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Tuesday, July 16th, 2013 at 1:55 pm  |  91 responses

Jason Kidd Pleads Guilty to Drunk Driving Charge


Brooklyn Nets head coach Jason Kidd pleaded guilty on Tuesday to a misdemeanor drunken driving charge. Kidd was placed on interim probation, nearly a year after crashing his SUV (and suffering minor injuries.) Per the AP: “In exchange for the guilty plea, Kidd agreed to speak to Long Island high school students about the dangers of drunken driving. If he fulfills his community service, his plea will be reduced to a violation – driving while ability impaired – when he returns to court on Sept. 30. Kidd, who retired as an NBA player after last season, was recently hired to coach the Nets – the team he took to two NBA Finals as a player when the franchise played in New Jersey. Suffolk County District Attorney Thomas Spota said outside court that Kidd could have received three years’ probation, but a better alternative was reached. ‘He’s a role model to kids and other people. And he’s going to have the opportunity to talk to them about the foolish mistake that he made and the fact he took responsibility for his actions,’ Spota said outside court. ‘That is for me more important than three years’ probation.’ Police said Kidd crashed his SUV into a telephone pole in the Hamptons community of Water Mill on July 15, 2012. He was treated at a hospital for minor injuries. Defense attorney Ed Burke Jr. said Kidd was returning from a charity function before the crash. A Southampton Town Police report noted the 10-time NBA all-star and Olympic gold medalist was unsteady on his feet, smelled of alcohol and had bloodshot and glassy eyes.”

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  • danpowers

    top 10 point guards of all time

    1 magic
    2 kidd
    3 stockton
    4 thomas
    5 cousy
    6 frazier
    7 monroe
    8 paul
    9 payton
    10 nash (does oscar robertson really belong in here?)

  • MikeC.

    Put it behind you and see if Prohkorov will pay for a driver next time. Sh!t, I work retail and I can afford a taxi when I’m impaired.

  • MikeC.

    I’m tempted to slide Isiah down the list a few notches just based on what he did to NY. Man I hate losing a whole decade.

  • danpowers

    i cant stand that ch*mp neither but that doesnt make him a worse player lol

  • Dfrance

    The NBA already has a car service for its players in operation 24/7/365. I will never understand why an athlete would drive drunk when they have that option.

  • pposse

    wasn’t this like a year ago?!

  • Caboose

    Kidd above Stockton. No.

  • Caboose

    So he gets a drunk driving charge, crashed his car into a telephone pole, pleads guilty, and all he has to do is talk to high school kids? Well, if Zimmerman is free, anything is possible I suppose.

  • spit hot fiyah

    u forgot about jermy lin

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    You put Jason Kidd as the 2nd greatest PG ever? Please tell me you aren’t sober?

  • Ben Ireland

    Did you star out chump or could you not bring yourself to call him a champ hahah?

  • http://twitter.com/niQknacks niQ

    Man, Greg Monroe is so good. Plays PF, gets ranked top 10 PG of all time. (not srs)

  • 23

    I think he meant earl Monroe. Greg Monroe isn’t even top 10 al time in his position. Maybe top 20 all time. But def not a top 10 all time pf.

  • spit hot fiyah

    the parenthesis was for you

  • http://twitter.com/niQknacks niQ

    I think you missed my not serious comment at the back lol.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Earl Monroe was a shooting guard. You put Chris Paul above Gary Payton? Man i’m so confused as to whether or not you actually put thought into this?

  • Caboose

    ……Greg Monroe is a top 20 power forward?

  • danpowers

    yup, and i dont even like that guy lol. dont you remember that nets team he lead to the finals? or how he mastered the overall package of running an offense, rebounding, defense and many small things glue guy type of things to perfection? i know this ranking wouldnt be popular, id just give mr triple double the slight edge over stockton due to his overall game. wouldnt smash my notebook tho if anyone would convince me of why he should rank lower.

  • danpowers

    lol definitely chump! didnt know it wasnt censored in here

  • danpowers

    lol

  • Caboose

    I’d be happy to make an argument…(and arguing against Kidd who’s from my alma mater hurts)

    1. Excluding Stockton’s first 2 years, Kidd’s highest Win Shares per 48 minutes were the same as Stockton’s lowest. For reference, Kidd’s career WS/48 is .133. Stock’s is .209. That’s a huge gap.

    2. Stockton led the L in assists 9 times. Kidd, 5. 3 of which he did averaging single digits.

    3. Stockton’s career FG%: 51.5. Kidd’s? 40.0%. That is ridiculous.

    4. Stockton averages almost 2 more assists for his career than Kidd, yet averages less turnovers.

    5. Lots of people knock Stockton for not being able to score. Yet his career average is higher than Kidd’s.

    6. Stockton led the L in eFG% once and TS% 3 times. Kidd never cracked the top 10 in either.

  • danpowers

    as far as i know earl monroe was a combo guard who predominantly played the two when he teamed up with frazier in ny, but played both guard positions. please correct if i am wrong here.

    payton and paul could easily be exchanged by now. i also included paytons early years, it took him about 3 to 4 seasons to become an elite point guard while paul was arguably there in or after his second season. i am also condifent that paul will build his legacy to an extent that this ranking would be justified and he’d even move up on that list a few spots. imo at this point of paul’s career one could make a case for each of both to be better than the other

  • Dagger

    Honestly, it’s easy to forget how great Stockton was. Thanks for the reminder.

  • Caboose

    No no, if CP retired today, he’s not equal to Payton. You can’t rank on what has the potential to happen.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Do you remember the Eastern Conference in those years? That Nets team that made the finals was at very BEST, the 4th best team in the league. (Lakers/Spurs/Kings). So, honestly those 2 championship appearances are great, but once we get into this discussion, they are pretty much useless. Any of those PG’s in the top 10 would have been able to do something similar in that Eastern Conference.

    .

    i personally? wouldn’t even have Kidd in the top 4.

    .

    1- Magic
    (2A- The Big O)
    2- Stockton
    3 – Isiah
    4- Frazier
    5- Kidd
    6- Payton
    7- Nash
    8- Cooz
    9- Archibald
    10- KJ

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Monroe* played Shooting Guard his whole career. In Washington Kevin Loughery was the “Point Guard” — although, as you said, it was a tandem Guard lineup (as most lineups were in that era). But he wasn’t what you would classify as a PG if you’ve seen him play more than a couple times?
    .
    How do you come up with the idea that Paul is even a top 10 PG? What has he actually done? Seriously? He’s been really good for 6 years, but he’s literally accomplished nothing that merits him even being in this discussion. Go ahead and look.

  • bike

    Seems like Nate Archibald ought to be in the top 10….IMO of course.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    he’s not even in this discussion if he retired today.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    you forgot Stockton’s steals & assist record. Which are both so far ahead of everyone else that they’re basically the equivalent to Joe Dimmagios 56 game hit streak. Stockton was unreal for an unrealistic amount of time.

  • Dagger

    To be fair, it depends. How much do you weigh peak statistical production? It was a big part of your argument for Stockton.

    Chris Paul’s advanced statistics are remarkable. For the past six seasons his PER has been way higher than Payton’s was in his best season. The same goes for winshares. Paul’s career PER is 25.5 and his career winshares stands at .244. For Payton: 18.9 and .148.

    If you prefer more basic statistics, Paul has recorded back-to-back 21+ PPG and 11 APG seasons. Payton never had more than 9 APG. Both are/were efficient players, but again, Paul’s highest FG% and TS% were higher than those of Payton’s career seasons.

    In sum: I would rank Payton higher than Paul. Payton was great for 11 or 12 seasons, while Paul has been great for 7 or 8. Moreover, Paul is a nice defender, but Payton was relentless. But really, Paul at his peak was statistically better than Payton, and if you rank greatness based on the quality of a player at the summit of his abilities, than you can certainly make an argument for Paul.

  • MikeC.

    Wheels of justice turn slooooooooowly.

  • danpowers

    he was but he was also aware of the circumstances that enabled him to do so (playin the stockalone all the time) and he wasnt such a big fan of statistical records neither and the first one to downplay this achievements (dont remember his quote, sorry)

    whatever, i am convinced: johnny at two

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    You can’t really rank a PG based on just stats when he has experienced limited team success…I would be really fine with the Paul over Payton talks if he won anything. But he has gotten out of the first round exactly twice (not his fault per say, but it also can’t be ignored).
    .
    Ranking Paul in the top 10 all-time in PG’s today, is like going to 2005 and putting Tracy McGrady in the top of the heap for SG’s all-time.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    i just wanted to point those out since Caboose was listing achievements. Those numbers aren’t really part of my argument for him. It was more about his longevity, and the consistency he brought with it.
    .
    if Jason Kidd could shoot, or he took better care of the ball, i think it would be much closer. Stockton was basically perfect from a fundamental standpoint, and that’s what (imo) separates him from a guy like Jason Kidd.

  • danpowers

    (to me it hurts to argue in favor of kidd lol)

    1. thats a valid point i didnt know

    2. wont buy too much into that as stockton played stockalone all the time and kidd spent more of his career during the times of low pace and low scoring. stockton would be the first one to say that stats can be pretty misleading. i dont remember his direct quote about stats when he was once asked about his statistical output in either steals or assists (google didnt help neither finding his statements) but it was pretty much downplaying the numbers. speaks for his character, but i think also indirectly for guys like kidd.

    3. in the same way that it was ridiculous how kidd was able to dominate games without scoring.

    4. see pace of their times plus malone for stockton and the guys kidd played with most of the time.

    5. i wouldnt do so

    6. nice stat.

    i think you totally ignore kidds floor general skills, defensive and overall game e.g. being a triple double machine.

    you guys convinced me though, stockton at 2.

  • Caboose

    That last sentence. Bingo.

  • Caboose

    That field goal % difference is NUTS though.

  • danpowers

    the big o? come on….

    all valid points tho. notebook still alive and rethinking process initiated

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Oscar Robertson was a point guard. He was also a shooting guard. Which is why I gave him a fake ranking where he would be depending on how you define him.
    .
    If you don’t think he deserves to be that high? i would love to hear the logic behind that.

  • danpowers

    i only saw him a couple of times on tape and mostly read about him. most articles said and his numbers implied to me that he was playing both positions so that he could be listed as both.

    then id kick him out move the list down from there and put big O at 10.

    i just need to see chris paul play and how good he is. sme great guys in league history didnt win an mvp or championship but are still listed within the top all time players at their positions. to me paul is such a guy (so far) and if nothing bad like a severe injury or an overly nervous zimmermann type of neighbour happens to him he is pretty much a lock in that list.

  • danpowers

    but i just did, hah! it seems so likely to me that i just count on it.

  • danpowers

    “is like going to 2005 and putting Tracy McGrady in the top of the heap for SG’s all-time.”

    i did exactly that back then lol

  • danpowers

    shame on me!

  • danpowers

    ok then: oscar robertson playing in his times was like those kids here playing against… well… just watch it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpMszAqVoZI

    when i think about such a rating i put todays athleticism and overall performance over the prorpotion of older times. as “how would today’s guy do back then / how would that old sport do in today’s nba?”. thats why i tend to give the more recent player an edge over the guys of old times.

  • danpowers

    not that it had the same value but jason kidd’s triple doubles and rebounding edge is NUTS too

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    That’s just silly. There is no way for you to know. If that made sense then how in the world do you rate Steve Nash? Or LeBron James (pretty much Oscar Robertson)? You can’t logically do that type of analysis, you have to just take them for what they were. There are guys from that era who athletically make a guy like Steve Nash look like an amateur, yet, they were nothin special back then. It just doesn’t make any sense to think you can imagine what one guy would do 50 years after he played when just about everything about the sport has changed. .
    Plus the racism Big O was dealing with…could make the argument guys nowadays have it easy.

  • Dfrance

    Hey man don’t let these bullies make you change your list, its your opinion! I demand that you change it back now!

  • ActionBronson

    GP needs to be way higher on that list. That’s the one drawback of playing all the way up in Seattle: underrated by default.

  • danpowers

    its not that senseless. best example are rebounding numbers of past times when most guys couldnt shoot properly, game was at a higher pace, just being tall was more often a reason to make it to the nba than it is today, etc. you think that moses malone would average 20+ rpg today?

    todays guys are normally more athletic than they used to be back then.

    stats of the old days just dont compare to todays individual stats and i am convinced that it was easier for any athletic guy to put up huge numbers back then than it is today. plus: destroying / defending is easier than creating. given todays athleticism that feuls defense more than it helps recent stars on offense. so id say that if two guys are tied id give the slight edge to today’s guy. you also know that today’s stars face better defensive concepts than players of old times.

  • danpowers

    man i suck at rating point guards lol

  • danpowers

    lol

  • ActionBronson

    Chris Paul hasn’t played a single season with hand-checking. I’m sure that would have an impact on his PER. It’s a different league now making inter-generational comparison extremely difficult.

    CP3 is good, but he is no GP.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    And who mentioned stats? You are just wildly guessing. That’s pretty clear. Saying Oscar Robertson is 10th because of his era is like saying Wilt Chamberlain would have been worse than Patrick Ewing….use some freaking critical thought here man.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    I just don’t think you’ve done enough research

  • danpowers

    lol dont you confuse the sh*t out of me. honestly i typed it down with a subjective belly feeling and not even being sure if i didnt forget anyone. if i mistook monroe as apoint guard while he was actually more of a two guard then thats not about my oppinion – its just my fault that i listed him as a 1.
    of all my top 10s this seems to be the one i thought through the least

  • danpowers

    at least i saw some tape of all listed guys, read about them and know their stats. monroe was a big fauxpas but the rest was my belly feeling more than a cold analysis – which kinda punked me about stockton but i wouldnt call my love for paul (no homo) as a lack of research about others as you also now know my oppinion about players of former times.

  • danpowers

    where would you rank him there and why?

  • danpowers

    assuming the supeority of today’s athletes over former players due to modern training methods and overall talent in the nba isnt that much of a wild guess – thats more of a debatable oppinion. i used to see that differently by the way, but given today’s athlete’s physical tools its just really hard to imagine that former performance is of equal quality. at least in some categories like that rebounding example or inflated numbers due to a lack of defense throughout most of the 80s while many teams were playing at a higher pace than it was common through say the 90s.

    i wouldnt rank ewing over chamberlain by any means but shaq, jabbar, russell and hakeem over him. imo it is also about the way guys played. it seems much unlikely to me that russell would have won 11 rings in todays nba but at the same time i think that he wouldnt be less of a defensive force or leader in todays time. which is not a wild guess but a rating of probabilities and skill sets. there is no prove or what so ever neither way.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Use probability and skill set when looking at Oscar Robertson. He was the biggest, fastest perimeter player in the league…in a time before athletic training. Why wouldn’t that transfer?

  • davidR

    i used to think the same thing about today’s players being more athletic, then i saw this video of bill russell:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWelUNrJUMM

  • danpowers

    he didnt have a dangerous jumpshot which would make him something like tyreke evans in todays nba. posting guys up at the perimeter to back em down to the paint and pass or score there could also work today in some kind of pimped andre miller / jason kidd post game version. i just think that there are less athletes today who he could multilate that easily.

    his stats are pretty well explained by bill simmons in his “book of basketball”. 1. robinson played in the run and gun era when teams scored around 120ppg and 80rpg. 2. robinson was around 6’6′ while most of his opponents measured around 6’0′. there was little help for his smaller defenders as power forwards or centers at appropiate size were rare. 3. the nba e.g. during his triple double season consisted of 8 teams of which – please nobody in here give me that racism bs now – none really employed more than two black players by that time and didnt utilize an athletic training that could have empowered guys to challenge robertson’s physical superiority.

    still, i guess his reputation as a “bad teammate” cant be compared to mj’s or kobe’s reputation as he had to take way more racist bull sh*t back then and this must have pretty much made him bitter while having the reputation of being a perfectionist. so he cant really be blamed for a lack of leadership which i didnt intend to do.
    i wouldnt doubt that he would be a decent player in today’s nba, just not as dominant as he was back then. i just dont see that.

    edit: in other words: 30 -10 – 10 would most likely turn into 20 – 5 – 5 today

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    i mean real research. Your rankings don’t seem to follow a line of reasoning (not insulting you, let me explain).

    .
    when you originally made this list….
    what put Magic Johnson over Jason Kidd?

    .
    what put Jason Kidd over John Stockton
    .
    then what put either Kidd or Stockton over Isiah Thomas and Walt Frazier?
    .
    And what in the world is Bob Cousy doing infront of both of them.
    - Especially after that made up reasoning behind your Oscar Robertson opinion? If you did the whole “how would these guys do in future generations thing” what makes you even think Bob Cousy would be an NBA player?
    .
    There just seems to be no line of reasoning behind these rankings. Seems like you were bored, so you just threw a list together.

  • danpowers

    id still list russell as either no 1 or 2 best center of all time next to abdul jabbar. no doubt. i was more referring to the opponents of athletic players back then. if you were an athletic player back then you would have had less athletic defenders than you would have to face today. this would logically make life harder for you in today’s nba.

  • MikeC.

    I’d use that option all the time. Even sober. It would save car payments.

  • davidR

    oh yea i got you. but you also have to consider what these more athletic guys were doing in a time where diet, products like shoes, workout techniques, weren’t available, yet here they are doing things modern athletes are doing, except 50 years ago.

    not a fan of what ifs, but what if you gave bill russell modern workouts and nutrition? it just makes what they did back then even more impressive, especially considering there wasn’t anyone to model their games after because they were the pioneers

  • danpowers

    “There just seems to be no line of reasoning behind these rankings.
    Seems like you were bored, so you just threw a list together.”

    first and foremost: exactly lol

    all belly feeling. i read a hand full of all time top 10 lists, scouting reports / articles about these guys, saw tape, stats, etc… then typed down that list with not much thinking and the hope it would lead to an interesting debate which it did. im still shocked about how much my “instinct” let me down on that list and as much as it might annoy some of you to me this debate about this list is pretty entertaining and interesting.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    wrong, he had a very dangerous mid range jump shot.
    .
    his stats are well explained? 25 points, 7.5 rebounds, 9.5 assists is well explained? Bill Simmons has Oscar Robertson as the 10th greatest PLAYER ever. So how in the world does his explanation justify you saying he’s the 10th best Point Guard?

  • danpowers

    actually i dont know exactly what role DNA plays here, what kind of diet he was on and / or if he did additional training to what others did back then. it jus appears quite logic hat they must have done something different than their contemporaries which enabled them pretty close to be as athletic as todays guys – so the leap would probably be not that high – or would be lebron james versions of their respective positions.

    what i posted is just what seems probable to me – i am aware that reality in a time travel scenario could be totally different to what i imagine.

  • RayJr

    NFL does too but these idiots still drink and drive smh

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    and your estimation of how those stats transfer is freaking nonsense. nobody said Robertson would average a triple double in today’s NBA. jumping from that extreme to your own does nobody any good.

    .

    It’s safe to assume as a PG who stacks up to other PGs how LeBron James stacks up to other Small Forwards. that his stats would similarly transfer. Rather than shaving half of his stats off because he played in his era. Sh*t, he played without a 3pt line, you know how congested the interior of the floor was? you really think, without a 3pt line, that a guy without a jump shot could average over 30 PPG SIX times? Get real dude. You need to stop being so extreme with your analysis of the difference in era.

  • danpowers

    i just picked one video to back up what i saw and read so far, dont think thats my only source. the way he got his jump shot off and how close that jumper sticks to the paint doesnt make it a lethal jumper that could be used in todays nba – it would at least not force defensive systems into major difficulties to defend that. as far as i know he didnt have a reliable outside shot (from downtown for pretty obvious reasons – e.g. 3pt line) and footage didnt really make me think differently. look at HOW he got his shot off.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCR7OyYIjNg

    because i hold today’s game as the standard and think he would be more capable as a shooting guard (which i didnt think about when i wrote my top 10 sg list b4 the pg list at the jr smith headline – otherwise i wouldve ranked him there). look at most of his defenders in these clips and tell me that you think he would move and score that easily in today’s nba. i really cant imagine that.

    simmons ranks him as the top 10 player in league history, but he also explains why his stats are inflated. i guess that rank is also a tribute to his role as a pioneer of basketball.

  • danpowers

    but… but they were all so small and slow and sh*t …. lol

  • The Fury

    IMO Payton should be higher than Frazier.

  • danpowers

    hard to tell. i think there are valid points that would put either guy above the other.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    haha yeah they kind of were! you aren’t really wrong as much as exaggerating the difference, he wouldn’t have had THAT level of success. but he would still be a monster. could you imagine Jason Kidd going up against a guy, bigger, faster, stronger, and more fundamentally sound? there are even people who argue that Oscar Robertson is one of the smartest (basketball iq / instincts) basketball players ever. i mean, there is a reason, despite his all-time ranking falling to about 10th among historians, that he’s still wildly considered the greatest all around player of all-time.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    and for the record, i truly enjoy these discussions. not ever trying to be rude by confronting disagreements how i do, as much as i know they can and do sometimes.

  • danpowers

    maybe having seen lebron james play let robinsons tapes appear less impressive to me. sure, today we have a perimeter game that opens up the paint a bit, but at the same time we got zone defense and just compare defenders – even mediocore ones – to the competition that robinson was facing.
    as i said, i wont argue that robinson would very likely be a decent player today. i am just not so sure if even a bigger, faster than young and prime jason kidd? – more fundamentally sound? i dont know man… in terms of scoring and strenght, yes. everything else… i dont know. i said in the comment you didnt reply to that he would be backing down guys from the perimeter to the paint as a pimped version of kidd / a. miller still but by facing tougher, stronger opponents than he did back then. hed most likely gace 2 guards in todays game anyway.

    his basics were decent but i strongly disagree on the idea that he had a deadly mid range game (not by the modern definition and standards of a midrange game).
    his frame and amazing basketball iq would enable him to be a monster with todays training methods, i think there is not that much doubt about it. i just see him as how he actually was and played and compare it to todays game and players. its not fair towards former players to do that but as you once said: overall performance matters.

    what most basketball historians tend to oversee in their nostalgic and often romantic connotation of former players is that we indeed got stronger faster bigger etc… there are evergreens e.g. russell, wilt, magic that seem to be very likely to be dominant forces in todays game even without granting them access to modern diets / training methods. others may have still made their impact as decent players but arguably not as all time greats.

    i get your point as you respect the proportion of the former times more than i do- i just really dont see robinson to be as dominant as he used to be. my guess is that hed be an all star in todays nba but probably not that successful that we would have him even in the debate if you put him into todays game due to everything i stated in all the comments prior to that one.

    im also aware that you and also the “nostalgic historians” could very well be right about your guess / estimation of his qualities if we just could have something like a time machine proof lol.

    anyway, ill put on nba 2k13 now , put him on the bucks roster for jennings and simulate a couple of season lol

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Dude, you are in your mind transferring players to new era while leaving them with their original skillset…..yes, Oscar Robertson played with his back to the basket a lot.. BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT HE WAS TAUGHT TO DO. The only thing that should transfer in your magical world of thinking you can quantify how a player translates is the physical human being you are talking about. He didn’t have the skills players today have because THEY DIDN’T EXIST. Logically, considering Oscar was so far ahead of everyone in his era, it makes sense to think he would be ahead of everyone in this one too. It would just be an updated version of ahead of everyone. Again, like you see with LeBron James…and Magic before him….and the guy we are talking about before that. .
    You can’t take credit away from a guy because he played like it was the 60s …… Because he played in the 60s! Take Jason Kidd since he’s the original example and put him in Big O’s era…he average 30-10-10? .
    No. And you know it.

  • danpowers

    you know that jason kidd is a special case as his skillset was built to fit into todays nba as oscar robertsons was built to fit into his time (opposing to many other guys who would be just dominant back then but not even a mention in all time top 10 lists such as kenny anderson, tyreke evans, tim hardaway, jr smith, oj mayo or stephon marbury).
    id just take more recent nba > the nba of the 60s and 70s. i am still aware that kidd would probably be worse individually back then than robertson would be today (compared to one another) which kind of makes me reconsider my ranking of big o and get the point lol.

    back to your argument: still, the fact that oscar robertson was ahead of his time doesnt guarantee that this would be transferrable into being ahead of todays time. i see former players as they were and not how they were if they would have been trained today.

    ball handling, offensive and defensive sets, athleticism, shooting, etc has vastly improved and most guys of today are just capable of higher performance than guys back then. that transferring a guy back in time would probably not lead to his sheer dominance like kidd’s case seems more like an exception than the rule.

    i guess the only reasonable sollution to this debate of hypothetically transferring performances and or estimating the value of different decade’s performances would be to divide all time lists into certain time spans and totally cut the cross comparisons. such as 2010-2000s, 90s+80s, 70s-60s lists n dont even start with that 50s crap and get that whack mikan sh*t outta any center top 10 please (not you, just cant see that anymore in general)

    yeah, that human who invented the wheel was probably a big thing back then. id still take albert einstein over him any time of the day, even if that wheel guy would scientificate the sh*t outta einstein if he would have had the same education.

  • danpowers

    lol how could anyone down vote that and why the hell?

  • The Fury

    Agree, but GP is my favorite player of all time so I would always put him higher on anybody else..lol.

  • danpowers

    lol i see

  • The Seed

    First off, he could have killed someone. A regular person is in jail. He should not have gotten a shot over Lionel Hollins, Stan Van Gundy or others to coach Nets. Its a shame, personally when Lawerence Frank will be the real Head Coach. He should have worked his way up like everyone else. Patrick Ewing has been on a NBA bench for a while, he was a better pick. If I was Brooklyn, i would have brought in Zeke to coach. He would have lit a fire under everyone.

  • Dfrance

    I thought Pearl was a shoot first PG before he got to NY too, but I guess not. In any event, I’ll put Kidd ahead of Stockton. I look at it from a fan perspective. Yeah Stockton has the records, more efficient, advanced stats blah blah blah.

    Give me a prime JKidd snatching a rebound from a 7 footer and sprinting down the court to throw an alley oop off the backboard to a trailing high flyer, over pick and roll pocket passes every day and twice on Sundays.

  • danpowers

    what you described was my initial thought. but then at a second glance, the longevity of stockon is just incredible. at the end of the day i can have it either way as i didnt root for any of the two. kidd’ style of play was more entertaining also for an objective observer, no doubt.

  • Evan Boland

    Nash way too low

  • Evan Boland

    Yeah CP3 over GP and Nash??

  • Evan Boland

    And he’s rarely healthy for a full season.

  • danpowers

    imo defense is also a part of the game…

  • Evan Boland

    That’s not an opinion, that’s a fact. But he was the MVP for 2 seasons for a reason. He single handed changed the culture of a team and turned them into the best team in the L. 40-50-90. Did you see those Suns records? 2 time MVP. How many other MVP’s are on this list of yours?

  • danpowers

    imo his 2 mvps are quite debatable and what you posted are the reasons why i put him in there at all

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