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Wednesday, August 22nd, 2012 at 10:27 am  |  157 responses

Mark Cuban: Mavs Better Off Without Deron Williams

by Eldon Khorshidi | @eldonadam

Mark Cuban has been in the news quite a lot recently, making a slew of bold statements. Well, those statements may pale in comparison to his most recent remark, which is probably the boldest of them all—Cuban, whose Dallas Mavericks made an all-out effort to sign then-free agent Deron Williams, believes Dallas is actually in a much better situation without the star point guard on its roster. Um, huh? In all fairness, only time will tell how things pan out, but on the surface, Cuban’s remarks are a bit mind-boggling. From a purely basketball standpoint, it could be a fair point. From a purely personal standpoint, though, one could say someone is still a bit salty that Deron chose Brooklyn over his hometown Mavs.

More details, via FoxSportsSouthwest.com:

The Mavericks owner said Tuesday that the team is actually better off with Williams not on the roster. ”In hindsight, I don’t know if I would have been happy,” Cuban, a guest on the Ben and Skin Show on 103.3 [KESN-FM], said of the possibility of inking Williams to a long-term, maximum contract. “I think we’re in better position now then we would’ve been if we’d gotten him.” Wait. What? ”I don’t want to pick on Deron Williams because he’s a great, great, great, great player, so it’s not necessarily him per se,” Cuban said. “Obviously the decision was to go for him. But the conversation was, ‘OK, once you take $17.1 million in salary to what we have with Dirk and [Shawn Marion], then what do you do?’ That’s your squad. And it’s not just your squad for this year, it’s your squad for next year, other than the $3.3 million mini mid-level [exception]. ”So, that was a challenge that we had because we want to win. Everybody talks about Dirk’s window, but not only would it have been difficult to add players, it also would have been difficult to trade players. In reality, that was the same problem that Deron had. Because he looked and saw the same thing and said, ‘Now what are you going to do?’” In regards to not attending the final face-to-face July meeting with Williams, Cuban said: “Obviously, I had a conflict, but I was texting him. I was texting him. We were going back and forth quite a bit.”

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  • JML-G

    YEAH SURE! go ahead Mark, burn the bridges asap, time for Mavs to return at the ground zero

  • Sam J

    He’s making a lot of statements out of spite towards every guard in the NBA it appears.

  • Sam J

    He’s making a lot of statements out of spite towards every guard in the NBA it appears.

  • ALD

    i understand.. the off the court matter… but dwill and dirk would have been so deadly… o well goBK

  • http://juan.garcia@computershare.com PutUrMomma2Wrk

    ”In hindsight, I don’t know if I would have been happy,” as a tear drops down his eye…

  • http://www.fullc0urtpress.com KHOLIDAY

    Somebody give Mark Cuban something to do so he can shut the hell up! Geeeeez

  • ponder

    wowwwww yet if he had come to Dallas they’d be partying… keep it classy cuban

  • chn

    well, mavs hasn’t acquired this year anyone worth making national noise, so marc cuban is stepping up…

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Sounds like the words of a scorned lover.

  • http://nba.com GP23

    Sour grapes..

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    He is being honest in a way. Deron said that he didn’t choose Dallas because they didn’t have enough pieces.
    However, Cuban is also saying on the slick that Deron wasn’t the game changing type of player they needed. You have to read between the lines a little bit.

  • Dagger

    So I take it nobody actually read beyond the headline. I don’t think Cuban’s right, but his statement isn’t nearly as inflammatory or spiteful as the headline would lead you to believe.

  • http://www.slamonline.com spit hot fiyah

    sick brookylyn uniforms, thought they would look much worse based on the logo

  • Fat Lever

    H*ll hath no fury like a Cuban scorned.

  • Pve_2

    There is nothing wrong with what he said. The collective of Darren Collison, OJ Mayo, Chris Kaman, and Elton Brand is a better haul than Deron Williams.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    suer if you enjoy not having a chance at being more than mediocre

  • http://www.slamonline.com Exile

    He said Deron knew they couldn’t put more around him at that point and neither he, nor Deron would be good with that because it gave the Mavs no depth and was not the recipe for a championship team. He wanted Deron… but the price was too high on a number of different levels.

  • Bawse

    I have questions on Derron. Before last year people were saying he was better than CP3 but this past season showed that was a lie. In a weak conference not only didnt the so called superstar not lead his team to the playoffs BUT THEY WERENT EVEN COMPETITIVE. Check the Eastern Conference out and name another team with at least ONE superstar that did not make the playoffs? Oops now counting the Nets I will now have to say NO TEAM THAT HAD A SUPERSTAR IN THE EAST DID NOT AT LEAST MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. He is overrated. Cuban is bitter but right.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    .Nobody actually thought Collison was that good.
    .
    .Did you see Deron Williams supporting cast? Thinking they should have made the playoffs is blatantly stupid.
    .
    .And name a superstar in the West that didn’t make the playoffs other than Kevin Love.
    .
    .See how easy that is? To make a case for something ridiculous. Kevin Love sucks because he didn’t make the playoffs. Let’s ignore everything else.
    .
    .Cuban is bitter. End of Story.

  • http://slamonline.com Brad Long

    I didn’t think that Cubes could get anymore annoying after winning a title. I was sadly mistaken.

  • LA Huey

    Are those the official uniforms or just what some dude on the internet thinks they will look like?

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    @nbk Truth.

  • disappointednbafan

    BITTER!

  • MirChilly

    Truth is Deron isn’t a game changing player. There are only about 3 guys maybe 5 who fit that mold. The rest are between great to very good to hyped. Denver, Utah, Toronto and a Detroit when they was winning all knows this to be fact. But cuban is bitter. He wanted Howard and Deron bad…

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    If Deron isn’t a game changer, the neither is cats like Rose and Westbrook.

  • Ldub

    If that is true, I can understand the financial side. Yet according to the way the title reads, you would think that he was talking about the talent. Going back to the first sentence, since when is Cuban worried about money he is throwing at players?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    He is talking about talent, to a degree.
    Look, if they sign Dwight, they would still only have Dwight, Dirk and Marion.
    But Cuban believes that Dwight is so good he is worth building a core around. He doesn’t think Deron is that good, although he was willing to take that gamble. That’s how I read it at least. He didn’t come out and say it, but he implied that Deron wouldn’t have been a game changer.
    I can understand that argument. Honestly, There are three game changers in the League, and it might only be two when you really thing about it. I’m talking about guys who make your bad team good and make your good team a contender all by themselves.
    Those players are LeBron and Dwight, with possibly Durant in the mix. That’s it.
    Kobe, Deron, CP3, Rose and all the rest are stars and superstars. But they don’t make a bad team good. They need additional high quality pieces. LeBron and Dwight don’t really need that. They are special.

  • http://www.slamonline.com L.E.

    Most comments here are made because the article isn’t read correctly.
    Cuban just said, that he and Deron wre on the same page and that they both saw, that this years mavs with Deron couldn’t be a championship caliber team, because of the huge contracts of Shawn, Dirk and Deron. No money for any other contracts or trade material.
    That’s all he said.

  • http://www.slamonline.com L.E.

    @ Allen
    LeBron is special.
    Dwight still has to show that. A monster athlete and defender, but he isn’t able to really create offensivly the way other great centers before him did.

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    @Allenp I think you are mistaking about cp3 not being a game changer. That clipper team would have been 10th at best out west. Chris Paul was able to make everyone around him look respectable. I think he deserves game changer status.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    ^I think he showed that by taking a bunch of scrubs to the Finals.

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    @Allenp thats just my opinion though. I’m new at commenting on here and have read many of your comments and you do make very goods points often. Indont wanna come off as an ass on my first comment lol

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    You have to include a healthy Wade on that game-changers list. He led the two previous MIA teams (before Bron/Bosh) that had no business being there to the playoffs.

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    JTaylor21 good point. Those teams seriously sucked. Mario Chalmers and Beasley as your 2nd and 3rd options is a recipe for top 5 draft pick.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Tyler
    Disagreeing with me doesn’t make you an a(ss. I love a good discussion.
    Anyway, I think CP3 had quality pieces with the Clippers. Blake, DeAndre, Caron and the rest are good players man. They would have been tenth because their coach is Vinny and they have obvious weaknesses. But that doesn’t mean they don’t have talent.
    CP3 is great, but he still needs quality pieces. He’s not dragging the collection of talent Dwight had in Orlando or Bron had at one time in Cleveland to the Finals or conference finals. We know Bron and Dwight have done it.

  • ALD

    @lakeshow chris paul took what team to the finals?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Sorry
    Wade isn’t on the list. He hasn’t been healthy in years. And I’m not sure he still has that 2008 Wade ability anymore even when healthy. And, he still didn’t get as much out of his teams as LeBron and Dwight got. Think about it man.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    I’m not saying he’s on their level when it comes to elevating average teams but he is a notch below that and still a game changer (when healthy) in my eyes. The man still put up 23/5/4 on 46% shooting during MIA ’12 playoff run and that was with a bad knee.

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    What about the 07-08 hornets? They were a 56 win team and made the western semi and lost in 7 games. You could make the argument that they should have won that series. That team had David West as it’s only scorer who didn’t need help from cp3. The next best players were Peja and Tyson Chandler. Both needed Chris paul to create for them on the offensive end. He totally made that team what it was.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    I think there are 2 different levels of “game changers” in the NBA.
    You got cats like LeBron/Howard at the top who can carry bad teams deep into the playoffs and at times, the Finals.
    Then you got cats like KD/Wade/CP at the second level, guys that can carry average-to-bad teams into the playoffs every year but don’t expect them to advance past the 1st Round.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    ALD, that was at L.E. in regards to D-Wight.

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    KD is a team with Westbrook and Hardin. He isn’t on a bad team by any means. He also is the sole carrier of the team. Plus they just made it to the finals.

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    Jtaylor21 KD is not the sole carrier of that OKC team. He has Westbrook and Hardin. They both talented players. Also they made it well past the first round and made it to the finals.

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_Gin%C3%B3bili nbk

    Allen, is game changer to you just a player that can make you a title contender? is that what you meant by that comment?

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_Gin%C3%B3bili nbk

    Cosign JTaylor.

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    Braille I don’t think KD can be on this list. His team is too talented to be considered carried by one man. You could see it as that team would be nearly as good without him though. I would like to know how KD would be viewed if he were to be on a Cleveland team during the Lebron era. Would he make those teams better or would be be seen as a Carmelo anthony type player that can only score?

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    Jtaylor21* ^

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    When I said game changer, I meant that in the context of Dallas. With the Dallas cap situation, they need one amazing player or several high quality players. Dwight and LeBron with Dirk and Marion make Dallas a title contender with the addition of decent, cheap role players.
    Deron would make them better, but they would still need a major piece.
    I can see JTaylors explanation, and if that’s how you all define game changer, I’m fine with that in general. I think Wade and Durant and CP3 are definite superstars, but they aren’t on the LeBron and Dwight tier.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And I’m on the fence about Durant. I am enthralled by his scoring ability. But, he doesn’t do enough else. And I’m not sure that he would make a bad team into a good team simple because he can score. But he can score so well! I don’t know.

  • MikeC.

    Some guys become game-changers when the circumstances permit. KG was an absolute game-changer in Boston with his committment to D and team-first approach. He also dragged some pretty hideous T-Wolves lineups into the playoffs. My list of top-5 all-time game-changers:
    1)Bird
    2)Kareem
    3)Shaq
    4)Admiral
    5)Lebron

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Explain Bird as number one.
    I don’t know how we can make that argument. It would be different if he came to Boston with nothing and then dominated, but when he came, Red also made the trade that got Parish, who was a beast in his own right. And they copped DJ and McHale.
    I say
    1. Wilt
    2. Kareem
    3. Shaq
    4. Oscar
    5. LeBron

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_Gin%C3%B3bili nbk

    You have Oscar over LeBron even though Oscar’s only title came with Kareem? – as a game changer, i think LeBron is right behind Shaq. In terms of turning a team into a contender. I’d put Jordan above him too actually.

  • MirChilly

    Admiral???? I can understand your logic but top 5? Naw… Rose is a game-charger. He can lead bad teams to the playoffs, something that deron hasn’t proven he can do. But Deron on a good team can make it very good and if all cylinders are hitting (Dirk in ’11) he can make them great. But he isn’t the type of player who takes a 30 win team to 50. Them players are extremely few and far between

  • http://www.slamonline.com L.E.

    I’m still not giving Dwight that game changer role.
    He is a beast, but does need other players to carry the scoring load for him in many games, scenes. One can argue, that he never had the possibility to show everything in Orlando, but thats something, that will not change in LA. When he went to the finals with ORL he really had some offensive weapons and his squad was a real team, back then. (Hedo,Jameer,Rafer,Rashard,Gortat as decent backup). I know the names are not that big, but they were all ballin’. They of course benefited on defense having Dwight, but they did their thing on offense.
    So I’m not convinced, that he can carry a team in a way, LeBron does.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Tyler, good point. I was on the fence about KD but I’m too much of an admirer of his game not to have him on there even though we have never and probably never will see just how well he can carry a bad supporting cast. I wouldn’t have had him on there a year ago but after watching him play during the RS into the Playoffs all the way to his Finals peformance (which was significantly better than LeBron’s 2007/11 Finals showing) and finally in the Olympics, I’m a little bit more certain in having KD on the 2nd tier of gamechangers.

  • http://slamonline.com Datkid

    MikeC: why are magic and MJ not on the list?

  • http://slamonline.com Datkid

    and allen. if a game changer is someone who can make a bad team good, make a good team great, and can drag a good team deep into the playoffs.. is Nash a game changer? and if so, would you say 1st? or 2nd tier? is prime J.Kidd?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Oscar didn’t win a title, but his team was in contention every year. Losing to Russell and the Celtics is not shameful which is why both Oscar and Wilt are on my list. They had clearly inferior teams compared to some of them contemporaries, but based on their level of amazingness, those teams were contenders.
    From what I’ve read at least.

  • http://slamonline.com Datkid

    lmaoooo @ deron can’t lead bad teams to the playoffs.

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_Gin%C3%B3bili nbk

    oh alright, that makes perfect sense. I wasn’t thinking about the Celtic buzzsaw

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Rose never took a bad team to the playoffs. The Bulls team that drafted him was one year removed from the playoffs when they got him, and they had a string of high draft picks thanks to Isiah Thomas. Kill that noise on Rose. Deron struggled in New Jersey, but before that, he had basically the same talent as Rose and was having the same sort of success in a tougher conference. There is not a huge disparity between Deron’s Utah teams and Rose’s Chicago teams. Not at all.
    Nash never made a bad team good. That’s a media myth. But he was still pretty awesome in Phoenix, and he was a second tier game changer in his second MVP year. I’m actually not as upset as I once was about that second MVP. The first is still a problem, but the second one is less bothersome now. I still think Kobe or LeBron should have got it though.

  • http://slamonline.com Datkid

    fair enough allen. LE I’ll happily give dwight that game changer title. yes he doesn’t score as much as other great centers. but part of that is the team and coach, who really should be force feeding dwight the ball every time down the floor remember that 46/45 game he had against Atlanta in 11? against “dwight stopper” Jason Collins? the only person who can legit stop dwight is perkins and not without garnett’s frantic help defense. One on One nobody his size can match his combination of strength and quickness. w/ the right coach dwight will give you more than enough offense.

  • http://slamonline.com Datkid

    I’ll also slide cp3 into that 2nd tier game changer slot. we forget that he hasn’t been healthy in 2 years. he took NO to the wcf right? w/ nobody but David West and a not quite there yet Tyson Chandler. homie scores and defends at an elite level and his shot is quickly becoming elite. plus looking at him in the olympics he’s finally regained the majority of his quickness.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    My Top-3 all-time game changers:
    1. MJ- those late 80s Bulls teams (before Grant/Pip blossomed) went toe-to-toe numerous times with an all-time great Pistons squad)
    2. LeBron- 07 Cavs. nothing else needs to be said
    3. Kareem- Hooked up with a past-his-prime Oscar and won the ’71 Championship and 60+ games the next two seasons.
    I stopped at 3, quite a few cats that I had in mind failed to even lead their teams to the playoffs a couple of times in their prime (Wilt/Oscar).

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    Jtaylor I admit KD’s game a lot too. I think he can get buckets at ease no matter the defense. But that also applies to Carmelo who is known as an outstanding scorer and bad bad teams. I just think Durant couldn’t contribute enough in any other stat than scoring to help a bad team out. I think if we switched Carmelo and Kevin’s careers as far as year and team drafted by, we would think of Carmelo as this prolific scorer and overall great player while we would just think KD is just some scorer on on mediocre teams.

  • MikeC.

    @AllenP -my bad. It’s just a list, not a ranking. I put Bird first because he popped into my mind first, no actual reason.
    @MrChilly – for Admiral, I just looked at the sorry roster he had to work with, and how he completely changed the Spurs as a legit NBA force. Sure they didn’t win it all without TD, but one season sans Admiral allowed the Spurs to suck enough to win the lottery and get Duncan.
    I didn’t include Jordan because his true impact wasn’t felt until he’d been in the L for a few seasons. Magic could be on the top-5 list in anybody’s spot. He was a tough cut.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    Mark Cuban is delusional.

  • bike

    You could probably throw George Mikan into the mix. In addition to multiple titles, he forced two big rule changes in the NBA (wider lane and shot clock). I know he’s before everyone’s time but he does have the honor of the first true big man.

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_Gin%C3%B3bili nbk

    he didn’t force the shot clock rule. teams playing keep away because they had the lead caused the shot clock. specifically, though, you could point to a game Mikan played in that ended with a final score of 19-18 because the opposing team didn’t want him making too big of an impact. But all teams did the same thing, the League couldn’t attract fans. Which was the main reason they implemented the shot clock.

  • http://Slamonline.com Datkid

    Tyler. Durant is much more efficient and a much harder worker than melo. I think they would be seem they same way they’re seen now

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Tyler. the thing is KD’s better in every aspect of scoring except for post game than Melo. He’s a better shooter (from mid/3/FT), better catching/shooting, better playing off-the-ball, slightly better handles, better at converting around the basket. He just as dangerous with the ball as he is without. Going into his 6th season, he is already a better rebounder, passer and defender than Melo.
    Those DEN squads and the current Knick team will be much better with KD as their go-to guy than they were and are with Melo.

  • MirChilly

    @MikeC… I understood your logic for Admiral, he def changed that franchise but when I think of game-changer, he doesn’t really fit the mold. Also being a game changer is really less about winning titles. JKidd was a absolute game-changer in his prime. Same for payton, pippen, Grant Hill and others.

    In terms of today’s current batch of players, Deron is not a game-changer. His Utah teams was extremely functional and talented. Great coach, Great system with good to very good players. He was a piece of it, but a piece in the sense a qb is to a prolific college spread offense. You can win games with him but he isn’t going to elevate you to super elite championship status. I think that is the point Cuban is making. He already has that type of player in Dirk, so if your gonna add a player like Deron, you will still need the cap room to have a JJ or jason terry, tyson, marion, kidd, deshawn stevenson which they wouldn’t have been able to do. Only 3 players currently fit that mold (Lebron, Durant, Rose… kobe is old now). The nets will be nothing but a 2nd rd team that can get bumped in the 1st rd by the right team. Point blank

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    I don’t think so. They both just score. That may seem pretty narrow minded but it’s true. KD would have been a ball dominant player in Den and wouldn’t mesh well with Amare. Carmelo would be just fine in OKC and they would probably be close to their level now

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_Gin%C3%B3bili nbk

    .Melo just shot 43% from the field last season to score 23 points on 18.6 shots a game.
    .Durant just shot 50% from the field last season to score 28 points on 19.7 shots
    .
    It’s safe to say that Durant is the better scorer.

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    I never said he wasn’t. I think both are just scorers. I think KD could be much more than that but as of now they’re both scorers playing in totally different environments

  • http://www.nba.com/knicks danpowers

    @nba: do you really think durants numbers wouldve been much better if he wouldve played under the same circumstances as melo did in that knick roster / system / rollercoaster season? probably a bit but i dont think it wouldve been such a great difference between these guys. durant is a better scorer but when melo plays in the right system like he did with billups when they made it to the conf finals with denver then the difference between both is not too big.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    KD’s ability to play off the ball is one of the reasons why he excels playing next to two ball-dominant players (Russ/Harden). I think he will do just fine playing next to Amare and on those DEN teams that lived to run/shoot.

  • http://www.nba.com/knicks danpowers

    nbk, not nba. sry

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_Gin%C3%B3bili nbk

    I think Durant would have scored over 30 a game in New York.

  • Allenp

    Why do you keep throwing Rose on this list? He is not better nor has he ever been netter than Deron.

  • http://Slamonline.com Datkid

    I think KD might actually have done better in Denver. How much better do you think KD would have been with guys like Andre Miller, and Chauncey Billups feeding him the ball instead of Eric Maynor and Russell Westbrook? and since KD can play off the ball, he would have done fine next to A.I. And George Karl is superior too Scott Brooks as well. And cosign JTAYLOR… Durant would’ve been just fine next to Amare, in fact KD passes and rebounds more than melo so he’s probably a better fit there too.

  • http://Slamonline.com Datkid

    Very soon KD will be able to do more than “just score” melo has been in the league for 10 years and can’t say the same

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    I’m of the kind that says KD is already doing more.
    His passing has improved over the course of his career.
    His defense is no longer below average.
    He rebounds better than anyone else at the SF position.
    He is one of the best 3 point shooters in the L if not “the best”.
    He is efficient.
    He has a good head on his shoulders and isn’t showing signs of succumbing to the pressures before him.
    KD is AMAZING.
    The same can’t be said of Melo.

  • LA Huey

    KD has surpassed Melo. There isn’t a situation where Melo could thrive and KD wouldn’t. The same can’t be said for Melo.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Allenp about to get me started on the whole Rose leading a bad team to the playoffs topic.

  • davidR

    the year the nuggets went to the conference finals and lost to the lakers, they had an easy ride to get there. a crippled hornets team, then a weak dallas team.
    look what happened the next year.
    also, dirk was destroying the nuggets that year, but had no help. check his numbers. had to be his best playoff series statistically

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Slic Allen is going to tell you the same thing about that bulls team as I did

  • derby

    Off topic ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^°°°^^^^^^

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    I’m not trying to say Melo > KD. Im saying you view KD as you do now if he were to play in Den/NY? Those teams wouldn’t have been much if any better off. If Melo were to be putting up his exact stats but play for OKC would be seen as a more respectable player? I’m not saying change wins or losses or any of that. Just switch players.

  • http://www.xvideos.com nbk troll

    Smart money is on melo. Kd is great too. Also don’t sleep on rudy gay.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Lebron in any top 5 game changer is crap. What did he do the last five years, before OKC choked a title away. Also Melo is a better overall player than KD. KD plays smooth and has no fire like Westbrook plays with. Melo is better in how he plays, at least he leaves it all on the court, unlike KD. KD is not what makes OKC a tough team, anybody that knows basketball understands what Westbrook does for OKC and KD.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    OKC wouldn’t be as good as they are with Melo as they have been the past 2 seasons with KD at the helm, so I doubt Melo garners the same respect KD currently enjoys. It’s hard to gain respect when the teams you have been on fail time and time again to advance deep into the postseason.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    I think the seed decides more arguments (albeit on accident) then any commenter here. Good work.

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    @Seed seriously? LeBron James can take over any game and win it by himself. His whole time at the cabs he carried those teams 100% by himself. Lebron took a team with Boobie Gibson, Drew Gooden and Larry Hughes on it to the finals. Didn’t he score 35 straight on the then powerful Pistons? Lebron is the biggest game changer in the L now. Any team you put Bron on instantly is a threat for a deep playoff run.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    It doesn’t matter, I know what I speak of because I watched damn near every bulls game the 09-10 season and like I stated before, he carried that team into the playoffs. You can sit up here and say that wasn’t a bad team because Noah, deng and kirk were on it but that would be a mistake on your part for not putting things in there proper context. Kirk was on the decline, he hadn’t had a good season since 2006-7. Deng wasn’t meeting expectations and the bulls wanted to ship him out that season, He would of been gone if not for his contract that nobody wanted. Noah was having his best season to date with the bulls and was the second best player on the team that season. The bulls were one of the worst shooting teams in the league, They were at the bottom five in terms of shooting. Not to mention, Vinny del negro was the coach. Rose struggled in the Beginning of the season and the bulls were getting blown out consistently but all that changed when Rose started to play much better and he won a couple player of the week awards and stan van gundy noticed and said Rose and Durant are the two best young players in the league. He also said he took notice of how much better the bulls are when Rose got out of his early season slump and started playing much better. Bulls went on a five game winning streak against winning teams on the road(the only team to do so) and Rose was the main catalyst outplaying Parker, Aaron Brooks, Westbrook, Nash(game he dunked on dragic) in the process. Noah & Rose got injured and the bulls went on a losing streak for ten straight games and the bulls lost playoff position. The raptors gained their position and Rose guaranteed the Bulls would not be missing the playoffs and they didn’t after Rose played stellar enough the last month of the season to Win player of the month carrying his team past the raptors into the playoffs to face Lebron and the Cavs.

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    Wasn’t Ben Gordon on that team? He may not have been a leader but he could score buckets in a hurry.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @Tyler
    See Lebron riders think he won the title. OKC lost it. Go rewatch the games. Also it was 25 straight on Pistons, but happend after that. He got swept out of NBA FInals. Lebron is not a game changer off of one season. Lebron needs to be consistent, because he played better, but OKC didn’t play zone on the Heat, didn’t challenge Bron. Let Bron walk and make layups, nobody got in his face or nothing. KD is not that dude and Bron punked him in the friend zone. Lebron is not number one. Rose is doing more with less since being on the BUlls.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    @tyler no, ben wasn’t on that team, he left for the pistons.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    Team success in the playoffs always shoves a dirty sock in the mouth of the haters.

  • Rainman

    @ allen: i’d liek to bring ap oint up, about ur nash argument a lto of comments ago. Nash took a team arguably worse in talent than deron williams nets, to a .500 record, in the western conference. I have no issue with him being considered a “2nd tier” difference maker. But to say he doesnt make bad teams good is where the myth is to me. Who did he have to work with? he made gortat a 16 point scorer. Who else was there? Frye? lol come on. Dudley? love the guy, but he isnt all that talented, jsut mad hustle, and can shoot when he has shots *created* for him. A 40 year old grant hill? Who? u can argue chris paul can lead that team to .500 too, but what other pg cud?

  • http://www.starting5.com.au NM30

    Lol
    I’m sure they are mr cubes I’m sure they are
    And without terry and withoutbkidd to I’d assume?

  • http://www.xvideos.com nbk troll

    How in the toronto can anybody say lebron is not a game changer…. The dude is the best player in the world. 3x mvp. 3 finals appearances. Finals mvp. The only way you get a resume like that is by changing games….

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    @seed. DRose missed a lot of action last year nd the bulls barely missed a beat. DRose is not Abrams changer. Just a good baller. He won’t ever take a team over the hump. That’s especially true since he tore his ACL

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    A game changer. Not abrams. Autocorrect

  • http://Slamonline.com Datkid

    Look slick rose used to one of my favorite players to watch, and I watched him that whole year too. But *barely* carrying your team to the playoffs, and then getting murdered in the first round doesn’t mean your a game changer at all… Otherwise we’d be calling Melo one. Let’s be realistic here. The only time Rose has gone deep it all into the playoffs is when he’s had good teams around him(he’s actually only been deep once, but that 09 team would’ve gone very deep into the postseason had they not met the celtics in the first round.) honestly rose hasn’t actually been any deeper into the playoffs than Cp3 or D.will. If they can’t be game changers than neither can rose. And this is coming from a guy who has loved watching the man play since college

  • http://Slamonline.com Datkid

    Also cosign lakeshow and LA Huey. KD does way more than just score… The quotation marks are for irony/sarcasm lol

  • http://Slamonline.com Datkid

    All in all I understand what cubes is saying. That having D.will, dirk and marion and a thin bench wouldn’t get them anywhere but having good, versatile players(that he can trade) +dirk and Marion might. But ultimately I think I disagree. Deron would”ve been worth it.

  • Clydesays

    What’s up with Cubes. Did Shark Tank get cancelled or something? Dwill to Dirk would have been deadly.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Datkid….first off, I said nothing about being a game changer, I know that’s what started the debate but I was strictly talking about Rose carrying his team to the playoffs in the 09-10 season . Second, It doesn’t matter whether he barely did it, he did it, period. Third, The Bulls were not MURDERED in the playoffs that season. Being murdered is something like what happened to CP3 in the 09 playoffs when the Nuggets killed his team by 50 and Chauncey was outplaying Chris. Speaking of Chris, he’s the one that has never been past the second round round, D-will and Rose has. I don’t wanna hear the sorry excuses of him not having a team anymore. If he’s as good as people making him out to be, he should of at least gotten as far as Rose and williams has once. AI did it and so did lebron on worse teams.

  • http://www.nba.com Dacre

    So now we have 2nd tier game changers. . . ? Awesome. Where’s shock exchange. . . ?

    Is Brian scalabrine a game changer? . . . Andre Blatche is but for a whole nother reason.

  • http://Slamonline.com Datkid

    1. What exactly are you debating then? Nobody said he DIDNT carry them. 2. Nah. Nobody should’ve expected the hornets to beat the nuggets that year.. The talent disparity between those 2 teams was hilarious 3. And no rose and co, still got murdered. The nuggets had far too much firepower for the hornets but the Cavs for the 7th year in a row had only one guy who was any good…and he did whatever he wanted WHENEVER he wanted against the bulls and for all but one game they were totally and completely powerless to stop him. The 2nd best players on that nuggets team were Chauncey billups and JR smith, on the cavs? Mo Williams and Anderson Varejo.

  • http://Slamonline.com Datkid

    You may not want to hear the whole cp3 had no team thing…but it’s true. Rose and d.will have had roughly equal talent on their teams, including many of the same players and have gotten farther as a result, Cp3 had very little, got injured and when he finally acquired a decent squad, got injured again.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    @DatKid are u kidding? Deron had great teams to contend with. He even made himself look like a moron by saying that Al Jeff. was going to be an All-Star which never happened. Deron is not better than Rose, not when Rose dominates him and is the youngest MVP ever plus youngest PG MVP.

  • http://Slamonline.com Datkid

    Yes Rose has beaten D.will but d.will is still a better passer,better and more versatile defender, and a better shooter from 3 etc etc. I never said Dwill didn’t have good teams. That was my point that his (and rose’s) teams were always better than Chris Paul’s top to bottom.

  • http://Slamonline.com Datkid

    Rose is actually better at almost nothing than D.will. He has beaten him several times tho, so I’ll give him that. And I never said Deron’s teams were terrible. That was my point, lmao That deron and rose had far better teams then Chris Paul did, up until now to contend with. I don’t know what you’re aguing about.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    1. Allenp said it dude, reading is fundamental. 2. Who cares if nobody should of expected them to win, they got beat by 50 freaking points one game and cp3 played with no heart that whole series, dahntey jones locked him up. 3. The Bulls didn’t get murdered that series, the first game was almost a blowout and then the bulls made a surge and got within seven points in the fourth until the cavs pulled away. The second game was a close match through out the game until the last three minutes until the cavs got up to about ten because one of the player got hot. The third game, the Bulls were blowing the cavs out by almost twenty until the late third/early fourth quarter when they climbed back in but the Bulls still won. The fourth game was close and then in the second half of the game the cavs blew the game open. The fifth game was close throughout the whole game, so yeah, they were murdered……3. It was the Cavs who had the best record in the league right? You forgot they had jameson, shaq and big Z as well with Lebron killing deng and they still didn’t get outplayed as much as the hornets did in the 09 playoffs. Cp3 overrated, you cant make these excuses for dude about being hurt and then say Rose has only been deep in the playoffs once like the potential of him doing so again this year wasn’t extremely high.

  • http://WWW.BENNY.COM BIG MONEY

    Everyone please ignore Allenps post … He said Kobe isn’t a game changer ha lay off the crack pipe man

  • http://Slamonline.com Datkid

    Jamison wasn’t used to their system at all and was incredibly uncomfortable within it. He didn’t produce well. And I can’t believe your counting 2 old, essentially immobile centers as help. Shaq could barely jump and it took big z 20 seconds to get down court. Your missing my point tho. The nuggets had an athletic collection of very good to half decent players led by a HOF coach, the cavs had senior citizens, nobodies, and Lebron James and were led by an idiot. Cp3 got embarrassed but he never really had a chance. Rose’s team (injuries and all) was at least equal to lebron’s and prolly better. But lebron with essentially nobody on his squad still beat them. Cp3 lost to a team that was better than his top to bottom Rose and company basically lost to 1 guy and some dudes. They didn’t get murdered tho I will give you that.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    Well he hasn’t proven to be a consistent lone game changer leading to playoff wins@Big Money @DatKid CP3 scored 4 points in that blowout stoppp itttt.

  • http://Slamonline.com Datkid

    SMH why can’t I reply?? I hate slam

  • http://Slamonline.com Datkid

    There we go. An ancient shaq and an essentially immobile big z count as help? Get out. Antawn Jamison was having trouble adjusting to their system and wasn’t performing. And your missing my point. Cp3 got beaten by a team that was top to bottom superior to his, there’s not a whole lot you can do about that. Rose’s team injuries and all was actually better than lebron’s. Rose’s team didn’t get murdered but they basically got beaten to death with their own arms by one guy.

  • http://Slamonline.com Datkid

    And cp3 isn’t overrated.. But D.rose is and certainly was in 2011. Rose really doesn’t do anything better but be tall and athletic, aLthough he has won some match ups w/ him. And i think what allenp meant was that although rose’s team was bad THAT YEAR. Cp3,lebron, wade and others had arguably dragged far worse squads into the playoffs many more times than rose has. Reading is fundamental. Oh and redd? Leave.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    There you go with the hyperbole again about being murdered when I just gave you a run down of the games. Getting murdered or “beaten to death” is not being competitive at all which wasn’t the case in that series, Lebron murdered Deng but the bulls weren’t murdered. You’re doing revisionist history, Lebrons team was better than Roses. Mo williams was/is better than kirk, An ancient Shaq still took advantage of Noah at times on the post in that series. Anderson Verajo was better than a rookie Taj at the time and Jameson actually played pretty well against Bulls, it was the celtics he struggled against. They still had Big Z spacing the court and JJ hickson playing good pick and roll ball with Lebron and cutting to the basket.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    …..and for not do anything better he still gets the best of cP3 and has won every time he played him so……..CP3 is definitely overrated, He’s never beaten Rose, has consistently been outplayed by Deron Williams, even Chauncey Billups outplayed him in the 09 playoffs before the injuries and just one year after that mvp caliber season. That’s your opinion on Rose but I can state facts and show you how overrated he was not in 2011, not just opinion. It doesn’t matter who dragged in far worse squads, that’s not the point, its about who carried their team to the playoffs and Rose has done that. Allenp implied that rose has never dragged a team to the playoffs and was saying his rookie team was so talented that he didn’t need to drag them because they had just been in the playoffs two seasons ago. So I stated that Rose has in fact dragged a team to playoffs just not in his rookie season but in his sophomore season, his first season as an all-star.

  • SeanMagicJuan

    Don’t talk in any way, shape, or form about Derrick Rose to Slick it ain’t praise. I said Westbrook plays better than him in the postseason and got a caps locked tantrum in response. The guy likes D. Rose, really likes him.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    You really think DW or DR would have scored only 4 in that blowout if it was them? Lol that’s all that needs to be said.

  • SeanMagicJuan

    As I said before, the last healthy D. Rose playoff run (MVP), he shot over 50% in 2 out of 14 games. He is a volume scorer who is 6’2″ so he plays PG.

  • SeanMagicJuan

    Steve Francis is his prime was better, just not as humble.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    seanmagicjuan, Rose suffered two ankle sprains, so he wasn’t fully healthy throughout that playoff run. You got caps because what you said was illogical. You act as if westbrook has been killing it in the playoffs every year he’s been in it. He played very well against the lakers and the mavericks(both of which weren’t great teams last season, especially dallas) and had one great game against the Heat in this years playoffs and you think that’s enough to say a guy is a better playoff performer. All I know is that Rose was never benched during a playoff game like westbrook was in 2011. If not for being injured, nobody knows what type of playoff run Rose could of had.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Volume scorer? Westbrook has never shot over 46% from the field while Rose has done that twice……Its even more sorry when you consider the fact he’s playing alongside The best scorer in the league and sixth man but still cant find efficient shots.

  • sg

    since someone asked but no one answered- no, those aren’t the real jerseys. the jerseys will say Brooklyn on them, both home and away.

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    You gotta be kidding me if you think an old Jamison, an old fat shaq and a old useless Z helped Lebron at all then your making a fool of yourself. Shaq did one thing and that was get to the foul line. We all know about Shaq and his free throws… Lebron probably has been on some of the worst teams and still made them go far.

  • -Mas-

    The Mavs won it all without D- Will so why stress that he is not in Dallas.

  • pposse

    “rose is overated” haha laughable..is that why addidas thru 250 million dollars his way? Is that why the NBA had to change their rules during the lockout to accomadate players like him (derrick rose rule)? The only thing you slam commenters can say about Rose is that CP3 and Deron has some sort of superior advanced metric stat…news flash no one cares! Yall still can’t explain why CP3 NEVER in his life beat him head to head. Unlike football, baseball, one man can win you a basketball game…this has been proven time and time. Even these previous posts said that one man (lebron james) took out the bulls in the 2010 playoffs..but CP3 can’t take one game out of 6 against a d rose led bulls??!

  • http://Slamonline.com Tyler

    Pposse Derrick rose plays on a much better overall team. Derrick Rose does not have near the court vision of cp or dwill.

  • http://www.nba.com/knicks danpowers

    cosign tyler. i saw him taking wild shots and drives against two or more defenders while guys like deng or boozer stood wide open almost next to him. same with westbrook. okc n chicago should try to put a point guard next to them like felton / sessions / brooks / collins and move westbrook and rose to the two. i wouldnt be suprised if this would make their teams better and these two guys (brook n rose) more efficient.

  • Drig

    Why is Magic NOT a game changer?? I mean, why?? He could seamlessly play in any position, could ACTUALLY make average players better, could defend well enough. Why not?

  • ThaWindy

    DWill is not better than Rose. Just asks his Utah teammates. Just ask DWill. Mr I would have played better if my wrist wasnt hurt. Something only losers say.

  • pposse

    tyler that argument is silly, cause the last time i check there are no all stars just solid role players who are well coached and know their roles. Maybe thats an extension of their leaders (the coach and D Rose)? Can that be possible? Or is it that CP and Derron are the only leaders as pg’s? Besides all that, d rose even though a pg, has to score. Not one guy on this so called superior team can create their own shot other than D Rose. There is nothing you can say that will make me agree that substituting CP or Derron on the current Bulls roster for D Rose makes that bulls team better.

  • Drig

    Wait, what happened to Boozer exactly once he left DWill for Rose?? What happened to Utah exactly as soon as DWill left? What happened to the Bulls exactly when Rose sat out for majority of last season? Who had the better team? How is Rose a better PG than DWill anyways? Not. Even. Close.

  • pposse

    danpowers both the bulls and thunder were like #1 and #2 in their respective conference…how much better do you guys think these teams need to be? They are championship contending teams whether you want to admit that or not. Check vegas odds if you have to. Lebron and co. are flawed, both of these teams just need to find a way to exploit it over a 7 game series.

  • pposse

    drig, boozer got paid is what happened.

  • pposse

    and your argument almost has merrit about the bulls season, but what happened when the team had final confirmation that D Rose was out for the rest of the season? Oh yeah thats right, reality hit, and we lost to an 8th seed. But Derron Williams would have brought us over the hump and help us beat Miami right? Why don’t u explain to me why d rose is the one with the 250 million dollar deal and not your precious derron williams? Is it cause he is more charismatic? I have corporations backing me, and the NBA backing me and my claims…you have NBK and AllenP and Chinese Opp and the likes of this slam message board..enough said

  • Drig

    @pposse…….So who exactly on Deron’s teams could so far create their own shot other than Al J who didn’t spend too much time with Deron??? Fact of the matter is Deron has had at worst comparable teams to those of Rose.

  • http://www.nba.com/knicks danpowers

    @ppose: these teams were good but not great. both got outplayed by miami (bulls with rose 2 seasons ago, the thunder last season).

  • Drig

    @pposse…….10:21 comment put a smile on my face :D

  • pposse

    yah and he played that way this past year too..the fact of the matter is he won a little bit more than 1/3 of the games he played in this past year..when a d rose led team wets the bed like that then come ask me that question

  • pposse

    look lebron is a case study by himself…i can easily argue that he is going to go down as the 2nd best of all time..you team him up with Wade and Bosh and its a wrap for the league. He went to the finals twice with a stacked team and should have won against dallas, but didnt. Those teams the thunder and bulls of two years ago are as good as it gets, other than the Heat and now the Lakers with Dwight and Kobe and co. I really do believe the bulls would have beat the mavs 2 years ago..and the Thunder probably beats any other team in the league last year in in the finals.

  • ThaWindy

    When was the last time you heard DWill say he wanted to be great? He wanted to be the best? DWill is cool with his checks. Hes content with his career. Rose wants to be the greatest. Rose is the type to prove himself.. That’s why ever since DWill dunked on him Rose has be on a mission to kill that guy. And he has. DWill will make tireless excuse once his team doesn’t amount ship. He’ll blame his wrist, the coach, his dog and any thing else he can conjure up in his mind.

  • ThaWindy

    How can u respect a grown man with a perm?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Look, I don’t think Rose is better than Deron. Clearly tons of Bulls fans believe this to be true. Good for you all.
    But that is immaterial. Whether he’s better than Deron or not, he’s still not on the team carrying level of Dwight and LeBron. And Dwight isn’t on the same level as LeBron when it comes to turning crap into gold.
    Bron’s history says he maximizes talent and covers flaws. Can’t say that about Kobe or Wade or anyone else on the same level as Bron. That has been true for years. The only thing that changed after last year is that now we know Bron can take over when his team truly needs it to win big games. That was the only thing up for debate.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Dwill got shipped out of Utah because he wanted to be great. He was complalining because the team was losing and that’s why he refused to sign an extension with the Jazz.
    Man, Bulls fans need to dial it back a tad. Y’all are being ridiculous.
    They are both in the East now. They both have decent teams. We will see what shakes out now.

  • http://Slamonline.com Datkid

    Slick there is now way that lebron’s team was better than rose’s that year dog. THAT’S revisionist history. And it’s not hyperbole it’s a figure of speech. And your just gonna avoid my question about what D.rose actually does better than cp3 or d.will? Aight. But cp3 is the overrated one right? Got it. And pposse rose has a shoe deal bc he was a well marketed college star and former #1 pick with a penchant for highlight reel dunks. People like that, and it sells shoes but it certainly doesn’t mean he’s the best. You’re smarter than this.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Datkid, you’re doing revisionist history, not me. You’re judging players off of their current performances in the league and not how they were in 2009-2010. Lebrons team was better, Mo williams was/is better than Kirk, Anderson verajo was better than a rookie Taj. Antwon jamison was better than deng at that time averaging 18.6 ppg and 8.4 reb on 46.1 fg%. Noah was better than their centers but shaq still got the best of Noah at times in that series because noah wasn’t big enough, don’t try to deny this. I have never dodge your question, I’m not denying Cp3 is a more “complete player” than Rose but so is rondo. With that logic you can say Kevin Garnett is a greater player than karl malone but that wouldn’t true…and Rose does do things better than both cp3 and williams might I add but whats your point, that doesn’t totally determine whether a player is better.

  • http://twitter.com/laibacute laibacute

    @Drig yup that right. that put a smile on my face to. i am smiling myself too.

  • Irishmick

    Who replaced Drose in the London games everbody say it with me…….Deron Williams that or Andre Iguodala. Either way Dwill is a busness man not a basketball player. Rose is hungrier

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