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Friday, September 27th, 2013 at 10:45 am  |  252 responses

Derrick Rose Explains Belief That He’s the Best Player in the NBA


Chicago Bulls superstar point guard Derrick Rose made a few waves this summer when he stated that he’s the NBA’s top dog. Rose recently broke down the thinking that inspires such self-confidence in a chat with MTV: “Do you think you have more to prove this season than you have in seasons past? ‘Not at all. My job is to go out there and play the same way. I could care less what people say about me. Play aggressive and help put my team in the best situation to win.’ You’re coming off an injury, but you’ve also bulked up. Are you expecting the same number of drives to the hoop? ‘I’m really trying to have a game where you pick your poison. If you let me shoot, I’m going to shoot. If your hands are down, I’m definitely going to shoot. Or, if you play me a certain way, I’m going to get to the lane or get to the hole and shoot my floater.’ How would you define a successful season for the Chicago Bulls? ‘I mean, a championship, that’s everyone’s goal. But I think for us, coming together as quickly as possible as a team.’ [...] Do you consider yourself the best player in the league? ‘I believe so. I believe if you’re any franchise player, any pro athlete and you don’t believe you’re the best player in the league, the owner should fire you or you should retire. You should have that confidence that you’re the best — or you want to be the best — or you shouldn’t be playing that sport or doing what you’re doing.’”

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  • AboveYou

    Derrick, I think you mean you *couldn’t care less, not could. ‘Could’ implies that you care significantly, and that it would be better to care less.

    Anyway, I hope he comes back better than ever. I’d like to see the Bulls eliminated from the playoffs at full strength :)

  • RKJ92

    Lol! he’s not even the best player in his position.. he needs to slow down his mouth.

  • Cortez Mack

    I was going to say the same thing until I realized that the statement is true as he originally said it despite his intended meaning.

    He does care.

  • danpowers

    co-sign

  • pposse

    just keep that “we are all witnesses” t shirt on when you watch Rose play this year..everyone knows you holding atleast 3 of those.

  • thebossman15

    dude kill urself, put any pg in front of d-rose and he will destroy him lets be real

  • RKJ92

    For the last time pposse I AM NOT A H-E-A-T F-A-N PLEASE GET IT THROUGH THAT TINY BRAIN OF YOURS. Thank you.

  • RKJ92

    LOL, so you would rather have Derrick Rose over Chris Paul? you Chicago fans are so butt-hurt when all I did was tell the truth.

  • pposse

    yes but all lebron fans come equipped with witness t shirts. they got the black one black print, the black on gold print, even the ones with glitter. Any one of those will suffice

  • RKJ92

    I do not care that much about him.. I really don’t.. its a game of basketball, not a game of one person vs. everybody, something a Kobe fan (except LakeShow) just wouldn’t understand..

  • pposse

    lol im just saying, just watch out for them Bulls. If you get league pass make sure you watch your fair share of Bulls games. I am confident that an intelligent man like yourself will change your stance on this in time.

  • thebossman15

    what has cp3 done that d-rose cant? make it to the conference finals? win an mvp? oh wait..

  • AboveYou

    True true

  • Cortez Mack

    Yeah, I’ll take Rose in a head to head matchup.

  • RKJ92

    I will have league pass, and I promise you I will watch Bull games ;)

  • straight cake

    Derrick Rose is the best PG in the NBA when healthy.

  • RKJ92

    You kill me, I cannot even believe I am having this conversation right now..

  • RKJ92

    No he isn’t.. -.-

  • Feez_22

    I’ve said this before and i will say this again.

    Judging an nba point guard is similar to judging a quarterback where you judge the player’s talent and cerebral ability on the court together to seeing who is the best. Other positions can be determined by production alone but an NBA point guard has more responsibilities than that and should be judged accordingly.

    Is derrick rose the best talent playing at the PG position? I would say so. It’s between him and westbrook and i’d say rose has the edge there talent wise. However, is rose the best pg in terms of being a floor general, setting up teammates, knowing plays before they happen and overall bball IQ wise? I’d say no. I think this goes to chris paul.

    I like the pass first guy over the shoot first guy mostly. Same with me liking the pass first pocket quarterback over the run first scrambling qb. It is what it is. However, this is all based on the rose we saw in 2010-2011 and 2011-2012. If rose’s IQ got better and he is better at setting up teammates this go around then he can truly be the #1 pg in the game… we’ll see since i can’t predict the future.

  • AboveYou

    Very very well said. It’s really about preference for which type of pg you like, and need your team to have.

  • straight cake

    Former NBA League MVP and only other MVP not named Lebron James in the past 5 years.

  • Saleem Rainman

    What did he say that was wrong ? He just said every franchise player should think they’re the best in the L. Dont you agree?

  • danpowers

    he newer was and i dont see him being that anytime soon.

  • danpowers

    he wasnt really the undisputed mvp back then, there are quite some reasonable arguments that james and howard deserved it more that year. just sayin…

  • RKJ92

    Because an accolade changes career numbers? Chris Paul can give any given team an extra 14 wins when he joins them, look at what he did for the Clippers.. they were bottom dwellers before his arrival and now they’re competing. Any rational basketball fan has Chris Paul as the 3rd, 4th best basketball player in the league right now.

  • danpowers

    ….and the best point guard – right now

  • danpowers

    “what has cp3 done that d-rose cant?”
    i dont know what d-rose actually cant or can do, but what cp3 has done so far is simple: he played his position better than rose or any other point guard during the last years (barring injuries) – plain and simple.

    in case you didnt know: team success depends on more tangibles than just one player.

  • RKJ92

    But it’s fallacy, I don’t agree to players saying this when there isn’t anything to justify the gap between him, and the 2 best players in this league in LeBron James, and Kevin Durant respectively. I don’t mind a player being cocky, or thinking they can bring a team into contention, but when your stating something that just isn’t true it’s a whole different story, and I hope you can understand that.

  • RKJ92

    By a mile, Chris Paul is a machine..

  • RKJ92

    Taken straight from my own thoughts, you did well with this.

  • Saleem Rainman

    I agree that he isnt even the best player at his position, he isnt. He’s never been imo. But the way he is looking at it is that you gotta have that confidence in urself, he didnt go comparing himself to LeBron or Durant or nothing.

  • LP @ThisisEther

    anytime soon??? don’t go to far, he was top 3 when he left….

  • straight cake

    What has he done in the playoffs lately? he has never gotten past the 2nd round, he is good in the regular season no doubt but not in the playoffs.

  • danpowers

    “Bull games” lol. yeah, ive seen too many of those with my league pass last season

  • straight cake

    When Paul gets out of the 1st and 2nd round holla at me the only reason the Bulls have not made the finals was because of Lebron…who happens to be the best player in the NBA.

  • chyea

    So his mentality is to “either shoot it” or “take it to the hole for a floater”. Yet another reason why he’s not a PG. I’d take a number of PGs over Rose.

  • pposse

    bulls last year 45 wins (without d rose)…bulls with d rose 62 wins. Thats 17 wins added with D Rose on the squad..just saying.

  • danpowers

    dude, its not only a single player who determines the success of a franchise. rose has one of the best defensive teams and coaches to have his back. he carries a heavy load on offense and chicago is so well coached, defending so well and working so well for rose on offense that the bulls are that successful even though they are relying on him on offense. he is a great player, no doubt. nobody with common sense would argue that. but just use your own eyes to see how chris paul orchestrates an offense or look at the numbers on how efficient he is. that actually makes paul the better player individually.

  • RKJ92

    He doesn’t need to compare himself though, when he calls himself the best, that’s my point.

  • pposse

    and D Rose didn’t play in any of them, so for comparison’s sake, since you already invested your time watching the Bulls play last yr, invest that same amount of time and report back if you can see the difference in the team with Rose.

  • Sizzle

    Not saying anything. I’ll just refer back to this….

  • danpowers

    rose wasnt the only player who left the bulls – their bench thinned out and they had some more injuries to overcome. its easy to make the same argument for cp3 tho. he carried lottery teams to the playoffs and turned the running gag of the nba into a contender. (about the contending thing: not singlehandedly – no individual ever did. but he is the main reason.)

  • RKJ92

    He actually added 13 wins in 10′-11′, and then added 6 wins the year after. In the time he has been in the league he has given his team 08-09′ = 5 wins, 09-10′ = 6 wins, 10-11′ = 13 wins, 11-12 = 6 wins. I don’t know where you got 17 wins from? I think it’s safe to assume that you just made it up and threw it out there like it was fact…

  • danpowers

    have you seen the teams on which cp3 was during his career and compared them to rose’s bulls supporting cast? come on man

  • RKJ92

    WOW LOL.. The playoffs is when Chris Paul is his BEST, his teams were always bad, but NEVER him or do I need to pull his career playoff numbers for you? looks like you know nothing about Chris Paul..

  • danpowers

    i expect either westbrook, wall or irving to take that crown once cp3 declines. i expect rose to stay a top 3 pg for a long time tho, i love that kid. just never bought the hype

  • pposse

    im talking about the Bulls record…last year they were 45-37.

    In 10-11 the Bulls were 62-18. In 11-12 the Bulls won 52 games in a 66 game season, so its safe to say in 11-12 the bulls most likely would have gotten 60 plus victories if there was a full season. Those are facts. I’m not talking about win shares, or any other advanced stat. But you can see how the team regressed without Rose.

  • danpowers

    i repeat: you know that the bulls lost more players through free agency prior to the season without being able to replace em with equal value and that the injury bug was biting the bulls big time, right?

  • pposse

    how did the bench thin? the bench retooled thats it. So your trying to tell me that team in 10-11 without Rose would have won you anywhere near 60 games? are you crazy?!

  • Saleem Rainman

    Right cuz this is a real life event that actually happened.

  • straight cake

    Iverson had nobody on the 76ers and they made a deep playoff run in 2001 only to lose to Kobe and Shaq and so did Lebron with the Cavs in 2007, at the end of the day when does the player take responsibility and stops getting a pass because of his teams.

  • RKJ92

    Refer to Dan’s post which you completely ignored..

  • RKJ92

    Iverson was also playing in an EXTREMELY weak eastern conference, and you are also now trying to compare CP3 with LeBron are you kidding me?

  • danpowers

    losing asik, brewer, watson and korver (honorable mention: the white mamba lol)

    didnt really get compensated by the aquisitions of hinrich, belinelli, robinson and mohammad (as one of em was basically the 1-1 replacement of rose). besides that they had bigger injury issues than the year before.

    derrick rose had an estimated wins added rating of 8,3 that 11/12 season. thats a good value and ranked 37 in the league. chris paul’s value that year? 17,3 wins added by the way.

  • K_HOLIDAY

    Hell Jeremy Lin did the same thing when he was in New York!

  • danpowers

    lol NOBODY? look at his supporting cast that year that defense made up for the sixers horrible offense and how weak the east was by that time. in the west these sixers wouldnt have even made the conference finals.

    its legit tho to bring up lebron james perfomance here, but nobody brought up that cp3 was a better player than james anyway.

  • RKJ92

    That’s not how predicting win shares works, and yes we are talking about win shares, because you brought it up. You need to know what your talking about if your going to argue it on this site pposse.

  • Chubachuchi

    Its not like he declared on the red carpet he’s the best player. He was asked in an interview, and what superstar would say no. It’s actually admirable to see a guy think like this, he’s confident, not cocky. It’s a good trait to have if you’re a franchise player.Before you got into the PG debate. Oh wait lol.

  • danpowers

    dont be lazy. maybe he understands it by repeatedly getting confronted

  • K_HOLIDAY

    Ppl dont understand what a point guard is/does. You’re arguing with ppl that see hybrid guards as the way of the future in the league

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Man, stop. The 76ers team was ELITE defensively. And that Eastern conference was freaking trash.
    .
    Allen Iverson brought that team to the finals…while shooting under 40% from the field. Using that as an example about the NBA today is not logical.

  • danpowers

    then go with win shares and estimated wins added: chris paul gets your team more wins than derrick rose. plain and simple.

    its not a shame to be second to cp3 tho. i stated it above: im a rose fan. i just prefer to stick to facts and view as many tangibles that determine success rather than blindly following the hype around a media’s darling.

  • RKJ92

    THANKYOU!

  • RKJ92

    Did you also notice everyone arguing Roses case are all the die hard Kobe fans? lol kinda weird how they all cling to the scoring players..

  • Sin City

    I hate these kind of questions, the media response from these questions, and the fan reactions from these questions. If you don’t think you’re the best player in the world, WTF are you training every day for? It’s not hating, but I would never state Player A is better than me and I’m in the league. Kobe, a day removed from his injury would never state that Bron is the best player. He might know deep inside that he is, but the words won’t come out of his mouth while he is an active player. SI 9th rank most likely pissed him off as well.

  • retrobat

    Hey, he can believe whatever he wants. Some people believe in the Mayan calendar…doesn’t mean the world is going to end anytime soon.

  • RKJ92

    Right on the money, nice of you to finally show up lol

  • danpowers

    even the mayan calender just points out one age coming to an end. that end of the world fuzz was just the result of a bad translation anyway lol

  • danpowers

    again: BULL games. no S. u just didnt see what i did here.

    i respect the bulls and rose – as long as they are not playing my team.

  • K_HOLIDAY

    Here’s the problem when you do that; ppl that dont know the importance of a real point guard look at stats and determine those as “wins added” CP3 does a lot that doesnt show up on stat sheets. when you argue with fans of the hybrid guard, guys like the Westbrooks and D-Rose’s of the league will be considered better than the Cp3′s, Nash’s, and the rest of the dying breed of pure point guards.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Well you guys are a little too low on Derrick Rose. His affect on the Bulls really is profound. He’s not a better player than Chris Paul for certain, but it’s not out of the realm of possibility that he overtakes him soon. Rose works his ass off. If he really did work on his Jumper like it seems, I wouldn’t feel comfortable saying Rose will remain on the outside looking in. His natural talent and feel for the sport are not normal. The only “natural” skillset that I value more than Rose at the PG position is John Wall’s so, I don’t want to get too involved in this discussion. Both parties are somewhat right

  • LP @ThisisEther

    everyone else has bought the hype, including the entire NBA……..Westbrook??? Wall??? top PG??? lolllll….

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Unless you for a second considered that it was….I don’t see why this would make you defensive

  • danpowers

    valid point. i just dont think that guys with great court vision will totally die out. even guys like wall, holiday or lillard have the tools to orchestrate an offense by putting up close to 10apg. and speaking of hybrids: its not that cp3 wouldnt be a good scorer. people often forget how good he actually is at scoring because his ability to run an offense just stands out.

  • RKJ92

    Here is where I stand.
    .
    Chris Paul is 28 his time as best pg will be over in the next few years as he starts in on his decline.
    .
    I never took away from Rose as I stated he has given his team a solid 13 win shares in the past, I had only said as of today he is not better then Chris Paul.
    .
    Rose has the potential to be the best PG, along side Russell Westbrook, Wall, and MAYBE Kyrie if he ever learns to play defense, and becomes a better floor general. But that will be something only time can tell.
    .
    And as of right now Chris Paul’s career is better then Derrick Rose’s career, even though he won an MVP award that should have gone to LeBron James that year.
    .
    Can we agree on this?

  • danpowers

    i wonder why none of them is on melo’s bandwagon tho lol

  • danpowers

    youre welcome lol

  • Saleem Rainman

    not defensive at all, but its a meme. seriously?

  • Saleem Rainman

    It shoulda gone to Dirk, Dwight, or even LeBron(I’d have him behind those two that year for the award , but still ahead of D-Rose even tho we all know LeBron wasnt getting no mvp that year no matter what…)

  • uqk

    what about tony parker? just go the finals this year…euroleague?

  • LP @ThisisEther

    You guys continuously say “Lebron should have won MVP that year”, and its the craziest thing ever. DERRICK ROSE’s year was UNbelievable that year….He TOOK the MVP award…He LED his team to the best record, he was undeniably the Most Valuable player that year….I wont even get into stats, but look them up, Rose’s stats from that year were ELITE. He was AMAZING that year, from Game 1 to Game 82.

    Meanwhile, Lebron WAS NOT doing MVP things in MIAMI. They failed. They didn’t not meet expections in the reg season (did they end up 3rd in the east???)…. The entire year was basically about “How many times did Lebron NOT come through in the clutch(do you remember this??)” …and Bump-gate….and IRONICALLY, his season ended with a big THUD. WHY?? Because he didn’t have a great year, by his standards….. Lebron’s year was so/so, and he did not deserve the MVP…It’s that simple.

    can’t wait for the season to start. Rose will def prove it wasn’t a fluke.

  • K_HOLIDAY

    Guys like Wall, Holiday, and Lillard definitely have the tools to do it, but grew up in a time where scoring guards are praised. A guy like Kendall Marshall will never get off the bench in the league. A guy like Marcus Williams from Uconn couldnt stick in the league. Those guys have great vision but are not the athletic hybrid scoring guards that the NBA and the fans are flocking to. CP3 can definitely score at will, but he values being a leader and floor general more than a scorer. Thats why I believe he’s the last of a dying breed.

  • danpowers

    would you mind to correct that cheis paul typo please?

    where have i been too low on rose with these statements?:

    - cp3 is a better pg than rose

    - rose is a great player imo

    - rose will overtake cp3 in the next couple of years, but i think there are some guys working their a*s off, too with a better natural court vision than rose. eg wall or lillard. still, rose can make up for that with scoring but even there i see westbrook being able to outperform rose due to his physique (and because i have that funny feeling that brook is mentaly tougher than rose. just a very subjective impression, i know. but i see it that way judging by what ive seen from both so far.)

    - even though rose is a great player and a big reason for the bulls success doesnt mean that he would make the difference between a 40 and a 60 win team all by himself.

    - speaking of team success: cp3 has yet to prove to be able to win in the playoffs in the same way that rose would have to prove to be able to carry a lottery team into the playoffs with the same impact that paul has. people tend to forget how bad his hornets cast was and that it was the western conference where he carried them to the playoffs. he didnt have a team of the quality of the bulls behind him and was playing against stronger opponents in the western conference playoffs.

    guess this year there wont be any excuses anymore as both are on very good well coached teams.

  • LP @ThisisEther

    Dirk???? this is a regular season award…not Playoffs/Finals MVP.

  • Saleem Rainman

    Hmm…good point. Dirk or Dwight shud probably have been the top two for the award that year for tho.

  • LP @ThisisEther

    You think Westbrook can outperform Rose in the scoring department and you think John wall has better natural court vision. This is why you are too low on Rose.

  • RKJ92

    Ok, well while you live in your world Chicago, the rest of us in OTHER cities understand the situation a little better without bias.. why don’t you leave it to us since you’re opinion is a little clouded.

  • andrewwoods86

    DRose no doubt is a top flight talent, no debating. Drose would not be best player in any era in the NBA, he wouldn’t even come close to wearing that crown. He doesn’t transcend the game at all. Westbrook is Drose with better defense. I know I might get slammed for this(no pun intended) but I don’t think Drose’s basketball IQ is that high in the first place. And that alone would knock him out of any discussion of GOAT. A great entertaining player for our era, yes, but top flight all time or best right now? not a chance

  • RKJ92

    I had it LeBron, Dirk, Dwight, Rose.
    .
    Had I have known Nowitzki would play as phenomenal as he did I would have given him the MVP award to go along with his championship he just played so amazing :)

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    nah, Dwight Howard was pretty clearly the “most valuable” player in the league. The award just isn’t for the actual most valuable player. The Bulls record without Rose vs the Magic record without Howard proved that quite obviously.

  • AboveYou

    Lebron’s year was so-so by Lebron’s standards. He was still the best player in the game, and the most valuable player on what we all know was the best team in the conference, record be damned. Think about it, he was still statistically better than the eventual MVP in pretty much everything but free-throw shooting. You can’t take away what Rose did for the Bulls that year, but lets not sit here and pretend that Lebron being hated had absolutely nothing to do with who won that award.

  • LP @ThisisEther

    Its really not clouded. For some odd reason, SOME of you guy don’t understand how good Rose is. I’m a Bulls fan, and before the MVP season, I HAD ROSE ranked VERY VERY low…

    and I just saw your comment up top, you had ROSE 4th place for MVP?? i don’t know what you’re missing, but……. you will see this year…

  • Saleem Rainman

    Okay, lets get into that. Dirk and the Mavs were having a GREAT season Before Dirk had the elbow injury(i think it was someones tooth if i remember correctly?) Then he missed time and the Mavs(otherwise healthy) didnt play at NEARLY the same level. Dirk Returns, their play goes right back up to an elite level, Caron Butler goes down, and it makes no difference, still elite. If Dirk hadnt missed any time, the Mavs record was on pace to be comparable(if not better) than the Spurs (who had the top seed in by far the tougher conference).

    I remember thinking Dirk shuda won MVP that year (Or Dwight, i was very divided) no doubt…but the whole Hype machine for Rose and his whole “why not me?” for MVP thing was too much to overcome.This was before his amazing run through the playoffs. I was(other than Charles Barkley) one of the few that thought that Dallas cud definitely beat LA in that second round-granted i didnt exactly expect a sweep. But okay, continue pretending he was only amazing in the playoffs that year, and it wasnt an overall great year for Dirk.

  • RKJ92

    Guess so lol

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    I would put the order for the next “best PG in the league” like this,

    - Kyrie Irving
    - Derrick Rose
    - John Wall
    - Russell Westbrook

    — But I would order them today…

    - Russell Westbrook
    - Derrick Rose
    - Kyrie Irving
    - John Wall

    – Kyrie’s brain > everyone else’s everything
    – Derrick Roses drive > everyone else’s everything but Kyrie’s brain
    – John Wall’s natural gifts > you get the picture
    – Russell Westbrook’s overwhelming athleticism

    – I can see any one of them being the best in the league, I just would put the likelihood of each in that sort of order if i had to say put odds on it for Vegas.

  • danpowers

    true, the heat didnt live up to the expectations while the bulls played well above any expectations. that brings a subjective impression with it which blurrs the “as is” performance a little bit.

    the heat were a brand new team running a brand new offense yet having to gel while the bulls were developing bit by bit during the years before. its a little weird coz at one hand was it james and the rest of the big three that made the heat contenders in the first place while they were the same reason for the teams struggle (spacing – stopping the ball – etc) on the other hand: james vs rose in the conference finals indicated the difference regarding quality and being able to carry a team. the mvp award is about the regular season, sure. i was just pointing out how much better james was (and is) as a player. i know the mvp is not about the individually best player (which james undisputedly was and is) and yes, rose was HUGE for the bulls. still: people tend to forget the quality of the bulls defense and about how big
    the impact of a coach like thibs is.

    howard just got robbed that year. the magic record was worse than the bulls record, sure. but just look at how this guy carried a team which was nothing but a bad joke without him to a 50+ wins season and even to the finals the year b4. i dont care what anybody says about the difference in win total between the bulls and the magic: howard was the best player in terms of making a DIFFERENCE for his team that year.

    i would put my landsman dirk into the discussion, too now knowing the outcome of that years finals, but the mvp is a regular season award so compared to what james, howard and rose did that season nowitzki should be just stated here as a honorable mention. besides that – the nba already valued his greatness with an mvp award by that point.

  • pposse

    i didnt completely ignore anything, i brought up actual record, not some aggregate stat that someone else made up used by you and anyone else on this site to make an argument. Its just a counter to your point that CP3 adds 10 plus wins to your record. You can believe what you want, but you would be lying to yourself if you don’t believe that with D Rose on last years roster the Bulls atleast win 55 games…a healthy d rose that is playing with teammates who are either injured or not.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    they won 45 games without a go-to scorer.
    .
    i fully believe Derrick Rose adds 12-15 wins to that team. “win shares” does not actually = wins added. It’s a freaking guess. Let’s not put too much stock into it. Paul is better than Rose, but the gap isn’t big.

  • LP @ThisisEther

    its Not about “stats vs stats”… you can’t compare them anyway because they are at 2 diff positions ……If LEBRON comes out that year and had the year he had LAST year (or even the year before), he would have won MVP. His play would trump all the hate…..Point blank, it wasn’t his year….

  • danpowers

    co-sign

  • danpowers

    im a rose fan and i like the bulls. i understand what rose did for the bulls – im just not blind on what others did elsewhere at the same time.

  • pposse

    okay so with D Rose last year the bulls don’t get 55 wins. You can believe that all you want, but thats complete bologne.

  • RKJ92

    Couldn’t agree more.. man it hurts that John Wall doesn’t have a solid/consistent jumper yet though.. he could be SO good I just really want him to pan out he’s only 22 he has time I would love to see him flourish.

  • Guest

    irving? wasnt defense part of the game, too? even for point guards?

  • LP @ThisisEther

    I’m more interested in the records when the guys DID play… and dwight avged 5.9 TOs a game, stop it…

  • RKJ92

    He’s saying in the future though Dan, as in Kyrie would have time to get better with his defense.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    well it is pretty funny if you aren’t some kind of Bulls/Derrick Rose homer…..so get over it. if you aren’t defensive, then why say anything? oh, because your defensive. my bad.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    he made huge strides from year 1 to year 2. and he’s smarter than everyone else.

  • danpowers

    just wait for johnny boy to add a jumper to his game. ohhh how pale the rest of the pack will look then. that maybe wouldnt let kyries brain look pale but his bad defense would let a guy like wall shine in a head to head matchup

  • pposse

    okay then don’t get league pass

  • RKJ92

    ^ This; and you’re looking at a PG who could possibly join the 50-40-90 club.

  • Wings23

    I think Paul and Rose are 1a and 1b in terms of regular season point guards. But Paul is regressing and Rose is getting better. Rose didn’t even play last year so lets wait until they’ve both played this year to make any type of judgement. From they way people are talking about what Rose has done in the off season I wouldn’t be surprised if he does surpass Paul within the next year or two.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    oh, ok. let’s make up stats! that’s a fun way to seem like we are looking at this subjectively.
    .
    make a legitimate argument why Rose was more valuable then Dwight that season. And i will squash it like a tiny little bug. With facts.
    .
    go ahead, use some actual facts. Not made up stats that just make you look like a Derrick Rose fanboy.

  • Saleem Rainman

    Right. Cuz my posts on this thread point to me being a Derrick Rose homer.-_- Why cant i just think that the meme is stupid without being labelled as something?

  • danpowers

    we are about their upside which means a prediction of how they will do in a couple of years when paul will start to decline to the point where another point guard will take over as the best in the game. right now rose is the second best pg or top 3 to equal westbrook (remember: defense is also a part of the game).

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    yeah? how many guys have just magically developed an elite jump shot? any? ok then. i’ll stick to what is more likely to happen.

  • AboveYou

    Stats be damned, Lebron was a better player than Rose that year, same as any other year since Rose came into the league. Period. He was the best player in the league. It wasn’t his year in large part due to his image, but not because Rose was a better player than him. Now if you want to argue that Rose was more VALUABLE to his team than Lebron was to the Heat, that may be a legit argument. But anything else is pure fan based nonesense.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    you didn’t say “that’s stupid.”
    .
    you pointed out that it didn’t actually happen….like anyone thought it did?
    .
    did you stand up after The Lion King and say, “right, cuz this is a real life event that actually happened?” — No? Ok. What’s the difference?

    oh, you are defensive about Derrick Rose. Nevermind.

  • danpowers

    i can live with that. i see that number of estimated wins added quite reasonable in paul’s case tho. i even think that 17 is a pretty humble guess.

  • RKJ92

    To my memory Jason Kidd, LeBron, Michael Jordan, after that i’m stuck lol

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Jason Kidd was never elite. He hit a high % of spot up 3′s. If John Wall wants to become the best PG in the league, becoming a spot up jump shooter is about the last thing that matters.
    .
    Jordan was always elite from mid range. It was once he got to 23 feet that he started to struggle. Look at his 3pt % in 1995 — the one year Jordan played w/ the shorter 3pt line.
    .
    I’ll give you LeBron…..is that something you want to bank on happening to Mr Open Run, John Wall?

  • Saleem Rainman

    Not exactly…

    But this meme was posted as reference to why LeBron is better than
    Rose. But this didnt actually happen, so what does it prove? There are
    like a million different ways you can say Lebron is better than
    Rose(which wud be true) that are factual rather than a fictional and
    stupid meme.

    That is all.

    P.S The Lion King was the shyt.

  • AboveYou

    Dude, it’s not that serious. You’re getting analytical over a meme. Think about that for a second…A meme.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    so you posted this meme then? how do you know why it was posted?
    .
    IT IS A JOKE.
    .
    Do jokes have to prove something? Have you ever heard a joke before? or nah?

  • RKJ92

    No it wasn’t for argument sake it was just the only players I could think of with vastly improved shooting lol it was kind of to make your point above. To MY memory I can only think of these 3 players with a much improved jump shot. That’s literally how often a player improves their shooting.. either you have it or you don’t.

  • Saleem Rainman

    Because it was stated

    “Im saying anything, i’ll just refer back to this”…

    And yeah its a joke kool, but i was just stating that it was stupid.

  • Slick Ric

    We’re still having this conversation about Rose being the best PG? CP3 couldn’t even prove himself to be better than Tony Parker these last two seasons.
    PG order: Rose, Parker, CP3, Westbrook, Rondo, Williams….

  • RKJ92

    I’m officially adding Kawhi Leonard(although not elite), and Tony Parker to the list as well lol

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    no you were stating that it didn’t actually happen. stating that it was stupid would be to say, literally, “that’s stupid” — we aren’t going to assume to know what you are talking about. just like you shouldn’t assume to know why sizzle posted that meme.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    you just said this….after a season where Derrick Rose did not play a single game.
    .
    .
    think about it. deeply.

  • Sizzle

    As the poster of the above meme, it was a joke. But Saleem my man, you didn’t have to take it to heart!

  • danpowers

    lets assume rose and westbrook return as their old selves from their recent injuries: yes, westbrook can outperform rose in scoring. he will have to anyway if the thunder want to stay contenders. he even had a 40 point game against the freaking miami heat defense in the nba finals. his last two seasons with averages of above 23ppg imply that this wasnt a fluke.

    rose had his 25ppg season as the bulls primary offensive weapon in a year when everything went well for the franchise (was actually a joy to watch the team). that was 2 years ago. while rose had to deal with nagging and then a severe injury westbrook was maturing as a player. dont expect the gap between those two to be that big whenever wesbrook is back at a 100%. rose is working on his game like a mad man. he is just not the only one out there doing it.

    yes, wall has better court vision than rose, he just played in a horrible surrounding without veteran leadership or a coach / organization being able to give their team a direction. when wallcreturned from injury last season the wizards were on pace to be a playoff team. wall did more than just driving to the hoop to contribute to that and he didnt get his max deal for no reason (was that a double negation? lol)

  • Saleem Rainman

    Its stupid cuz that didnt actually happen, hence that cant be the reason a person believes LeBron is better than him.

  • Saleem Rainman

    lmao, at this point its more about arguing aimlessly cuz its fun. The nbk special.

  • RKJ92

    I lol’d

  • danpowers

    as nbk wrote above: im fine with anyone giving rose a 12-15 wins added. i just refered to hollinger stats here. given the lack of a second prime scorer on his team that double digit wins added seems pretty reasonable.

    just admit that the amount of wins added by howard (that rose mvp year) was consideribly higher. so was paul’s (at least slightly). not so sure about james as the heat have wall and bosh but lets not act here as if james wasnt clearly the best player in the game or he didnt carry rubbish like the cavs to the finals almost by himself.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    SO EVERY WORK OF FICTION EVER IS STUPID BECAUSE IT DOESN’T PROVE LEBRON IS BETTER THAN DERRICK ROSE!?!?!?!

  • Saleem Rainman

    When did i state that?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    When did sizzle state this,
    .
    “that cant be the reason a person believes LeBron is better than him.”
    .
    you see how that works? just giving you some of your own medicine. it tastes awful huh?

  • danpowers

    thats why we let him walk lol

  • Saleem Rainman

    Not really. He posted a meme about Rose being scared of LeBron, and basically said he doesnt need to say anything, he’ll just refer to the meme. You just gotta connect the dots to see what he meant

    Where as with my statement, which was about a specific thing, the post, or meme, you turned into a very broad general statement.

  • danpowers

    we are talking about a 2 to 3 years span here right? guys like payton, parker or lebron james didnt really develop a steve nash long range game, but at least some star players develop jump shots that defenders have to respect. i dont see why john wall shouldnt be able to develop a decent mid range game or the ability to knock down a three every once in a while within the next few years.

  • danpowers

    gary payton, tony parker. heck, even tyreke evans started to knock down a three every once in a while last season lol

  • pposse

    im a bulls fan, that meme is pretty funny d roses’ face on the last part is classic

  • Junior Taylor

    The difference between CP and those guys you mentioned is that CP is actually a great athlete. I’m not talking in terms of running and jumping but in terms of quickness, speed, strength and having a low center of gravity. Those guys were sub-par athletes compared to the rest of the L.

  • LP @ThisisEther

    Most VALUABLE Player…of course I’m not saying Rose is better than 6

  • K_HOLIDAY

    truuuuuuuuuue

  • danpowers

    lol

  • danpowers

    dwight howard never ever averaged 5.9 TOs a game during a regular season in his career. just sayin

  • LP @ThisisEther

    just a joke.

  • RKJ92

    we can’t use Tyreke though because his shooting % is too weak, I’d accept Gary Payton, and already listed Parker :)

  • danpowers

    uhm ok. lets see who else we got… charles oakley added a nice mid range shot later in his career.

  • K_HOLIDAY

    Even with those guys being subpar athletes, they had a specialty (just like shooters, defensive stoppers, etc.) that could bring value to a team. The problem with them being subpar athletes is the culture and brand of basketball is now geared toward the hybrid guard

  • Doughnusss
  • TR

    You’re just saying J-kidd wasnt an elite shooter right?

  • AboveYou

    Lebron pretty much had just as impressive a year as an individual that year as he had previous MVP years. And based on your argument, there was no reason Dwight shouldn’t have been MVP in the years Lebron won, even the year Rose won it. Rose fans just can’t admit that maybe Lebron’s bad PR was as much of a help to his MVP as his play was.

  • danpowers

    john stockton, scottie pippen, tony parker added either a mid range or long range game to their arsenal. good enough to force defenders to respect it. not magically tho – guess that came with hard work. wall might be a prick as a person but ive never heard anything negative about his work ethic. thats why i dont see why this shouldnt happen for him.

  • danpowers

    sorry, but given how you were homing on rose (no homo tho lol) i couldnt know that you were actually joking here.

    still – howard impact on team success: second to none that year. never read or heard an argument against this. maybe you’ll be the first one to find something against this. id be glad to read something reasonable to prove this evaluation of howards performance wrong.

  • pposse

    you can use Hollinger stats all you want. The way I view it, your elite if you can be the best player on a 60 plus win team. 60 is the magic number as far as regular season goes for me. Not many teams get to 60 wins, but the teams that do, all have atleast one guy that is a superior ball player…besides the Pistons in the 2000′s. Lebron was doing it season in and season out with the Cav’s and Rose was doing the same damn thing with the Bulls up until his injury for 2 yrs in a row. IF he can be the head of the snake that brings you 60 wins year in and year out then i’m sorry but CP just needs to fall back.

  • pposse

    lol 62 wins 24 and 8 cmon now. Those are MVP numbers…notice the 62 wins, thats what helped D Rose’s case over everything.

    Every year Lebron won MVP he was on pace or won 60 plus games with his respective team..he didn’t do that in 10-11 its that simple.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    yeah. my bad.

  • danpowers

    that only goes for guys lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time. i value taking a well fitting supporting cast to 60 wins equally to carrying a lottery team to the playoffs. the way paul plays and orchestrates an offense is second to none. this is the first year in his career that it appears that he has a supporting cast to enable him to have a deep playoff run and maybe even a 60 win season.

  • AboveYou

    It’s not that simple. While it’s is frequent that the best player on the team with the best record get MVP, lets not act like it’s automatically deserved. Kobe and a host of other players would have MVP awards to give back if that’s the case. And the Heat finished with 4 less wins than the Bulls. 4. Don’t pretend the win gap was in the double digits that season.

  • pposse

    those 4 wins gave the bulls homecourt advantage. And its not like Rose didn’t back up the MVP by actually getting to the Eastern Conf. finals or anything…oh no wait, they did get there. If you want to sit there and say Lebron James was the best player then and now is one thing, but MVP’s are not about the best player. If thats the case, Shaq and Kobe would have more in their closet.

  • LP @ThisisEther

    WINS.

  • danpowers

    you dont see how that alone doesnt make any sense at all?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    he stated the meme to be funny. the dots you are connecting are only in your imagination.
    .
    both, “assumptions” are equally uncalled for. Mine and yours. Well, yours moreso, as my uncalled for assumption was just to prove a point. Which you are still having trouble wrapping your head around because you apparently believe that your assumption has to be right … because idk, you assumed it?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    let’s take elite way out of context then, why don’t we?

  • pposse

    what about last year? The clippers have the same roster from last yr minus their backup pg but an addition of jj reddick and antwan jamison will get you there?! okay, CP had plenty of opportunities to be the guy your saying he is..

  • AboveYou

    Playoffs have nothing to do with regular season MVPs so you can kill any argument you’re using to justify the award that involves post season. I can look at the same outcome and say that’s exactly why he shouldn’t have gotten the award, because according to Rose himself, the guy who got snubbed shut @ss down and sent his team home with 1 win in the Conference finals. but I digress. The point is, there were other players who fit the argument you’re using to justify Rose’ MVP. Value to the team, blah blah blah. To me Howard’s lack of supporting cast holds the same weight as Rose’s 62 wins with his talented team. Rose was that season’s anti-Lebron. He benefited from that perception. That’s all I’m saying.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    John Wall has had better assist numbers than Derrick Rose every year of his career. Was called a better natural point guard than Derrick Rose by scouts, and by their college coach. THere is literally no debate as to who has better “court vision” – not even a little bit.

  • pposse

    he ‘benefited’ or he ‘won by default’ from the perception of lebron? Sure, everyone benefited from the perception of Lebron that year, but Lebron didn’t live up to his own standards, and got knocked off the #1 seed which his team with fifty times lesser talent in clevland was able to do like 3 yrs in a row. If i’m a voter those are things that I’m using against the Lebron case. Its really that simple, its not about his perception. How did the perception magically change the next yr when he got MVP? Maybe cause he played better, they closed the gap on the Bulls and proved they could beat them the year before in the playoffs. This is all about a new kid getting his props and some of yall for whatever reason are hating.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    i approve this message

  • LP @ThisisEther

    WINS. The fact is, Derrick brought his team more wins. Dwight had less wins. Let’s just say there was a tie, this would be the tiebreaker. And Orlando getting put out the playoffs and only winning 2 games is more confirmation he wasn’t too valuable…

    Also, You are in the minority. There are only a small select few of you in the world who think Derrick Rose should NOT have won.

  • danpowers

    i didnt say an elite jumper. i said a jumper. to me that means an alright jumpshot good enough to force defenders to respect it. james, payton, stockton, some guys i just dont cant think of right now, managed that. im repeating myself, but why shouldnt wall be able to add that tool too?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    winds added, 2010-11

    .

    Derrick Rose = 13.1

    Dwight Howard = 14.4

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=rosede01&y1=2011&p2=howardw01&y2=2011

    ,

    Next?

    .

    .

    There is a large portion of the basketball community who feel Rose shouldn’t have won, but like me, didn’t really oppose him doing so. He got the award because of his teams record, and because it was not outrageous to give him the award, and most importantly, the narrative was in his favor. I had Dwight as my MVP, and Rose 2nd. Even though Dwight, LeBron, and Chris Paul were all arguably the 3 best players that season.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=rosede01&y1=2011&p2=howardw01&y2=2011&p3=paulch01&y3=2011&p4=jamesle01&y4=2011

    .

    You don’t agree? that’s fine. But really, all the stats say Dwight was more important. ALL OF THEM. Team records without Howard vs without Rose said Dwight was more valuable. On-Court/Off-Court numbers said Dwight was more valuable. Literally, everything there is that fits into the definition of “value” says Dwight carried more of it for the Magic.
    .
    So get over it that people disagree. Those people aren’t wrong. In fact, once you take out the narrative, the argument for Rose over Howard pales in comparison.

  • pposse

    its funny though, i dont think i necessarily agree with the notion that its all about taste. If thats the case, then why is the NFL turning into an option league? And why wasn’t Chris Paul drafted #1? Why wasn’t he the first pg drafted then? I hear what your saying, but I don’t think its about taste, the league values scoring pg’s more, they have a bigger upside.

  • danpowers

    plenty of opportunities? what are you referring to? did you consider the teams he was facing in the playoffs and the quality of the hornets rosters he was on? i dont think so.

    the difference besides what you stated? the clips also added coach rivers and dudley. that changes the architecture of the supporting cast and style of play. plus griffin and jordan have one more year unde their belts. collison is a decent back up point guard, too. that is definitely an improvement over last year.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    I didn’t say Wall won’t become an “ok” shooter like Payton was. But it’s going to take more than that for him to be the best PG in the league…which is the whole point of this debate….

  • pposse

    lol losing drew bledsoe does not improve your team! he does everything dudley and collison can do in one person! this all sounds like excuses, which is typical when dealing with cp3 fans. Even if this year’s clips team is better, they are slightly better, they would be slighly better nothing vast abou it.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    even the wins argument doesn’t work. Derrick Rose didn’t add more wins to his much more well rounded basketball team. It’s freaking stupid to argue he did.

  • danpowers

    they added collison. that wont equal what bledsoe will do for the suns this year but what he did for the clips last year – at least when you put it in perspective that they also added dudley and reddick. jamison is just a little extra that i think wont change much.

    a huge upgrade tho is rivers as the coach. if somebody ever gets griffin to defend properly it will be rivers (or thibs but that guy is coaching some team in the east).
    i think you underestimate the influence of proper coaching. del negro was a bad joke – expect rivers to get a little more out of this group. given how good the clips showed they can be even under del negro i expect them to be a contender this year.

  • danpowers

    i see. in my oppinion this will be a crucial one tho.

  • pposse

    fine i’ll give you the coaching point. I do agree proper coaching should help, but see this is also where the hypocrisy with CP comes into play. Everyone was saying how CP should have been coach of the year last yr and this that since Del Negro wasn’t good at his job, but yet its CP and the Clips who need a solid coach. This is another thing in which I believe Rose outshines CP, the intangibles. No one can say for sure, but what we do know is that nothing negative has come out of any of the Bulls players about D Rose, while last yr there were rumors of BG and Jordan getting tired of hearing CP.

  • Doughnusss

    If this isn’t convincing enough then I don’t know what is

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    right? i didn’t mean to make it seem like i thought he’d be a trash jump shooter his whole life. if he is going to be like that, he needs to come to Phoenix, i’ll fix that sh*t in one summer. (offer is still on the table Rajon), just i am not COUNTING on him becoming good enough as a shooter to become the top dog in the PG ranks.

  • AboveYou

    You clearly have no clue about Public Relations or the power of it.

    You keep saying Lebron played better so he won MVP the next year. By implication of that statement you’re saying Rose was a better player than Lebron in the year he won MVP. ONCE AGAIN, Lebron’s play was better than everyone’s in the league, including Rose, the year Rose won it. To that point it was his best individual season, which was superior to the MVP’s. The problem was that he was the country’s well documented most hated athlete.

    Your arguments are inconsistent. Did Rose win because he played better than Lebron? Or did Rose win simply because he was the best player on the team with the best record (which still wasn’t the best team)? No one is hating on Rose. No one said he sucked that season. You are just too much of a Rose fan to think clearly.

  • pposse

    lol that last sentence right there is why its impossible and useless to get into these debates. My only point was that Rose earned the MVP. Nothing else.
    How about you respond to the fact that his cleveland teams for the prior 3 years had a better record than the stacked miami team he was on?! this was the sole reason Lebron was not the MVP! his impact was expected to be immediated, but alas it took a full year.

  • AboveYou

    Do you watch basketball for real or or you just a Rose fan?

    You’re asking me why a team in it’s first season with 3 first options, two of which play the same style and both dominate the ball, didn’t get the same amount of regular season wins as Lebron’s Cleveland teams? Those same teams that had the same core for several seasons? C’mon. You were right about these debates being pointless…with you lol.

    FYI Lebron’s impact was immediate. Miami automatically had a better record, and they dismissed the Bulls on the way to the Finals. We’re talking about 4 wins here. Don’t get carried away.

  • pposse

    If Lebron’s impact was immediate, they would have won the ship and best record in the league, cause that is the impact he has!

    NO i was asking you/telling you that a team with the two best players in the L from the yr before underachieved. They didn’t underachieve? Then how come vegas had them odds on favorite to win the championship? Tell me genius. Meanwhile there was an MVP caliber players flying under the radar in Chicago and showed up the whole season. Your just choosing not to see the objectivity in the stance i have. **EDIT – The 4 more wins happened before beating the bulls in the playoffs and going to the finals, so why bring that up? In fact, if you want to bring up something relevant, then how about you talk about the 3-0 beatdown Miami received from the Bulls in the regular season? Maybe just maybe that had something to do with it to.

  • straight cake

    Steve Nash and the Phoenix Suns have gone deeper than Chris Paul and the Clippers and the Suns did not even play defense at all. I know its the Western Conference and teams don’t play defense but that team did not do it (look who their coach was), at least the Clippers have Matt Barnes as somewhat a defensive stopper.

    But anyways in terms of comparing Nash and Paul as PG’s Nash has at least taken his teams farther than Paul and CP3 has had deeper teams than Nash.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    please tell me you weren’t under the impression that the Clippers have been a contender the last couple years?
    .
    Clippers before Chris Paul got there, 32-50 (.39% win %)
    Clippers after Chris Paul got there, 40-26 (.60% win %)
    .
    Hornets in Chris Paul’s last season, 46-36 (.56% win %)
    Hornets in season after Chris Paul, 21-45 (.31% win %)
    .
    Bulls in Derrick Rose’s MVP season, 62-20 (.75% win %)
    Bulls in season Derrick Rose didn’t play, 45-37 (.54% win %)
    .
    .
    but yeah, let’s focus on a much more well rounded Suns team with 3 all stars / all nba players, and good system. That justifies the argument.
    .
    You can’t use Chris Paul’s lack of playoff success against him, logically. I mean, if you want to ignore all context, sure. Do that. But it’s pretty clear why Chris Paul hasn’t been on a team that has made in to the Conference Finals. Whether Bulls/Derrick Rose fans (the only people who seem to bring it up) ignorantly feel about it.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    they made the finals. and competed for the best record in the conference despite only 3 players returning from the season before. LeBron’s impact was immediate.
    .
    Vegas making odds doesn’t = what you should expect. Vegas’ odds are based on a sum of factors. LA was actually the favorite going into that season, but they didn’t even make it out of the 2nd round……Miami pretty much lived up to expectations. Most people had them losing in the finals. (i sure did).
    .
    Rose was a better MVP candidate that season than LeBron, i’m not arguing that, but don’t say things like LeBron’s impact wasnt’ felt. He was brought in for what he does for Miami in the playoffs. And he completely neutralized the league MVP in that time. Quite clearly stamping his impact on the team and season.

  • Justice

    Hey hey chill out we are human beings we don’t need the first amendment causing violence between us. Guard your tongues.

  • straight cake

    Bulls with Jordan won 55 games when he first retired, that does not add or take away from Micheal Jordan in anyway shape or form and neither does it take away from Derrick Rose or any other star, it just shows the Bulls had good coaching and heart as we saw in the playoffs sans rose.

  • straight cake

    still has Popovich ,Tim Duncan and a deep bench…

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    WHAT? — it is just to show that you can’t discount Chris Paul because he lacks team success. As he has CLEARLY been on inferior teams. It wasn’t meant to take away from Derrick Rose. But cool story bro.

  • Feez_22

    The league valuing scoring pg’s more in this day and age falls in line with me saying rose is the most talented player at the pg position with westbrook being second. I can add kyrie irving somewhere in there as well. However, just because a league values something more, doesn’t make that option better.

    If you look at the current NFL for comparison, teams are now valuing the dual threat athletic quarterback over the pocket passing quarterback saying they have more upside YET it is widely known that the top 4 nfl qb’s ranked yr in yr out are pocket passers (peyton, brady, brees, rodgers). This is pretty much the same thing with the nba.

    Judging a player by draft position has no bearing on this conversation. However, if you want to go there then fine. Chris paul was seen as a pg that was too short, couldn’t shoot and wouldn’t last physically in the nba. Thus, bogut, marvin and deron were drafted over him specifically due to physical ability and upside. Bogut was a big man so teams wanted him. Marvin was an athletic big player out of NC who was seen to have superstar potential (which i didn’t agree with but w/e). Deron was a big pg who could shoot, defend, pass and was on a really good 3 headed guard illinois team (luther head, brown, deron). I never said cp3 was the most talented but talent doesn’t equal being the best. CP3′s draft position is irrelevant to the “who is better than who” argument here.

    The nfl isn’t turning into an option league btw. If you haven’t noticed, the read option has been garbage this yr. It is pretty much the wildcat all over again. It is a fad that will soon be phased out. Every team that ran the read option effectively last yr is ranked bottom 10 offensively this year and have struggled to score offensive points this yr…

    Besides, i never said it was all about taste… i implied my taste but based it on the fact that pg’s should be judged on talent AND cerebral on court ability just like nfl quarterbacks. I just picked the one with the best bball IQ as being the best just as i would pick the smartest qb. IMO, best pg in the nba is chris paul and the best qb in the nfl is peyton manning but if you would pick rg3/rose then it’s cool.

  • Slick Ric

    Oh I understand what I wrote buddy, but you obviously didn’t. MY PG order is based off of the FUTURE and Rose will be the best PG this season, Parker will be second and CP3 will come in at third etc….now think about that, deeply.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    You still don’t get it…….so you clearly don’t understand

  • Slick Ric

    CP3 is overrated, people make too many excuses for the guy. His team had talent last season and he didn’t even make it to the second round so I don’t want to hear that old excuse of playing with scrubs any more. Tony Parker outplayed him in the 2012 playoffs and has been the best PG in Roses absence.

  • Demar DeBROzan

    Loool this Saleem guy got logically and rhetorically roasted by nbk, classic case of the comments being more entertaining than the article itself

  • Slick Ric

    Oh I understand, you’re saying the argument is open for discussion because he missed last season….It never was for me.

  • jone

    consider yourself fired.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Nope, think deeper.

  • burnt_chicken

    I wonder if you would be able to cite some of your previous NBA success story clients to back up this truly remarkable claim.

  • danpowers

    how moch does it cost to get one’s shot fixed by you? i got high demand lol

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Free as long as you can get in to my or supply a gym. Lol

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Contrary to whatever belief makes that seem necessary, there is more to being in the NBA then being able to shoot

  • danpowers

    i agree that bledsoe will be better and have a higher output than collison next season. but just look at both career stats, so far collison hasnt really been inferior to him – even though bledsoe seems to have mad upside and should start to live up to his potential this coming season. but collison isnt that much of a down grade to bledsoe compared to what bledsoe gave the clips last year (still inferior to bledsoe, no doubt).

    add jj redick and dudley for the injury riddled tandem of billups and butler. barnes and jamison kind of make up for an out of shape odom. i wont say barnes replaces hill, but its the overall package of the new guys and how their skillsets complement the rest of the roster: they are more of a constant outside threat than the guys they had last year which gives the team better spacing and opens up more room for cp3 and griffin to operate.barring major injuries that will make them better. how much yet has to be seen. maybe 4 wins better, which would make em a 60 wins team ;) even if not, i would be really suprised if they wouldnt be in for a deep playoff run this coming season.

  • danpowers

    thats what im trying to explain to him all the time. there are way more tangibles to a team’s success than its best player. he just refuses to understand lol

  • danpowers

    your gym which is in phoenix, right? i might get back to this offer as soon as i got the money to travel lol

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Haha I don’t think my services merit a vacation

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    We are talking about him becoming the best pG in the league. LeBron was just the best mid range shooter in the NBA by PPP, I don’t think that’s in John Wall’s wheelhouse. He may become good’ish, but I doubt he develops that kind of shot, the work ethic isn’t there. But I’m not counting him out of developing some part of his game so much to the point where he is the best PG anyway, I just think that’s not soon likely to happen with Kyrie and Derrick Rose still playing and getting better.

  • danpowers

    dude, if i could get a jump shot before i die… i would even kill for that lol

  • danpowers

    got you. its a joy to wait and see all these talented point guards prosper regardless of who will be the best of the pack and when. i might be wrong about my prediction, but i couldve honestly also just tossed a coin. they are all good with mad upside and i just made my picks based on belly feeling. there are arguments for and against either one of them.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Well the tools to develop it rely on practice more than a good coach. You can watch guys and learn how to shoot if you practiced enough. It’s much easier in my experience to “fix” a jumper then help someone create one. The first steps come from practice. But, I’m always down to help anyone that wants to learn. Definitely not many people that even want to hear pointers from a person who doesn’t play/coach as their profession.

  • pposse

    okay fine, Lebron definately had an impact on Miami, but his numbers across the board faultered from what everyone was used to. More than his numbers, the team he was on numbers fell off slightly. Everyone was used to Lebron getting 60 plus wins, a 1 seed etc. I understand that it should have been assumed that playing alongside Wade your individual numbers slipped, but still, his numbers staggered slightly while another beast’s numbers ascended. Couple this with what @ThisisEther:disqus said in an earlier post about the Heat losing close games where Lebron was definately in the center of those controversies, an opening was created for someone else to claim MVP. You like advanced stats, check out bron’s PER that year, it was the lowest its ever been not counting his first two years in the game. Again I repeat, this is no indictment on Lebron or claiming that he wasn’t or is the best player in the league, just that particular year was an “off” year for Lebron standards, and atleast to me it was noticeable.
    I call BS on most people having them losing the finals. You may have called it, but I know I sure as hell didn’t and most experts on all these sports shows sure did not have Miami losing (from my memory). If you did call them losing the finals, i’m sure you had the Lakers taking it and not Dallas.

  • pposse

    I don’t agree with compariing the Bulls ‘without d rose’ to the team CP left. Not being there for a season and leaving are two different things. I’m fully aware that what i’m saying is subjective, but I’ve said this before and it needs to be repeated…D Rose was at the practice facilities nearly every day! This is the ultimate intangible that cannot and will not ever be measured.

    Heres a real life application designed specifically for you or anyone else..you have a wife or a significant other right? What would your world be like without her? She makes you better right like that Neo song? It was probably devastating to see the best player on your team leave, disheartening etc. I know this all sounds kind of corny but you gotta put some stock in that! With all that being said, the bulls def do have a better team than the hornets, but still.

  • pposse

    let this be fair warning, you will be in for a surprise! CP has had opportunities, but mind you losing 4 games two straight yrs in the playoffs to teams that didn’t even go to the finals is kind of weak and ultimately should fall on the leader.

  • pposse

    scoring pgs will be always valued over the distributor unless you have a full fledged beast on your team where a distributor is necessary. Scoring is definately the most valued attribute for any player and is the best option any player can have. If you can score, you have a job in the NBA, its the easiest most direct way to have an impact on the game ie: kevin martin. Most GM’s did say CP is the best pg in the league, but D Rose did get votes as best last yr when he wasn’t playing, he got atleast 4 votes. so yeah my opinion might be in the minority, but its not far fetched like some imply with their posts. Honest question…IF all players were put into a draft pool which PG/player would be taken first right now? I would be shocked if it was CP, the upside for D Rose is way too high. I say this because picking one player over another implies that they are the better player.

    And c’mon bro you sayin CP was viewed as short, couldn’t physically play was the view by GM’s? he was drafted 4th! not 13th!! More importantly D Will was drafted before him and its cause of his size and perceived easier scoring ability. CP can def score and is def a great ball player, but damn he gets way too much love over here.

    Im not going to delve too much about the NFL on a bball site, but i’ve been watching football for 20 years now, and consistently the team that proves they can run the ball wins championsips. Having a duel running threat is crucial, the 49ers were a pass interference away from winning the SB last yr mind you, and that’s how football was played in the past before mine or your times for sure. yes Peyton Manning is pretty awesome but how does he do in the playoffs when he gets ‘happy feet’? Real quick about the option, why woudldn’t an nfl want to run it? A QB literally occupies two defensive ends as they have to keep containment in case of a scramble and the middle linebacker has to keep his eye on the running back. It frees up so much space for your receivers to operate and one on one and unfavorable zone matchups. Last week Chris Colinsworth (my go to nfl analyst) even alluded to the fact that Peyton Manning is benefiting from the new defensive personnel which is geared towards stopping scrambling qb’s. Pretty much these are all reason’s why like you said I would go with rg3/rose as the best in the game. btw i don’t mind people picking cp i get it, but this is a forum we all are trying to spread our beliefs on here.

  • pposse

    “pure point guards” dont win championships!

  • K_HOLIDAY

    Magic Johnson said to tell you you’re bugging

  • pposse

    magic was a freak of nature. 6″9 pgs are not normal and happen once every mayan calendar count.

  • Busta213

    I guess DRose went to the Starbury school of player rankings, lol.
    With regards to his mvp award, I think he won because his Bulls were the positive story vs. the negative story in Miami (with their big 3 considered the bad guys)…..add that to the fact that Bron struggled with closing games that year and you have voters looking elsewhere…

  • danpowers

    you totally seem to ignore the circumstance when you talk about paul’s “opportunities”. he was playing in the back then clearly superior western conference on hornets teams that were clearly worse and thinner than almost every team they faced in the playoffs. i would call it an opportunity when he was on the clippers last year and failed to deliver.

    do you seriously want to tell me now that rose will never come short in his career? he made his deep playoff run on arguably the best (or at least top 3) defensive squad in the league. comparing this bulls roster to the squads paul has been on lets these hornets look like lottery teams. it absolutely makes no sense to compare these situations. not at all.

  • danpowers

    i seem to be practice resistant lol. thats really the only facet of my game ive never really been able to improve no matter how many hours ive put into it. so i guess id really need a fix. never got it to be consistent and now im not playing on a team anymore, just pick ups so im only practicing alone. but this flaw is still nagging me lol

  • danpowers

    lets hope so

  • therichardkirby

    I have to disagree with you there. John Wall actually has a pretty good work ethic, and we all know about his confidence (read: cockiness) which is important for any shooter. To come back from shooting 7% from three point land taking and making as many jump shots as he did last year must have taken hours in the gym.

  • AboveYou

    You keep harping on Lebron’s numbers being down. That doesn’t add to your argument unless you couple that with your guy’s numbers being better, which we know they weren’t. Otherwise, you’re just highlighting the gap between Lebron and Rose, because all you’re doing is showing how Rose’s best season was inferior to Lebron’s down year.

    You typed an entire paragraph that basically came down to this: If Lebron doesn’t outplay himself every year, he cannot be MVP. That’s some really stupid isn right there.

  • AboveYou

    No actually, if you go on bleacher report, si, etc this debate was just as vigorous on those sites as it is here. I just value the basketball opinions here a bit more because other sports sites are just casual observers. A lot less knowledgeable.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    That’s fair. I really hope I am wrong, I love Wall’s game aside from his shooting woes. And I admit, I am looking at his shot development very pessimistically

  • Caboose

    Yeah no.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Yeah I didn’t have them losing to Dallas. I had them losing to LA. I picked them to beat Dallas once it was just those 2, but I was not confident with that at all, because as you said, despite LeBron being still the best player in the league, he obviously was havin issues closing out games and remaining confident. Like I said, I agree that Rose was a better MVP that season then LeBron. I just thought you were exaggerating a little bit.

  • bball knowledge

    ummm yes, being the only MVP other than Lebron in the past 5 years.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Best way to practice on your own is to get a picture of what the “perfect” shot looks like, Mark Price would be a good example. Get within just a couple feet of the hoop (lay up distance) – practice that perfect release while hitting the same spot on the backboard, until you are confident you can do that from 3 feet back. From that distance get your legs involved, try and keep the same release but just implement the use of your core muscles. That’s the best way to “self fix” your form.

  • Feez_22

    … you seriously don’t get it, do you?

    I seriously hate when i go back and forth with you bc you just don’t get what i am saying but let me go ahead and try this again.

    1. I don’t know when you started watching the nba but an elite pure point guard who is pass first has always been regarded as the better/more valuable pg v. the elite shoot first pg. The primary job of a pg is to set up offense, set up plays, be the first line of offense and defense (which means you need top level bball IQ). Secondly, you need to know how to score or shoot just in case people lay off. However, if you don’t do the primary things better than everyone else, how can you be regarded as the best pg? Isaiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash and Chris Paul (the last 6 pg’s to be seen as the best for an extended period) ALL were so because they did the primary job of a pg at an elite level at the time. Drose hasn’t done this so how can he be seen as the best? Mostly, bulls fans or fans of SCORING see rose as the best. As teams like the spurs and mavs have shown, PASSING is one of if not the most important aspect of basketball next to defense. Anyone can score in the nba if they are open due to a good pass or due to a good defensive stop (danny green anyone?).

    2. Draft pool? I’m sure teams would draft a 25 yr old cp3 over a 25 yr old drose. If you are talking about a 28 yr old cp3 v a 25 yr old drose then ya obv drose would have more “upside” scoring wise.

    3. CP3 should have been drafted #2 but those concerns about him were real at the time. if you don’t remember… go take a refresher. Dwyane wade was taken 5th overall for instance because of his slight frame and older age compared to the other guys taken early.

    4. Teams that run the ball win but teams with a running quarterback in the modern era usually don’t. We can go back to guys like fran tarkenten but lets be real… since 1995, a dual threat qb has not won a single superbowl. you can look it up. Not only that but the last running qb to win a sb was steve young, a HOF player. That’s all the proof you need to what this league is now.

    BTW, chris collingsworth is your go-to nfl analyst? WHY? the dude is horrible calling games. He is also a steelers homer which makes no sense since he was a bengal. if he’s your go-to analyst than fine but… i think he’s below avg tbh.

    Now, back to watching college football.

  • pposse

    again 62 wins! plus very good individual numbers. You keep harping on ‘it was just 4 wins more’ 3 of those wins came against Miami! Wins hold more weight than individual numbers anyways, 3-0 head to head matchup, those numbers are better than 0-3 right?. Rose earned the dang MVP just get over it.

  • pposse

    1. lol at the notion Magic Johnson was a ‘pure pg’ – the guy was a 6’9″ freak of nature. But okay fine you want to consider him of the same ‘ilk’ as john stocketon, jason kidd, isaiah thomas. Outside of Kidd getting a ring mainly bc of Dirk Nowitski only Isaiah Thomas had a noticeable impact on a championship winning team. Stockton never sniffed the finals, and JJ Barea who btw is a ‘scoring pg’ had more of an impact in the finals against Miami. In fact, there are many many people who believe Tony Parker, D Rose and even a Russel Westbrook are better than CP3. You just won’t find them on this site, but if you think that this site is the only site indicative of bball knowledge then you are foolish. And btw Tony Parker repeatedly neutralized nash with his scoring, constantly eliminating him from the playoffs. The bulls has a top level defense, you yourself and Thibs btw has said that defense starts with the PG..and who again is the pg for the bulls? oh the hypocrisy.

    2. to each his own. CP was still regarded as the better ‘pure pg’ when he was not drafted above D Will. History is on my side on this little buddy. the upside for D Rose doesn’t change if cp3 is 25 yrs old. He still would have more potential no matter how old they are lol.

    3. he should have been taken 2nd or 1st since he has been the best player in that draft class, but he was not; all this should provide you with some information on how actual gm’s and people in nba circles really value a pure pg. Its a dying breed, and they don’t win you championships.

    4. the option only really came back to the NFL within the last 2 yrs, starting with Tebow. My opinion is that its an overall better way to play football bc it promotes running and one on one matchups. We shall see how the game is played 10 yrs from now, but football is a sport that kind of recycles itself. Fads come and go, you can play the game in a 1000 different very effective ways.
    Collinsworth has good insight on defense, i also like Tony Siragusa and the crew he works with. I dont like the analyst that seem to only want to talk about the qb like all the former qb’s turned analysts and joe buck.

  • Feez_22

    wow… just wow. why do i bother even debating with you here? you clearly don’t know about the game of basketball so this will be my LAST educated post to you until you build up your basketball knowledge.

    1. Isaiah thomas is the only pg i mentioned that had a noticeable impact on a championship team? UMM… magic johnson was a 3 time finals MVP dude. wow… so magic didn’t have a noticeable impact on a championship team huh?

    2. stockton NEVER SNIFFED THE FINALS???? WHAT? What kind of bulls fan are you? cmon now… stockton made 2 straight nba finals VERSUS YOUR BULLS. the only reason why he didn’t win was because of mike jordan. that is the only reason. just wow… you are oblivious.

    3. Now you are going to try and undermine jason kidd’s effect on the 2011 dallas mavericks? really? let’s see… Jason kidd was 7.7ppg 6.3apg in the 2011 finals with a 42.9% 3pt%. JJ Barea was 8.8ppg, 3.2apg on 33.3% 3pt% in the 2011 nba finals. SO REALLY, WHO HAD A BIGGER IMPACT? WHO? jesus christ dude… you are truly OBLIVIOUS.

    4. TONY PARKER??? RUSSELL WESTBROOK??? Who in their right minds thinks those 2 are better than chris paul? I would like to freaking know. Any true non homer basketball purist knows cp3 is better than both of those guys at being a POINT GUARD.

    5. TONY PARKER did not neutralize nash. in fact, nash dominated parker in their H2H playoff matchups. The thing that neutralized the suns was that duncan beat amare and the spurs played better defense. seriously… where are you getting your information from?

    6. THE BULLS DEFENSE IS CLEARLY PREDICATED ON THE BIG MAN AND THE WINGS. how do i know this? the bulls defense last yr was as good as it has ever been even though freaking NATE ROBINSON (a bad defender due to his height) played a ton of point and shooting guard last year. Debunked.

    7. CP3 was UNDERRATED coming out of the draft just as dwade was UNDERRATED. teams UNDERESTIMATED them and would have drafted both of them #2 OVERALL. Upside=Potential. Potential=UNPROVEN. Production=PROVEN.

    8. GM’S at the time didn’t value the pg as heavily as the big man or the wing man which is why freaking bogut and marvin freaking williams went over dwill-cp3. why do u not get this? Just because a team doesn’t value something, doesn’t make it worse. That means the teams made a MISTAKE. the bucks and hawks would tell you they BOTH MADE MISTAKES. Where are bogut and marvin now? on diff teams as 4th-6th options. THINK.

    9.maybe you didn’t notice… a pg that has avg 23+ppg in a season like drose hasn’t won a single championship since the 70′s. THINK ABOUT THAT before you talk nonsense. you don’t back anything up with facts. my question is WHY?

    10. your last point about running qb’s is MOOT since i just told you that the only dual threat qb to win a sb in the last 25 years was HOFer steve young. that whole point is thrown out of the damn window. Dual threat qb’s don’t win superbowls and i have a damn FACT to prove it.

    Ok, i am done here. you can respond if you want. i won’t respond back. i am just tired of responding to a person that thinks they know about the history of the game but really doesn’t. You think you know but you have NO IDEA.

  • danpowers

    thanks for the advice. will do so and report

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    You can also just lay on your back while watching TV and practice your release with a ball. Try and hit the same spot in your ceiling, or just put the ball in the same spot in the air. Consistency is the key to confidence, so really any practice that you can find a reward in from being consistent, do that.

  • pposse

    You have the maturity level of a six yr old.
    1. Magic was not a protoypical pg! So yeah isaaiah was the only pg in recent times with great impact for s championship level team. Btw that was 20 yrs ago.
    2. My bad he got to the finals and lost. My mistake.
    3. Jason kidd was a role player. Your comparing role player numbers lol.
    4.you ha a ve a hardon for cp3 many people believe tparker and russeell westbrook are better. Your soind like an espn fanboy right now.
    5. Show me
    6. Thibs said the d starts with thr pg you did too ironically now you back off that. Hypocrisy at its finest. You red in the face yet?
    7. 8. Wadw was the first sg to go in his draft class. Cp was the 2nd pgto go in his..there is a reason he was 2nd pg and not 1st pg to go and i gave you that reason already. Quit writing essays about marcin willoams you constantly dilute your arguments with irrelevant mumbo jumbo.
    9.pure pgs dont win ringss

  • danpowers

    noted.

  • AboveYou

    That’s your opinion. Like I said before, there were other players more valuable to their team’s success, and 4 more wins plus inferior individual performance doesn’t equal a hands-down MVP. It equals a great MVP candidate. All I’m saying is other players, mainly Lebron and Dwight, would have been an equally good choice. Rose homers act as though he had no real competition for the award. That couldn’t be further from the truth.

  • pposse

    there was def. competition for the award but the ‘rose detractors’ constantly bury him and say/insinuate that he was given the award, thats more or less why the ‘rose homers’ will get a little defensive about it.

  • pposse

    the yr before last they got swept by SA, and plus his numbers were down across the board (besides assists). Hence ‘opportunities’ with an s.

  • pposse

    here go your ‘facts’ about point guards and more specifically pure pgs..please read.

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1249054-why-point-guard-is-the-most-overrated-position-in-the-nba

    John Stockton was selected 16th in the draft, behind one other pg…if pg’s are regarded so highly wouldn’t his draft position been better?! And it gets better…Steve Nash was drafted 15th in 1996 and you know which pg was drafted before him? yes thats right Stephon Marbury at 4, who btw is more of a scoring pg which coincidentally goes to show you everything i been telling you about pure pg stock in the NBA. So tell me how does active GM’s valuing Steve Nash as 15th (which barely even considered a lottery pick) tell the world that pg’s are highly rated in the NBA..”pure pg’s” that is. sleep on that youngin. I just spanned 3 decades showing you how pg’s that can score are valued over ‘pure pgs’ in the league.

  • danpowers

    yeah, how could a team that made the playoffs for the first time in many years possibly get swept by scrubs like the spurs? a player staying below his averages against their defense? inexplicable. i should just co-sign your oppinion as you really got me on that one ;)

  • pposse

    Done cosign just realize your contradicting your previous post. The team was a 5th seed that year. By you’re logic if tje rockets get swept in the second round then it is okay because they were a nww team. Cp fans alwats make excuses thenttakk about how d rose abd the bulls got shut down bu the heat and lebron shut down d rose.

  • JJ

    ” Now if you want to argue that Rose was more VALUABLE to his team than Lebron was to the Heat, that may be a legit argument “.
    That’s why MVP stands for, Most VALUABLE player. God so many people on here are so stupid.

  • AboveYou

    Most especially you, since you apparently are too stupid or watch too little basketball to see that Dwight Howard was WAY more valuable to his team than Derrick was to his. The difference was in the team record, which didn’t even fall off much when Derrick was injured. Do you know what valuable means, moron? No? So shut up and don’t comment to me until you read this entire thread and re-watch that season. Don’t even attempt to talk to me about this subject until you dumb azz Rose stans watch more ball and read a dictionary.

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