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Saturday, May 19th, 2012 at 2:16 pm  |  268 responses

Kobe on Critics: ‘I Don’t Play For Your [Expletive] Approval’


by Ryne Nelson / @slaman10

Kobe Bryant knows who he is. He knows what he does. And he doesn’t give a damn about the rest.

After Bryant’s clutch Game 3, Mamba, in so few words, told Yahoo! he doesn’t care much of his critics:

“I don’t give a [expletive] what you say,” Bryant told Yahoo! Sports late Friday. “If I go out there and miss game winners, and people say, ‘Kobe choked, or Kobe is seven for whatever in pressure situations.’ Well, [expletive] you.

“Because I don’t play for your [expletive] approval. I play for my own love and enjoyment of the game. And to win. That’s what I play for. Most of the time, when guys feel the pressure, they’re worried about what people might say about them. I don’t have that fear, and it enables me to forget bad plays and to take shots and play my game.”

Like all the greats, Kobe has the mental part of the game figured out. The Lakers may play in Hollywood, but winning Championships is real.

Good riddance to the Enigma.

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  • http://www,slamonline.com S-Mills

    Just Kobe being Kobe.

  • tomtom

    Top 3 all time weather you like him or not. Take note! Because no about of lame Denver jokes, quoting shot attempts or how he has slowed down will ever change how great this guy is. I hate sounding like a screaming girl at a Bieber concert but i can’t help it, we are all privileged to have been able to see him do his thing.

  • Scalabrine for MVP

    Kobe is a boss when it comes to handling idiots. Reminds me of Lakeshow

  • Jay cutler

    So let me get this straight. Aside from mythology, stats empirically show he has actually been hurting his team in playoff clutch moments (contrary to what his slurpers say). The response by Kobe and his fans is to blame the messenger for “hating” and not the message).

    And *of course* he’s going out there with no shooting conscience. He’s having the least efficient season of his entire career and yet he’s leading the lead in shot attempts by a wide margin. when you’re shooting 6 for 20s and 9 for 25s
    and your name is mike Miller people say, “settle down. You might be hurting your team with your style of play currently”. If your name is Kobe then you’re a hero to be admired for not giving an f what anyone thinks and doing things on your terms.

    Even if you think it’s justified, at least admit that Kobe gets a massive pass for things that would get other players excoriated and that, adjusted for shot attempts per game, his offensive performances have been terrible. That’s not hating.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Royal

    He is not top three all- time C’mon bro….You could argue he is top ten

  • Scott

    Scalabrine is an online groupie lmfaooooo

  • Da-Meat-Hook

    Maybe tomtom was talking bout shooting guards?

  • shutup

    Its hard to put him in the top 5 all-time. Lebron needs to take note. I don’t even like Kobe like that but this sh!t right here, nothing but respect.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Red

    Lol I like Kobe but he is NOT tOp 3, especially not when they’ll look back and see how bad he was this season.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Red

    I got Clyde Drexler over Kobe at SG.

  • tomtom

    I can argue top 3. So would many others. It’s all matter of opinion, i’m actually mad at myself for getting swept up and bringing it up, i’m not a fan of such a meaningless argument. @jaycutler Please. Give it up. Hating on Kobe (or anyone for that matter) just makes you look like someone with nothing better to do.

  • Dankenstein

    Kobe isn’t better than Jordan, Magic, or Bird so there goes the top 3 ranking.

  • shutup

    You should be mad you made such a stupid statement…so who is he better than? MJ, KAJ, Russel or Wilt?

  • http://Www.imdb.com TheBigL

    @jaycutler You. Really. Don’t. Know.

  • JRSD

    Clyde Drexler over Kobe.What a FUCKING JOKE.We are talking about a player who only got his ring at the end of his career in Houston because he joined a loaded Rockets team with Dream in his prim playing at his best and Jordan was on his 1st retirement playing minor league baseball.Try again Red with your idiotic comments.

  • tomtom

    @shutup..my point. proven.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Red

    How is he hating? Lol I like Kobe but he’s sucked this season. And damn sure isn’t top 3 all time, stop it B.

  • shutup

    not really, you made a illogical statement with no basis in reality its not even an arguement. out of the four I named pick one that Kobe is better than, and that would still only put him at 4 and whatever criteria you take that one out with the other defy it, you see the logic.

  • http://slamonline.com badnewsballer

    @red not top 3 all time cuz of this season??? Wtf! So if he had a good season this year he would def be top 3 huh? Fail!! Drexler over Kobe? Get out of here bro

  • shutup

    and that is only if you wanna argue he’s better than Oscar Robertson, Tim Duncan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Shaq; do you see my point?

  • everynowhere

    This is why I like kobe, yes he is INCREDIBLY overrated but he DGAF

  • IamYOU

    I don’t agree on what kobe say on every interview but this, damn I approve this [expletive] statement!

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    NBA Analyst have put Kobe over Tim, Oscar, and Larry already. Magic Johnson has called him the Greatest Laker. BOOK IT!!

  • http://slamonline.com Datkid

    lmaoooo @ this entire article… and top 3 of all time? you must be on meth.

  • INFINITELY

    Love him or hate him, you have GOTTA respect that mentality.
    2nd best SG of all time, behind MJ and in front of “Clyde The Glide”, in my opinion.

  • http://www.borntocompete.com Money$hot

    People talk shit about Kobe and Lebron, but the fact is there both great players! Lebron is a better all around player, and Kobe is a better scorer amd clutch player who happens to be a 5 time champion . And different players just approach the game differently, so I can’t see why anybody would have a problem the way he answers those questions

  • los

    The hell with top 3, by the end of his career and at least 1 more championship
    will be known as the GOAT even over jordan!!

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Oh lawd….

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com Off The Backboard

    Quotes like these are a big reason I like Kobe and why the league will really miss him when he retires.

    And you know he’s not just hamming it up for reporters. Last night during crunch time with the Lakers needing a bucket, he missed two straight shots on post-ups, and then asked for the ball a THIRD time and got to the line. That’s someone who wants to win and is not afraid of the moment. Sure, it doesn’t always go his way, but he wants the glory and the criticism and everything else. That takes some f*cking balls. You contrast that to Lebron’s game against the Pacers when he passed it off to Wade and Battier to set it up when they needed a score and you can pinpoint the difference between these players. Wade is actually similar to Bryant in having that strong mentality.

  • Luis

    Red you’re dumb clyde over kobe idiot kobe top 3 all time i say Mike Larry n kobe

  • http://www.slamonline.com Red

    Kobe top 3? Yeah you lose credibility already, the greatest Laker ever was Kareem. But yeah, I like Clyde’s game more but to me it’s close between the 2. But Kobe isn’t top 3 with no doubt at all.

  • http://www.facebook.com/joe.l.brewer3 BlackPhantom

    Kobe is not Top 3. He’s Top 10.

  • jay cutler

    @TheBigL,

    You disagree that Kobe is having one of his worst seasons in terms of efficiency?

  • real

    KOBE is 2nd to MJ, dont hate!!!!

  • real

    IF U THINK KOBE AIN’T TOP 5 PLAYER OF ALL TIME, THEN U DONT KNOW OR UNDERSTAND BASKETBALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • shutup

    there are points to be made that everyone I mentioned is better than Kobe, but top 4 whatever your order does not include Kobe by any stretch of the imagination, unless of course your wearing Kobe as a hat and using his balls to block out the sun. Book that!!

  • bill

    Too bad Lebron is too cool to say the same thing to his haters

  • Dungeon Family

    @shutup why you so worried about Kobe? If you Hate him why the hell did you even click on the article?………

    A Real Hater would IGNORE someone they Hate

  • shutup

    lmao I don’t hate Kobe. I clicked on the article because I felt like clicking on the article. But thinking Kobe is top 3 makes you a slurper in my humble opinion. Like I said earlier I respect his drive and this answer is what more of the players in the NBA need, like Lebron and Dwight Howard.

  • robb

    take some notes Bron

  • buschfire

    Kobe top 3??? lol you must be from LA. I would argue top ten no doubt but top 3 is just idiotic.

  • http://nba.com GP23

    No way was Clyde Drexler are better 2 guard than Kobe.. my goodness !!

  • lakernation

    Kobe is only second to MJ…… He has too many accolades to be behind Clyde drexler! Dude scored 81 points in our era. Nuff said.

  • shutup

    ^ you mean as a two guard right?

  • Cheema

    Kobe ain`t even top 10 alltime! U guys stupid to call him top 3 alltime? smh

  • http://slamonline.com Brad Long

    Maybe the previous 30 posters didn’t read the article. “Honey Badger/Black Mamba don’t care!”.

  • Da-Meat-Hook

    Kobe’s somewhere in the top 9-12. How are people talking bout top 3?!I think Derexler was a more willing passer and better at padding the fantasy-stats, but Clyde was NOT a better player than Kobe.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Alright, my good brethren. I’ll show ya’ how to do it…
    1. Joe Bryant Jr. is indeed better than our guy Clyde. Not even up for debate. In my opinion.
    2. Bean is #2 all time. Amongst shooting guards. In my opinion.
    3. Ol’ Kobe is top 25 all time. Amongst all players. In my opinion.
    4. Out of context, but, SLAM is the Greatest Site in the History of Existence… (not an opinion. FACT)
    Peace.

  • niletruth

    it has been great watching coby bryant over the years. he has a passion for the game has worked hard on improving his skill sets, always give you his best effort, is exciting to watch, plays hurt, and is a proven winner. He does have some issues, but Kobe has been great for the NBA and he will be remembered by most as someone who gave all he had, every game, whether or not he had a good game. He will and should receive a standing ovation at the final buzzer of each final game game at each arena, the year he announces he will retire.

  • Sean B

    Anyone that thinks Drexler is second best SG of all time is on drugs.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    NBA legends, players, analyst have Kobe top 7 and some top 5. These are players who played against him and legends who understand game. To act like Kobe accomplishments as a guard are not top 7 all time is straight ludicrous in today’s NBA. Kobe was named the player of the Decade over Shaq and Tim Duncan by SI and many other credible sites and magazines. Kobe can be named player of this decade with two more rings. Dude has been balling for 16 years and is still double teamed on the regular and is the most feared player in the NBA. Can any other player in NBA History say that after 16 years. BOOK IT!!

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    *”I’ll show ya’ how to do it”* was in a Ric Flair voice. lol

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    @The Seed:
    Respect.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Let me shout out The Seed on more time.
    I’ve never seen a commentor on this site ride with their guy harder than The Seed.
    BOOK IT!!

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    ^^^LOL

  • jose

    Not a Kobe fan. . . .but i like what he did there. lol Tell it like it is Kobe Bean

  • Heals

    shutup jus swatting flies…

  • shutup

    I’ve looked around and generally see Kobe listed as low as #7 and as high as #9 some people also have Duncan as high as #4.generally top 5 goes MJ,KAJ,Russell,Wilt,Magic, Bird, then shuffle in Duncan, Shaq, Kobe,Big O, Dr.J and some have Olajuwan. That being said he falls between 7-9. and lets not act like SI isnt just a popularity contest. Lets not forget the Lakers drop off when Shaq left, if it wasnt for the Pau shifty deal we wouldn’t be talking about Kobe in the top ten.

  • http://IGoHardNow.com BrandonBombay

    Love it!
    Only knock on Kobe, for me, through his career has been his inability to be human. Always communicating through very guarded quotes.
    Kobe puts the media on Ether!

    Dunno, why SLAM had to take a shot at my man ‘Enigmatic’ though.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @shutup
    Are you serious, Duncan is not over Kobe, man you must be viewing dimemag.com. Also Kobe losing Shaq and winning with soft Pau speaks to his greatness going to 3 straight NBA Finals. Also so Bird and Magic and MJ playing with Hall of Famers, didn’t matter either right, none of them had drop off right. Come on. Kobe won a ring with Pau and you acting like he is great and with Memphis Pau did nothing. Guess what, Pau plays with Kobe and he is considered one of the best skilled big man. Haters will hate and Kobe is over Bird and equal to Magic. Bird played with 3 or 4 HoFamers and Magic played with 3 or 4 HoFamers. Kobe has played with 1 and maybe 1 in Pau- is borderline with NBA career. BOOK IT!!

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Jordan, Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Duncan, Bird, Shaq, Oscar, then you could arguably stick Kobe here. So I’ll assert Kobe is out of the top 10. Come at me bros.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    ^^^or Shaq. BOOK IT!!

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    1MJ, 2Kareem, 3Wilt, 4Russell, 5Magic, 6Kobe, 7Bird, 8Oscar, 9Duncan, 10Hakeem, 11Shaq.

    7Bird was great, by lets be honest he had ALOT of Help, but 7 is not bad for him.
    8Oscar averaged a trip double, but played in an era, where is talent was very unique and he took full advantage of it.
    9Duncan is one of the greatest power forwards ever, but really he is not over anybody considering his drop off and production.
    10Hakeem was great, but how many years was he truly a great center in the NBA. I know.
    11Shag was great, but he underachieved in his career. Shaq was truly dominate for 5 to 6 years in the NBA. Since Shaq did not keep his body in great shape and he Fell off bad.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Duncan’s drop off in production? Is that why he has more win shares/48 this year than Kobe? Or that his PER was higher than Kobe this year? Or that his offensive rating was higher than Kobe this year? Or that his TS% and EF% were both higher than Kobe’s this yea? Seed, this is why no one takes you seriously: you argue without looking at any facts and simply saying whatever ESPN highlights have told you to think. In 10 years, you’ll be arguing that Kobe is the best Laker of all time.

  • shutup

    you must not remember how bad the Lakers were before they got Pau and yes Duncan is >than Kobe. More Finals MVP’s and he has had the best winning percentage of any player since he’s been in the league drop off in production? I think wins are the product that a player should be producing and no one does it better than TD. His team is consistently at the top despite a revolving door of overachieving role players and second round picks. I’ll take your list 1-5 then go Duncan Shaq then Kobe.

  • http://dwightfreeney.com Scalabrine for MVP

    how is kobe having a bad season? second in NBA is scoring. all star starter. third seed in the sest. GOAT

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @Caboose
    Magic has already stated Kobe is best Laker of all time and go to latimes.com and research it. Also Duncan has fell off, Spurs win are not specifically predicated to him now. The Spurs is Tony Parker’s team now and he was MVP of the NBA, if you check the stats, like you say I don’t. Also Caboose you putting Hakeem over Kobe, lost you all credibility as having Basketball knowledge, you just Hating.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    shutup: You gotta have Hakeem higher than Kobe. Hakeem single-handedly pushed a team to a ring. Kobe could never come close to that.

  • http://dwightfreeney.com Scalabrine for MVP

    *SECOND IN NBA IN SCORING. STUPID AUTOCORRECT ALSO THIRD SEED IN THE WEST

  • shutup

    and now its soft Pau, people kill me with that sh!t, those two chips don’t happen without Pau. Look at this years playoffs when Pau doesn’t play well the Lakers lose, he saved the Lakers from Denver bouncing that @ss

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    You’re using Magic Johnson’s opinion as fact? So you also think Bynum is better than Howard, the Celtics will make the Finals easily, and Scottie Pippen is better than Hakeem? Yeah, that’s who you’ve got on your side. And Seed, hate to break it to you, but Tim Duncan had the same win shares per 48 minutes that Parker did this year. So nice stat checking. Here’s what I can tell you: Bynum and Pau both had higher win shares per 48 this year than Kobe. So what does that tell you? I think you’re smart enough to figure that out, but given your track record, I’m not sure.

  • shutup

    I do personally prefer Hakeem to Kobe but The Dream only won two so its hard for me to put him higher than Kobe. I absolutely prefer him as a player. I don’t see a drop off, have you been watching the playoffs? Duncan is putting on a clinic.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Caboose, so every player on your list single-handedly pushed a team to a ring. I can ARGUE KOBE won two rings with way LESS than an other player you have over Kobe with Pau and Bynum as you next two best players on your team. BOOK IT!!

  • shutup

    I do have to point out though this discussion started with someone saying top-3 but from what I’ve seen even the die-hardest of Kobe supporters (lookin at you Seed) have trouble crackin the top-5 with him. Like I said earlier Duncan and Kobe and Shaq is at least a discussion, but trying to force Kobe in the top-3 is delusional.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @shutup
    Spurs have not played a real team yet. Spurs are lucky they didn’t see Memphis like last year and Lakers/OKC will put Spurs out and yall can talk about Duncan win share percentage next year. Thanks for the win share information, it has given Duncan 10 rings in his career. Thanks

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    You’re changing the argument buddy. That means you concede that Duncan is superior to Kobe. Nice job there. I am a big fan of Hakeem, but I think what we should focus on is Duncan vs. Kobe. I have stats, facts, and reason on my side, what is your counter? If you say the word clutch I will chuckle and walk away.

  • shutup

    so now two legit starting scoring 7-footers (both top 10 first round picks)is a knock on a team. So how is that Duncan wins with Manu and TP (both 2nd round picks)and in your mind Duncan hasn’t done it with less? and you cant use Pop as an excuse because the Lakers had Phil Jackson

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @shutup
    Kobe has to win one or more rings to jump Magic, He is under 1MJ, 2Kareem, 3Wilt, 4Russell, 5Magic, but Kobe career is far from over. Kobe will be the All Time leading scorer in NBA playoff history and has a chance to be NBA all time leading scorer. You never know. I have Kobe at 6 now, but stay tuned. BOOK IT!!

  • shutup

    The Spurs were hurt last year and would have mopped Denver, and would have taken Memphis out in 5 (the Spurs are deeper and healthier than they have ever been)

  • http://slam FLIGHT 9

    SPURS WILL WIN!!!!

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    So Seed just says stuff now because he can? Ok. Chris Webber is the best power forward of all time! I know, I saw him in person, and man, the crowd got behind him, he could pass so well, he had perfect hands, and a scorer’s mentality. I mean, how can you not have him as the best? Book it!

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Consider the list of players that have won at least 5 championships and 2 Finals MVPs. This list includes just 4 players: Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Kobe Bryant. Michael, of course, excelled at nearly every facet of the game. Magic was probably the best playmaker in NBA history and was able to shine at all 5 positions on the floor. Kareem is the league’s all-time scorer whose consistent hook shot was the most unstoppable shot. While most people consider these 3 players to be in the top 5 of all-time, Kobe’s game merits an inclusion with them.
    Defense

    Bryant has been named to the All-NBA Defensive team 10 times in his career, including 8 times on the first team. The only other players that can match these numbers are Scottie Pippen, Kevin Garnett, and Tim Duncan. Gary Payton and Michael Jordan can also be considered, each making the team 9 times all being on the first team. Unlike Pippen, Garnett, and Payton, Kobe has proven to be a more potent scorer and has led his team to championships. Similar to Duncan and Jordan, Bryant has been able to inspire other teammates to play hard on defense. It’s of particular note that Lebron James accredited turning around his defensive abilities to studying Bryant on the 2008 Olympic squad.

    In comparison to other all-time greats, this is one area that separates Kobe from players like Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Oscar Robertson. In his ability to shut-down the best players on opposing teams, Kobe Bryant has to be considered one of the best defenders of all-time.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    NBA pundits like Bill Simmons are quick to let their Kobe hatred show by pointing out Kobe’s 6-24 shooting performance in game 7 of this year’s Finals, while conveniently forgetting about key playmaking, pulling down 15 huge rebounds, and shutting down the Celtic’s best player in Rajon Rondo. Even more telling is the double standard applied to Kobe. Magic and Bird had their fair share of playoff lapses in key Finals games. In addition, Jordan had a closeout game of 14 points against the Celtics in 1986 (including 4 points in the second half), and another in the Finals shooting 5-19. Everyone remembers him hitting the game winner in 1998 to close out Utah, but few remember that Jordan missed 20 shots in that game and only had a total of 1 rebound and 1 assist. Every superstar has bad games, even in deciding games. The difference is that the best players find a way to will their team to victory.

    Additionally, there’s a reason that in each of the past few years, over 90% of NBA GMs have declared Kobe to be the best clutch player. With Kobe hitting 7 game winners last season, he only gave further justification to these opinions. But the telling moment was in the gold medal game of the 2008 Olympics. When Spain was threatening to steal the gold medal from Team USA, it was Bryant who stepped up and made the clutch plays in the second half to lead the team to victory. It doesn’t matter what some stats sites say; it is more telling that on a team with other clutch superstars such as Carmelo Anthony, Dwyane Wade, and Lebron James, Kobe was the one who stepped up.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Did you copy and paste that from the Lakers website?

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    As one of the hardest workers in the game with a legendary conditioning routine, Kobe has lasted in the league longer than many of the all-time legends. His footwork and mid-range game may be the best ever next to Jordan. Compared to Magic and Jordan, Kobe has proven to be a better outside shooter, evidenced by hitting multiple 3 point game winners and holding the NBA record for most 3 pointers made in a game (12). Some NBA pundits are quick to point out that Kobe played second fiddle to Shaq during the first 3 championship runs, but this is not entirely accurate. While Shaq was the clear leader in 2000, he never would have come close to winning without Kobe. In 2001 and 2002, Kobe was more like an option 1A (think of him playing Magic Johnson along with Jordan versus playing Pippen). This can be seen by his all-around brilliant play in the 2001 playoffs with Jordan-like averages of 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, and 6.1 apg.

    Fact is, Kobe Bryant is a proven winner. The only season he didn’t make the playoffs in 2004-2005 was a rebuilding year for the Lakers, where their second best player was an inconsistent Lamar Odom. Odom missed 18 games and LA was still in a position to make the playoffs until Kobe went down with an injury during the last 15 games.

    Over the past few years, Kobe has shined despite playing with bad ankles, knees, and broken fingers, including the index finger on his shooting hand. These nagging injuries are things that Jordan never had to deal with. Kobe should be given credit for continuing to dominate despite having some serious injuries.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    While players like Bird, Jordan, Magic, and Kobe could have played well back in the early decades of the NBA, it is unlikely that Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain would have dominated in the same way today. For being taller than many early centers and with superior athletic ability, Russell had a mediocre offensive game with horrible field goal and free throw percentages. He is the game’s greatest winner, but he also had a team full of Hall of Famers that clearly outmatched any other team. At 6-9 and 230 pounds, he would be a power forward at best today and would be challenged to not foul out against players such as Shaq in his prime. Today, he might be considered a superior version of Ben Wallace.

    Wilt Chamberlain had less of an offensive repertoire than centers such as Olajuwon, Ewing, David Robinson, and Shaq. The first time he had to play against a superstar 7-foot center in Kareem, he self-admittedly struggled. Most likely Wilt would still be one of the game’s best today, but with averages closer to 25 ppg and 12 rpg. In considering all-around ability, it is hard to justify Wilt and Russell as clearly being ahead of Bryant.

  • shutup

    so what happens if TD wins another ring this year? also TD has 3 finals MVP’s to Kobe’s 2. Also Duncan is only the fourth player in NBA history to scored 20,000 points with 10,000 rebounds, 2,000 blocks and 2,500 assists (alongside Kareem, Hakeem and Shaq)
    You lost me with that Kobe one of the best defenders of all-time talk though. Tim Duncan is twice the defender Kobe ever was, a consummate 1st and 2nd all-nba defensive talent his whole career.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed
  • shutup

    lmao, was that like your thesis or something? wow.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Shutup, we have to give up man. Seed doesn’t understand the difference between subjective opinion and objective fact. Seed, listen, if you’re some freshman in high school who really likes the Lakers, I apologize. Feel free to think Kobe is top 5 or whatever. And continue to post other people’s works and call it your own, that’s ok of you’re a kid. But this is a grown up site where we like to have intelligent discussions and frankly, you’re dragging us down. But, if in fact you are just a biased fan boy who doesn’t actually follow the game or understand the process of debate or logic, I apologize and you should by all means continue to hold on to your yellow colored opinions.

  • shutup

    since you wanna copy and paste 2001-02 when he scored 25.5 points per game, Duncan has always averaged between 18 and 24 points per game. The Spurs have been good for 53-63 wins in each of his seasons (save for the 1998-99 season that was cut short with the lockout). He’s won four championships, been named MVP of the Finals three times and earned league MVP honors twice. He’s the first player in NBA history to be named All-NBA and All-Defensive teams in each of his first 12 seasons.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    I have put the website that I got the information from, waiting for Slam to show it. Read and understand Cabooisty. Thanks

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    If yall really think Duncan is over Kobe, I am wasting my time. Win Share percentage, really. Duncan even knows Kobe is a better player all time than him, LOOK IT UP. I would paste it, but that’s enough for one night. Also look at the number Kobe put on the Spurs during those years, WOW he killed the Spurs. GO LAKERS.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Seed, there is no regular here (nbk, shutup, Allen, Enig, Eboy, Diesel, Jukai, Darksaber, Orange, bull22, and myself) who takes you seriously. Why do you think that is?

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    OK, if you take all those people seriously that’s your choice, I gave you my point and you stated some dumb stuff cat. That’s all you can say. I can argue my point, like I just did cat. Everything I wrote is truth and don’t EVER, EVER put Hakeem over Kobe in all time players. You lose all creditability with folks. Just saying

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Seed, do you really want me to pick apart EVERYTHING you said? I have the complete capability, it would just require a bit of time. And look dude, you’re biased. And obvious about it. Do you really want me to make you look stupid?

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    You made yourself look stupid already, by having Hakeem over Kobe. Bro, you do what you want, but to you win-share percentage is a great stat for Duncan. You probably a Clipper or Wolves fan and don’t have a favorite player, but watch NBA games online. Its cool cat, you like Duncan and I am very happy for you and don;t care, but if you think Kobe has not done anything in his career and is still balling like tonight after 16 years and not top 7 in NBA History you are straight STUPID. I will STUPID BOOK YOU. I am about to watch game, Lakers win. BOOK THAT!!

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    As I’ve earlier stated, NOBODY rides with their guy harder than our brother, The Seed.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Ok Seed, let’s do this. You are insufferable and I want you to recognize your place as nothing more than a hopeless fanboy.
    1. You have created strange categories that lump together Kobe and all-time greats. Yes, Kobe has career achievements, but watch, random categories can be created that exclude Kobe. Only Jordan, Oscar, Bron, and Tyreke have averaged 20-5-5 as rookies. Only Bird, Jordan, Magic, LeBron, Kareem, Moses, Russell, and Wilt have 3 or more MVP’s. See? Creating arbitrary categories does not constitute an effective argument.
    2. Did you really use All-NBA Defensive Teams to prove Kobe is an elite defender? See, this is where you rely on subjective evidence again. Me, I prefer stats, specifically the one that says that Magic Johnson and Larry Bird both have about the same DRtg as Kobe as well as both averaging more steals and blocks for their career. And nice job picking Oscar, a player who has no defensive stats recorded for him. Idiot.
    3. Nobody is using Kobe’s ONE GAME to prove he’s not an elite player. He absolutely is, but his inefficiency stretches far beyond just one game. Look at his shooting percentages and his shot attempts: he is inefficient. This is undeniable. Has he come up clutch in big games? Of course. He’s also fallen short, just like every player has. This is a moot point, seeing as it means nothing to the overall view of a player’s legacy.
    4. Ok, more subjective evidence regarding Kobe being clutch. Do you even want me to pull up stats on this? Yeah, he hit 7 game winners/tiers/whatever. How many did he miss? You conveniently left that out, which is a crucial stat. Last time I checked, the amount of game winners is not nearly as important as how efficient you are with them. Take two hypothetical players, one has hit 7/25 game winners and the other is 3/6, one team has a much better win percentage than the other. And if you say he has the “courage” to take big shots, that’s pathetic.
    5. His toughness is impeccable, I will give him that.
    6. You’re really gonna argue that Kobe was equal to Shaq on those Lakers teams? That’s funny, cause those FInals MVP’s kinda say otherwise. And the year Kobe put up stats superior to Shaq (2003-04), the Lakers lost. Strange how that works, isn’t it? And for the record, Duncan has never missed the playoffs.
    7. Wait a minute, Jordan never had to deal with serious injuries? First, Kobe has never had a serious injury. Derrick Rose’s ACL, that’s a serious injury. A finger is not. And second, why did Jordan miss 64 games his second year? Oh right, a BROKEN FOOT. Pretty sure that’s a serious injury compared to a sore knee.
    8. The bit about Wilt and Russell is COMPLETELY subjective. You see that don’t you? That’s just pure conjecture dude. I could just as easily make the claim that since the center position is so weak today, Wilt could have put up even better numbers given his incredible athleticism. And since you love rings so much, Russell has 11. So shut up about that.

    So have I refuted everything? Anything left standing? No? Now be quiet you little worm, and stop spouting random dribble onto the internet.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Also, in an attempt to shut down this thread, (which, I am sure will be a practice in futility) which was wholly AND entirely entertaining;
    Magic Johnson is the Greatest Player to Ever Play in the NBA.
    1a. Jabbar
    1aa. Larry Joe Bird.
    2. Michael Jordan

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Philo…what? This is a discussion for another day but I’d love to hear your reasoning. On the whole I respect your opinion so I’ll argue sensibly and diplomatically with you, so I think that’d be fun. Deal?

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    @Caboose:
    I really appreciate that compliment. And I respect your opinion, as well. I think you are a person with sense and wisdom.
    And yeah, I’d love to debate that some day.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Wait…by “greatest” do you mean something different than “best?” Cause I remember that piece Slam ran a while back where they said Magic was the “greatest” of all time and I wholeheartedly agree.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Haha wisdom? Nah man, I’m just a 19 year old who loves the game. I used to play pretty competitively but one crippling injury later and I’m reduced to debating with dudes like Seed on the Internet here. That’s where my passion for the game comes from; if I can’t play it, I sure as hell will follow it. As far as actual wisdom, I don’t have that. I can’t. I never saw Kareem play in person or on TV, I didn’t know WIlt scored 100 in a game until about 1997, and I haven’t watched nearly as many games as a lot of people on here. The only thing I’ve got is a background in logic and debate that just lets me talk through arguments. Much thanks for the compliment though, means a lot coming from such a regular.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    19?
    A 19 year old who is wise. You are a rarity.
    A 19 year old who is wise AND humble.

  • Drig

    Kobe’s top 10 tops. Another ring and he goes to 5-8 depending on people’s opinion of Kobe. Why not be content with it?!?! You don’t see Magic fans or Bird fans going after MJ fans to prove their man is the best ever ( which is a very valid argument )or Wilt fans blow everyone off with their man’s stats now do you?!?! Anyways, @Caboose, I disagree with your opinion of Kobe vs Hakeem. Hakeem by virtue of the position he plays ALWAYS has more impact than Kobe ever can. If you stick to it, you better explain to me how Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, Shaq and Magic don’t make up the top 5 of your list. Period.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com/ O

    Damnit! Caboose is a passionate graphic designer who uses words like “forgettable.” The man can pick cologne names at will! Of course he’s wise! LOL. Ya my boy, Boose!!

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Drig, you’re cool man, I like your style, but I don’t want to defend much more tonight. My reason for Hakeem comes from defense and his title runs. I can probably be convinced to include Kobe in top 10. As a matter of fact, if I was presented with a stat based argument, I’d happily accept it. I’m nothing if not accepting to changing my opinion in the face of evidence. As of now, my mildly uneducated opinion regarding the two skews me to Hakeem. I’ll listen to a good argument if you’ve got it. And thanks again Philo.

  • Drig

    I mean, have Jordan out of the top 5. Damn man, both of us have almost the exact same list lol : Magic ( since I’m an LA fan ), Jordan, Wilt, Bird, Kareem, Russell, Duncan~Kobe, Hakeem and then Shaq/Oscar.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Hrm, I don’t like seeing Kobe ahead of Shaq, there Drig. Explanation? And thanks there O, haha cologne names? That made me chuckle.

  • Drig

    Caboose, how about we have this discussion in the off-season. All of us know that there’s a 100% chance that we’ll discuss about Kobe’s rank all-time after the season is over just like we have over the years lol. I got a solid argument for having Kobe locked in 8th on par with Duncan and slightly above Hakeem.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    I’ll procure it to the masses in short form;
    When one looks at Earvin, and what he’s done to the Game of Basketball…
    Forget about accolades.
    Forget about rings.
    Before Magic, just the idea of a man taller than a certain height even thinking of handling the basketball was blasphemy.
    After Magic, we have seen countless “big men” trying fruitlessly to remotely duplicate even a fraction of some of Johnson’s exploits.
    Without Magic, there is no… ANY of the modern big man that we see today.

  • Drig

    Kobe’s got more rings, Kobe’s had a longer career and more or less been consistent from season 4-16 so far with the blip being the ’05 season. Shaq’s last 3 seasons left a VERY BITTER taste in my mouth. Also, the fact that he only played at full throttle in the POs ( His refusal to defend the PnR cost LAL many a game in the regular season ), was gradually becoming lazy as his career progressed and last but not the least, was a liability on O in close Q4s. If this were a battle of Prime Kobe vs Prime Shaq, I’d take Shaq all day by virtue of the position he plays and the way he dominated 3.75 quarters but when you take the entire career, Shaq’s last 3 years really hurt his rep in my book. If you value his domination in his prime more than Kobe’s longevity, I can understand it.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    As transcendant to a Game as any player in any professional sport in American History.
    Magic Johnson.

  • Drig

    Elgin Baylor did similar things for the SG position yet he ain’t revered as Magic is, Philo. The sad fact is you need rings AND accolades to supplement the way you gave rise to a new generation of players to truly be an all-time legend. That’s the ONLY reason Wilt is not the top player in every list. Hell, when a C leads the L in AST, PPG, RPG, BPG, SPG, FG% and whatever whenever he wanted and had superhuman stamina, the only thing that stops him from being at the top is the rings……….FT% be damned.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Philo, I agree. Best still goest to MJ, but I’ll give greatest to Magic. He’s the reason for annoying fanboys like Seed here haha. And fair enough Drig, we’ll have the full discussion later.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    As a matter of fact, Magic changed the Game so much, that, The League began searching relentlessly for the “big point guard”, for there “HAD to be another like Magic”, right?
    Nope. For years they searched.
    The League finally gave up the pursuit, (after Isiah started winning)but The League let it be known.
    Magic WAS “that dude”.
    Magic “IS that dude”. Of all times.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    @Drig:
    Respect, but we have to be aware that, in Wilt’s day, there were 2 1/2 teams in The League.
    Guys were 5’9″ bartenders before and after games.
    And there was Wilt.
    Ahead of his time, for sure.

  • Drig

    Philo…….that’s exactly the reason why I always give his stats vs Russell……….arguably the best defensive C ever a/c to McHale ( Ive never seen enough to put my finger on their ability ) and he always DOMINATED him. 1 on 3 Wilt could’ve won. 1 on 5 all star and I don’t give a damn who you are. You’re gonna lose.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Again, those guys played when The League had 1 full time team, and part time teams when the full time teams traveled abroad… lol
    But I fee you, though.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    *feel*

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Not to be a douche, but in the whole Kobe thing…can I point to tonight’s game?

  • shutup

    Lakers lost ITS BEEN BOOKED!!! HAHAHAHA

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Hahaha oh you’re awesome, shutup.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Shout out to OKC with the brilliant win.
    It’s a wrap for my Lakers.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Red

    Well tonight showed that KD if healthy will probably be better than Kobe. Everyone will remember this.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Anyone else get the feeling that the Spurs are gonna take the Thunder in like 5 games?

  • shutup

    I don’t see the Thunder being able to compete mentally with the Spurs, they are very one dimensional and really lack good coaching. 5 games is a solid safe prediction. Why did the Lakers stop dumping it down? methinks Kobe’s failures as a player cost the Lakers this win. I see you Caboose; that post @11:44 was the most thorough dissection of an argument I’ve seen thus yet.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Dagger

    I love how when Lebron said he didn’t care about his critics because they’d have to go back to their sad lives, he was crucified for it. Just saying . . . and no, Kobe is not top 3. Obviously.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Haha thanks shutup. It was pretty fun to write. The only way I see OKC winning is if they can RUN RUN RUN. And even then, get crazy lucky on their shots. Cosign Dagger btw. Kobe fans whine about double standards for Kobe even though he gets the benefit of hypocrisy pretty often too.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Hey Kobe, u shot your team outta yet another close game. Oh what, you don’t give an eff. Sorry, forgot.
    i know Durant has had a few signature game winners (often to the detriment of my favs, the Mavs) but that shot tonight was a defining moment to me. That and the utter look of disdain he gave Artest immediately after.

  • shutup

    Yeah but the Spurs love to run too, they are one of the highest scoring offense in the NBA this year, but they have the best half-court offense in the NBA. That shot by Durant took some gorilla sized balls.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Which is why I say 5 games. And the Spurs will handle anyone from the East.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Honestly, Wilt would be like a rich man’s Dwight Howard in today’s league, I think. Better athlete, taller, slightly better post moves, about equal defense. I think in today’s league, Wilt could put up 28-17 ish numbers, especially considering the dearth of centers.

  • Maniac

    Haven’t posted here in a while, but just dropped by to throw in my two cents. A legit argument can already be made that Kobe is top 3 all-time. That is not an absurd statement at all. Look, there is no right or wrong to these lists, but CONSISTENCY must exist if the list is to have any validity. With that said, my top ten looks something like: 1. Michael Jordan, 2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 3. Kobe Bryant, 4. Bill Russell, 5. Wilt Chamberlain, 6. Magic Johnson, 7. Larry Bird, 8. Tim Duncan, 9. Shaquille O’neal, 10. Oscar Robertson.

  • Maniac

    This is basically my opinion and understanding of the top ten after years of extensive research in almost any medium possible and a lot of debate: I have a lot of respect for Oscar, but his lack of accolades really hurt his all-time ranking. At one point in time I had him as high as #2 all-time, but it would be inconsistent to rank him over guys with a ton more team success with it being a decent criterion in the ranking. Only nine guys in history as of this point deserve to be ranked over him though. I won’t get into guys like Hakeem who a lot of fans tend to overrate. I feel like LeBron snatches this spot easily with a ring.

  • Maniac

    The next four guys above him are Bird, Magic, Shaq, & Duncan. I feel like Magic and Bird being separated in any list is invalid because it’s really splitting hairs. For the first 7 years of the 80s, Larry was recognized as the better player and often considered the GOAT by many. It wasn’t until the Lakers were fully handed over to Magic because of Kareem’s inability to no longer be the focal point of the offense that he got a lot of widespread recognition as the best player in the game. The championship repeat, 3 MVPs, & Bird’s decline helped his argument, but get this: Magic and Bird faced each other 3 times in the finals… Magic won 2 of the 3 and retired with 5, while Bird retired with 3. Had the CELTICS (not Bird) beat the Lakers (not Magic) in 1985 or 1987, thus giving them both 4 rings each, then a lot of ignorant fans would not be led to foolishly believe that there’s a huge gap between the two. They are inseparable. Shaq’s and Duncan’s rivalry looks to be quite similar (Shaq was seen as the better player, but Duncan may retire with more overall success). Those two pair’s legacies are tied to one another and I just can’t see how someone can make a CONSISTENT argument that Player X is better than one, but not the other. I rank the Magic/Bird pair over the Duncan/Shaq pair because they achieved more overall, dominated the league more, and were just flat out more dynamic players (both have been argued as GOAT by many) (it probably would have helped if Shaq and Duncan were in different conferences). I would also like to note that I tend to rank the one with overall more success higher, hence Magic & Duncan.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Hey Maniac, do me a favor, read through the argument between Seed and I and tell me what evidence you have to put Kobe at #3 all time because I believe that is an absolutely ABSURD statement.

  • Maniac

    This brings me to my top 5. It consists of the three great centers and the two greatest shooting guards of all-time. First I will address the centers. At one point of my life, I believe Bill Russell to be the single greatest player ever and I still do sometimes feel that way. I probably respect him more than any other player ever. For a small amount of time I felt the same about Wilt. Here’s the thing with these two though: they are the TOTAL opposite. One cannot objectively rank either of them a solid #1 and CONSISTENTLY make a list that they would be seem “right” based on the criteria used to make either of them the GOAT. In 1980, Russell was voted the greatest by the Associated Press when they officially named the 35th anniversary All-NBA team. From the books that I have read that were written before the Magic/Bird era, most seemed to believe that either of the two was #1, and a small percentage felt the same about Oscar, but there was never a CONSISTENT way of ranking mostly because the NBA had not been around long enough to produce enough candidates. My take on it is that had Russell not existed, there is a large chance that Wilt would be the closest thing we have to an undisputed GOAT in sports (probably larger than the Jordans, Ruths, & Gretzkys) . The guy would have surely won more than the two rings he retired with and also still hold the some 130 records he has today. The Russell/Wilt argument has gone on for 50 years now and will still continue to for years to come. Like Magic & Bird, they are inseparable. If you think about it, they are two halfs to a whole. The argument against Russell is that he was not a dominant offensive player and Wilt is held to the same criticism when it comes to winning. They were seen as the CO-GOATs if you will before Mr. Jordan came along (and Kareem ended his career). In order to rank over this Russell/Wilt pair, you must not only dominate your peers in a miny-Wilt like fashion, but you must also win in like a Russell-like fashion.

  • Yesse

    Served..

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Wait, you think Kobe has dominated this era the way Wilt dominated his? That’s what your post implies and agree I can find a direct hole in your argument.

  • Maniac

    Magic, Larry, Timmy, & Shaq were/are all winners, but you could not look a basketball historian in the eye in honestly tell them that either is the best player you’ve ever seen. Outside of my big 3, no other player has been 100% flawless in their craft as far as skillsets. It’s not even worth getting into because neither was as good as Wilt. Period. (Shaq would have been had he not been so lazy). With that said, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, & Kobe Bryant are in my opinion, the 3 greatest overall basketball players of all-time. Neither of them averaged 50 a game or won 11 rings, but all 3 have accomplished a lot both with their teams and individually. All 3 can dominate a game on BOTH sides of the ball at any given time while possessing ZERO weaknesses in their skillsets outside of any maniacal obsessions of winning in the cases of Mike & Kobe. Well that’s enough lol. I’m tired of all the typing.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Maniac, that was very well written, but, no offense, fatally flawed. Your transition between each makes little sense and doesn’t distinguish why some deserve to be higher than others. What was your justification for having Kobe in that top 3 pinnacle, a “flawless game?” Dude, that’s an overarching statement that just BEGS to be picked apart. Want me to do it? I can point to field goal percentage, overall efficiency, horrible clutch stats, average assist numbers, and selfish heroics. I can give legitimate stats, but I already gave those earlier with Seed. I’m sorry, but the advanced stats for Kobe are SO far below everyone else in your top 10, it’s laughable. I just can’t have Kobe that high, considering that Shaq won 3 rings with Kobe, garnering Finals MVP over him.

  • Balls

    Kobe is 7? So I guess he knows Canto.

  • Maniac

    Ok so Caboose now that I am done, I can reply to you. Wilt is simply an anomaly. I have immense respect for him, but in-depth analysis will tell you that his domination is primarily a product of his era. I have ZERO doubt that you could pluck him into any era after the 60s and he would easily be a top 2 center (depending on which Wilt you get). When I infer that Kobe has “dominated” his era in terms of Wilt, I try to stay from relativity. As far as domination goes, NO ONE dominated his era anywhere close to the level of Wilt, statistically. Not Jordan, not anyone. As far as pure skill and production, you would be lying to yourself if you denied that Kobe is only second to Jordan in terms of scoring ability. Kobe has proved time and time again that he is the real deal. It’s not even worth naming out some of his feats. If you don’t know by now you never will. Kobe’s accolades speaks for themselves. Kobe is not Jordan. No one is, but he is BY FAR the closest and there isn’t a large gap in between them. Honestly ask yourself, what makes Jordan >>> than everyone else, but not Kobe when they are so close?

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Kobe is second only to Jordan in terms of scoring ability? Um yes, I can deny that pretty easily. You don’t actually believe that do you? FG% bro. I don’t want a lengthy debate, but I really got on to Seed for using SUBJECTIVE EVIDENCE versus using anything remotely concrete. I like things that actually carry weight aside from blanket statements that can easily be picked apart. So give me something solid and not just an opinion.

  • AQWORD

    Word to caboose ! Kobe is not top 3 & not even top 10. Also the last couple of years hes has focused more on his own scoring than he did on being a veteran leader & making his team( full of allstars)better & thats why he will never get another title or be even close to MJ. Lets ask Phil ‘osopher’ Jackson coz most of (humps here dont know the real deal. Serious.

  • Maniac

    Caboose, your response simply tells me that you didn’t read with a open mind. You clearly went in wanting to know what I had to say about Kobe just to pick it apart. Was flawless game my only reason? Kobe’s achievements stack up to almost anyone who has ever played the game. I’m not going to address silly things like overall efficiency when the greatest winner of all-time shot 44% from the field and 56% from the free throw line. “Horrible clutch stats”? Advanced statistics? Jesus Christ, if stats mattered sooooo much how about we all just stfu and crown Wilt GOAT. These dumb*** numbers didn’t even exist 10 years ago. The NBA has been around since 1947 and players, coaches, media members, fans, executives, etc… have done a pretty decent job of recognizing greatness without irrelevant numbers formulated by geeks who couldn’t make a high school basketball team. “Selfish heroics”? Lol tell that to Jordan & Bird. Please force your blindless hate to appreciate greatness because he won’t be around for too much longer.

  • shutup

    so the fact that they are opposites cancel them out from contention for top 3? that’s not logical at all, either you value one more than the other, but to not value either is just silly and then to replace them with a one trick pony. What does Kobe do besides score at an elite level?

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Hate? I’m pretty neutral to Kobe, and there is no need for insults. I asked for evidence and you insulted my style of debate. I’m sorry I prefer arguing from facts whereas you like to argue from what you think you see on TV and YouTube. Given that we argue quite differently, I know we aren’t going to come to an agreement. And I don’t blindly follow stats, I just wanted ONE good stat, and you came back with calling me a geek. Not a good look. What I will argue is that Kobe’s inefficiency is not acceptable for someone considered to be so good. And yes efficiency matters. If you disagree, and simply say that all that matters is what “you feel” and have “researched,” I’ll chuckle and walk away, agreeing to disagree.

  • AQWORD

    Fishing trip for the Lakers in 2 days – Book it!

  • Maniac

    Lol how many Jordan games have you actually watched? How about games before the 90s? You do realize that FG% is up for most perimeter players in Jordan’s era compared to Kobe’s era simply because more three pointers are shot now right? You do realize that simply ONE missed shot can be the difference in about idk… maybe Jordan’s & Kobe’s career FG%’s right? GTFOH with that man. Come on now you’re better than that. How about watch the game and stop relying on box scores and made up formulas to be your end all be all. The only subjectivity going on here is your bias. Only a completely idiot would assert that there has EVER been a scorer more deadly than Kobe, not named Michael Jordan and even that isn’t true sometimes.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    You know what Maniac, I read through everything, and your writing actually makes no sense. You start with a generality that you assume makes sense without proving it (in logic, we call it begging the question) then use that to form the rest of your points. That’s NOT a good form of argument. The ONLY substantial thing about Kobe you’ve said is that you think because he’s a lesser copy of Jordan with nowhere near the accolades or stats, he’s somehow top 3 of all time. You’ve said nothing of substance despite a whole lot of words.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Haha I realize you actually have nothing to go on. So….because Kobe is a top 5 scorer of all time (I grant that), that makes him better than people who did so much more? You’re making points off of nothing dude, I know you see that. I love how you say “watch the game” and that it isn’t subjective. That’s like saying, oh it’s raining outside but it’s not water.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    I’m going to bed, but I’ll leave you with this, see what I did to Seed’s comments? I can pick yours apart just as easily. Accept that stats can be just as, if not more, effective than your eyes, or I’ll go through and point out all the logical fallacies you eloquently glossed over.

  • Maniac

    I never insulted you. I did not call you a geek. Reading is fundamental. I called the stat gurus like Hollinger geeks. I will be glad to agree to disagree. Just try walking into a real conversation between basketball historians and get laughed out the room talking about “efficiency” lol. Tell Russell’s 11 rings about efficiency. You do know that Wilt dominated on Iverson-like true shooting “efficiency” right? How about Bird’s efficiency in the playoffs lol?. Or maybe the fact Jordan won championship clinching games with bad “efficiency”. Gtfoh. Do you really think “efficiency” had any type of relevance when Elgin Baylor was basically acknowledged as the GOAT SF until Bird came along? He shot 43% for his career btw. Seriously man, double standards aren’t anything to mess with. Once again, say if Kobe and Jordan both shot 24 times a game for a season and Kobe hit 11 of them a game (45.83%), while Jordan hit 12 (50%)… one is “inefficient” because he hit one less shot. That’s absolutely ridiculous on so many levels lol. Completely ignoring their different circumstances, but one shot determines how they are viewed. Amazing.

  • Maniac

    All you have done is picked yourself apart and proven your bias and/or unfamiliarity with the true nature of the game. You’re not even worth it anymore. Efficiency ….. LOL

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Good effort. You argue eloquently. But I’m not worth it? Kinda strange how most people side with me then isn’t it? Agree to disagree. You like observation. I like concrete. And since when are there meetings of “basketball historians” that YOU are invited to? Don’t big yourself up over the Internet buddy, I don’t care.

  • guahan

    gangsta answer if bron said this how much hate would he get???

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    In fact, I remember when you first came on here back in like November. Most of the people here thought you were a troll because of how stupid your opinions were. Remember that? I’m sure you do. There’s a reason for that, genius.

  • shutup

    “Only a completely idiot would assert that there has EVER been a scorer more deadly than Kobe, not named Michael Jordan and even that isn’t true sometimes” ————————————-Just look at career avg for ppg and its the person that made the aforementioned remark that is made to look like said idiot. Kobe is #10 on that list (or 9 if you combine nba/aba stats) That means that there are at least 7 retired players that scored more per game than Kobe and Kareem is only behind him because he played till his was 41. I stand by my statement, there is no logical argument that can put Kobe in the top 5 discussion and absolutely no objective opinion that can consider him for top 3. But thanks for trying.

  • Maniac

    Smh. Ask Kobe if he thinks I give a **** what other people think of me lol… ESPECIALLY over the internet. I’m done with this nonsense. Believe what you will. I didn’t say anyone was wrong. I said use CONSISTENCY. I’m out …. efficiency …. LOL

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Thank you shutup. See Maniac? You’re an idiot with a gift for writing. Bravo.

  • Maniac

    @shutup … seriously? You can’t be serious lol. So if I wanted to rank the best scorers I could just go on basketball-reference and copy down the ppg list. Thanks that’ll make my life soooooooo much easier… How about using context. Fine Kareem played until he was 42 (not 41). How about Kobe’s first two years don’t count either because he came off the bench. I’m not even about to play that silly little game with you. If you choose to believe that LeBron, Baylor, West, Iverson, Pettit, Iceman, & Oscar are better scorers than Kobe then go right ahead. You are entitled to your opinion.

  • Maniac

    And if you choose to not accept that there are legit arguments for Kobe ranking top 3 or top 5 then go ahead. That’s just your own little personal bias working overtime

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Wanna know why they’re better scorers Maniac? Cause there’s stats to back it up. Strange how that works isn’t it? I know it’s a foreign concept to you to use evidence to form conclusions, but it’s an essential skill for sounding intelligent. Some day I hope you’ll master it. Good luck.

  • shutup

    Oh and to call Wilt an anomaly to discredit his position all time is very suspect. He is an anomaly in the sense that the league has never seen anything like him before or after his time. The way you used it was more justifiable in the sense that Tracy McGrady being the best scorer in the league or Steve Francis contending for the top pg spot was an anomaly because the majority of there careers didnt end up like that. Wilt started his career killing and undeniably had the best consecutive 10 years the NBA has and will ever see. Over that stretch he avg 36.9 ppg

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Shutup, let’s stop man. Two gallons can’t fit into a thimble even with two people pouring as fast as they can. We press Maniac for an argument and he laughs at our demands. It’s like, “Hey Sarah Palin, how will you raise the defense budget while cutting taxes at the same time?” “Haha well you’re talking about not spending money on defense, letting the terrorists win. Chuckle, letting the terrorists win, lol.”

  • Maniac

    I did not discredit Wilt’s position. I said he is anomaly in the sense that his domination never existed before him and will NEVER, EVER, EVER be repeated. I once considered Wilt GOAT. Why would I discredit him? Reading is fundamental. And oh uh @Caboose: you’re a moron. Period. Peace.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    I’m sure that Michael Bay called Steven Spielburg an idiot too. Maniac, no one agrees with you for a reason. People agree with me for a reason. Sometimes we can draw correlations between things, our cerebral cortex allows for that. Unless you still have the simian variety of brain.

  • shutup

    So if you consider him at one time GOAT then how did Kobe surpass him? reading is fundamental. Kareem+MJ+Wilt =top 3= no Kobe in the top 3. Is that math simple enough for you?

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    I doubt that’s simple enough shutup. His math is Jordan > Kobe = Top 3.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Lol

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Kobe Bryant has never won a playoff series without Shaq or Pau Gasol. – Neither has Tracy McGrady.
    .
    .
    Just sayin.

  • coggie13

    Lebrons career will be better than kobes. I had to do it!

  • Maniac

    nbk lol. You too? Why is that relevant? OK so let’s walk through this slowly. Kobe has played 16 seasons.. 8 with Shaq and 5 with Pau. That means he has had a chance at 3 different years. You’re right, didn’t win one series (I should also mention that Pau never won a playoff GAME without Kobe lol). OK, so I’m sure that you’re aware of Mr. GOAT himself NEVER winning a series either without Pippen. I’m also sure you’re aware that Pip was drafted in 1987, while Jordan was in 1984.. that gives Jordan 3 whole years just like Kobe to pull off a playoff series victory, but he couldn’t either. Hmmm does that hurt him in any shape or form? Right, didn’t think so. Even more important, Pau doesn’t compare to Shaq or Pippen at all so I don’t even know why his name is relevant. Smh.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Kobe’s 3 years, we’re also right in his prime. And I said just sayin. I already am well aware of your irrational Kobe logic. Not interested in your ridiculous explanation again. He is a top 10 player at best right now. And frankly nothing you can say will change that or make me feel differently about your opinion.

  • Maniac

    LOL my irrational Kobe logic. OK. Do you really think I care about changing your opinion or even better.. do you really think I care about what you think of my opinion? That should be very obvious in the fact I haven’t commented in here a long time. Geesh, get a grip, let it go. You would think that Kate Faber was majority of you guy’s sister or something.

  • Dankenstein

    Next he’ll argue relentlessly that Kobe is a top 3 rapist.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Idk why are you defending your opinion, if you don’t care? Is that rational?

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    When was the last time a supposed “top-3 all-time” player went 2-10 in the 4th qtr of a close playoff game?

  • Tempest

    Keyboard warriors ahoy! Heres the list of Greatest of All Timers 1. Jordan 2. Wilt 3. Kareem 4. Magic 5. Russell 6. Kobe 7. Bird 8. Hakeem 9. Oscar 10. Tim Duncan

  • http://abcnews.com charliewinning

    I only have two things to say about this entire argument. ONE: 6 of those 10 All-Defensive Teams that Kobe made were absolutely positively F*CK*NG B*LLSH*T!! Only 2 of them were legit First-Team, not including last year. That whole debacle made me respect the coaches’ opinions less. TWO: Lebron made a very similar statement and got verbally killed for it. Imo, that actually proves what he said about the losers who love bashing him. They are simply miserable haters. There is double standard for those two guys. For the record I don’t have a problem with what either of them said.

  • RedRum

    Mine: 1. Jordan 2.Magic 3. Duncan 4. Kareem. 5. Hakeem 6. Bird 7. Wilt 8. Shaq (for those who forget Shaq led LA in a three peat, he is a three consecutive times Finals MVP…) 9. Oscar. 10. Kobe. In pure talent alone Lebron goes after/together Jordan as the best ever. There has never been a player so gifted as Lebron. I hate him for not being able to figure it out how to win, his inability to control the team when needed is robbing us from the opportunity to see the best athlete this earth has ever produced in his absolute top level. The other one that would be knocking a few people off this list is Durant, this kid has that ability to become GOAT.

  • Drig

    My man Kobe had a bad Q4 after he torched Q3. However, just don’t pile it up on him. He took a few bad shots, a few of them rimmed out too and most importantly, Bynum and Gasol stopped posting up. And don’t give me the shit that Kobe wouldn’t pass it to them anyways. Bynum got tired, Pau was tired and made the biggest play on the floor and Kobe tried Hero ball but it didn’t work out. So far, it’s 1-2. Anyways, peace out. Sans Game 1, all games were decided by 3 points or less. I still believe in my team but can anyone tell Durant that he’s effing with the law of averages lol???

  • Drig

    @nbk……..you can’t be serious with the TMac thing right? For one, whenever Kobe had a decent big, he got past the first round always. @Caboose……remember that the offensive sets LAL runs also hinders Kobe’s FG%. Kobe could get 47-48% FG% if he played with Chicago’s sets…….even with his questionable shot selection. Finally, Kobe’s a better scorer than Jordan.

  • http://abcnews.com charliewinning

    For the majority of Kobe’s career he’s played with the same offensive sets Jordan has, and Kobe has never been nearly as efficient. He’s not a better scorer at all. He’s a more aggressive scorer. There is a huge difference between the two. Part of the reason Kobe is able to put that much energy into scoring is because Jordan actually played hard on both ends consistently. That really can’t be overlooked or understated.

  • Drig

    @charlie……..the only seasons Kobe could freely attack from the post were the seasons he was doubled and tripled like crazy from the perimeter itself. You put Shaq-Bynum-Odom-Pau for almost 90% of the time Kobe plays and naturally his stats are gonna take a hit, esp. the FG%. Think back to how effective Jordan was from 20 ft and beyond that??? Was he better than Kobe? No. I’ve had Chicago fans themselves admit to that fact. So, I’d love to see how Jordan would’ve played if he was forced to operate more from range. And no, it’s not as easy as iso’ing and getting an open look using your individual skill while your teammates camp on the perimeter to knock down shots (Which Kobe hasn’t had for most of his career ) AND not bother to screw up the spacing since he was the main post threat on that team. And Kobe’s definitely more aggressive. And a hot/cold Kobe is more lethal/damning than a hot/cold MJ.

  • truthteller

    nbk,
    Kobe wasn’t in his prime his first 3 years! You are crazy! The first 3 years of Kobe’s career, he was 17,18,and 19! So you mean to tell me that he was in his prime at 19? Wow! I don’t know if that’s hate, sheer stupidity or both! And Kobe is the 2nd greatest SG of all time! Who’s gonna dispute that?

  • RedRum

    @Drig sorry mate, but Kobe is a better scorer than MJ? There is not a single stat you can pull out that can validate that. Kobe has missed more shots that he has made, with a lower ppg than MJ. How the bleap can you say that he is a better scorer than MJ???

  • truthteller

    People want to slam Kobe fans for d$%^ riding KObe but to most of these guys MJ could do no wrong! According to them MJ was the greatest shooter, defender,passer highest jumper, fastest/quickest player (even at 35!), never missed a shot, never had a bad game, never missed a game winner and never had a weakness! Who’s really the d$%^ rider? It never fails even with people who claim to know basketball! MJ was a ball hog until Phil arrived as Head coach and yet he still averaged 30+ in scoring and took more than 20-25 shots. One year, he averaged 40+ in the NBA finals in ’93! That was a team that had won 2 rings and he still scored that much! But MJ could do no wrong! I get it.

  • http://abcnews.com charliewinning

    I’ll give Kobe range but that’s about it. Kobe’s efficiency stats shouldn’t take a hit when he’s playing with those guys, even if he’s pushed further back on on the perimeter since that’s more his strength than Jordan’s. Jordan also had a way better mid-range game. In theory PPG should’ve been the only hard stat to take a hit when playing with those guys, but Shaq or Gasol’s presence never was a huge factor in how many shots he took so that’s a bogus argument. The guy just isn’t that efficient because he CHOOSES to take the more difficult shot. A hot/cold Kobe is more damning to his own team than a hot/cold Jordan, and the ’04 Finals solidified that. Hell, this season alone proves it. Are you trying to say that Kobe’s lack of a solid perimeter player was more of a challenge to overcome that Jordan’s lack of a dominant big man?

  • Authentic23

    I agree with @TruthTeller. Kobe definitely was not anywhere near his prime from 96-97 to 99. He was a good player in 2000 and was very good from 2000 – 2003. Kobe became “Kobe” in the 03-04/04-05 season/s.

    Definitely the #2 SG all-time but nowhere near Mike. Not even close. MJ was LEGENDARY when he got to the NBA Finals. MJ won 2 three-peats in 8 years, last one coming in his 30′s after he retired for 1.5 seasons. Who does that?? What professional athlete can retire and then comeback in their 30′s and dominate their sport?

    By the end of his career, Kobe will have more statistical totals than Michael Jordan but that’s due to playing more seasons than Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan’s rate of efficiency was through the roof and nobody comes even close to it. Kobe top 3 all time? No. Top 10? Yes, probably.

  • http://abcnews.com charliewinning

    I don’t think that anyone is saying MJ could do no wrong. But only Kobe fanatics lack the objectivity to see that it isn’t as close as they think it is. Perception is a huge part of that, and Kobe is a master at helping that perception with imitation. Kobe moves like him, cloned his mannerisms, walks like him, and even celebrates like him. When you couple that with the fact that Kobe really is an outstanding player with amazing drive, it makes it seem like they are closer as basketball players than they really are. Basketball facts prove they aren’t the same, but perception trumps fact.

  • russian guy

    The reason we discuss and sometimes insult each other is because we try to measure the variables ‘greatness’ or ‘value’ or whatever other with the use of different indicators.Some think observation is the best measure (maniac?) other say stats or advanced stats.What you Caboose say is that stats are more of a ‘fact’ than observations or other indicators which is a false statement.These discussions here are really ridiculous,sometimes stupid.There are no objective stats,because every stat can be interpreted differently and given a higher or lower meaning.Basketball is no hard science.Think about that everytime you consider yourself ‘objective’.Just my two cents.

  • truthteller

    Charliewinning,
    You have proved the real reason why Kobe’s game is knocked and to some extent hated. It’s more because of MJ than it is his skills. While Kobe may not be as close to MJ as KObe fans think, he’s not as far or as bad as MJ fans think he is either! A lot of MJ fans, who are usually Kobe haters have this illusion that somehow MJ’s legacy will be tarnished the more successful Kobe becomes! A lot of them refuse to admit this but a lot of these people are good friends of mine and I finally get them to admit it. You can tell in their arguments,when kobe is being talked about even when we’re not even talking about MJ, somehow his name is brought and right away they’re talking about how inferior Kobe is to MJ! It was ok when Vince Carter, Harold Miner, Penny Hardaway, Iverson, Grant Hill and a 18 year old Kobe bryant was being compared to MJ because we knew that they wouldn’t even have a chance to accomplish anything close to what MJ did but all of a sudden, we have Kobe actually winning and accomplishing a lot, now the hate comes. More MJ fans secretly and oopenly root against Kobe and use stupid stats and terrible nit picking to prove what Kobe is not thatn appreciate himfor what he is: A great NBA first ballet Hall of fame who is the closest thing we’ve seen to MJ. he is definately the greatest or top 3 greatest players of this generation (2000-present)

  • truthteller

    @Authentic,
    You make a very great point. Yes MJ was dominate in his 30′s but look at what KObe has done in his 15th and 16th season? Who does that? If it wasn’t for injury, Kobe would have won the scoring title and if he really wanted to when he returned from injury he could have. yet KD barely beat Kobe in scoring! After 16 season? Who does that? he still commands double teams in his 16th season! he still made the All Star team this year and will make first all NBA team and maybe first NBA defensive team and he was top 5 in MVP voting in his 16th season?! Who does that? Why can’t we appreciate that? That definitley comes from a hard work ethic which most NBA players like Iverson, Shaq and Vince Carter never had! let’s see if Lebron and dwade and even Kevin Durant play this well in their 30′s if they even make it that long! Instead we nit-pick and het on him for what he isn’t and for his mistakes!In honestly don’t think that’s fair at all. It’s like evrybody is so obssessed with Lebron being tis great player that I don’t think he will ever be that we deliberatly ignore the living legend we have right before our eyes over some pettiness!

  • http://abcnews.com charliewinning

    I think there’s a bit of of truth to what you’re saying, but I’m a lifelong Knick fan (a real one) so I’m not even a tiny bit of an MJ fan. I appreciate his game but the closest thing I’ve been to a fan is rocking his sneakers, and that’s only because they were in style. I think for most of us who weren’t babies in the 90′s, our thing with Kobe is that we’ve already seen him before, only a better version. As a fan of the game you’d have to be a hater to try to downplay Kobe’s talent though. 2nd greatest two guard, closest to MJ since he after the last chip, and in the convo with TD for greatest player of his era. Nothing more and certainly nothing less, imo.

  • truthteller

    Charliewinning,
    The comment you just made is the most honest statement about Kobe bryant that I ever read or heard from a non Kobe fan in my life!!!! I tip my hat to you for that comment and i’m not even going to continue this conversation because you have ended this converstaion with the most intelligent statement that any non kobe fan has ever made. And I mean that. No sarcasm! All kobe haters or critics need to read the comment you just made.

  • Respect

    I swear kobe nd westbrook had a bet on who could take the most shots in the series

  • http://abcnews.com charliewinning

    @truthteller: Respect

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    That was a good read through guys. I like seeing civil debates like that. I think consensus has Kobe around 7-11 range. I think that’s fair, right? And we can all agree that Maniac is wrong? Haha

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Kobe is 6 right now on my list and little kids on this site need to go watch some MJ games from the 1990′s and see how he played. He missed shots, chucked shots, missed teammates, ran off teammates and missed 20 shots in a deciding game to win a ring against Utah. Its so weird, Kobe is the closest thing to MJ ever, but people act like he can’t play and has done nothing. If you take MJ out of the conversation and just look at Kobe career, you see ALL that he has accomplished and his career still has to me 5 to 7 years. When the GREATEST player ever, states KOBE can be compared to him, people need to recognize, because GAME recognize GAME. Larry Bird, some people feel is over Kobe, even stated that KOBE is his favorite player in the NBA, because of his GAME and PASSION. Imagine if KOBE had the luxury of BIRD to play with about 4 HoFAMERS on his teams. I am done, Kobe lost tonight, people will talk junk about him, but DUDE just doesn’t care. BOOK IT!!

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    You’re back Seed? And you still have no argument. Congratulations. Just because Kobe’s game looks like MJ does not mean he’s anywhere close to him. Terrence Williams has a similar play style to LeBron but he’s not anywhere near him.

  • Ken

    Caboose, you are mentally ill.

  • Drig

    @Charlie…….how the hell is PPG the only stat that should take a hit ( which has ) and not things like FG%?!?! Let me use an analogy here : For a great player, playing near the rim/paint is like walking on a flat road. Operating mostly from the perimeter is akin to trekking on a mountain terrain, esp. long 2s. It don’t matter much about how much better Kobe is than Jordan from mid range because Jordan could waltz his way and pick wherever he wanted to dominate ( to his credit, he went the easy way ) unlike Kobe who’s mostly ( MOSTLY ) forced to trek upwards. That’s the reason why FG% would never be same. And I’m sure as hell MJ’s FG% would decrease if he played with the big post guys Kobe played. And how does MJ has the better mid-range game???? Both convert a ton and as we gradually move towards the 3PT line ( it’s still long midrange there ) Kobe gets into the ELITE/GREAT category while Jordan from there is VERY GOOD / GREAT depending on the shooting night. And you don’t think it’s difficult to get in always when you got a 7’0 ft wide as a train player occupying the paint?? Defenses used to collapse on Shaq like crazy back in the day and it was up to mostly Kobe to provide that offensive firepower from the perimeter to keep things balanced even then. You didn’t see Rick Fox / Shaw/ Harper / Horry / Fisher lead the team from perimeter and that’s because none of them could create their own shot AND then score effectively. Re: Gasol, you did see Game 4 vs Thunder right? Did you see how the Thunder manned up the paint and denied Laker bigs the chance to either post up or get an entry pass in a good position? Did you see in many a game this season how everyone was passing back to Kobe on the perimeter guarded by a longer defender to create some shot and offense at the end of close games??? That basically sums up Kobe’s career. Some of it is because of his very bad shot selection and selfishness but a significant chunk of it is also because of the inability of the perimeter players he played with to create open looks for him. Even now, with this iteration of Kobe who’s clearly lost a step, when Kobe gets a spot up off a screen, he’s money 90% of the time in the clutch. I can guarantee that. But without others creating for him and their inability to score without them creating, it’s a bad place to be in. And that’s where I think Jordan had it easier along with only single coverage and no zoning. Great spot up shooters, another superstar on the perimeter to create for him and only single coverage enabling him to get wherever he wanted.

  • Drig

    their inability to score without him* creating…….typo there. BTW, I still don’t think Kobe would’ve cracked the 50% FG% barrier. I would say he would consistently be in the 47-48% barrier and have more assists if he had the kind of team MJ had when he won the titles. Give or take with regards to the rest of the stats and the championships.

  • Heals

    Nice stat from last nights game; Kobe has 87 or so 30pt+ games is the playoffs, MJ has at least 30 more despite playing many fewer games…

  • Drig

    @Healse…….in the POs, Kobe played 219 games, put up 4446 shots and 1610 FTs while Jordan played 179 games, put up 4497 shots ( Seriously?! ) and 1766 FTs. One’s called selfish. Seriously, Kobe can’t win. Take more shots and avg. more 30 pt games than Jordan and be called selfish or not take them and be called inferior to MJ.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Drig, Kobe “can’t win” because of that ugly FG %. Jordan has way more made shots in the playoffs than Kobe does. And the Bulls won when Jordan shot more. Kobe shot the most in 04 and the Lakers lost with one of their best teams ever.

  • Heals

    @Drig, dude you didn’t even mention hand-checking. MJ shot better and defenses were allowed to hand-check him…

  • Heals

    At the end of the day MJ’s 6 for 6 with 6 Finals MVP’s, Kob is 5 for 7, with 2 (or is it 3?) MVP’s. Just stop Beanbags…

  • Drig

    That’s a better stance, Caboose. Now, ask yourself this : Do you honestly think that MJ didn’t benefit from the kind of D and the team makeup with regards to his individual achievements? Do you honestly think Kobe always shoots like he does just because he wants to?? The answer to both is no. I’ve already stated Kobe’s FG% will not be near the 50% barrier even if both of them are given a fair shake ( MJ would probably get 47-48% max in Kobe-role on these laker teams ). And I wish you wouldn’t bring up 04 lol. That was the worst low I’ve suffered as a Laker-Kobe fan. Double whammy of both sinking at the same time. Kobe effed up the series for us with his bad shooting ( some great D, some really effed up shot selection and some really bad botched calls )and Malone was out. I get it. He screwed up badly in 04 and I believe most of it was because Kobe-Shaq was running on fumes. But I don’t see how that changes how I said that he is a better scorer???? I mean, take 08-10. Kobe took over 550 shots each time ( and shot at a similar clip if not more vs Celts and Magic ), and the team won twice and lost once.

  • Heals

    Jordan heads actually don’t sweat Kob’s legacy at all cause it’s not as good. Plain and simple. It’s really the Beanbags that are soooo desperate to justify including Kob in MJ’s conversation. It’s an inferiority complex. I mean seriously what uck are you cult members gonna do when your (flawed) messiah retires…

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Heals, read my conversation with Seed and Maniac, most Kobe defenders don’t respond to facts. Drig, I’m sorry, but that is pure conjecture. Why do you think Jordan would shoot a worse percentage when perimeter defenses are looser, interior D is less tough, and Jordan would have it EASIER in Kobe’s role (given Shaq and the same coach)?

  • Drig

    LOL@Heals………………..did you even read what I was arguing about?? I already stated that MJ was the better overall player so don’t get your panties in a bunch. I stated he was the better scorer. And what do you want me to do if Kobe’s 5 of 7??? It is what it is and frankly, I’m happy with what I’ve got.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    WHOA!! WHOA!…
    Terrence Williams? That dude is GOAT, man. smh. lol

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Lol, you sound like Maniac there, Philo.

  • Drig

    Caboose……….because Jordan would face doubles by long lanky defenders( and we know he found it tough vs the Pistons and their semi-zones ), Jordan would be forced to play more in the half court with a big man in the paint and hence be forced to shoot more from the perimeter to prevent D from collapsing into the paint ( Seriously, as a Laker fan, I’ve seen it so many times I feel sick just thinking about it ). Remind me again how it is more easier for Jordan to score with Shaq???? Shaq was a very good passer but NEVER LIKED to play the screen and roll as well….BTW, a double by average defenders is always harder to overcome than a single coverage by a very good defender man. Just by that logic, it’s pretty obvious why it would fall. Seriously, if you guys want me to prove anything with regards to who being the better scorer without resorting to conjecture and only relying on stats ( which donot show such intricacies ), there’s no way.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Hold on, my brethren.
    Keep in mind all of the rules (or lack thereof) Jordan’s guys played with in their day. Guys used to get killed.
    Today, if you touch a guy, it is a felony punishable with incarceration and a million dollar fine.
    Just think about that.
    Kobe has/had numerous advantages. And still…
    And that goes for this entire generation of player.
    The 80′s and early 90′s were the golden age.

  • Drig

    BTW, if anyone’s interested, regarding Game 4 vs OKC : There were four instances, that I counted, in the 4th quarter in which Gasol should’ve taken an open 12-15 footer. Instead, he decided to play hot potato with the ball. Three times it FORCED Kobe to take ridiculous shots as the shot clock was winding down, the 4th instance was the turnover late. Kobe jacks up enough dumb shots, he doesn’t need his teammates helping him jack up any more. I’ve seen JT quoting 2/10 stat somewhere and sometimes, I just wish guys would watch Laker games more……..

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Thank you Philo. Drig, I respect what you’re saying, but you can’t pretend double teams didn’t exist in Jordan’s time. If anything, they’d have to double him less with a dominant center in Shaq. I’m tired of this argument, mostly because there hasn’t been one stat from anyone from the Kobe camp. Mostly cause there aren’t any. The only thing the Kobe side has is conjecture, which, as a student of logic, I simply cannot condone.

  • Drig

    Philo, I get the fact that we get more wishy washy calls now. I assumed the increased play from the perimeter would compensate for the additional calls MJ would get and estimated he would get as many FTA per game as a Durant/ LBJ would have. Give or take 1 and it still wouldn’t make too much difference.

  • http://www.thesmashbrothas.com zen garden

    Look at this thread. This is why he says he doesn’t play for peoples’ approval. Fans pay his check, but they also do not give two s__ts about him. No matter what he does, some people will always nay say his legacy so you can’t stress them. Also, fans don’t care about the players. If someone stops producing, they are gone, forgotten and not respected. It would be like caring about your boss: all your boss wants is for you to do your job, it isn’t a friendly relationship.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Uhm, the 3 years in question (the only 3 years of Kobe’s career he wasn’t playing with either Shaq or Pau Gasol) are 2005-2008. Maybe make sure you actually read the words you are arguing over. Instead of wasting so much time typing something irrelevant.

  • http://abcnews.com charliewinning

    Drig, Kobe shoots like that out of necessity? His second highest fg attempts in a season came during Shaq’s prime on the Lakers in 03. Damn near 2,000 shots that season. That’s poor shot selection, nothing nothing else. And yes, Jordan did have a better mid-range game. No one saying Jordan was flawless but Laker fans make it seem like the guy is just as good, if not better.

  • Quinn

    This douche is such an [expletive] DIVA. Hope okc brings these fools down a peg or two.

  • Heals

    Your right Drig, playing with Shaq, Pau and Bynum definitely impeded Kob’s shooting prowess. If only he played with great big men like LucLongley, BillWennington, JohnSalley, BillCartright and WillPurdue that MJ was blessed with. I mean what are you trying accomplish. Thongs don’t bunch-up smart a$$ and enjoy that 3-1 series deficit…

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Do y’all see The King?
    Without question, the Greatest Player on the Face of the Earth.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Must win situation. And it really was.
    How does The King respond?
    With a 40 point triple double.
    With being responsible for over half of the team’s point production. With carrying that group on his back, (like an MVP is supposed to) and saving them from a humiliating loss.
    Trust AND believe, my brethren, The King is still very much clutch. This game is indicative of such. He would not let them lose this one.
    Now, they can still lose this series. But, they HAD to win this game, and The King made sure that that was going to happen.
    LONG… LIVE… THE KING.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Oh.
    And Wade has a nice bounce back game. Nice show of heart. He always had heart.

  • http://abcnews.com charliewinning

    ^Word. Bron went in. And Wade looked like he could barely miss after that terrible 1st half.

  • aotearaw

    Shaq > Kobe

  • Hobbes

    Of coz Kobe don’t give a fk, as a person and player he is. He’s forgotten that defering to the big fellow is how you win 3peat, like you admitted back in 2001. Now ya too blind to play hero ball and fked ur team’s chance in both game 2&4. Truly Kobe’s never been the true leader as MJ was, and he can kiss his 6th ring dream goodbye. Somewhere shaq must be laughing :)

  • Karl

    Well Kobe, I don’t give a **** you don’t give a ****. But you still lost the game for your team. Doesn’t change the fact that your ‘clutch’ shooting has been non existent for the past 4 years.

  • Drig

    @Heals…..you didn’t even read my explanation of why those big guys would take away attention but still make things harder for him did you??? @charlie……Shaq-Kobe’s Lakers back in ’03 had Shaq who got 18 FGA, Kobe who got 23 FGA, Fish who got 9.5-10, George/Fox/Horry who got 6 FGA resp. and a bunch of other guys who got around 4-2. Notice that sans Shaq, NONE OF THEM shot better than Kobe from the perimeter. I’d say he RIGHTFULLY took more shots that season. And please don’t argue that Shaq should’ve gotten over 20 FGA. Please.

  • Drig

    @Caboose……I understand and respect that. I also understand and respect the fact that MJ is a better two way player than Kobe is. Why is it so hard to see the deck was stacked against Kobe being an effective shooter because of the way he HAD to play to make the team work???? I didn’t say Kobe would easily be more efficient than MJ. Hell, I stated twice that Kobe wouldn’t even break the 50% barrier. What I did say was that his efficiency would improve to 47-48% and that with his better shooting from 3pt land makes him a better scorer in my book. I guess it ultimately comes down to whether you like the stats to support your argument more than what you see or vice versa. I don’t have any problem with either side but I wish people wouldn’t brush aside what Kobe’s done on O throughout his career without watching too many games and simply watching the boxscore and say “Look, he’s a ballhog-selfish etc”

  • Drig

    Last sentence didn’t get put up……is there a problem or something here??? Last sentence : Doing that is as foolish as saying MJ had nothing to do with those 6 rings. Hyperbole comparison. Yes. I suck at comparisons so cut me some slack lol.

  • rand33p

    THE SEED has some valid points… gotta agree with most.. but I have kobe higher than 6th all time.. and he’s still playing and a top 5 player in the L on any list.. unreal.. he’ll prolly win one more ring before he is done.. a couple more first team all NBA spots to boot.. let’s just enjoy the player he is and not over analyze based on stats.. as THE SEED said, if Jordan said you can compare Kobe to him then why are people saying we can’t? Jordan recognizes the skill and footwork and passion, not the stats.

  • rand33p

    “there’s lies, damned lies, and stats” #truth

  • Heals

    @Drig, read quotes from guys who played with Shaq, he “gave” guys careers and nice paychecks with all the open 3′s and drive-and-kick shots his presence created. You’re having to go above and beyond to move your position inches, while those of us who disagree are covering ground like a young Bo Jackson (powerful and quick). A big man getting 2x teamed is never a detriment to SG’s regardless of their skill set. I saw your argument and know it’s wrong. Watch teams with subpar C’s play basketball (see Atl v Bos before Horford got healthy) or even play ball for that matter. Life is hell when you’re a SG and the D doesn’t worry one bit about your C offensively (see names mentioned above). Your argument that playing with those big men was a detriment to Kob’s shooting prowess is asinine at best…

  • Heals

    Okay let’s compare them: MJ’s better. Cool we’re done here…

  • shutup

    I hate when people say we should go by how we feel while watching him play instead of looking at concrete stats. Can someone please post a link to were Jordan said that? Oh and arguments that say Kobe playing with Shaq or Pau made it harder for him, well then I’ll bump the stats you want if you give back 3-4 chips.

  • shutup

    @Heals exactly. ask Nick Anderson and David Scott, or youtube the barbershop reunion with Penny, and Shaq

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Shutup, Heals, you can’t win here. Kobe fans dislike actual stats because they directly disprove everything they believe in. Every other top 10 player has concrete evidence to justify their place. Kobe has feel. Here’s an interesting question, has Kobe ever been the majority-considered best player in the league? I say no, but I’m open to alternatives.

  • Bill Breedley

    This is simple. How many rings was Kobe a significant contributor to?
    Nuff said

  • Bill Breedley

    Stats are for snotty nosed four eyed freaks playing tuff guy expert in mommys basement

  • real

    @The Philosopher.. u think u are the God of basketball knowledge, you’re just some MJ and Kobe hatin internet troll homie. If youre saying Magic is the GOAT cos he was a tall guard, then Penny Hardaway would be Top 5 of all time also! Plus MJ destroyed Magic in the finals and Magic himself said Kobe is the best Laker of all time. Your oppinion is wack!

  • KidCongo

    Top 2 most arrogant sportsmen. The other being Cristiano Ronaldo.

  • http://abcnews.com charliewinning

    @Drig: Heals 1:04am comment sums up my point about playing with Shaq. LOL @Kidcongo. I f*ck#ng hate christiano Ronaldo.

  • coggie13

    I have one question that can solve it all! If game 7 is on the line and you are down by 1, who do you want taking the shot? MJ or Kobe. I know my answer. Even die hard Kobe fans know the answer to this one.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Ha!
    Never said Magic was g.o.a.t. because of height and position.
    Never said that I am some god of basketball knowledge, either. You’re saying that. lol
    But thanks, anyway.
    Oh, and I love Kobe Bryant’s game. Always have.
    Jordan’s too. Actually, I love Jordan’s game better than I love Kobe’s game.
    But again, thank you for the compliment, and thank you for reading my comment(s).

  • coggie13

    @Caboose. The more I read this entire thread the less people started challenging your facts. Respect, I think these things but the arrogance of some is enough to make me reconsider posting! Shout out to all the young passionate basketball fans out there!

  • Boogers

    hahahahhaha!!! you guys are too funny. good late night reading! (in australia) people who think kobe top 3? Crazy. Top 5? Slightly deranged. Top 10? There we go. some common sense. Goodnight

  • Tweaks

    Guys who get into the literal debate..obviously don’t play ball. I mean, it’s a BALL-TALK thing…come on, i’m 6.1 and i;ve been called a midget on the court..probably hundreds of times, heck, i’ve even called myself a midget on numerous ocasions…i mean….it’s ball-talk people!!

  • Drig

    @Heals……and exactly how many times did Kobe benefit from such open looks??? If I remember correctly about this, sans the first tile in the 3peat, Kobe’s man rarely left him unless he ran the PnR with Shaq ( which he hated ) or posted Shaq and Kobe on the weakside simultaneously but a defender usually stopped guarding one of the other 3 guys and committed a defender to the weakside to double Shaq while still having Kobe under watch. And regarding your comment about him earning paychecks for many a player, I never said he made the game worse for the TEAM. Making the other good player operate from the perimeter maximized the potential of the TEAM, which might not have helped Kobe but he’s a single player and 1 vs 5, 5 always SHOULD win. Now regarding the spot up shooting part, as a relevant sample space, watch the Denver series when LAL’s role players never knocked down open shots and the other team packed the paint. Show me ONE player who played consistently with Kobe and who was a knockdown shooter from deep for it to actually take advantage of this. When the opposing team packs the paint and keeps a single defender on Kobe, how the hell does it make it easier for Kobe to score? The team, yes. Kobe? No. I understand you will not budge from your position and I will not back down from mine. Let’s just agree to disagree.

  • Heals

    Do you Drig, we’ll cross comment paths again, til then my man. Big games tonight…

  • anita smith

    yak all you want – sometimes the bigs need to accept they are not god

  • bob dylan

    How do you starve a black man?……Hide his food stamps in his work boots!

  • bob dylan

    Why do Jews have big noses?…..’Cause the air is free!

  • bob dylan

    Why do Jews have big noses?…..”Cause the air is free!

  • bob dylan

    What’s black and tan and looks good on a lawyer?…..A Doberman Pincher!

  • bob dylan

    What’s the best thing about dating a homeless girl?…..When you’re done, you can drop her off anywhere!

  • bob dylan

    What do you say to a black man in a business suit?….Will the defendant please rise!

  • bob dylan

    How did the Pollock break his arm while raking leaves?….He fell out of the tree!

  • bob dylan

    That’s all I got folks. Thank you very little and have a Grateful Day!

  • Bruce

    Not only does Kobe not listen to critics,he doesn’t listen to coaches(including Phil) or teammates either. If Phil had taken control of Kobe early when he had some leverage,the Lakers could have 8 or 9 titles under Kobe’s watch by now and Kobe might legitimately be considered one of the top ten players in league history and legitimately compared to Jordan. It isn’t a question of basketball IQ or hard work on Kobe’s part,both are off the charts.
    The weakness on Kobe’s part comes from the hard work he has put in has been almost exclusively centered on individual skills which are again off the chart. What Kobe has totally ignored to his detriment and even more so to the Laker detriment is that this is not a game of individuals(although the NBA pr machine tries to sell it that way),it is a team game. Kobe has been on championship calibre team 14 of his 16 years. He has always had top bigs,the biggest and primary requirement for excellence in the NBA. His tendency to want to compete with bigs rather than blend talents with them has cost the team several titles they should have won based on team talent over his career.
    In his efforts to be top dog whenever the team didn’t live up to expectations his reaction was to criticize teammates,especially the ones who enabled the team to be a contender every year except maybe 2 during Kobe’s time in LA. It was never his fault even though he would often take bad shots in great numbers to try to pad his stats instead of passing to his higher scoring efficiency bigs.
    As far as top three player of all time,the poster who wrote that has to be under ten years old and never watched a Laker game before 2005. Just on Lakers alone,these players were far better than Kobe. In order based on play as a Laker these are the greatest Lakers: 1. Magic Johnson 2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar(on total career you’d have to make him 1,2.or 3 all time overall,but going by Laker career alone I’d put Magic first)3. Jerry West(better fg% career average at 47% the best Kobe has ever had in his BEST single season is under 47%. Averaged more ppg than Kobe even though the many” threes” that he made only counted as two pointers. Way better range on his shot than Kobe. 4. Shaquille O’neal. Unquestionably the MVP and leader on all three of the championship teams they played on together. Arguably could be above West on this list. 5. Elgin Baylor. A true all time great. Was Michael Jordan and Dr. J. before either of them even picked up a basketball. He could hang in the air forever and continue switching moves until the would be defender landed,then he finished. Averaged about 27 or 28 points per game and at about 6’5 or 6’6 was usually among the top five or so rebounders in the league. This was in the era of Chamberlain and Russell. For those complaining about the lack of titles in the West/Baylor era(West had one,Baylor’s knees gave out the year Wilt and West won the title and he had to retire),remember their careers coincided with that of William Felton Russell(11 titles in 13 seasons). 6. Kobe Bryant. A very talented but very selfish player. His greatest contributions were his raw scoring statistics and even though he took more shots per game than the others(save Magic,who shot a much higher percentage,outrebounded Kobe and was the ultimate team player),he averaged less points per game than any of them. Even in his “strongest area” four of the other five top Lakers outshone Kobe. I left out two other players who deserve mention here. George Mikan who led the Lakers to five titles in about half the number of seasons that it took Kobe(and he was the Laker MVP on all five of those title teams),Kobe has only been Laker MVP on two and due to his horrible 7th game performance in 2010 even one of those is questionable. If not for heroics by Artest and Gasol in that game,the Lakers aren’t champions that year. I left Mikan off because he simply didn’t compare to Kobe in skill level. Of course there is Wilt who without question is above Kobe on the all time list overall, but only had a few years at the end of his career as a Laker. Please,those of you who actually believe Kobe is a top 3 or 5 or even ten player of all time,learn something about the game. Kobe is primarily a volume shooter and there are probably ten players or more all time who averaged more than his 25 points per game on a far higher shooting percentage. Missed shots are a negative and when you miss as high a percentage as Kobe does(about 55%) you are creating a lot of opportunities for your opponent to take the ball the other way.

  • Me

    Kobe played with a torn ligament in his shooting wrist of course his shooting pct gone drop you DUMBASSES. And he still put up 27pg and handed KD the scoring title cause he didnt want it.Kobe will be the GOAT and Top 3 no Right Now He Is Top 2. You are an IDIOT if you think them players were better Than KB

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