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Friday, October 14th, 2011 at 9:00 am  |  171 responses

Dennis Rodman Wants NBA Players to ‘Bow Down’ to Owners


by Marcel Mutoni@marcel_mutoni

Dennis Rodman was around during the last NBA lockout in 1999, and as far as he’s concerned, the owners accepted defeat at the time, and gave the players “everything” they wanted.

The Worm’s advice to today’s locked out NBA players is to “bow down” to team owners in the latest labor fight. Rodman recognizes that it’s the owners’ fault for foolishly signing certain players to the deals that they do, but the players should agree to play ball a little bit here.

His reasoning? Most NBA players haven’t done anything to earn the money.

Rodman made his comments at a racehorsing event in Canada, and the Toronto Sun has the quotes:

As is his custom, the flamboyant Rodman didn’t leave quietly suggesting to reporters, when asked about the current NBA lockout, that NBA players should just take whatever the owners offer and get back to work. “I just think that … the players should bow down,” Rodman said. “They should bow down. In 1999 we (were locked out) and we missed half the season. The owners bowed down then. They gave the players everything. I think the players should do the same thing for the owners because today most of these teams are losing money. It’s not the players’ fault. It’s the owners’ fault. I think they should give a little bit and move on.”

Rodman insists he’s not taking the owners’ side in all of this but it’s apparent he doesn’t believe today’s NBA player deserves the kind of money he is getting. “I don’t think they work that hard because most of the players don’t give a damn about the game. They want the money. I’m not taking the owners’ side, I just think the players should look at themselves. ‘OK, I’m making $16-million or $17-million a year but what have I accomplished?’ Most of the players haven’t accomplished anything. That’s what you have to look at.”

I’d argue that most reasonable NBA fans realize that the League’s owners are trying to give players a raw deal in this labor fight — regardless of who may or may not “deserve” the money they’re currently getting paid.

Ideally, neither side would have to bow down in order to get a deal done. But there’s nothing ideal about the current labor situation in the NBA.

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  • http://adventoutpost.com Sylvanus

    Rodman is absolutely right. If you think about the wealthiest players in the league — salary wise, Kobe is up there with his $30 mil a year, but he has the rings. I believe Garnett is up there also, but his body of work and his leadership warrants a huge contract. Compare that to Arenas, Johnson and other players who received $100 million deals for ONE good year is the issue. LeBron makes a boat load of $ including the endorsements and consistently chokes under pressure. Rodman has a valid point.

  • yo

    Sylvanus, you do not understand what it is all about.

    The union fights for money for the non-stars and bench players. Without a union there would be no CBA, no salary-cap, no quaranteed contracts – nothing, but superstars like LeBron would earn $40 mil per year.

  • http://slamonline.com YKnoT

    So Rodman benefitted from the last contract but todays players should give in because the last labor lockout ended in the players favor? That makes no sense at all! @ Sylvanus Barkley, Ewing and a bunch of other players made boatloads of money and don’t have rings to show for it, does that diminish their careers as well?

  • http://adventoutpost.com Sylvanus

    Its about the owners wanting to recoup money they’ve lost over the years. Huge contracts given to subpar players that are greater than what subpar players in other professional sports. It is the owners fault for giving the contracts, now they want to save their ass if they give out big contracts to players unworthy of them

  • Red Star

    So true! The league is full of over paid Divas now! Performance clauses in contracts may help alleviate the problem but I’m not an owner!

  • Morgan

    As crazy as Rodman is its hard not to agree with him. Players average millions to play a game they love. At this point, when games are being lost, its all about money for both sides. They’ve managed to fight the owners down to a slightly better deal than what was put on the table 3 months ago – cant they just sacrifice a little money for the love of the game?!

  • http://adventoutpost.com Sylvanus

    Thank You people with knowledge of the game! Its about $$. Most NBA players go flat broke after 3 years. Wasted $. Owners know that in order to recoup $ lost, they have to low the mid level cap for players who’ve been in the league for 5 years. Drew Gooden received a contract worth 60 million. He was a bust coming out of Kansas. Owners made the poor decision with the signing of contracts, but they realized it hurts the team. Pay your essential employees more than they are worth, and your business crumbles.

  • Justin

    Sylvanus, you’re comparing Arenas and Johnson to two Hall of Famers?

  • bull22

    A HUGE ROUND OF APPLAUSE FOR A 5 RING-MASTER!! i have been saying all along that both the owners and players are at fault. MAKE a DEAL and get back to playing BALL……

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    Is anyone surprised this came out of Rodman’s mouth?

  • T-Money

    i really don’t get why former players are just throwing current players under the bus. are they just jealous at the money players are making now? we know dennis has money issues…

  • http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/10/13/2011-10-13_excop_we_fabricated_drug_raps_for_quotas.html Allenp

    So, we’re going to pretend like Rodman is a lucid person now?
    Cool, good to know.

  • robb

    “most of the players don’t give a damn about the game. They want the money.” That’s right. The worst part? the owners are actually giving it to players like Rashard Lewis, so the owners are to blame, they should accept it and be more flexible. Players will always look for the most lucrative contracts they can get. Can you blame them? nobody’s gonna say: “oh please no, don’t give me that much money, I don’t deserve it” C’mon! if they look for it and they get it whose fault it is? But now the owners want the rest of the players to pay for it? they’re nuts. I don’t think players should bow down like Rodman suggests.

  • Justin

    To suggest that the players aren’t as much or at least partly to blame is a$$inine. T-Money, if he’s asked a question is he not allowed to give an honest as he sees it answer? Personally, I think he’s right.

  • http://offthebackboard.wordpress.com/ Off The Backboard

    He didn’t say anything earth shattering, especially regarding the players. I remember reading a passage from Ballard’s “The Art of a Beautiful Game” in which an executive from a Western team commented that there are only about 5-10 guys in the league that TRULY love the game. He pointed out guys like Deron, Chris Paul, Kobe, etc, juxtaposing them with the Allen Iverson-types who love the game….but only when the lights are on. And that is the problem with most of the players. Everyone is chasing big contracts, and I don’t blame them, but how many of these players truly deserve such bloated contracts?

  • http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/10/13/2011-10-13_excop_we_fabricated_drug_raps_for_quotas.html Allenp

    It’s Dennis Rodman!
    This is crazy.

  • Fat Lever

    Westside Connection approves of this message.

  • http://offthebackboard.wordpress.com/ Off The Backboard

    Also, someone mentioned guys like Barkley, Ewing, etc, saying they didn’t have rings so they didn’t deserve large contracts either. Barkley and Ewing, though ring less, were legit franchise players who were the heart and soul of their teams and carried them to new heights consistently, for the most part. Compare that to guys like Joe Johnson and Rashard Lewis and you’ll understand why Rodman feels the way he does.

  • bike

    The Worm is right on. The number of inflated contracts has hit a level that damages those players that are worth what they are being paid. The player’s amateurish attempts to present an image of unity are simply pathetic. If the season gets canceled, everyone loses, but the players will lose more. The longer this drags on the more foolish the players look. Blame the owners all you want, but, guess what? Life is not always fair. Take the deal and move on.

  • http://offthebackboard.wordpress.com/ Off The Backboard

    AllenP – A lot of former players share the exact same sentiment as Rodman regarding today’s players, so I’m sure he’s not the only one who feels that way. As far as “bow down”, however, I’m not so sure.

  • CubicleWorker

    The owners are in it for the money, the players are supposed to be in it for the love of the game, they deserve to get paid millions for being the best at their craft but at some point they’re going to have to realize that they’re basketball players, owners are businessmen. Both have to succeed at their own craft and there’s no reason that both sides shouldn’t be able to make millions. End of story.

  • Ali

    MONEY, POWER AND GREED! Owners worth hundreds of millions/billions and bench warmers/scrubs/roll players/super star players signing contracts anywhere from 10-100 mil to play professional basketball, the shi* has gotten waaay out of hand. F*** it! Scrap the entire season……….. Who wants a (*) next to their championship like San Antonio’s….
    Reminds me of U.S. PoliTRICKS…nobody can agree to do what’s right to benefit the most important thing involved in the situation. In politics (The People), and In the NBA (The Fans)… Enjoy ya weekend everybody!

  • robb

    underachieving players being overpaid is not the issue, the issue is owners giving them money they don’t deserve! which part is unclear to you?? If those players love the game or not is not the problem, the owners are businessmen making bad business decisions, and they want the rest of the players to pay for that!? f*ck them!

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    a) rodman is clearly insane… b) the players should not “take less” because the owners are idiots with their money. so no off the backboard… rodman is wrong, and probably jealous

  • http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/10/13/2011-10-13_excop_we_fabricated_drug_raps_for_quotas.html Allenp

    Wait.
    The owners get to be in it for the money, but the players are supposed to be in it for the love of the game?
    That’s crazy talk.
    Players love playing ball, most of them. They also love getting paid. Considering the amount of work and sacrifice it takes to be an NBA player, why would you want to be rewarded for that effort?
    Everybody likes being rewarded for their effort. People who love their careers and jobs want to be paid well to do what they love.
    Stephen King doesn’t get shortchanged when it’s time to write a novel. Brad Pitt doesn’t get short changed when it’s time to make a movie. Jay-Z gets paid when he makes an album. They all clearly love their crafts…
    Each individual player is a separate business on to himself. More importantly, you can’t throw the word “professional” around when discussing players on one hand, and then tell them they should put that aside when it comes to getting the best possible financial deal.
    This is highly illogical.

  • http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/10/13/2011-10-13_excop_we_fabricated_drug_raps_for_quotas.html Allenp

    And Rodman’s comments make no sense.
    One, when the players signed the last deal in 1999 the consensus at the time was that they got shafted. Period.
    Revisionist history, in the form of the owners claims that they are losing money despite receiving a total of more than $2 billion and never producing detailed balance sheets, is what has driven this new version of history. But Ewing was derided at the time, Hunter was derided at the time. The players surrendered a system where there were no maximum contracts, wide open free agency and no luxury tax for the system that was in place last season. They basically got a deal that removed them from the MLB level of deals.
    David Stern has won the war for information. Without producing facts he’s been allowed to dictate reality, and when the actual numbers raise serious questions about that reality, those numbers have been ignored.
    It’s shocking that people don’t see this. It clearly proves how propaganda is created and utilized.

  • http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/10/13/2011-10-13_excop_we_fabricated_drug_raps_for_quotas.html Allenp

    Excuse the typos.

  • treetrunks

    Why should NBA players LOVE the game? that’s just silly..it’s all about the money..if they LOVED the game, they would all be playin in Europe..cuz if they did, then the level of play would be the same as in the NBA (obviously)..it’s all about the money…anyway, Rest In Peace NBA (1947-2011)

  • LA Huey

    Guys, this is Dennis Rodman… He’s the predecessor to Metta World Peace!

  • http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/10/13/2011-10-13_excop_we_fabricated_drug_raps_for_quotas.html Allenp

    And I will repeat, given the numbers on total NBA revenue already released the players and owners split the total revenues at roughly at 50/50 level already.
    The players get $2.16 billion, the owners get $2.14 billion.
    Under the deals the owners have discussed, the owners would get a minimum of at least $2.4 billion moving forward, while the players would get $1.9 billion. And that’s in just the first year. Those are the real numbers, all you have to do is the math.

  • http://twitter.com/SylvanusUagbor Sylvanus

    So we are discrediting Rodman because of his grotesque ways? Please. He’s right. Players are overpaid. It’s the owners fault and they’ve finally realized it. Eddy Curry is believed to making $ and he hasn’t played

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I thought were discrediting Rodman because he’s rarely lucid?
    I mean, the only reason he’s receiving credit now is because people agree with his comments.
    It’s not that they were particularly astute, or contained new information or insight, it’s that they are co-signing what people already believe.
    And explain the concept of “overpaid.”
    Overpaid based on what scale? How much money should players receive based on what is owned by the operation of the NBA?
    And explain how you determined that figure please. I’d like to explore how you arrived at the idea that players are overpaid.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Oh, and just to set the record straight on the “great” deal NBA players received. This is from a Sports Illustrated article right after the new deal was signed.
    I said, early on in the lockout, that this was the contract that changed the landscape,” NBA deputy commissioner Russ Granik says. “This was the one where owners said something had to be done. The magnitude of Garnett’s contract indicated the whole thing was out of control.”

    “I think most owners looked at the contract and said, ‘This is where it’s going,’ ” Indiana Pacers president Donnie Walsh says. “There was no leverage on the side of the team. None.”

    “You had a new, inexperienced owner overpaying to keep a star,” another owner says. “That’s how most owners saw it. At the same time, though, they looked at their own situations. What was going to happen when the next class of rookies came up for extensions, Allen Iverson in Philadelphia, Antoine Walker in Boston?” The owners took advantage of an option to reopen the agreement after three years, and they shut down operations until a new contract was reached. Under the new one, there is a cap on salaries for all players. If Garnett were to sign now, the maximum he would receive would be $71 million over six years. He made roughly $60 million more by signing when he did. No, he made more than that. Much more.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Allen if the league is growing the BRI split should have a higher total right? Cuz under what you just said that league overall is going to lose .27 Billion dollars

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Horse racing is the worst pseudo-sport ever. WHY ARE WE STILL RIDING HORSES IN THIS DAY AND AGE?!?! We’ll literally enslave an entire species just so we can ride on their backs… for fun… even though we have something called cars.

  • bull22

    @datkid jealous of what? he has 5 rings, one of greatest defenders ever,
    and entered the hall of fame this year. its clear here that you and many others blasting him here were not pistons or bulls fans..

  • Kilo

    If Rodman doesn’t think the players derserve the money, then call the ownwers stupid for overpayng the players, creating a market that overpays the athetes. It’s that simple.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    NBK
    What do you mean?
    I didn’t project growth because with all the bad press from this lockout, I doubt they get 4 percent revenue growth this season, not to mention the missed games.
    I just used the total revenue figures from last year.
    I rounded them off too.
    But, last year, they made $4.3 billion.
    $2.16 billion to the players, $2.14 Billion to the owners.
    If player’s percentage of BRI is dropped to 50 percent, given last season’s numbers, it would be 2.4 billion for owners, $1.9 billion for players.
    That’s based on the BRI percentage, plus the $500 million in revenue the owners received that was not included in the BRI.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Oh my ba Allen I was just reading that wrong. Commenting from a car on my phone isn’t workin too well.

  • bike

    DeSagana Diop make about 6.5 million/year and accounts for 14.5 percent of total salaries for the Bobcats. He averages 3 points a game. That should qualify as overpaid. Whether the owner made a stupid mistake, overestimated his ability, or had little or no options in terms of getting another big man is irrelevant. He is overpaid and these type of situations need to be corrected. The question is how.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    @Bull22 – why is Rodman jealous?
    Could it be because his highest paid season he made $9 million, his second-highest he made $4.5 million, and those were the only two seasons he made more than $2.5 mil in a season?
    Could it be because he made $26 million in his career, meanwhile someone like LaMarcus Aldridge who just finished up his fifth season, had already made $30 million?
    Look past his accolades, and you’ll see dude was seriously underpaid so yeah, he probably is jealous of today’s players.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    I smell jealousy. Old-school NBA players have this sly way of despising the new-age players for the kind of money they are making. It’s a shame too because you don’t see it in any other sports.
    I don’t remember Willie Mays ever hating on Bonds or ARod because they are making 25mill a year. Dan Marino never hates on Peyton or Brady because they are making 18mill a year. Wayne Gretzky never hates on Sidney Crosby because he’s making 9mill a year.
    Also, how doe Rodman know that these guys don’t care about the game? I doubt he’s around them during the summer or during the season to know what they are doing in their down time for him to talk like that.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    So, your definition of overpaid is based on player performance compared to contract size?
    Ok, cool.
    Now, what percentage of the 450 players in the League are overpaid in your estimation?
    I would imagine that we can eliminate all players still on their rookie scale contracts, correct? Those are still the best bargains in sports.
    Then I would imagine we can eliminate all superstars, all-stars and All-NBA selections, correct? After all, due to the system, they are actually underpaid based on what we’ve seen.
    Then you have the players playing on minimum deals, or close to minimum deals. Surely they aren’t overpaid right?
    Then you have the players who perfectly meet the demands of their contracts, or exceed them. Can’t forget those folks.
    So, how many players do you think are left over? 10 percent? 20 percent?
    So, you’re saying that 45-90 players are bankrupting the entire League?
    Just think about it.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    In all fairness, if you did a job for say, 30 grand a year, then left that job and a few years later someone was doing that same job for 50 grand a year, and perhaps not even doing it as well as you did, most of you would be jealous and/or heated too.
    I know I would.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Well, don’t be mad at the guy that’s making 50grand, be mad at the owner that agreed to pay him that kind of money. You should never hate anyone for making whatever it’s they make especially if they earned or their employer to stupid enough to pay them such and such. For example, I’m not mad at Arenas or RLewis or AJamison for making the kind of money they make even though I feel it’s undeserved, I’m mad at the owners for agreeing to pay those guys that kind of money.
    I think the lockout has shown me that people love to direct their anger at the easiest target (the players) while completely ignore the biggest and only problem (the owners).

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Next question would be why are the players considered an easier target? You keep asking questions, and you’ll learn some interesting things about people.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    The Owners also don’t have to offer guaranteed contracts. That is not a rule. They choose to offer guarantee’s. Literally none of this situation is the players fault, if you think everyone should be treated fairly.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    It has to do with Race. I know most people don’t like to discuss or choose to ignore race but it plays a huge factor in society. It’s much easier for people to label a tall/black guy with tattoos, lazy and undeserving of millions of dollars than it is to label a short/white guy in a suit raking in billions of dollars, lazy and greedy.
    It took what a century+ for people to realize that the biggest crooks are the guys in suits on Wall Street but for decades before that the biggest criminal on the block in people’s eyes was the “black guy”.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    It’s a shame that the public sees it that way but the Justice System doesn’t. How many of those guys on Wall Street have been arrested for swindling billions of dollars from the public? Maybe one or two but every day on the news, you hear about such and such black guy getting 30yrs in prison for one crime or another.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    And the rich white dudes that do get locked up end up in a cozy minimum security country club.
    While the poor black dude ends up in an overcrowded maximum prison.
    Imagine if they switched it up?
    Dave Chappelle shoulda made a skit about that…hmm…..

  • http://shinefluid@aol.com yada

    dont give in to ish!! why everybody got such a hard-on for the players?? never say anything about the owners. i guess because they know the players but couldnt tell u but what a handful of owners look like. outta sight outta mind i guess

  • Retnan

    Yeah a 50/50 rev split is a “raw deal” okay.

  • Patrick

    Marcel: I disagree with you (the author of this article), i don’t think the owners’ union is trying to give the players’ union a raw deal. Why? 50% for each union for BRI sounds fair to my ears. I haven’t heard arguments compelling as to why one side should get more than just splitting it equally. It’s common sense, I think.

    Further, a bunch of owners are losing money (or they claim..i believe them). I think the players should agree to terms that allow more to be profitable.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Just to be clear, splitting BRI equally is not the same as splitting revenue equally.
    Just to make sure that’s clear.

  • bike

    It’s not about race. The players are at a major PR disadvantage compared to Stern and the owners. No offense to the players, but they simply don’t do a very good job at presenting a united and educated message about their position. They tweet endlessly about how this all sucks, they talk about going overseas, or they say idiotic things at press conferences (think Amar’e saying ‘Let’s start our own league!’). And most nba fans are not that educated about this whole labor dispute and really don’t care. Meanwhile, Stern coldly and calculatingly, does these public interviews where he carefully spins his yarn. The players, in comparison, are complete amateurs.

  • bike

    My definition of overpaid is not based on contract size. It is based on the relationship between the ratio of the player’s salary to the total amount of salaries on a team and some reasonable measure of that player’s contribution to the team.

  • treetrunks

    agree with bike..nothing to do with race..more about age and social status..the players are easy targets because they are young athletes from working class or poor backgrounds..they fit the a certain stereotype..it’s the same wit soccer players in Europe; a lot of them are seen as spoiled brats, and most of them are white…

  • bull22

    @enigmatic, i see what you are saying and i agree he was underpaid, but i don’t think he is jealous. the type of player he was and the funny character he was can’t be duplicated by everyone. remember lots of players have copied him since he has been retired.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    bulls22 you’re an idiot. jealous that players today make a lot more than he did.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Treetrunks
    What stereotype do you think player’s fit?
    And Bike
    based on your definition, how many players are overpaid. Give me a number in your estimation.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Because I’d wager, you don’t actually know the salaries of most players in the League, or the total team salaries for most teams.

  • bull22

    @jtaylor, if you want to be a civil rights activist, please transport yourself back to sixties and help out MLK man. bringing out the race card in this issue is pure nonsense… i know people who work and have worked around nba players and brother NOBODY in the nba is treated like a slave…

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Ima sit this one out.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Keep on ignoring race if you want but race plays a factor in everything that goes on in the world. Just because the majority of people choose to ignore or even have a conversation about race doesn’t mean that it goes away.
    How long ago was the 1960s? Compared to how long humans have been on earth, it’s a millisecond.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    You in the hell said anything about NBA players’ being “slaves”. Sheeeeeeeit, anything that involves controversy tends to bring out the village idiots.

  • treetrunks

    it’s not just race…if u focus on that alone, u forget about everything else..race really isn’t the whole picture

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I can tell you the relative salary for every team, and most big minute players. And I can tell you that for every guy that is overpaid there is atleast 1 that is underpaid. When you figure in rookies (or guys on rookie contracts, and superstars like LeBron and Wade) – The problem is, teams that don’t make the playoffs that have a lot of overpaid players. Like Utah & Phoenix for example.

  • treetrunks

    Allenp: players fit the same sterotype than other young people from poverty or the working class..ignorant, lazy, violent…ok, if they’re black it’s a bit worse

  • bike

    Allenp. As I am sure you are aware, there are several websites that list each nba team’s total salary expenditures and the salaries for each individual player. Hoopshype.com is an example. In order to come up with an estimate of ‘overpaid’ players, if I had all these figures in a spreadsheet coupled with a reasonable measure of each player’s contribution to a team; I could derive that number you requested. There would have to be some wiggle room here…obviously you can’t just look at points, rebounds, and assists but I’ll bet you could come up with a measure that would flag the outliers. Diop would obviously get flagged—he consumes 14.5 percent of total salaries but doesn’t play much and averages only 3 points a game.

  • treetrunks

    but i’m sayin certain white soccer players from europe often get the same criticism as some NBA players..what do they have in common? they come from humble backgrounds and seem “uneducated”

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Of course it’s not all about race but for you to sit there and act like race isn’t playing a factor in how NBA players’ are viewed, you’re fooling yourself. Billy Hunter (head of NBAPA) has been doing the same thing Stern has the past few weeks (talking to the media and making a case for the players), the only difference is no one in the media (especially ESPN) is giving Hunter the time of the day while everything that comes out Stern’s mouth (lies about teams “hemorrhaging” money) are treated as fact and reported on every front page.

  • treetrunks

    ok, maybe race does play a part..i guess you’re right..i just imagined how it would all look like if most owners were black and players white..imagine if most NHL team owners were black!!!

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Bike and NBK
    What percentage would you all say given that definition?
    10 percent?
    20 percent?
    30?
    40?
    50?
    People say “Players are overpaid.”
    But, based on what scale? And how many players fit that description? How many are underpaid, or correctly paid?
    I think that when many people say “Players are overpaid” they mean “They make way too much money to play a game.”
    If that’s the case, then why are they ok with owners, coaches, general manages and team presidents making tons of money, with guaranteed contracts in the same business?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Tree Trunks
    The funny thing is that you arrived at the conclusion without me saying another word.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I’d say 30% are overpaid, 30% underpaid. 40% around a fair salary. The question is, how overpaid & underpaid are the guys that fit in those categories. Like Kobe for example, is probably underpaid by $9M, while Arenas is overpaid by probably $16M.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    ^ Good point.
    So, that’s 135 overpaid. 135 underpaid. and 180 correctly paid.
    And, while the amount they are overpaid is important, what about the total team impact the underpaid have that translates into wins or dollars?
    Basically, using this concept of overpaid, the issue for the League cannot be that way too many players are just making way too money they don’t earn.
    You look at cats like Durant and Westbrook, who were on their rookie deals last year and the year before, if I”m not mistaken. You telling me OKC wasn’t getting their money’s worth plus a huge bonus with them and Ibaka?

  • http://nba.com GP23

    Didn’t LeBron take a pay cut to join the Heat?… Correct me if im wrong, but im sure the Cavs offered him a larger salary than the Heat did.. and LeBron still chose the Heat. He cares about winning more than the money, however, saying that, I wish he stayed in Cleveland. But i respect his decision… he wants to win. How many players would have took a pay cut and do what LeBron did??

  • bike

    I would hope MOST people would say ‘some players are overpaid, some players are underpaid, and some players are worth what they are paid’. You can’t say player X is overpaid if that player makes 10 million/year if it’s not in relation to something. It seems the only way to relate that number is to what percentage that is of a total team’s salary expenditure for that year. I would assume that’s how an owner would do it—he looks at that percentage and compares it to some measure of productivity. If that 10 million/year is 20 percent of all salaries/team and the player averages 10 min/game and 2 pts/game then that owner might be inclined to say this dude is getting too much.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Allen, with that in mind (OKC was probably hugely profitable when comparing player salary to team revenue) (Teams like Phx who spent tons of money on guys like Childress Warrick & Dudley but didn’t make the playoffs) why the h*ll hasn’t revenue sharing been implemented already. The salary structure had to have similar complications in the late 90′s, this would seem like an obvious solution, for everyone not in LA or NY.

  • http://adventoutpost.com Sylvanus

    Some of these guys on this thread assume that Rodman is jealous. Wrong. He stating the facts about the state of the NBA. Money driven players who care more about self than the NBA. Most players dressed down to the meetings as if this was a night club or regular day. If they yearn respect, they have to be forthright and professionals

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Oh yeah Sylvanus, do you do your job for fun? Or do you do it for money? Do you feel you should be paid fairly? Do you feel like you should get money taken away from you because your boss is irresponsible? And what the h*ll does Baron Davis wearing a flannel shirt have to do with fair wage practices?

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    I really don’t remember seeing Dennis Rodman in a suit and tie much, and I watched all his Bulls games…

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    I read somewhere that the Owners have agreed to revenue sharing but instead of the owners having to put money in a pot, they rather get it off the players’ back.

  • seriousblack

    Smh, so many of you just don’t get it. Rodman is an idiot btw. Completely and utterly foolish.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    @GP23 – That whole “LeBron took less money to play with the Heat” thing is blown way out of proportion, in my opinion.
    There’s no state tax in Florida and what dude makes in NBA salary is a distant second to what he makes in endorsements anyways.
    Whether he loves the game or the money though, only he knows and I can only imagine he must love the game at least a little cause dude puts in work in the offseason.

  • bull22

    @sylvanus, solid points.. but you can’t reason with some of these bozos,, for example just the fact that nbk asks you about your job and apparently is making comparisons to having an nba job gives a strong indication that he either is in high school and has never had a job or a person who stays on the unemployment line because he feels he is underpaid..

  • AD

    slaves only bow down to owners… rodman b quiet

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I am not underpaid. I am at work right now.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    A career is a career Bull. You have to be a moron to think just because these guys make exorbitant amounts of money they shouldn’t be treated fairly. Which you are, so there’s that.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    bull22 – can I ask, why is it that pretty much ever since you started commenting on here, you take every opportunity you can to insult most, if not all, of the regulars on here?
    I mean, you make it seem as if we’re some evil empire and you and whichever non-regular dare to disagree with us are some freedom fighters or something.
    It’s not that serious. No one here really thinks their sh*t don’t stink just because we’ve been commenting on here for the last however many years.
    nbk is not Darth Sidious, I am not Darth Maul. And so on…

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    I call Vader^ Oh wait were not evil? dam. Skywalker it is! Wait he was kinda making out with his sister at one point. Umm, call me Han Solo Dolo.

  • LA Huey

    I’ll only be a Sith if I get to be called Darth Huey. Otherwise, I got dibbs on Huey Fett.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I’m Samuel L Jackson.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    LOL, I’ll be Darth Matic.
    Sounds dope.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Soop, you’re Soop Soop Binks!
    Lake, you should be LakeShow Carlissian…mostly for your flip-flopping ways.
    Ha! Sorry dude, couldn’t help myself…

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    lmao

  • http://adventoutpost.com Sylvanus

    Listen NBK, did you watch the NFL lockout resolution? You want respect you come professionally including attire. Do you dress in a shirt and tie for an interview or flannel shirt? Think son! And if you think about self you get the lockout situation. NBA is player-driven because the owners set it that way, now they wanna see profit because players are overpaid in NBA standards. What’s hard to understand?

  • bull22

    @enigmatic, of course its not serious. iam just merely pointing out to some of these new users, that some here to just love to gang up on individuals making a good point…. so no i don’t think there is a evil empire here.

  • http://adventoutpost.com Sylvanus

    And Enigmatic was Rodman at a negotiating table with Owners? No, but Baron Davis is and he look stupid. D Fisher suit and tie, which is the proper attire. Most players only understand the BRI equation, we get 53% owners get 47%. Other principles they have no clue

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    OK, cool.
    So can I still be Darth Matic tho?

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    So you think Rodman would’ve been in a suit and tie if he was in a negotiating table with owners?
    I think Rodman would be in a suit and tie if he were lying in a casket at the morgue.
    Other than that…

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    The NBA players that are overpaid, are overpaid because the guys locking them out CHOSE to overpay them. ANd really, about the clothes thing again? You aren’t going to treat the players fairly because one guy didn’t wear a suit and tie? This isn’t a f*ckin interview, its a dispute over wages. And the NFL lockout was resolved because revenue is already shared, every owner no matter how bad at (football) business they are, makes a profit. (and Football is extremely more profitable then basketball in the first place) Look at MLB, they have the strongest union of any major american sport, and not because they follow a dress code, but because they are united and willing to miss a season to get what they want. (see the 1994-95 STRIKE) – Its pretty stupid anyone argues the owners side of a lockout, its self explanatory who the problems come from. Its a lockout, in a system that the Owners created. Owners choose lockouts, players choose strikes. Basically the owners are punishing the players because they lack the intelligence or self control to remain competitive and under budget. (see Oklahoma City, San Antonio) SO they want to create even more regulations to protect themselves, from themselves.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Do you even know what is included in the BRI Sylvanus? Do you know about the $500M the owners get (that would be part of the BRI) before any money is divided up? Or how about how much money the owners make off of suites, and arena naming rights? Do you realize that the current 57-43 split actually comes out to about 51-49, without even factoring in all of the extra income (suites, naming rights, etc)?

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    What have I ever flip flopped on? F*ckit, i’ll be the bigger man and take Princess LeiakShow!

  • LA Huey

    nbk, don’t forget to mention that some owners actually own their arenas and the money they make renting it out to trade shows, concerts, etc. aren’t included in the BRI. The same arenas that were only subsidized by tax dollars because the public knew it was for their NBA/NHL team.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Oh and that too. Good lookin out Huey.

  • http://nba.com GP23

    .. and I guess I’m G-3PO

  • http://www.rich-imaging.com Dutch Rich

    Wow, over a hundred comments with everybody mentioned from the players to the GM’s to the owners to the union and the league. Yet No-one of mentioned the agents. When an agreement seemed to surface last week it was the agents in the background that threatened to disband the union and discard Hunter for being weak. While Hunter is looking out for the little guys the agents are concerned about the big contracts and the money they stand to lose if the owners come out on top. Players don’t asses their own worth, when Sprewell tried that he found himself out of a job. There are a lot of visible representatives but this fight is really between the commissioner and the agents if you ask me. And it’s about long money for them. Most players end up retiring to humble lifestyle and the superstars aren’t too worried about dough since the bulk comes from endorsements, and guess what the agents are getting a piece of that too so it’s no wonder they are ready to hold out considering that they are focused on the big picture. These are the greedy ba$tards you need to direct your animosity towards. The players are really victims in that they just really want to do what defines them which is not making money but playing the game they are best at. Give them a break already. You think they agents care about the ticket ushers and their jobs…please!!!

  • http://www.rich-imaging.com Dutch Rich

    A few typos, sorry. One more thing. There is a parallel with overpriced real estate and it’s a win/lose equation.
    The buyer doesn’t benefit but those who engage and control the transactions do. The real estate agents and banks profits from overpricing, everybody else loses. In the NBA even Stern (NBA) doesn’t suffer from overpriced athletes but he has a complaining constituency (owners) to keep happy. Stern welcomes the exorbitant salaries as it justifies him to levy huge sums through fines and whatnot and peddle his asset to corporate sponsors and the duped fans, who are both funding the whole charade.

  • Tuomas

    People b*tching about the players know their faces and who they are. The owners, not so much. It’s really (almost) that simple.

    And Sylvanus: Yeah, think. That way you might just be able to form one valid argument. It would be the first.

  • http://bulls.com airs

    im so mad i missed this thread.
    but if no one called it, im lando.

  • dcp

    rodman is right on target. he has been around, made a lot of money and his perspective should be LISTENED TO. If the season is cancelled players lose, period. Owners will still be rich, but players, most players will suffer severely financially. The owners can easily replace the players with others who want to work for a fairer deal. The way I see, if the players are smart they will accept what the owners are offering and get back to work before they lose everything. Most importantly, once you lose the fan support, there will be no more fuel for the engine to run.

  • TP

    Almost everything Rodman says has at least a half-truth to it.
    And his comments about over-paid players does too.

    “I told her I didn’t like her music.”
    - Rodman commenting on his once-girlfriend Madonna

  • Justin

    nbk, asking someone if they do their job for the money or for fun is an irrelevant arguement considering most of us don’t play a game for a living. And L.A. Huey, why would money for concerts and trade shows etc. be tied in with BASKETBALL related income?

  • Justin

    That’s like saying endorsements and other business ventures should be included in what the players make in relation to the BRI as well

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    You still have to think about it like a job. Aka a means to ensuring the future of your family. You know, not all of these guys are being greedy, they are just doing what any of us would, getting what they can.

  • Feez22

    … I think we should all just realise that there won’t be basketball until christmas and maybe further. Period. by the way… the owners are using the excuse of an “economic downturn” and players like charles barkley are buying into this nonsense. its crazy. The economic downturn will last at least 3-4 more years. This deal is for 10 YEARS. the NBA is already the 2nd most popular sport in america and is gaining popularity outside of North America. The owners pretty much are going the way of NHL owners. the difference? the NBA is much more profitable,popular worldwide than the NHL and is GROWING EXPONENTIALLY. yall see the ratings this year? this yrs ratings shattered records. & its been growing for years now. The players will not bow down guys. Its that simple. The old heads are jealous and thats an understatement. i listened to charles the other day on nba tv with reggie and they were like the nba players of today are getting money THEY created because of the success of their era. That may be true. However the old guys before reggie and chuck could have said the same thing back in 99. Revisionist history. Guys & Girls i don’t know what to tell you. Next thing you know the nba will be trying to approve non guaranteed contracts NFL style. The NBA players obviously need to give up some money. NBA players are the most paid employees on average WORLDWIDE. However, they are sticking at 53% BRI bc the fees will bring that to a 50/50 split just like everyone wants. Except the owners… W/E im done with this. I saw this lockout coming ages ago. we were warned. Just enjoy the NFL season for now. Thats what i’m doing… & if you don’t like football well… Tough Luck. I’ll go back to studying for midterms now. peace.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    And the vast majority don’t get any endorsement deals. Like 95%

  • Justin

    95% may be a little bit high. I mean, maybe they don’t get national endorsements but locally they do. And if the players are going to “get what they can”, aren’t the owners entitled to do the same thing? I understand that the owners may not have opened up their books entirely but let’s not kid ourselves into thinking that they aren’t losing money either. A lot of you people are also thinking that it’s just the player salaries causing the owners money. It’s also a lease on the building (if they don’t own it), costs to operate, etc. If there’s a recession or if costs go up who loses the money? It sure as hell isn’t the players. I mean, the players get a food allowance! They don’t make enough money that they can’t buy their own food when they’re on the road? It’s ridiculous

  • BostonBaller

    Usually when you own a company you make more money than your employees right? I don’t have a problem with that since that is how it works in everything but employees make the company run therefore they should get a fair share. In the real world if you don’t like your pay you can leave the company but no player is stupid enough to leave the NBA and millions. (they can play overseas as a full time career if it was just for the love. lol) The owners created most of this mess by signing players who were not worthy to mega deals and now they want to shut the barn do. A player gets a taste of that mega $$ and it’s like a shark to blood. If you are a CSR you get less $$ than a supervisor who gets less than a Mgr who gets less than a director and so on. The same should hold true in the nba…a player who gets no burn makes less than one who gets a little burn and so forth. The owners can’t want a hard pay scale when they broke the scale and players can’t want a bag full of gold when they don’t work the mine.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    I have been saying this since this dumb lockout started. The average NBA salary is double or triple what it was years ago. These players can take a 10 to 30% pay cut and still feed their kids, pay child support and waste money on million dollar homes and expensive cars. The players need to lose some money to play and understand they work for the Owners, not the other way around. BOOK IT!!

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    The players aren’t employees. They are the product. And no, normally the company does not spend more money on their boss then on their product.

  • http://adventoutpost.com Sylvanus

    Wasn’t able to respond to some of these post at 3am sorry or 5am. But BRI are basketball related income which include ticket sales, tv revenue, etc. Anything that the NBA generates. And NBK, a vast majority is incorrect. A lot of these players have endorsements, not as well known as your LeBron or Kobe but they have endorsements. ANd the players are the employees. They work for the team, thus covered by the NBA which is the parent company. And NBK, take your mind away from the players mind and think like a owner. If players make a bulk of the BRI how would the owners make $? Without $, no team competes and if you heard some teams may not survive the lockout meaning contraction.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Lol your horribly misinformed. That’s obvious from that comment. Google salary cap FAQ by Larry Coon. Or read some of the lockout articles on here. Allen did one called by the numbers, that will be informative for you. Do some research, and then come back and respond.

  • seriousblack

    @ Sylvanus: Dude, you have little to no clue about what’s going on. First off, the vast majority of these guys don’t have very lucrative endorsement contracts. You have no data to back up that claim. To compare the amount of money players make off of endorsements to the amount owners make in areas that they refuse to include in BRI would be stupid even if all players got endorsement deals. The owners’ income will always dwarf the players’. Almost none of the teams that claim to be losing money would be had they excercised fiscal responsibility. It’s not the players’ fault that they took money that was OFFERED. I think it’s pretty clear that former players are definitely jealous of the amount of money they never had the opportunity to make. It’s completely and utterly hypocritical for them to even open their mouths about these guys because NONE of them would have turned down the money if it was offered back then. Nobody put a gun to the owner’s heads and made them sign guys like Mike Conley, Rudy Gay, Eddie Curry to massive contracts. Furthermore, if the money wasn’t there it wouldn’t have even been offered in the first place. Now the owners want the players to pay for their own lack of responsibility. That’s beyond hypocritical. Not only do they want the new CBA to underpay even the biggest superstars, but the owners refuse to honor contracts already signed during the previous labor deal. That means that even the guys who signed contracts as late as LAST SEASON will be asked to give back money on those same deals. That is indefensible, and it further weakens the owners’ claims of losing money. Even if you view the players as employees, you’d have to have serious resentment toward the players to not aknowledge that paying a guy like Lebron a max of $12 million is paying him well below market value. Ask Dan Gilbert about his team’s post-Lebron revenue. No one is saying that every player is entitled to $20 million a year, but to take away the option of making that money is wrong. The hostility toward the players is wrong. And if you doubted the presence of racially tinged negative attitudes towards the players look no further than The Seed’s moronic 11:34am comment. The sibliminals say a lot. They also resemble a lot of the public’s attitudes towards these guys.

  • http://adventoutpost.com Sylvanus

    Hey Serious Black, no one said the players received lucrative endorsement deals. Read again. A lot of players have endorsement deals but are not your Lebron’s and Kobe’s. And your sources are? Oh. I know a few players in the league who are not big stars, however, have endorsement deals. Who compared endorsement $ to owners revenue? Who said that? Everyone on this thread is proving Rodman’s point. And NBK if you heard the interview David Stern had with Stephen A Smith, and the media outlets YESTERDAY, he made reference to teams not being able to survive the lockout. So in other words, there could be contraction. Last year, LeBron made reference to the league benefiting from it because the playing level would be a tad bit equal if few teams were gone. Oh. Parity is another issue the owners are fighting. Only teams like the Lakers can afford to remain strong in financial tough times and other teams. Serious Black you want to throw #’s out there, players are still employees.

    Oh and please visit Adrian W columns on Yahoo to get more info. And NBK: horribly misinformed about what? What’s in BRI “Regular-season gate receipts — the money generated by individual ticket sales and all forms of season-ticket plans -” Source: CBS Sports, Broadcast Rights = TV Revenue. When a network broadcast games, thats revenue generated. Oh. And I’m not an accountant so I’m not gonna act like I know the #’s breakdown, and neither are you guys on the thread. If that was the case you would’ve ended the lockout.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    David Stern is a spinster, who works for the owners. You need to do research for real.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    There are numbers available. You don’t have to be an accountant to do simple math.

  • http://adventoutpost.com Sylvanus

    David Stern has valid points and the owners are still at fault for this

  • andy

    from what im reading a lot of people are missing the point of what is holding up the deal. we are talking BRI, not player contracts. we are talking gate money tv deals n merchandise. a 50-50 split for this type of income is fair. after all if I OWNED a team I think I would deserve that money since I am bankrolling the operation. and the other point of increasing the penalty on the luxury tax seems like a great idea. even though im a lakers fan the concept of ‘buying’ a title annoys me. milwuake should have as much of a chance as new york. they tried a dollar for dollar luxury tax but that was not enough of a detterent (dal lal nyc can afford it).
    the owners have agrees to revenue sharing to keep a 30 league team going but the players are digging in for god knows what. Stern has admitted the last two CBAs have been entirely in the favour of the players and now in his last CBA he is trying to put in a system to ensure growth for the next decade. The players need to make the concession on these two issues and then go forward from there.
    And if players were smart why dont you be smart with your money while you play n then when you finish look to become a part owner in a team yourself. As far as I know Magic n MJ are the only ones that have done that. Hunter should step aside n let Fish handle this, he actually did understand a 50-50 is fair and Wade needs to sit down. Your ass is not paying income tax in Florida and you are a spokesperson for Hublot whos watches go for some ridiculously crazy price so dont whine about BRI n Salary Cap. For all intents n purposes Stern is your daddy, he is the commish of the best bball league in the world that gives you the opportunity to showcase your talent. It is also no ones fault you have to pay crazy child support.
    Please notice I did not mention actual player contracts or guaranteed contracts.. this should be the least of there worries because if you are good at ball you will get paid. Period.

  • http://adventoutpost.com Sylvanus

    Everyone is prognosticator behind the computer trying to use numbers they read as leverage for their arguments. Facts are Facts. Rodman’s right. Stern will eventually win.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Stern will eventually win, nobody is arguing he won’t. The owners get their money, they already make about 50% when you factor in all of the other income from basketball that doesn’t fit in the BRI, their $500M off the top of the BRI stipend, and huge enormous tax breaks. They aren’t responsible enough or honest enough to show a profit. Some cities just shouldn’t have teams, it has ALWAYS been that way. And the league will NEVER have “competitive balance” – parity? Maybe a little more then normal, but no competitive balance. Never. This lockout is meant to ensure a larger profit for the sum of the owners, everything else is just an argument to get people to buy into what they are trying to sell. Which is a system close to that of the NHL/NFL, where the players rights in what should be a free market are restrained by regulations and rules to keep the Owners from running THEMSELVES, out of the league.

  • andy

    @nbk wont shorter contract lengths help the player rights?

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Not for an athlete. It is better to know your future then too have question marks like will you even be good enough in 4 years to get a contract at all, let alone one that totals what you’d get paid in the last years of a longer deal, unless your a superstar. And even then the risk of injury is the really big concern (For Example, Amare was offered the same contract in Phoenix that he signed in New York, but he had to play atleast 40 games over each of the last 2 seasons of the deal to earn his money – so it was non-guaranteed and he declined and took the deal in New York) Owners want to get rid of guaranteed contracts longer then 4 years all together, And for good reason, they can’t help but give guys like eddy curry 6 year $60M dollar contracts.

  • http://slamonline.com Michael

    Sylvanus you alright? You speaking but I’m not hearing

  • http://adventoutpost.com Sylvanus

    ^^^ This guy.

  • Justin

    seriousblack, nobody is taking away the option of paying somebody $20M/year…as long as what everyone else on the team is getting paid all fits under the cap. The owners also took the salary rollback off the table.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    No they can’t pay anyone more then roughly $13M starting with 10% increase eAch year for 4 years as the Max deal. So no, under the new deal nobody gonna get $20M a year

  • curtis

    i could almost agree but dennis aint nuthin but a drunkin addict

  • curtis

    if fact how about all those selfish jerks donate to an active service member they aint playin a kids games for a livin

  • CubicleWorker

    Allenp, the more debates you become involved in the more I realize you have no idea at all what you’re talking about. For one, you still haven’t understood the difference between revenue and profit. Secondly, you keep getting caught up on the fact that there are a couple of relatively small income streams that the players aren’t involved in. Keep in mind owners don’t get any portion of endorsement deals. I know you’re going to have some type of logic to justify the difference but seriously, stop posting at this point. It’s ridiculous and I’m no longer acknowledging anything you write about this lockout. At least not until you understand the difference between revenue and profit.

  • https://plus.google.com/photos/106403650426394352312/albums/posts davidR

    you guys seem pretty caught up on the income/revenue part. the REAL problem is the expenses, which the owners have to account for, which affects the BOTTOM LINE.
    then again, they won’t reveal what their expenses are, so it’s impossible to tell how bad they are in the negative (if they even are in the negative).
    regardless, stop focusing on the part about how much revenue the owners receive. it’s a moot point, and it’s incomplete and irresponsible.

  • https://plus.google.com/photos/106403650426394352312/albums/posts davidR

    in case you guys don’t know the difference:
    revenue = how much money you rake in from your business activities
    expenses = how much money your business activities cost you
    profit/loss = the money left over AFTER you subtract expenses from your revenue.
    the owners are trying to imply that even with all the revenue they’re making, it’s not enough to cover expenses.
    i’m just speculating, but after cuban came into the league, i’m sure expenses shot through the roof. dallas wasn’t exactly a favorable franchise to play for when he bought it, but he competed by basically pampering his players with extra perks like trainers, nutritionists, private jets, 5 star hotels, etc. well, it also helped that he was able to get this dude named dirk, but yea..
    would it be safe to assume that more owners are beginning to adopt a similar philosophy, which leads to the spending increasing by record amounts?

  • http://www.slamonline.com UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER

    FUCCIN STAR WARS GEEKS

  • seriousblack

    Um Sylvanus, If you have data to back up your claims that most of them have deals please share. Also, it’s not our fault that you don’t consider real numbers valid “facts” the way you consider Stern’s and jealous old heads opinions as “facts”. Read info other than opinion pieces favoring the owners and then we can talk. Same to you Justin. @ Andy: What the players spend their money on is completely irrelevent to this discussion and the issue overall. We’re talking about fair compensation in a labor dispute and you can’t help but bring up whatever stereotypical personal issue you can think of to discredit their position. Thanks. I love how people keep proving my point about resentment towards these guys.

  • seriousblack

    Oh, and cubicleworker just proved my point about idiots comparaing player endorsements income to owners income in areas not counted as BRI.

  • Brahsef

    Rodman’s slave mentality is on great display

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    “It’s not a war on class… it’s math.”
    (Barry Soetoro)

  • CubicleWorker

    “Some of the things specifically not included in BRI are proceeds from the grant of expansion teams, fines, and revenue sharing (e.g. luxury tax).”

    So we can do math if you guys really want to…
    http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/fines.html#11-12
    That link will tell you all the fines for the year, someone can total those if you want…

    Next there was no expansion teams so that revenue stream doesn’t exist.

    FInally the luxury taxes, players are already getting paid their salary, so the luxury tax is punitive. It doesn’t even make logical sense for players to split that but lets just humour some of you idiots for a second. The luxury cap level is $70,307,000. Four teams went over the luxury cap level for a total of $67M of luxury tax paid.

    Lets put that in comparison to the endorsements earned by the top four players: LBJ, Kobe, D12 and Dirk. A total of $66M of endorsements.
    Source:http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/specials/fortunate50-2011/index.html

    I’m not in anyway saying that players should include endorsements in BRI, but don’t make backwards logic statements. If you claim that owners should revenue share to spread the money equally, then you at least have to consider the possibility of players splitting endorsements. I don’t agree with either but you can’t look at one without considering the equivalent on the other side. Once again, feel free to prove me wrong with mathematical facts. But if we’re talking apples and apples, don’t try to call one of the apples an orange and say I’m an idiot. *rollseyes*

  • CubicleWorker

    It’s the same logic as people saying “owners won’t have a product without the players”, if the players don’t have the NBA they don’t have a medium with such a vast exposure to advertise their skill set and make such lucrative endorsement deals.

  • CubicleWorker

    NBK do you mind informing us of which “huge tax breaks” the owners get?

  • dcom

    i think its commons sense..if the players are guaranteed 57% then the onus is on the owner to keep the other expenses down to ensure profit. players may drive up other costs beside wages but they sure as hell dont approve them. basically its on the owners for not being able to manage there their business

  • seriousblack

    The NBA provides the greatest exposure, not the only exposure. The business of pro basketball isn’t exclusive to the NBA , so your point doesn’t hold water. The players can still play in other leagues. They’d obviously make less money but they could still receive some exposure so there is no way they league could be entitled to that money. The same doesn’t hold true for the owners. They literally would have no product whatsoever without the players. At the end of the day, they are making money off of these guys’ individual images and names. Merchandise and tv revenue is directly tied to the players. There has never and will never be a time where the owners weren’t making more money than the players. Do you really believe Kobe Bryant has made more money off of his name and image than Jerry Buss? Fair is fair and the owners don’t want what’s fair.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Good to year Cubicle.
    I understand profits and losses quite well.
    What I know is that the public and players have never been allowed to see total revenues and expenditures from each team. All we have been given is leaguewide figures and claims of losses.
    You and others have taken those claims as fact. I have not. Instead what I have provided is a complete picture of how much revenue owners receive. Basically 50 percent of all revenue right now with the current deal. Until we know the expenses no one knows whether they are making money or losing money as a collective and strangely the league had refused to make this figures public.
    You are one quoting loss figures as if they are fact because a man employed by one of the parties in this dispute says they are. That is beyond asinine and naive. It is mind numbing.

  • JP Newton

    Can’t we all just get along ….

  • andy

    @cubicle worker
    assuming you own the team and it is running as a loss you can claim that loss against your tax repayment.
    if the tax you have to pay is x and the loss on the team is y the tax you pay is x – y.
    then they can also claim depreciation on the assets they own like scoreboards and other facilities.
    @nbk if contracts are shorter in length it gives players more opportunity to re negotiate. if you are good you will get paid.. period.
    there are really no good guys in this situation just bad and worse

  • JP Newton

    @andy agreed wholeheartedly. @cubicle worker owners also claim losses on players when they do not perform. its called a Roster Depreciation Allowance.
    http://deadspin.com/5816870/exclusive-how-and-why-an-nba-team-makes-a-7-million-profit-look-like-a-28-million-loss

  • zach

    What’s so bad about wanting to be paid fairly? The owners already make more off of the players than the players make off of themselves. Now they want to make even more because they badly mismanaged their own funds. The owner made bad decisions and lost money. Why should the players have to subsidize the owner’s mistakes?

  • CubicleWorker

    You guys realize that I’m a recent university graduate in accounting working for the largest accounting firm in the world right? @andy, I’m in Canada so I don’t know what the exact figures are for the US but say you lose $10M/year and the tax rate is 33%, if you had income from other sources you would then save $3.3M in taxes paid. $10M-$3.3M still equals $6.7M loss. @allenp, jpnewton et al. I read a couple months ago that the league HAS showed the PU financials for individual teams, that’s where everybody got the “roster depreciation allowance” which goes hand in hand with your argument that “the players make the league, are the product” etc.
    @seriousblack, nobody has ever disputed that Jerry Buss isn’t making coin each year. Don’t rationalize your entire argument around an outlier. I’ve even stated at the top of this thread that players can go to Europe… for 20% of the NBA pay and worse living conditions.

    Finally, with the exception of a handful of players is the NBA really made up of individuals?? Are the 4th-15th players of each line up basically interchangeable? The NBA is the product people pay for, DWade/LBJ, Kobe etc etc are a part of it but the NBA can still thrive without those names. The NBA can especially thrive without anybody not in the top 20.

  • CubicleWorker

    Zach, picture if you moved into a new house and signed a one year lease. After a year you realize that you can’t afford to live in that house anymore, you’d have to move to a less expensive one or negotiate a deal with the landlords to decrease the rent. That’s basically a very, very basic version of what’s happening here… except for picture the landlord (the players) only really have one tenant (the NBA) that can afford the rent (picture the house as the league). At the same time you (the owners) really like the house (the league/players etc) and don’t really want to move. Both sides need each other and its a matter of finding a compromise. At some point though the rent becomes too expensive and it’s not economically feasible to live at that house.

  • golakeshow

    Dennis Rodman needs a f@#king Penis. Players FTW

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    CubicleWorker your missing the core of the issue altogether, the Owners get to review the business they are buying into, the company has grown since they bought in (despite what has happened in the economy around them). When you make a bad decision, like start a business, and it doesn’t work, do you go back to the people you agreed to pay money and say “hey I know I said I could afford this, but I can’t, and no, I can’t tell you why, but you have to believe me when I say, you have to do your job for less money” this isn’t real estate, there was no NBA related market crash that depreciated the market. Did some owners overpay? Yes they did, should the players get punished for it? I guess that is the difference between our opinions. I hold people responsible for their terrible decisions, while you think punishing someone else, patting the owners on the bum, say “try again, but this time we will restrict player rights to keep you from knocking yourself down again” is the right course of action. Because we need to protect the filthy rich, from the just rich. The American Way

  • seriousblack

    Cubicleworker: Accountant or not, you’re wrong on this one. “The NBA is the product people pay for, DWade/LBJ, Kobe etc etc are a part of it but the NBA can still thrive without those names. The NBA can especially thrive without anybody not in the top 20.” Me using an individual’s name wasn’t cue for you to start arguing a point nobody was trying to make. I wasn’t just talking about superstars. When I said the league cannot survive without the players I meant ALL players. That’s the bottom line. I used Kobe as an example of a player, not just representing “superstars”. Players have options, no matter how limited they are. The owners make ALL of their NBA money off of the images of the members of the union. The players may prefer/want the NBA as a source of basketball income, but the league NEEDS the players to even exist. Period. The players have a right to fair compensation since the whole damn business is based on them, superstars and benchwarmers alike. That’s what you don’t get… Btw, your analogy to zach made zero sense. The relationships between the two pairs of subjects you’re comparing have to actually be the same in order for the analogy to work. For example: college:professor as hospital:doctor; puppy:dog as cub:bear. Tenants:landlords as NBA owners:NBA players? I don’t think so. Plus your analogy wasn’t even plausible. What tenant would be bold enough to ask the landlord to lower the rent at all, let alone after they signed a lease? You’re reaching in your effort to defend irresponsible, greedy billionaires.

  • http://twitter.com/BeezKneezy LA Huey

    My point about the owners getting money from renting their arenas for concerts and the like was lost on some. While I don’t think that revenue should be included in the BRI they split with the players, I think it’s dishonest if they do not factor that into whether or not their NBA business was profitable or not. The fact is most of these guys wouldn’t have their arena if it wasn’t for the fact they had owned NBA team. I feel like what the owners are demanding is far more than fair. I feel like a 53-47 split (in the players favor), reduction of contract length by 1-2 years, leaving the team-by-team cap as is, leaving the luxury tax as is, and lowering the MLE by about 25% should be fair to both sides.

  • Jared

    help!

  • Waskito

    Guys, thanks for the enlightenment . For the last 20 years I am following NBA, I thought I was the expert in all aspect of nba. I knew where mj married Juanita ( a chapel in Vegas), his shoes number (13), that d Robinson, was a straight a student, and play saxophone. I Thomas conspire to not gave a young man named mj the ball in mj first all star, and of course how clumsy/ akward shawn Bradley was….etc. But with this lock out and all your comment, now I know about the league financial situational, the dynamic in it and why it is not easy to just split those hundreds million dollars between the related party, and everybody will be a happy person.
    Just hope the game will started soon, and I will see/hear another heat excuses for not winning the championship.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Not sure what your bonafides as an accountant mean to this discussion.
    But, again, YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH TEAMS ARE MAKING OR LOSING.
    None.
    Yet, you have argued for weeks that they are losing money. That doesn’t make sense. Your own basis for this claim is David Stern. Who works for the owners.
    The teams released audit reports to players. The players have disputed those figures and requested the RAW DATA on revenues and expenditures.
    More importantly, Stern has NEVER released that information to the public, citing the league’s privacy.
    My contention is that if the public had a better sense of how much each team spends on everything, people would be making more informed decisions on how much of the problem is player salary, and how much is poor management.
    After all, according to the revenue information released by the NBA, the League has shows an increase in revenues for the past 16 years, and that increase has been right about 4 percent annually.
    A 4 percent increase in revenue is very healthy for any business, particularly over the course of 16 years. Unless the League can provide information that shows a similar, or greater increase in expenses over the same period, it’s idiotic to assume that they are losing money.
    So tell me sir, why do you assume the League owners have been honest about their losses and the cause of those losses, despite the fact that they pushed for the current collective bargaining agreement in 1999 and only wanted to tweak it in 2005?
    Yes, the economy has tanked, but NBA REVENUES HAVE INCREASED! You can’t blame your struggles on the economy when your business is consistently making more money every single year. Not unless you show that your costs have skyrocketed, and then you need to show WHY since your biggest cost, player salaries, is a constant percentage of all revenues.
    That is common sense.

  • CubicleWorker

    4% revenue growth is extremely marginal for a business. Consider that inflation is around 4% annually too that means they’re expenses increase at the same rate as growth. I’m at work so I don’t have time to check the average player salary growth but if it’s larger than 4% that alone can explain increasing losses. In a post about a month ago (in the same thread where you copied/pasted items included in BRI) i detailed a list of expenses incurred when running a basketball team. The headline was Billy Hunter something. When you look at the list of expenses I outlined plus Roster Depreciation Allowance (the NBA’s version of the concept of amortization which is a standard business expense) it’s not hard to see why there isn’t much (if any) left over. Common sense can show you that the owners don’t pocket $2B/annum.

    Also any reports from the NBA would be audited by a big 4 auditing firm. An audit from one of those four companies ensures the reports are about as reliable as you can get. It’s not just what Stern says on a whim, independent professionals sign off their name about the reliability of these reports. That’s why I have more trust in what the owners are saying.

  • CubicleWorker

    Finally I dont think a 50/50 split of BRI with 4-5 year guarantee contract lengths represents players getting hosed…

  • https://plus.google.com/photos/106403650426394352312/albums/posts davidR
  • Dayne

    Most people seem to agree the problem is that the owners need to be more disciplined when offering contracts and stop overpaying. The players and the owners agree that this is a large part of the problem.

    The difference is that the owners want to do something about it, while the players do not.

    Oh, the players will ‘settle’ on a host of issues, offer concessions on contract length, etc., but they absolutely will not let the owners have is the one thing that would actually solve the problem: a hard salary cap.

    Look, human beings respond very strongly to incentive and disincentive, fear of loss, etc… Frankly, you could make the luxury tax $25 for every dollar over the cap, and teams would still pay up to land a top 5 star.

    And they would be right to do it. How often are these players available? Every six years or so? What bothers me as well is that the players seem OK with the same 4 or 5 franchises winning it all the time…because it means more money for them. They have no problem with a lack of competitive balance so long as they can get larger contracts and more money.

    The difference is that the owners want to do something about it, while the players do not. Oh, and in return for a hard cap, the owners would be REQUIRED to adopt meaningful revenue sharing, so small market teams and large ones have a more level playing field.

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