the ball is if he gives it off to a big. I rarely see anyone else on the team handling it nowadays.
    JTaylor: A better player. I think it’s hard to define who is a better point guard until I hear your definition of what a point guard is.

  • JTaylor21

    Jukai, my definition of a PG is someone that truly understands the team’s offense/game plan, is like a coach on the floor, gets the ball to the right player at the right time, one that can create good looks for his teammates even when they are defended well and one that can score when the offense breaks down. I rank a PG’s abiltiy to score last because I think the only time he should be looking to score is when his teammates are struggling and the team needs a bucket.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    AllBall
    I’ll never argue with you abotu who is better between Deron and Paul. There is no way for us to come to an agreement on that topic, or for me to sway you.
    The only reason I constantly engage you on this topic is because I tend to bristle when Paul fans talk about Williams and proclaim that Paul’s mastery over him is foregone conclusion.
    They love to use stats and complain about Paul’s horrible teammates, yet they ignore the relationship between the two. Paul has many of the stats he has because of the teammates he has the system he plays in.
    He’s great. For two years I grudgingly admitted he was better than Williams. Now, when it’s blatantly obvious to the naked eye that he’s not, I thought that Paul fans would return the favor. Clearly I was mistaken, and I must admit that irks me.
    It’s not biggie though. I respect you and your opinion, and how you present that opinion.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Jukai they run offensive sets on almost every possession where atleast 3 players touch the ball in the offense without filtering every pass through Deron. Chris Paul is involved in just about every single pass NoH makes. From the inbounds, to the entry pass, to the pick and roll/pop. Deron gets opportunities not having the ball that chris doesn’t though it’s a two way street. Williams gets pindowns on smaller guards from moving without the ball, he gets those handoff screens from milsap and Jefferson that come from kirelinko or bell makin the entry pass. The only time in the offense Paul is not involved directly is when the ball is swung to the weakside because the defense is out of position. Why do you think Chris Paul rarely sees spot up jumpshots while Williams gets about 3 or more a game.

  • Jagster

    You guys are ridiculous. You still talking about this? I just think many of you guys don’t watch ball and are just Rose fan boys and Rondo critics. Neither Rose or Rondo are considered good shooters. Rose’s three point average has actually been going down the past three weeks, after shooting in the thirties for most of the year. His three shot is streaky. Let’s not try to make him Ray Allen. But I’ll give him credit for that (taking it), though I think he can be shot happy. Rose is also a sloppy ball handler, not a floor general, a bad one on one and pick and roll defender, doesn’t steal the ball and is not a natural passer, though a willing one. Anyone who watched that game last night, and would come on this board and hate on Rondo (vs anybody) are obviously, blind, idiotic or insanely delusional. The kid was absolutely spectacular. There very few players on earth who could of played that game last night (Chris Paul; and maybe Deron)? And he’s only going to get better as his ankle heals (since his hamstring should of with his time off). I’m sure he’ll put even greater numbers in the near future and they play each other this Saturday. So let’s be done with this silly argument. Just watch the game on Saturday.

  • Michael

    shut up Jagster.

  • CoolBreeze

    @Michael, NBK etc.

    Yeah. Rose would struggle in Boston’s system. Kinda like how he did in for team USA. What he was asked to do in Coach K’s sysem (run the team and play defense), he wasn’t comfortable in and it affected his shooting to boot. Remember he shot poorly. I think the same type of thing would happen to Derrick Rose on Boston. He wouldn’t have the green light to shoot like he does in Chicago. That’s not the point guards role. On the Contrary, I think Noah, Boozer, Deng, Korver, Thibideau, etc. would welcome Rondo with open arms in Chicago. I think you guys got it the opposite! Doesn’t surprise me though.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Well, I might as well.
    LONG… LIVE… THE KING.

  • http://sjfklfsl.com Jukai

    @JTaylor21: Alright, well, then yes, Rondo is a better point guard than Rose. But that also means Stockton and Kidd were better points than Robertson and Isiah and on par with Magic.
    @Nbk: I don’t really watch a load of either the Hornets or Jazz so I’ll have to defer to you on this one. The games I’ve watched, Deron has the ball 90% of the time, and Paul 95%. The times that Deron didn’t, seemed when he was feeding his big men. But I didn’t pay close enough attention to make any type of definitive statement.
    @CoolBreeze: I think Rose would do just as bad in a not-score-at-all environment of Boston as Rondo would do in a score-or-lose environment like Chicago. I mean, in fairness, they are both in situations which suit their skillsets.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Who said marion can’t score without Steve nash? He is doing all right.tonight.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Cool breeze
    if all team usa needed aS someone to run the team and play defense why was rondo sent home? I can’t believe you used team usa, the team where rondo went in the favorite and a starter and lost his spot as proof that rondo is better at running a team than rose.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Well Jukai your right in that sense. The majority the vast majority of the possessions go through both.
    The Jazz offense just has a few extra rinkles that allow deron to do away from the ball activities

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Personally, I feel like a PG needs to be able to shoot the ball because it’s forces the defense to have to be honest.
    Rondo is great in Doc’s system, and it’s not his fault that he gets to run with HOF’ers every night. But how good would he be if he were in Toronto? Or Charlotte?
    Would he still have those 20+ assist games? Would those teams and the personnel that they have now be championship caliber with him running the show?
    No and no.
    He’s a system guy. But take him out of that system and he doesn’t look as good.

  • Michael

    lol@coolbreeze, Allenp wins.

  • http://sjfklfsl.com Jukai

    WOW Allen, I hope that was a sarcastic comment…

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Jukai if your implying that you believe Rondo went home from team USA with a hamstring or whatever you aren’t paying very close attention.

  • http://sjfklfsl.com Jukai

    NBK: I meant about his Nash/Marion comment. I know he said it just to irk me, he knows what he’s doin’!

  • http://sjfklfsl.com Jukai

    Rondo sucks where he isn’t the primary decision maker and hence couldn’t’ cut it on the Team-First USA team. It shouldn’t dull down his contributes in the system he’s playing in.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Of course I know this was an anomaly.for marion. Come on give me some credit … but marion was killing.

  • http://sjfklfsl.com Jukai

    Allen: He’s one of the few players I’ve ever liked even though he’s an ex-Sun. I guess it was all his whiny and his scary face that reminds me of an alien.
    But yeah, if he gets into a rhythm, Marion is still as dangerous as he used to be.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Ok wew my fault juks

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    And cosign BC

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick ric

    Rondo aight man, he gets too much credit, that dude defense is way overated he just plays the passing lane well plus he has superior frontcourt help in k.g whenever his man blows by him. he cant shoot worth a lick if he was on any other team he would be exposed but he plays on a team with four guys who all have scored more than 20,000 points in their careers and great spacing so you have to honor guys like ray and pierce and even garnetts shooting. people talking bout he the key to the celtcis, please. No k.g.: no finals for the celtics but the celtics without rondo still have a shot, they won in spite of him in 2008.

  • http://sjfklfsl.com Jukai

    Rondo does way more than play the passing lanes. That over-exaggeration has to stop. He’s a great defender, it’s the people that compare him to Gary Payton who are overdoing it… but he’s one of the best defensive points in the L today. Who is better? Russell maybe, Kirk maybe, Delonte West when he’s not going crazy. Deron Williams is certainly not.
    Yes, put Rondo on another team and he may not do as well. That should NOT take away from the fact that Rondo is running this team to perfection. Rondo, powered by the Boston Celtics system, is playing his mind out. Give him credit.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    why do people still try to change others minds about the same old debates? everyone here had the same views 2 weeks ago, and will again next month.

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    Allenp
    Yeah, neither of us are going to change our opinions, but I still like debating it. I respect your opinion. I just don’t think its clear he’s better now. As a casual fan (which I know you are not), then I could see how you say D Will is better, as someone who watches games every night, I guess that I must like CP’s play style, whereas you must like D Wills.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Tarzan Cooper’s comment @3:18 am is useful.

  • CoolBreeze

    Wow!

    Can’t believe you guys still talking about this, when these two play on the weekend? SMH.

    Just watch the game.

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