Top 50: Derrick Rose, no. 12

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• JoeMaMa Posted: Oct.12 at 8:13 am
  A great write up. If that J comes out strong this year….he’ll be a revelation.

• Brandon Posted: Oct.12 at 8:13 am
  Now “Here we go,” first off great write up Quinn. Derrick Rose is going into his 3rd year in the league and this is normally when a player progresses the most because he understands the league. You can already tell his steadiness on the court in “preseason” and yes we are talkin about preseason. He finally he has the assets around him to be a complete point guard which everyone seems to knock him on. But, he will definitly prove his doubters worng becuase the kid is “special” like my boy Stacey King would say. I can definitely see him average 24 pts., 8 assists and 5 reb. a game and take the bulls to the second round of the playoffs and face a hard miami or boston team and push them to the limit because the kid is just that good. He will also definitely improve his defense under a real coach like Thibs and show he is more than just a dynamic offensive player and prove he is a complete player as well.

• DreJayAre Posted: Oct.12 at 8:14 am
  Playoff performance says a lot about a player, DRose ups his game post season. Can’t argue he’s not the 3rd best PG in the L, so that has to merit at least a Top 15 spot.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 8:31 am
  AND WE’RE OFF in the 3rd annual DRose Hateathon Competition. HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE!! DRose is going to EXPLODE this season and will make his name taste like sh*t in hater’s mouths.

• t-sizzle Posted: Oct.12 at 8:37 am
  good

• t-sizzle Posted: Oct.12 at 8:39 am
  lmao how is it hate when no one disagrees he is at least top 20, that’s funny. anyways, always thought the kid is good, just not all up there yet. we’ll see how this season turns out

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 8:46 am
  Co-sign t-sizzle. All the inbred’s that speak through rotted teeth can’t seem to fathom that D-Rose’s numbers may actually DROP since he’s going to be playing with more talent on the Bulls roster than he’s had before. Now unless he wants to be a ball-hogging little bi*ch and not use Boozer (when he returns) spread the floor when Korver is in and try to generate offense for Luo with his drive and dish game, then everyone who thinks he’s going to have staggering numbers are going to be scratching their as*es wondering what happened. If he does all the things I said above, the Bulls will have the ability to be deadly. If he plays for numbers and trying to cement his place as one of the top three PG’s in the league (which he currently is on the outside looking in on)then Bulls fans will see another first round exit and a summer of what if’s. But, I wouldn’t expect Bulls fans or dipsh*ts to realize that it’s not hate fueling this type of thinking, it’s questioning if the dude will be willing to sacrifice in a way he hasn’t had to before because HE was the most talented option the Bulls had. He now has legit running mates. See how that works?

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 8:51 am
  Eboy, his assists will go way up while still being able to score like he always does. Now he put up like 20/6 last year, so this year with better teammates he will put up 20/9 with his team winning at least 50 gms, if that doesn’t make him the third best PG then I don’t know what will. Also I’m not a HUGE bulls fans because they play in the same conf. as the Heat but I’m a HUGE DRose fan, so I wish him nothing but the best this season but not so much the bulls.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 8:54 am
  Good work, Quinn. And if anybody doesn’t think Rose is a fringe top 10 or top 20 player in the L right now, yes, you are a hater…

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 9:01 am
  Derrick Rose will have a MONSTER year with his new toys. His leadership, confidence and swag has only gotten better. i can tell he put in serious work this off season by the way he is playing so far.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 9:02 am
  @Eboy: I had to stop reading your comments. You don’t know the first thing about this kid to make a comment like “ball hogging little b*itch” when your precious Heat have 2 certified b*itches right now. Plus, you insinuating that DRose would chase numbers, further illustrates you have no clue what you’re talking about. Whatever, man… switch a couple of letters around and Heat spells Hate.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 9:06 am
  Just wait the hate will come. We’ll see posts from Teddy-the-Bear, TrailBlazing, Armando, t-sizzle and crew pretty soon. As soon as they see Poohdini’s face LOL.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 9:07 am
  JTaylor, I like the kids game too, but dudes are talking about him in ways that are setting him for unfair failing. He’s nowhere in the league of Deron or CP3. He’s in the same tier as Rondo, Nash and probably after this season, Westbrook (who is incredibly undervalued, especially on this list)and isn’t a good as leader as Nash and not a better all around player than Rondo. He’s a more explosive scorer than those two guys….but what else hoes he do that is better than what those guys do? I’ll answer it for you….nothing. Rondo doesn’t NEED to score 20 a game….he’s got a team full of guys that can do that. Nash has that ability but his unselfishness and aging is probably going to keep him from doing that. So to me Rose is in the #5 spot, which is not a slight or hate, it’s just that at the moment, there’s arguably 4 other guys that are more well rounded than he is. Cat’s need to stop with their panties in a bunch game, it’s not cute.

• Brandon Posted: Oct.12 at 9:09 am
  Eboy I see your point to a certain degree, but I also know you don’t necessarily have to lose stats to have a successful year. He does not care about stats, I have seen this cat since he was at Simeon and in the state title game against Peoria Richwood he did not even have double figures but they still won the game. He only wants to win no matter how it is accomplished. I agree if his points go down and his assists are up then it is great no matter what because that will automatically put him in the conversation in the top 5 point guards (imo he is alreay in).

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 9:12 am
  I second Bryan Crawford. I’ve never seen anything in DRose’s game, personality or bball career that would indicate a ball hog. he does what the team ask of him and need him to do. last year he could have had good assists number but shooters didn’t drop shots. So peace Kirk, Pargo and Murray.

• JoeMaMa Posted: Oct.12 at 9:12 am
  Hating isn’t disputing a ranking on account of evidence (Rose can’t do X properly, etc.). Hating is disrespecting a player on account of personal prejudices, inner turmoil, and/or poor basketball comprehension. It manifests itself in name calling, weak/shabby arguments that can’t withstand objective analysis, and personal attacks. Having said that, I think Rose, based on his projected year ahead, fits well into this slot. And now, from this definition, we can now ably label several repeat posters on this site ‘haters’. God Bless.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 9:13 am
  Bryan, your reading skills are terrible, kid. You know what “context” means? Look that sh*t up. Perhaps I should have wrote for the uneducated, but I didn’t think you would need that hand holding. Let’s see: Eboy wrote “Now unless he wants to be a ball-hogging little bi*ch” now you tell me, where does it say that I called him a little b*ch? I said UNLESS…you know that definition? I should have wrote “a ball-hogging little b*tch like a latter day Allen Iverson” maybe that would have qualified it. And instead of playing the Woe Is Derrick card, why not tell me what else I said that isn’t true in regards to your wondrous team and what Derrick can provide to them, King of Hate?

• r dub Posted: Oct.12 at 9:16 am
  Love this kids game and demeanor on the court because he never seems to get rattled. I’m a hornets fan and even chris paul agreed with barkley when he stated on TNT that Deron, Paul and Rose are the three best pgs based on talent

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 9:17 am
  I’m glad that poor basketball comprehension is a characteristic of a “hater.” It makes identifying guilty parties that much easier.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 9:17 am
  Brandon said: “He does not care about stats” yet just a few weeks ago dude was saying in the press that he’s going to go out and try to be the MVP (or best player) in the league. To me, that would mean his stat totals would HAVE to go up, and if you are already planning in your mind to have that sort of season, you ARE thinking about stats, because you know you have to have them to be legit in that conversation with guys like Lebron, Kobe, KD, etc. Stop the nonsense…..dude can take slight criticisms. He’s a big boy. It’s his little army of Rose’s of that need a diaper change. Jesus.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 9:18 am
  Damn BCrawford, you ain’t gotta go that route. Eboy was talking about if DRose goes strictly after stats then he’s a ball hogger, he wasn’t calling him a b*tch and who on the heat is a certified bi*ch right now? All I see are guys that made moves to put themselves in a position to win a chip just like the Bulls and Rose did this off-season. So I guess that every player that has gone to a better team in the past is a b*tch HUH.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 9:18 am
  Rondo gets assists because Allen, Pierce and Garnett can shoot their A$$ off! He hustles but he get a overrated rating for defense. Rondo swipes and reaches ALOT because he knows once he gets blown by KG is back their to block and support. Of course if you reach all day you will get steals. To all of the weirdos quick question if Boston could would they trade Rondo for Rose? HELL YES If Phoenix could would they trade Nash for Rose? FUCK YEA if Chicago could would they trade Rose for either? NOOOOO!!!!!!

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 9:21 am
  Bryan, you can play that game with other cats on the site, other writers, whoever you feel you can get away with it with, but for real, that sh*t means little to me bro. You’re a Bulls fan. Like I’m a Heat fan. You’re opinions are skewed. Just like mine. Stop acting like you got the entire league on lock. You don’t. Neither do I. You opinion. So do I. You’re going to dissect Lebron when his piece come’s up, so let’s not pretend like you’re going to be an unwilling party to the 200 or so comments that will accompany that one. I haven’t said one negative thing about Rose in this comment thread. I used hypotheticals. You (and a few other’s) couldn’t figure that out. Kind of like how sarcasm is lost in the written word.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 9:24 am
  @ EBOY “just a few weeks ago dude was saying in the press that he’s going to go out and try to be the MVP” Sorry man Rose never said that. I heard and seen the press conference. He did say “Why not me?” But he didn’t give a timetable or he didn’t set that as this years goal. I do agree with you on other things though.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 9:26 am
  First off Eboy, I NEVER said you “called” DRose a “ball hogging little b*itch,” I took issue with you making that kind of comment in reference to him, illustrating you don’t know the first thing about him with supporting evidence in you making a reference to him being a stat chaser. Neither of which are true. So, no hand holding here and perhaps you’re the one that needs to be paying attention…to the context of words on this page and even moreso to the subject of your misguided — and uninformed — HATE. See how THAT works.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 9:27 am
  Hairy Twat….that’s semantics.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 9:27 am
  @JTaylor21 “who on the heat is a certified bi*ch right now?” Umm lets try Mr. The World Hates me because of Racism! I’m black and I didn’t like Bron personality before “The Decision”! Now he shows those that pay attention his true colors.

• Brandon Posted: Oct.12 at 9:29 am
  Actually Eboy the direct quote is “Why can I be MVP,” he was putting it out there becuase I can surely summize that Steve Nash did not have the best states but still won the MVP. The MVP has now turned to be a popularity vote now but I digress. Basically, he can expand his game all around and based off his team victories I can see why he would say that. I understand the process you are a heat fan and I am a bulls fan as well but I also am a realist when it comes to this subject. I believe he can have a monster year because he understands the game more and he does have more help than in previous years.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 9:29 am
  I’m still confused as to where I hated on dude for saying that if he took a route of being selfish that would be hurtful to the Bulls chances? I didn’t say he would, I meant if he DID play that way. B, you’re way off. But’s that ok…..you can try to skewer me. I’m fine with it.

• Brandon Posted: Oct.12 at 9:30 am
  Can’t be MVP sorry typing too fast.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 9:30 am
  @EBOY Its not semantics it clarification. The last thing we want to do is mis-quote someone.

• Moose Posted: Oct.12 at 9:31 am
  LeBron should’ve gone to Chicago. Sorry, E.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 9:33 am
  You guys are correct, I went off memory (and probably one of Marcel’s misleading headlines) as the place where I took his quote from.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 9:34 am
  Rondo should have come to the Heat, Mooseknuckle.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 9:38 am
  Rondo to the heat would have been good for that them. Had he known what was happening this summer he probably wouldn’t have sign a extension. what do you think? But the heat still don’t have a free pass to the ring. Lakers are still better with a healthy Kobe.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 9:38 am
  Harry Twatter, so he’s a b*tch for make his own decisions and doing what’s right for him? OKAY sure you follow the crowd and let other people decide your life for you, while men like Bron handle their own business. Like young said Men do what they want, boys (you) do what they can.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 9:39 am
  Eboy, the last thing I’m trying to do is skewer you, but this is the 2nd time I’ve seen you take shots at DRose. The kid has never been selfish, or a ball hog, never been arrogant or anything like that and yet you continually make snide comments in reference to him. That’s why I say that you don’t know anything about him and take issue with your comments. You underestimate and undervalue him and you don’t give him his props, you take shots. Even I give Bron props, I don’t just hate and refuse to recognize the talents he took to South Beach.

• Moose Posted: Oct.12 at 9:41 am
  Eboy, whatever happens….my boy’s in Boston the next six years. Bahahahahaha

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 9:44 am
  I said Rose is a top 5 point guard in the league right now. That was my final analysis, IMO, after all my “insults” to his game and his character. That’s hating? For real? There’s a reason I’ve avoided commenting on the Top Player pieces this year. Wow.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 9:48 am
  @JTaylor21 If Lebron was such a “MAN” why did he quit on his team in the playoffs? Chris Quit on his team before the playoffs started and you can’t tell me different.

• Moose Posted: Oct.12 at 9:48 am
  Rondo>>>Rose.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 9:52 am
  Okay Moose let “The Real Hate” begin. How and why would you say that? Don’t just use symbols to make a point this isn’t kindergarten.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 9:53 am
  Hey Harry, I bet they won’t be quitting this year.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 9:55 am
  And just to back my man Moosepipe, I’d take Rondo over D Rose for my squad, well, because I like good defense. I know Rose played great against the Celts two years ago in the playoffs (with the especially great Game One), but Rondo’s resume is a bit shinier overall.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 9:57 am
  @EBOY was that a personal attack? Come on are you serious my man? What you can’t handle Bryan Crawford so you try to pick on me? LOL wow Miami is a joke. Florida plates should read “If you can beat’em quit and try to beat someone else.”

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 9:59 am
  Harry, when did he quit? All you go by is what the media says and you foolishly believe it. He had a bad game 5 just like so many others have but he did not quit, so Kobe most have quit when he shot 6-24 in GM7. Also CB1 was hurt and don’t believe what the team said because they were butt-hurt and tried to bad mouth him. Just like in life, everyone has bad days but it doesn’t mean they quit.

• melvin ely Posted: Oct.12 at 9:59 am
  Eboy you know that shine on his resume is due to the quality of guys around him right? And you’re right, Rose is an inferior defender to Rajon but not by that much, but Derrick is a far more gifted player offensively.

• t-sizzle Posted: Oct.12 at 10:01 am
  rose has been more of a scoring point up to this point. we don’t know how exactly he’ll react to the big changes on this team. if we see his assists go up, play-making improve, as well as greater team success, then he definitely merits this ranking or higher. however, over-usage of the term “hater” guys.. no one hating, we all recognize his skill, talent, potential, work ethic. we agree that he’s gonna be better this year. we just not sure how it’ll pan out exactly in the upcoming season, so we’re not gonna get ahead of ourselves

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 10:02 am
  I know, melvin, that doesn’t change it though. If Rose’s numbers are as elevated as his fans think they will be, that same logic would apply to him then too.

• Brandon Posted: Oct.12 at 10:05 am
  Eboy and Moose I’m first going to start by saying I respect Rondo. He is perfect for that Boston Celtics team but I will not take him over Rose any day of the week and I am not going to use that lame excuse he has 4 HOF’s with him so that is what makes him good. I will say though the difference between the two is Rose can single-handedly win a game for you. He literally scares you with how he can dominate a game and with better help around him this year it’s going to be interesting how teams will try to defend him. He will be much better defensively because he has a coach that will not let him slouch on that end of the court. He will also prove that he can run a team with the new players the bulls have surrounded him with.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 10:06 am
  Well if you think about it Rondo DOES hustle but as far as his “D” goes. He is overrated just a bit. Every time he goes against bigger guards he gets abused. Every time he goes against Rose he gets BLOWN past. He swipes and reaches for a lot balls because he knows KG is back there for help and he gets good “Team” defense.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 10:13 am
  Rondo’s D>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rose’s D. Rose let him avg. a freaking triple double in a 7gm series not too long ago, DAMN that has to be one of the worst defensive performance in sports history. You would have thought that Rondo was the Big O and it was the 60s not 00s.

• Moose Posted: Oct.12 at 10:15 am
  Brandon, the whole “Surrounded by HOF’s” argument is a moot point now, I think we can all agree on that. And Rondo’s D is stellar; everytime CP3, Deron…all of those guys come into town, they’re shut down. And, hello? Rondo led the league in steals, came in fourth on the DPOY voting…his defense is top notch.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 10:16 am
  JTaylor, Rose lit him up in Game 1 of that series. Pretty easily. His scoring numbers tailed off after that though.

• Brandon Posted: Oct.12 at 10:19 am
  Moose if you read what I wrote that’s why I stated I would not use that in my argument. Are we seriuosly talking about the series in Rose first year as a rookie?

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 10:20 am
  @JT21: To be fair, Rose was a rookie and Rondo was in his 3rd year when that happened.

• Brandon Posted: Oct.12 at 10:21 am
  My bad Moose I see what you are saying just took it wrong I understand now, but seriously they are both great players and we will see what happens between the two this upcoming season.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 10:22 am
  Eboy, exactly rose light him up in one game but couldn’t keep it up while Rondo racked up triple doubles faster than Lindsay Lohan downs shots at an open bar.

• t-sizzle Posted: Oct.12 at 10:22 am
  in terms of rondo’s D, no doubt top notch. he’s had the same D since he came into the league as a rookie. you can’t teach that kind of defensive mentality, toughness, quickness. he probably takes pride in causing mayhem and shutting pgs down. so i can’t believe people on here doubting his D, the one thing that he’s always done well, that’s innate

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 10:23 am
  He was a rook, JTaylor. Can’t overlook that. Rondo was a beast. That can’t be overlooked either.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 10:24 am
  @Eboy “Rose lit him up in Game 1 of that series. Pretty easily. His scoring numbers tailed off after that though.” Very true but that’s because the TEAM defense changed.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 10:27 am
  @JTaylor21 Rondo couldn’t hit a free throw to save his life whats your point?

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 10:31 am
  Can we all agree on this? Neither Rondo or Rose are going to win the Three-Point Shooting Contest anytime soon.

• Moose Posted: Oct.12 at 10:31 am
  Thanks, Brandon…looking back on your comment I see how it can be taken both ways.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 10:31 am
  In that series Rondo didn’t D Rose up to cause Rose’s scoring to drop. The teams D changed and Rose met Perkins and Davis for the first time. But Rose still got off. I do remember Rose d against Rondo game 6 when Rondo go this shot blocked. That’s what you call D’d up!!

• Moose Posted: Oct.12 at 10:32 am
  Eboy said it. Not that Rondo’s jumper didn’t vastly improve over last year…

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 10:34 am
  @Eboy: Anytime soon is generous. Never works though.

• k-dees Posted: Oct.12 at 10:34 am
  @JTaylor21 – Rose “let” Rondo average a triple double on him 2 years ago, as a rookie. How is that “not too long ago?” If you’re going to base your opinion on players in their rookie years, how about we talk about Rondo? Anyone that watched the FIBA Worlds would tell you that Rose’s defense has improved greatly since that time. And, as great as Rondo is, Rose has abused him plenty of times. Their most recent matchup: Rose (39pts,7asts,5rebs,3blks in a Bulls’ win), Rondo (4pts,6asts,3rebs).

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 10:34 am
  Who gives a fu*k about free throws when he’s piling up trip dubs, that’s like saying Shaq and Wilt were less dominant because they couldn’t hit FTs. @EBoy, I know he was a rookie but still no one should get abused in that fashion rook or not. That’s the ONLY thing that RWestbrook has on Rose which is a HUGE plus for him and a big negative for rose.

• KB8toSG8 Posted: Oct.12 at 10:38 am
  Hmmm…..Rondo vs Rose??? Did I miss something here? Anyways, just would like to point something out. If you’re a PG with amazing handles, great speed and a good first step, its REALLY REALLY REALLY difficult to stop him from penetrating into the paint. Really hard. Hell, its almost impossible sometimes. Now that that’s cleared up, Rose is nowhere near CP3 and Deron. I guess everyone agrees with that. If not…… Rondo, Rose, Westbrook, Nash, Kidd all come in the 2nd group for all different reasons. Sorry if I’m just repeating points but I haven’t got the time right now to look through all of them

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 10:40 am
  @Jtrailer Ive never seen Rondo abuse Rose but I have seen Rose abuse Rondo multiple times. To the point Boston has to change the way they defend him LOL. Look at the last game they played. Rose broke his own personal record for pts a game with 39!! LOL

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 10:40 am
  @JT21: I didn’t know that averaging a triple-double constitutes as “abusing” someone. Besides, you act like Rose’s stats weren’t comparable. Look it up. He averaged 3 more points than Rondo who averaged 3 more rebounds/assists. That’s not abuse, that’s a rookie holding his own.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 10:42 am
  Co-sign Harry Twatter. And even if I weren’t a Bulls fan, I’d take Rondo over Rose any day. Derrick is just the better player and Rajon is just in the better situation…for the time being anyway. As the Big 3 slowly starts to fall off, then we’ll see just how good Rondo REALLY is.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 10:48 am
  Okay you want to play this game huh? @Harry’s TWAT, we are talking about the 09 playoffs not last year. Stop switching up the subject just to sound right. @BCrawford, yes doing something that only a handful of players have done is ABUSING the person that’s guarding you. People nowadays only believe that scoring a boatload of points is the only way players can dominate WRONG. 20/10/10 is better than 40 points any day of the week in my eyes.

• Brandon Posted: Oct.12 at 10:51 am
  Bryan Crawford you meant to say you would take Rose over Rondo but we get it. I have to concur on that statment as well, because when you are solely the one that defenses are focus on there is a differnt mindset for you as a player. I believe though also there will be pressure taken off D.Rose with the players that are acquired.

• niQ Posted: Oct.12 at 10:52 am
  It’s nice to see the annual Derrick Rose hatefest is back and healthy. His new nickname should be Derrick “the top 50 thread sh!t starter” Rose.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 10:56 am
  @ JTrailer Okay so we are talking 2 years ago for this years Rankings? LOL This is exactly what I mean about the Rose Haters. But when you want to talk up Rondo you bring up last year? Here’s the last time they met period, keep in mind Rose and Rondo are both healthy so no excuses……..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBxWii3ZbxU

• thegfunk Posted: Oct.12 at 10:57 am
  Shaq NO1 !!!!!!!!!!!! oh wait it’s mamba

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 10:57 am
  @JT21: So 16.9pts, 9.7rbs, 9.8asts (Rondo), is abusing a guy (Rose) who put up 19.7pts, 6.3rbs, 6.4asts? Explain to me how that works because that does not compute.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 10:59 am
  @Brandon: Good catch.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 11:00 am
  As a matter of fact Rose put up career highs twice against Rondo “The Greatest Defensive PG of all time”. His first playoff game in which he did ABUSE Rondo and the last time they met again he ABUSED Rondo. I remember Doc talking about how Rondo always has a hard time with Rose and big guards.

• The D Train Posted: Oct.12 at 11:00 am
  @Harry Twatter’s 9:30 comment: I hear you man, but to warn you…that seems to be common practice on these boards for some people. Already went down that road with Eboy and someone else a while back about a bit on PTI when they asked Kevin Love about the best player(s) in the League. A favorite trick on here is to generally “quote” someone, then lash out if someone points out the inaccuracy of the mis-quote the poster is using to prove his point. If the mis-quote fits their argument great. If you start bringing actual quotes to the table, it is semantics or they give a snarky response about not having time to go back and check all quotes/facts.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 11:05 am
  BCrawford, all I’m saying is that for a 6-1 PG to put up damn near 10 rbs and 10 assts while scoring 17pts each and every game means that he dominated and abused every single player on the bulls not just DRose in that series. You do know that getting a triple double let alone avg. it for a 7gm series is harder and rarer than avg. 35-40 let alone the 20/6/6 that Rose had. I’ll put it like this isn’t a prime JKidd a better PG than Rose?

• The D Train Posted: Oct.12 at 11:07 am
  RE: my last comment…I actually had a similar “debate” recently with JTaylor actually mis-quoting MY OWN words. And I’m not just talking about pointing out the inaccuracy and him saying something like, “okay, sorry.” He tried to keep arguing even as I reposted my exact words. So a lot of you cats that are arguing with guys like JT are swimming upstream in a river of bullsh1t. Probably best to just get out of the river, right?

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 11:13 am
  D-Train, my 9:33a comment should clear things up for today’s argument.

• slick ric Posted: Oct.12 at 11:14 am
  D. rose is going to have a great year, It’ll be nice to see him shut the haters up. Ive been Impressed with him in his career. He’s handled playing under the pressure of being the number one pick and playing with the expectations of being in his hometown. He going to get much better , and I firmly believe he can be one of the Top players in league.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 11:15 am
  @ The D Train Good info
  @ JTrailer a prime JKidd vs Rose? Listen stop putting legends up against younger pro’s people tend to look at the legends entire career and base judgments off that. A prime Kidd wouldn’t get the assists your dreaming of because the Bulls didn’t have good shooters. Rose is a guy who does what is asked of him. Think about it

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 11:15 am
  @JT21: I’m not arguing that what Rondo did wasn’t impressive, what I’m saying is that he didn’t “abuse” anyone while doing it. Dominant, yes, I’ll give you that, but that’s where it ends for me. The Rose/Kidd debate, I’m not going to engage in because I don’t know where you’re going with it or how it’s releveant to the convo.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 11:15 am
  Yes DTrain stay out of the river because a shark just was seen in it and that shark is me. Stay out unless you want to get your a** remixed Jaws style.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 11:16 am
  In the playoffs where Rondo averaged a triple double, he clearly was getting the better of htat matchup. Rose had a monster, MONSTER Game One, but after that was pretty inconsistent. Rondo did his thing that series, and if your opposing player averages 17, 10 and 10 he’s abusing you. Ain’t no way to justify that, particularly since the Celtics got the win in the series.
  Personally, I don’t think 12 is outlandish for Rose given his talent, but we shall see if this is the year that it all comes together. Often when players improve their jumpshots, they start settling more for jumpers instead of dictating to the defense. I was impressed with Rose early on in FIBA play, but then he started to slump and that bothered me. I think he’s still learning the game to a large extent and now he’s going to be dealing with a lot more pressure and expectations. It could push him to higher heights, or it could cause him to start pressing.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 11:18 am
  Click on Chris Bosh’s Top 50 and read the Oct. 11th 9:00 pm comment. Lol Haters continue to do this and they are blind to it. The good thing is you don’t see people here trying to compare Rondo with Legends like they do Rose.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 11:19 am
  BCrawford, I used JKidd as a reference because he too racks up triple dubs and came very close to avg. one in a playoff series like Rondo did. I’m not saying that Rondo is remotely close to JKidd (a top-5 PG of all-time by the way), I’m just comparing him to Kidd in the way they achieve their triple dubs.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 11:21 am
  EVERYONE !!!! Chris Bosh’s Top 50 and read the Oct. 11th 9:00 pm comment now tell me i’m lying Boston? I predicted this 12 hours ago

• t-sizzle Posted: Oct.12 at 11:23 am
  cosign Allenp on all those points. he’s got the talent, this is the year he makes or breaks

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 11:25 am
  @Allenp: It’s not “abuse” if your counterpart is outscoring you and putting up damn near the same rebounding and assist numbers. It’s not like Rose averaged 8, 3, and 4. If that were the case then yes, that would constitute as abuse. Sorry…

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 11:27 am
  @JT21: Actually, the Rondo/Kidd comparison is very good one being that they’re mirror images of one another even though Rondo is like 4-inches shorter.

• Anton Posted: Oct.12 at 11:27 am
  I guess I agree with this ranking, but WHERE IS DERRICK ROSE?!

• T-Money Posted: Oct.12 at 11:30 am
  I don’t think D-Rose had an impressive run with Team USA and I’m not sure he makes the London team in front CP3, DWill or Westbrook. Rose is a very good young point guard but I don’t think he’s a special talent when compared to other young point guards like Rondo and Russell Westbrook who are better playmakers and defenders by FAR. He’s an all-star though, there’s no debating that. Just not transcendant, I don’t think you win an NBA title with D-Rose as the alpha dogon your team (a status he seems dead set on retaining if we can read anything on him calling bosh but not wade or bron during the free agency period).

• slick ric Posted: Oct.12 at 11:33 am
  People are underestimating this guy.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 11:34 am
  DRose won in HS, led Memphis to the championship and was two free throws away from winning an NCAA title (which would’ve been vacated anyway, but still), and NOW all of a sudden people want to say that you can’t win with him in the NBA. SMH…

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 11:36 am
  I remember they used to say the same thing about Kobe too…

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 11:36 am
  Okay back to the main point. I see Rose doing great this year and probably even surpassing “12″ by All-Star Break. Kyle will be a great counter and Boozer will take pressure to score off of Rose. Both will compliment each other perfectly. I look for Noah to take another step forward and possible even making the All-Star team especially since Bogut’s injury last year will slow him down this year.

• T-Money Posted: Oct.12 at 11:38 am
  What I’m actually eager to see is if he can improve defensively under Thibs. His defense has been horrible so far, he gets blow by al the time but all the tools are there. It just seems like nobody has even put an emphasis in making him learn proper footwork on the defensive end. It can be done: Bron evolved from one the worst 1vs1 defenders at the 3 when he got to the league to one of the best in the last few years (not my opinion, naked eye AND advanced stats confirm this).

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 11:39 am
  BCrawford is on point. Even though guys like Malone/Stock/Bark/Baylor never won a chip, they are STILL winners in my book and even if Rose doesn’t win one, he will always be a winner in every level of competition.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 11:41 am
  Bryan
  There is a big diffence between those rebounding and assist numbers.
  The difference between 9.7 rebounds and 6.3 rebounds is the difference between a power forward and weak rebounding small forward. The difference between 9.8 assists and 6.4 assists is the difference between Deron Williams at the point guard and Allen Iverson at the point guard as far as passing goes.
  17 points compared to 20 points is a nice difference, no doubt, but when your point guard is scoring 17, rebounding like a power forward and passing like and elite point guard, he’s abusing whoever is guarding him. That’s just obvious.
  Rose had a nice series, but his numbers don’t compare to Rondo’s. Particularly when you consider that Rose averaged FIVE turnovers a game, while Rondo averaged fewer than three and tacked on 2.5 steals a game that playoffs.
  You know, these stats are actually skewed in Rose’s favor because Rondo’s numbers are from the playoffs as a whole, while Rose’s numbers are only from that one series. And that series was actually Rondo’s best series of the playoffs, so his numbers were probably better against the Bulls than the ones we’re working from.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 11:42 am
  In that series, Rondo dropped 29 the first game. Had triple doubles the next two games. Then had 19 assists in Game 6.
  He abused Rose. Come on now.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 11:46 am
  T Money I think your right but I do see a totally different Derrick Rose on the defensive end. Also Look who his coach was his first 2 years. I think he will improve dramatically because of team defense first. I remember Derrick vs Devin Harris awhile back and Devin kept calling for a screen and would blow past Derrick. For some reason Del Negro wouldn’t trap Devin. I seen how Derrick got frustrated and I remember a few bulls quietly calling out that coaching decision. That wasn’t Roses fault. Devin is fast and any screen needs team defense if you really want to contain it.

• T-Money Posted: Oct.12 at 11:46 am
  Who said you can’t win with Rose?! I don’t think you can win a championship with Rose as your best player, though. Those are two very different things. I don’t see any parallels between Kobe and Rose. / Winning in HS and going to an NCAA title game doesn’t really set Rose apart from other young NBA stars.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 11:47 am
  Yeah, I just ran the stats on the sortable stats page on NBA. com for the first round.
  Rose averaged 19.1 points, 9.3 rebounds and 11.6 assists.
  On 45 percent shooting with 2.7 steals a game.
  He abused Derrick Rose. Rose did his thing, but he got abused by Rondo.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 11:50 am
  Co-sign everything AllenP just said, when one player that 6-1 drops a trip dub for an entire 7gm series on a 6-3 defender, that’s known as getting your sh*t pushed in and abused. People nowadays really undervalue triple doubles which is probably the reason why they believe that Kobe’s a better player than Bron. Like I said before getting a triple double is twice as hard and way more impressive than scoring 40 points.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 11:54 am
  @T-Money Of course you can win a championship with Rose. WTF are you smoking when you come to that conclusion? Rose is dam near unguardable and now all of a sudden he’s not championship material? Give the Bulls 1 more big Joe Johnson type at SG and they’d already be the best in the East and competing for the title. Joe Johnson is decent but his name isn’t popular.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 11:54 am
  @Allenp: Considering that Rose was a rookie, of course he’s going to have a high-number of TO’s just like any rookie PG would. The DWill/Iverson comparison that you make when it comes to passing is inaccurate because you have one who is a willing passer while the other, obviously isn’t. So to draw the analogy that Rose wasn’t a “willing” passer in that series is incorrect. His teammates weren’t making shots and he didn’t have the luxury of playing with the same caliber of talent as Rondo who could get him those kinds of assists. As far as the rebounds, I can’t really explain that one other than he got a lot of loose ones from KG not playing in the series. Rondo is a career 4.4 rpg player (Rose 3.8 rpg), so those numbers are more of an anomoly than anything. But without citing stats and just going off the “eye test,” there was no abuse. I have all 7 games on DVD, I’ve watched that series numerous times. As PG matchups go, it was even. Nobody walked away from that series saying how Rondo killed DRose. If anything, Rose got respect for how he went right back and was the catalyst in that series going 7 games in the first place.

• tealish Posted: Oct.12 at 12:03 pm
  Twelve! Ok, let’s see this kid justify it!

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 12:04 pm
  Bryan
  You can’t back away from stats now homie. That’s what we were using.
  And using the “eye test” I thought Rose was crazy inconsistent after going off in the first game and that he made just as many mistakes as good plays. And the stats back that up.
  You can’t say the numbers are an anomaly. That’s like pointing to KG’s scoring average in the Cavs series as an anomaly because he didn’t do that the rest of the playoffs. We all know that his scoring average jumped against the Cavs because he straight up abused Antawn Jamison, just like Rondo gave Rose the business which is why his scoring average was so high compared to his scoring average int he the other series.
  I mean, Rondo, a non-scorer, averaged 19 points a game and damn near 12 assists! the 10 boards are just icing after that. There is no way you can honestly say that Rondo should be giving any point guard 19 points and 12 assists given his obvious offensive issues.
  Rose did pretty good for a rookie on offense.
  He got abused on defense. Ain’t no shame in that, it happens to everybody sometimes.

• tealish Posted: Oct.12 at 12:07 pm
  @Bryan….you can’t just say Rondo’s spike in rebounding in an anomaly and it doesn’t count… Rebounds are rebounds. He got them –a lot of them– as a PG in that series and just because it differs from his career average, only furthers the point that he showed up huge in that series.
  I’ve never really liked his game, but clearly, he outplayed Rose in those 7 games, no question about it.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 12:09 pm
  Also, averaging 6.3 assists and 5 turnovers is damn near a 1/1 assist to turnover ratio. That’s unacceptable for anyone, rookie or not. That many turnovers almost negates every assist you get.
  Finally, Iverson is not an unwilling passer. He’s just shoot first, which is exactly what D-Rose was his first year in the league.
  You don’t average 7 assists being an “unwilling” passer.
  My point was that Deron Williams makes point guard passes, while Iverson makes scorer passes. That was the same thing that was happening with Rose and Rondo.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 12:12 pm
  @Allenp: I’m not backing off of stats. Stats waas the basis of my whole argument to illustrate how Rondo didn’t abuse Rose. I just said that without citing stats (by me and everyon else) that there was no abuse whatsoever. And to your point about Rondo’s scoring, the Celtics took advantage of the fact that Derrick as a rookie and a really poor screen/roll defender which is how Rondo scored ALL of his points. It’s not like he was beating him off the dribble and taking him to the rack and finishing him. No, they ran screen after screen and DRose just didn’t understand how to defend it. That’s why I’m calling shenanagins on this “abuse” argument because it not like Rajon just went to work head-up in Derrick, and on the other end of the floor, Rondo had no answer. VDN hardly ever ran screen/roll for Derrick in that series like the C’s did for Rondo, it was all iso’s and Rondo just couldn’t hang.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.12 at 12:12 pm
  Hi haters!

• Scott Carter Posted: Oct.12 at 12:14 pm
  I’m guessing #11 is Dirk Nowitzki.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 12:17 pm
  Will Boston trade Rondo for Rose? In A second (Rondo was on the trading block the start of last year)
  Will Chicago trade Rose for Rondo? NEVER!!
  Rajon Rondos playoff stats with a HOF team vs a ROOKIE PG are useless. The bottom line is that was 2 YEARS AGO!!! Rose is better then Rondo now and he proves that everytime they met.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 12:18 pm
  The NBA is a “what have you done for me lately league” so is anybody right now willing to say that Rondo is still “abusing” Rose? I didn’t think so… There was no “abuse” then and there is certainly no “abuse” now.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 12:18 pm
  Lol @ the Enigmatic intro!!!!

• tavoris Posted: Oct.12 at 12:20 pm
  great spot for Rose. I get the feeling that he’s gonna be hated on his whole career.
  His assist number are low because the Bulls count on him so much to finish plays. If he doesn’t score, they dont’ have a chance at winning.
  With that being said, having Boozer, Brewer and Korver there will allow him to be more of a distributor this year.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 12:25 pm
  Bryan
  Rondo runs screen roll on everybody. He never isos people up. And most people do not allow him to score 20 a game. In fact, the only other time I can remember that happening was against Mo Williams this past season, and we all know that MO got his cheeks opened by Rondo.
  According to the stats, Rose got abused. According to my eye test, he couldn’t stop Rondo at all.
  Bottom line, as a rookie point guard in his first playoffs series, Rose got abused by a veteran.
  There is no shame in that, but that’s what happened.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 12:34 pm
  Sure @Harry’s TWAT a triple double in a 7gm playoff series is useless. I wonder whether they used you as Tyson’s punching bag as a kid because your brain cells are in shambles.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 12:34 pm
  @Allenp: Shenanigans… the stats support that there was no abuse. The eyes support that there was no abuse. And if Rondo has to run screen/roll everytime just to get his points, then there is no way that it can be said that he’s abusing anyone. I can say that without screen/roll though, Derrick goes to work on him and he can’t stop it…that’s what consititues abuse in my mind. Not coming off picks everytime. Can you say the same for Rondo?

• Diesel Posted: Oct.12 at 12:40 pm
  I love how Eboy says he’s not hating but then he starts his first comment with “All the inbred’s that speak through rotted teeth”. Not exactly setting the tone for agreement.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 12:42 pm
  @Bryan Crawford I can’t believe you still choose to go back and forth with these Boston bean heads over expired stats.
  @JTrailer and all you other fools looking at stats from 2 years ago. Look at the most up to date stats. If the best you can do is justify Rondo being better because what he did to a rookie 2 years ago then shame on you. I know what my eyes seen last year when they met head to head. And I definitely know what the stats say. The stats show Rose getting a career high and sitting Rondo on the bench.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 12:43 pm
  Diesel, that’ s because the following responses vindicated me and I knew that’s exactly where it was going to go. And if that sentence was hating on Rose, then you and I must be in another world.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.12 at 12:45 pm
  @ Eboy – No disrespect my dude, but how’s someone from Florida gonna accuse Chicago fans of being “inbreds that speak through rotted teeth”?

• JL Posted: Oct.12 at 12:47 pm
  this is like the battle royale. lol. Rose is an incredible talent. I think the question is only will he or westbrook or john wall be better? All super athletic quick PGs. Unless Wall comes out and averages 8 assists a game and scores 15 a game. Wait, Westbrook did that last year. He does have Durant to pass to tho! Very exciting bunch and makes the games that much more fun to watch! IMO Chris Paul and Deron Williams are on a different level as their assist totals set them apart even at a young age. Chris Paul didn’t average 6 assists a game even with not much of a supporting cast. Nash is great but it took him a lot of years to finally dominate, so it’s hard to compare at a younger age to Rose.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 12:48 pm
  I’m not from Florida, Enigmatic, I’m transplanted.

• Moose Posted: Oct.12 at 12:49 pm
  Everyone listen to Allenp…

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 12:51 pm
  Moose no one cares about your second account.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.12 at 12:55 pm
  Fair enough, Eboy. This whole Rose vs. Rondo thing is silly. Everytime they meet up, it’s been proven over and over again, neither one is capable of stopping the other.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 12:57 pm
  @Harry: A lot of arguments/debates that go on here are revisionist in nature anyway. Everybody is out to prove their point by any means necessary. It just comes with the territiory.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 12:57 pm
  @Harry’s TWAT, I never ever said that Rondo’s the better player, so you might want to chill on that accusation. All I said was that Rondo ABUSED him in that 7gm playoff series and if you can’t comprehend that you must really be in a fantasy land.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 12:58 pm
  1. I”m not a Boston bean head. I actually am more a D Rose fan than Rondo fan.
  2. The stats say that Rondo averaged 19 points per game, on 45 percent shooting, with 11.6 assists and 9.3 rebounds and 2.7 steals. He also averaged about 2.7 turnovers.
  Rose averaged 19.6 points on 49 percent shooting with 6.3 boards and 6.4 assists and 5 turnovers.
  Those stats show a clear winner.
  The fact that Rondo dropped 29! in Game One, followed by two triple doubles and then a 19 assist game only buttress that point.
  And my eyes told me that D Rose could not stop Rondo from getting in the lane creating havoc. Not at all. That’s what I call abuse, but maybe my definition is different.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 12:59 pm
  @Enigmatic: In defense of me, my only problem with the Rose vs Rondo thing is the insinuation that DRose got abused. The definition of what consititutes as “abuse” on the basketball court seems to be lost on some.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 1:00 pm
  Kind of like the difference between the problems caused by zone D and a hand checking defender.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 1:01 pm
  Harry Twatter
  The discussion I engaged in was about whether Rose got “abused” by Rondo.
  I have never said Rondo is better than Rose now, nor have I groused about his placement on the list. Look at my initial comment.
  I just think that Rondo gave him the business when they matched up, and I think Rose’s defense is the biggest weakness in his game, followed by his jumper.
  It’s weak to write off everybody who disagrees with you as a hater. It’s even weaker to introduce faulty stats into a discussion and then turnaround and call those stats unimportant when they are used to breakdown your argument. That’s what you’re doing.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 1:01 pm
  @Harry’s TWAT, when did I ever say that Rondo’s the better player? All I’m saying is that he ABUSED rose in that 7gm series and if you cannot comprehend that you must really be living in a fantasy world.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.12 at 1:03 pm
  OK – I’ll bite. Rondo was a beast in that playoffs series. An absolute beast. But I wouldn’t say he abused Rose. To me, abusing someone is what Jordan used to do. Score 35 on your man, and then hold him to under 10. It goes both ways. You can’t “abuse” your man if you score on him and then he turns around and bangs one on your ass (that just doesn’t look right when written) on the other end. Rondo had a brilliant series and his overall game was sick, but Rose got his too, and as a rookie no less.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 1:05 pm
  @Eboy: Word

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 1:06 pm
  And co-sign Enigmatic, too.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 1:07 pm
  For the record, JTtaylor introduced that series into the discussion as proof of his point that Rose needs to work on his defense.
  Harry Twatter then said that the “abuse” never happened, and that Rondo has gotten “abused” by Rose numerous times.
  Twatter also said it doesn’t matter since the alleged abuse happened two years ago.
  He went on to post those erroneous playoff numbers which consider Rondo’s stats from the entire playoffs when his playoffs took a nosedive, instead of just his stats from the first round.
  He then said stats don’t really matter and they are just being used by Boston bean heads.
  Bryan Crawford and I have disagreed on the definition of “abused” and whether Rose deserves that label for his first playoffs series against a veteran.
  Then again, that was only Rondo’s second time in the playoffs, so it’s not like he had THAT much more experience. I think Rose just played bad defense.

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 1:09 pm
  overrated

• airs Posted: Oct.12 at 1:09 pm
  this is fun, guys. right? man i can wait for the season to start.

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 1:12 pm
  good because you have to

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 1:14 pm
  @ Allenp “He went on to post those erroneous playoff numbers which consider Rondo’s stats from the entire playoffs when his playoffs took a nosedive, instead of just his stats from the first round.” Who is the he you are referring to? I’m already use to the Boston Misquotes so say it was me.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 1:16 pm
  @Allenp: I think you and I both agreed that his screen/roll defense wasn’t great which led to his scoring outbursts like they always do. Then when you teams collapse or double him, he’ll just make the pass to one of the 3 HOF’ers he plays with and they’ll finish the play, which explains the assits (which incidentally didn’t go up to the levels they are now until Ray Allen and KG came). It’s also worth mentioning that nobody really guards Rondo because you don’t have to. All you really have to do is keep him out of the paint and that’s more of a team defensive philosophy and not really just charged to an individual. He’s not a threat from anywhere else on the floor.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 1:16 pm
  Enigmatic, it goes both ways. Rose got his vs Rondo but Rondo ABUSED him on the offensive end. Remember nobody is saying that Rondo’s the better player or point but all I’m saying is that Rose needs to work on his D a lot because of what Rondo did to him in that series and what could potentially happen to him again if they meet in the playoffs this time around. Rondo has gotten bigger, has a decent NOT great jumpshot and is a better playmaker than 2 years ago while Rose’s defense hasn’t really improved. It may improve this year under Thibbs but I’m judging from what we’ve seen before. I really hope the celts and bulls met in the playoffs this year because it will be one for the ages.

• Tarzan Cooper Posted: Oct.12 at 1:18 pm
  Crawford, stickin to his story to the very end. ‘eye test’! Haha. Allen is right, rondo demolished rose in that series, its just a fact. Rose is the better player. What happened, happened.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 1:20 pm
  My bad Twatter, that was Crawford who posted those stats. I stand corrected.

• Teddy-the-Bear Posted: Oct.12 at 1:21 pm
  WHY?!?!

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 1:23 pm
  this is entertaining but those of you that keep repeating yourself, even when nobody responds, its annoying, come up with something new or accept that what you said has already been published.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 1:24 pm
  @Allenp: And once again, I stood by them. Not dismiss them. You stand corrected on that one too.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 1:25 pm
  Bryan
  I think that Rondo did to Rose what he did to Mo Wiliams this past post season. Against Mo Williams he put up 20.7 points, 6.3 rebounds and 11.7 assists.
  We all know that Rondo abused Williams. Is it just because Williams was bad on offense, or because Rondo straight up dominanted him when he had the ball?

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.12 at 1:28 pm
  @JTaylor21 – Again, I think “abused” is the wrong word. If you wanna play it like that, then Rondo got abused by Rose too. And as Harry has previously mentioned, when Rose’s scoring number fell, it was mainly due to the overall team defense making it tougher on Rose. As for your comment about Rose needing to work on his D, yes I agree. And I also hope Thibs lights a fire under his a** on that end. But I’m not understanding why Rose always gets called out for his subpar defense when others like Carmelo Anthony get a pass despite having the same deficiencies.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 1:28 pm
  Oh and Allenp, how were the stats I cited “erroneus”?

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 1:30 pm
  Bryan
  Nah, homie. We were talking about stats. I pointed out that the stats were the wrong numbers. Your stats were from the playoffs as a whole instead of from Round 1. You can find those stats by using the sortable individual stats tool at NBA. com.
  Using those numbers, the gap in scoring pretty much disappears, the gap in assits damn near doubles and reboudning gap is still there.
  Not to mention the five turnovers for Rose.
  So, going by stats, it wasn’t a close battle. Rondo clearly had the better series, which undermines your point.
  I don’t understand why this is so hard to admit. But, it’s clear we aren’t going to have a meeting of minds on this, so I’m going to take NBK’s advice and stop repeating myself.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 1:31 pm
  Bryan
  I make mad spelling errors on here.
  I don’t make many logical errors.
  Now, go on over to NBA. com, use the sortable stats tool I suggested, and see how much better Rondo played against Rose compared to everybody else he faced that playoffs.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 1:34 pm
  @Allenp: It was because Mo Williams is a terrible defender and got run off a ton of screens. You keep citing these scoring numbers for Rondo and using it as evidence of him abusing someone without going deeper into why he put those numbers up. It’s a surface argument. It’s almost like you’re making the claim that Rondo is some kind of elite scorer or something. No. He’s a product of excellent coaching because Doc & Co. knows his defenders weaknesses, and he has excellent teammates. I like Rondo, but you guys are giving him way too much credit here. The reasons for his success can very easliy be broken down into how’s and why’s.

• BMack33 Posted: Oct.12 at 1:36 pm
  I love how a good series always brings up the rose/rondo comparisons, you guys are aware cp3 and deron still exist? Also, out of all the point guards in the L, I would say Derrick has the most potential, and is by far the most exciting to watch.

• MUBWAR Posted: Oct.12 at 1:46 pm
  overrated… i cannot believe DRose came ahead of Chris Bosh…who is writing this shit…

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.12 at 1:49 pm
  @BMack33 – Nobody on here is trying to say that Rose and/or Rondo are better than CP3 and DWill.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 1:51 pm
  @ Bryan I agree 100% Rondo is a product of superior teammates, great team “d” and great coaching.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 1:52 pm
  Everybody in the league knows Rondo isn’t an elite scorer.
  Everybody knows the Celtics run pick and roll to get him shots.
  Rondo does not average 20 points per game against everybody in the league.
  I know why Rose sucked on defense. His fundamentals are horrible both on the ball and on pick and roll. Rondo exploited this.
  Yet, in the very next round, Rondo would only average 15.5 points and 7.7 assists.
  Why the massive drop in his numbers? Well, the overall team defense of his opponent was better, but he also went against a better individual defender who he did not just dominate.
  Once again, I cited the numbers because you used the numbers as proof that the gap between the two players wasn’t that wide based on that stats.
  In reality, Rose scored 19, Rondo scored 19. Rondo got 11 assists, Rose got 6. Rondo got 9 boards, Rose got 6. Rondo averaged 2.7 steals, Rose averaged .44. Rondo averaged 2 turnovers a game, Rose averaged 5.
  You have said that the rebounding numbers don’t count because that’s an anomaly, not true since Rondo averaged 10 rebounds the round and put up insane rebounding numbers this playoffs.
  You say the turnovers have to be overlooked because Rose is a rookie. He still had a turnover just about every time he had an assist.
  You say the scoring doesn’t matter because Rondo used pick and roll. That ignores the fact that primary offense for the Bulls that year was high pick and roll for Rose.
  Basically, you say that any statistic that proves that Rondo straight abused Rose doesn’t matter, while the fact that Rose scored 19 a game does matter.
  What’s up with that?

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 1:55 pm
  If a player can’t play pick and roll, you put him in the pick and roll and abuse him.
  If a player can’t guard the post, you put him the post and abuse him.
  If a player can’t move his feet, you take him outside and abuse him.
  You attack a player where he is weak, and dominate him.
  Yes, just straight blowing by a man is worse, but if Rondo ups his scoring average that much against a player it’s not just about pick and roll. It’s about a bad defensive player.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 1:57 pm
  @BMack33 Who brought up CP3 and Deron?

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 2:01 pm
  @Allenp: Using NBA.com’s sortable stats feature, you made it seem like the differences between the two guards was Grand Canyon-like. I went there and expected to see DRose somewhere toward the bottom with the way you spinned it. But he wasn’t. He was 5th. Rondo was 1st, followed by DWade, Iguodala, Andre Miller, and then DRose. C’mon, man. That just further weakens your argument that Derrick got abused. DRose was right there with Rondo in points (slightly outscoring RR), he still grabbed 3 less rebounds than Rondo (6.3 to 9.3), and the the assist gap was huge, can’t argue that one, but like I said, Rondo had the better teammates who finished. DRose had Ben Gordon, Kirk Hinrich, and John Salmons which is a far cry from Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Eddie House, and Kendrick Perkins down low.

• Brandon Posted: Oct.12 at 2:15 pm
  Okay Bryan and AllenP why are we still referring to a series that was two years ago. We both understand that it was a epic series and Rajon had the upper hand at that point and time. But this year will be completely different and it seems both of you all agree; Rose is the better player now so why are we delving into the past about a old series. It will be fun watching them go at each other this year though and I am excited to get this season kicked off.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 2:20 pm
  @ Brandon I been saying that since 12:42 it’s useless let them wonder off.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 2:24 pm
  Bryan
  The gap in assists, rebounds, turnovers and steals was canyon wide to you?
  Hell, Rondo had an efficiency rating of 30 and Rose had one of 19!
  Let’s look at the players you mentioned. You left off Noah and Brad Miller, by the way. Not sure you why you would leave off Noah given the way you’ve hyped dude in recent months as a player, and given the fact that he had the second highest efficiency rating the East that playoffs behind only Dwight Howard.
  No matter.
  For centers, Chicago had two players in the two ten in the East for efficiency ratings, Boston had one.
  For forwards, chicago again had two players, Boston had two.
  For guards, Boston had two players in the top ten, Chicago had three.
  From what I can tell, there wasn’t a huge gap between the Boston talent and the chicago talent at least based on the way they played in that series.
  Boston may have had a slight edge, but it wasn’t overwhelming. And much of that edge came because Rondo lived in the lane, killed on the glass and got everybody involved.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 2:25 pm
  *wasn’t canyon wide

• Brandon Posted: Oct.12 at 2:32 pm
  @ Harry Twatter it is hilarious to me. I am waiting to see what the Bulls offense will look like with this motion Thibs has running when Boozer returns. The bulls will put defenses in a quandary when you have boozer setting the pick, Korver on the strong side and Rose coming at full speed at the big man its gone be like poetry in motion. I’m excited because I expect a monster season with the way we can attack a defense and the philosophy that Thibs has as a defensive minded head coach.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 2:37 pm
  @Allenp: Oversight on Noah (my bad). And I don’t consider 3 more assists and rebounds per game a “canyon wide” gap. That’s more like a crack in the pavement. The only canyon wide gap was in the assist and turnovers department, but like I said, there’s reasons for both. Reason’s that you fail to acknowledge, but whatever. If you think it helps make your argument stronger, then more power to you. And if you want to say that the Bulls and Celtics were almost “equal” in talent using PER ratings, then this is where I bow out.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 2:40 pm
  “the bulls will put defenses in a quandary when you have boozer setting the pick, Korver on the strong side and Rose coming at full speed at the big man its gone be like poetry in motion.” Funny but if I put the Heat’s three names in that equation, all my little Heathating minions would say that can’t happen, they can’t develop chemistry, etc…..-yet the Heat in that same scenario would be about 40 times more effective due to the advanced talent level of the three players. Thanks for that, Brandon. it makes for a hilarious reference point for the future of this season.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 2:44 pm
  Like I said before, the difference between nine rebounds and six rebounds is massive, as is the difference between 11 assists and six assists, and 2.7 steals and .44 steals and 2 turnovers and five turnovers. The gap in total efficiency is huge.
  I use stats because stats were used. Clearly we have different thoughts on what stats mean. To me, 9 rebounds is a decent haul for apower forward, while 6 is ridiculously low.
  For a point guard to get 9 boards, while aslo getting 11 assists and 19 points is freaking ridiculous. Those are ridiculous numbers.

• Brandon Posted: Oct.12 at 2:45 pm
  Eboy I got you but I truly don’t hate the heat, but I am competitive and I want my team to destroy you guys. I also am a realist and understand the type of talent that you all have assembled so I am not crazy and say we will defeat you all in a 7 game series. But, this is the reason you have to play the games on the court and see what happens.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 2:48 pm
  perkins, big baby, house, ray allen, paul pierce, tony allen.
  ben gordon, salmons, noah, miller, hinrich, tyrus thomas
  The gap is not huge and was not huge in that series. Rondo had better perimter players, but the cats on chicago’s team weren’t slouches, and Chicago clearly had an advantage with the big men.
  That’s how I see it going by the stats, or going by the skillset.

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 2:50 pm
  what are you guys even trying to prove? It should be plainly obvious that Rondo was the driving force behind the Celtic victory in that series. And he was quite obviously the better player it wasn’t even close. BUT that was quite a while ago

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 2:51 pm
  Brandon, to be honest, I agree with you, the Bulls have the ability to do that and it’s great for Bulls fans. I’m just referencing what the majority of people here say day in and day out that there will be chemistry issues…..issues you don’t seem to think will be a problem for the Bulls even though in your scenario you have three new teammates doing things that they’ve never done together too.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 2:57 pm
  Eboy the Heat can develop chemistry the only problem is 2 of the 3 will have to change their style of play. The L only allows 1 basketball per play.

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 3:01 pm
  @Eboy I agree with you 98% just want to point out, CHicago is now made up of many guys frm Utah. And they will be running the Jazz system. Infact 3 of chicago’s top 7 players came from that system (Boozer, Brewer, Korver)

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 3:03 pm
  Why does the Miami guys have to change their style of play? There is more then 1 play per game

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 3:07 pm
  Allenp, you totally lost me with your last 2 posts and I think you’re making arguments to reinforce your beliefs. The difference between 6 boards and 9 boards isn’t “massive,” it’s 3. Especially when you’re applying what appears to be the same logic you use PF’s to PG’s. And nobody is discounting what Rondo did in the series. I’ve acknowledged this over and over again. I just feel that your “abuse” argument of Derrick Rose is weak. Yes, Rondo damn near averaged a triple-double. Very impressive. But Derrick gave as good as he got on the offensive end and on the boards. And the Celtics didn’t win that series because of Rondo’s scoring (he disappeared in games 6 & 7), they won because ultimately they were the better team. So to say that talent level was even is just absurd, but I’ll leave that one alone.

• Armando Posted: Oct.12 at 3:09 pm
  @Harry Twatter: Not hating Rose. Def top 20, maybe even 15, not just better than Nash yet. That he’s over Bosh is OK with me.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.12 at 3:18 pm
  In regard to the Heat, Bosh/Wade/James have played together many times before, from all-star games to Olympic teams to summer games. They enjoy playing with each other. I don’t think chemistry will be a problem, at least not in year 1. Everyone keeps saying LeBron is gonna be unhappy not scoring 30 points plus every game, but too many people forget that LeBron LOVES to pass. He LOVES getting teammates involved, so that’s not an issue. Honestly, I can see Bosh getting a little prickly, not being happy with being the third wheel and all that, but not Bron.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 3:22 pm
  One interesting side note to the Rose/Rondo argument. In head-to-head battles the past 2 seasons, the numbers look like this: ’08-09
  Rondo: 14.7ppg, 10.3apg, 4.3rpg
  Rose: 14.3ppg, 4.7apg, 2.3rpg ’09-10
  Rondo: 9.2ppg, 10.8apg, 5.2rpg
  Rose: 21.2ppg, 4.0apg, 4.5rpg I think that should settle it. But then again, this is SLAMonline…so it won’t settle anything. Still interesting to look at though.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 3:23 pm
  My bad, that didn’t format the way I wanted it to. The first set’s of numbers are from ’08-09 and the second set is from ’09-10

• MUBWAR Posted: Oct.12 at 3:25 pm
  overrated…someone should replace this writer for putting Rose ahead of Bosh and Duncan…

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.12 at 3:32 pm
  @Bryan yea I’m more interested in 09-10 stats. 08-09 stats are something to remember but they are useless and expired at this point considering the fact both PG’s games have changed (Rose game has dramatically). 09-10 is the most current we can base anything off. With that being said 09-10 Derrick Rose owned Rondo.

• MUBWAR Posted: Oct.12 at 3:34 pm
  why are you guys even comparing Bosh and Rose…Bosh is an all star PF averaging better 25 and 11 and some moron on this site put Rose (overrated pg) in front of him….

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 3:36 pm
  This my last post on this, I promise.
  The elite rebounders in the league get roughly anywhere from 11-14 boards a game.
  The good rebounders typically get about 9-11 rebounds per game.
  Mediocre is roughly 5-9 boards.
  Now, depending on your position, the number of boards you get per game looks better.
  A point guard who gets 6 boards a game looks outstanding, while a power forward who gets six boards looks wack.
  Rajan Rondo was putting up point guard numbers that would have been “good” for a power forward, let alone a point guard. The difference isn’t just the three boards, the difference is what those three boards mean in context. In context, that’s a big freaking gap considering the rebounding trends in the NBA. That’s my point.
  I’m not arguing Rondo is better now. I’m arguing he killed Rose that series, but clearly, you’re not going to agree with that argument. That’s fine.
  But, it wasn’t because the stats weren’t obvious, it’s because you’ve decided that there is not a huge difference between 6 boards and 9 boards.
  If Carmelo Anthony averaged 9 boards instead of the six he normally gets, people would be on his jock even more.
  If Jeff Green averaged 9 boards instead of the 6 he normally gets, there would no question about OKC offering him an extension. In basketball circles, there is a massive difference between six boards and nine boards, it’s not just three rebounds.
  Beyond that, I can’t really say anymore.

• Brandon Posted: Oct.12 at 3:43 pm
  Mubwar you must have not read the criteria for these rankings this year it clearly stated for the UPCOMING SEASON. But of course you have your opinion for calling someone overrated but you are only rated to what your peers believe you are. I believe if you have several writers responding to a specific subject on what they work on every day, its clearly an idea that he is properly rated where he should be but what do I know. LOL.

• Diesel Posted: Oct.12 at 3:47 pm
  @MUBWAR – Bosh couldn’t take a team that was built around him to the playoffs last year. Rose has taken his team to the playoffs each of his two years in the league and has up’d his game while in said playoffs both of those times. Bosh’s numbers are inflated numbers because he played on a bad team and most opposing teams were playing their second stringers by the end of the 3rd quarter.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.12 at 3:50 pm
  Mubwar – wow. I don’t like personally attacking other commentators on here (unless they go at me first) so I’ma just say…wow.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 3:57 pm
  You’re still using cross-arguments and reaching to make a point that isn’t there. For PG’s, 6 rebounds per game is good, 9 rebounds per game is great, but at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter because that’s not their jobs. Now, if we were talking assists, you’d have no quarrel from me. But making a big deal about rebounds from a PG, whatever. It just looks good on a stat line, that’s it. It’s not a measure of anything that’s relevant to the position. It’s a bonus, that’s it.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 4:02 pm
  Bryan, it could be argued that a team that is so good defensivley (like the Celtics)that forces most teams to shoot mainly jump shot, a PG that is able to gather up long rebounds (which the majority of threes/jumper misses turn into)would actually help exceptionally as opposed to a PG that leaks out (cheats) hoping to start a break, leaving a strong rotating defense a bit unbalanced if that help isn’t there.. That would apply, especially in the playoffs, when half-court sets and stops are at a premium.

• MUBWAR Posted: Oct.12 at 4:08 pm
  hey Diesel…i personally don’t like Rose(there i said it) and i wasn’t talking about who took the team the farthest…all im saying is Rose over Duncan and Bosh is f***ing ridiculous….and everyone Knows Rondo will eat him alive…i think the Soul of the team is on Noah’s shoulders….

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 4:11 pm
  @Eboy: Which would explain the disparity in rebounding numbers between the two guards. Excellent point, sir.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 4:12 pm
  @Mubwar: Rondo would eat Rose alive? Please refer to my 3:22 post, sir. Thanks.

• Brandon Posted: Oct.12 at 4:16 pm
  Now we have the real truth from Mubwar its a personal issue with Rose. You must be a boston fan but its okay if you feel that way more power to you. I understand the fear factor he must put on your team that you have to respond in that manner. He will prove you wrong in more than one way and it will be funny during the season when people will have to eat crow and say “man I was so wrong.”

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 4:17 pm
  Yeah, but I don’t know if that could be considered a “bonus”, B. If anything, that’s probably a critical strategy point for Doc knowing that Rondo, on most nights, won’t leave his scrambling bigs out to dry when they are putting on heavy pressure.

• meloman2.0 Posted: Oct.12 at 4:23 pm
  planting a seed: I know Kevin Durant is high on everones list, and i love the kid, hes great… but i still think Melos better as of right nowww

• MUBWAR Posted: Oct.12 at 4:26 pm
  Last year stats for Bryan Crawford
  Rose : 20 ppg, 6 apg and 3.8 rpg
  Rondo: 14 ppg, 10 apg, 4.5 rpg and an amazing 2.3 spg (with a ring i might add)
  RAJON RONDO IS THE BETTER POINT GUARD
  CONVERSATION CLOSED

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 4:26 pm
  Eboy, I was just saying that rebounds from a PG are a bonus. At that position the four things I care about most are points, assists, turnovers, and FT percentage. Anything else, like rebounds and steals (which I’m kind of on the fence about thanks to Steve Nash) are gravy.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 4:27 pm
  @Meloman is right, Melo is slightly better than Durant and has done it for a longer period of time. Give me Melo over KD any day.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 4:27 pm
  Just to make a quick point before I have to take off: Rondo was dominant in the series against the Bulls 2 seasons ago. He was dominant in two series this past one (against the Heat and the Cavs). To say that Rose is already above him because his scoring average is greater…it’s hard for that argument to hold weight until Derrick begins to establish himself as a lights out playoff performer. Rondo has kind of singlehandedly won three playoff series “on his own”, especially from his position. That’s hard to argue.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 4:33 pm
  @Mubwar: Since you put it in all caps, I guess so.

• Brandon Posted: Oct.12 at 4:38 pm
  Mubwar you are hilarious my friend. You stated he is a better point guard based off last year stats. First off I’m pretty sure if we had the talent that we have this year he would have had comparable stats as well. I’m also sure if he was a better point guard (cased closed) Coack K would not have started D.Rose on the USA team and have Rondo coming up with excuses saying he had to go back home. I do respect rondo but when people say case closed they have to realize basketball is a team sport so the surronding parts allow you to maintain the stats that you put up during the regular season.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 4:38 pm
  Eboy, I still say that having 3 HOF teammates makes everything about Rondo seem so much better than he really is. There’s just so many things that he can’t do that are hard for me to overlook. His teammates hide his deficiencies so much. Not saying that he isn’t a good player, but he’s certainly not as good as people think. That’s why he was cut from Team USA.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 4:39 pm
  BCrawford, I’m going to have to disagree with you when you said that rebounds and steals are just gravy. Those are the reasons why CP is the BEST PG today and why guys like Magic/Big O are widely acknowledged as the best GPGOAT. When are point is able to rebound and cause turnovers it puts them above those that don’t and makes their teams even more dangerous. SNash’s LOW rebounding and steal numbers are the BIGGEST reasons why I’m such a ANTI-nash fan, even a player people compare him to JStockon was a decent rebounder and the greatest thief of all-time, so Nash doesn’t have an excuse for being so bad in those areas.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 4:41 pm
  @Brandon: Great minds! Similar posts, same time, to two different people.

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 4:44 pm
  @Bryan Crawford – I agree with what matters to a PG but instead of points I care more about FG% – I would also add +/-, and on-court/off-court (mainly because its a PG and team efficiency is priority #1 for a PG)

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 4:45 pm
  @JT21: Steve Nash is actually a better rebounder over his career than Stockton. Look it up…

• Brandon Posted: Oct.12 at 4:48 pm
  @ B. Crawfored Exactly.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 4:49 pm
  @nbk: FG% is key as well, as PG needs to be able to shoot efficiently, but more importantly than that, he needs to be able to make FT’s. Guys will have off nights shooting the ball, but when you put them on the line, you need to be able to count on them. Admittedly, I’m not a huge +/- fan, but I see the value in it to a degree.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 4:50 pm
  @JT21: And guys like Big O and Magic are so much bigger than Rose and Rondo. If you’re 6-5+, I don’t care what position you play, you’d better be able to rebound the ball.

• SpaceJam Posted: Oct.12 at 4:56 pm
  There’s not as much d rose hate as I expected. Rose deserves this spot. His assist will go up b/c he finally has weapons at his disposal while his scoring average should stay about the same. His defense was pretty good @ Fiba so I’m not worried about that. Let’s see how many assist Rondo gets w/o his 4 hof friends

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 4:58 pm
  @BCrawford, alright forget their rebounding numbers what about steals? What is Nash’s excuse for being so porous in that area. For someone that’s guarding the player with the ball in his hand the most to be averaging such putrid steal numbers is shameful. Also CP who’s 6-1 once put up 5.5rpg 2 years ago and avgs. 4.7rpg for his career, so the height excuse doesn’t really fly.

• All net Posted: Oct.12 at 4:59 pm
  Brandon Roy no 11?

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 5:00 pm
  +/- wasn’t my thing for a while either. I got real interested in it after I read a story about the benefits of using it for role players. It from what i’ve seen so far is a very good indicator of which players contribute most to their teams success (minimum of about 15MPG) and also is a real good indicator of whether or not the coach is using the right lineups and combinations at the proper time. But i definately understand anyone that’s not much of a fan of its use, it doesn’t show much of anything for good players on bad teams which is where i tend to ignore it or use a median number lower then 0

• EJ Posted: Oct.12 at 5:01 pm
  I like Derrick Rose cause he can step it up, he plays great in the playoffs and steps up when his team needs him to. And I’ve stolen some of his moves and they are really good. I think he very well might be the 3rd best point in the NBA next year.

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 5:03 pm
  JTaylor – Steals are more a product of playing the passing lanes and taking risks. Allen Iverson led the league in steals more then once and was a horrid defender. And Chris Paul had the best statistical season of a PG (not named magic or oscar) of all time. He is/was on pace to be a top 5 player ever, and if you haven’t noticed..guys that special tend to conribute a little extra to their teams. (LIke when Wilt led the league in assists, or when Wade averaged over 2BPG) Nash’s defense is real bad granted but it isn’t as putrid as everyone tries to make it out to be. If it was he wouldn’t be the winningest PG this decade. (Not counting Derek Fisher)

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 5:11 pm
  ^Except John Stockton who was just a theif. Comparing any PG to him and his untouchable stats will always make the player being compared look like garbage. There is literally less then a 1% chance either his steals or assist record will EVER be broken. He was exceptional, and never won a title. SO obviously a ludicrous amount of steals are not THAT important.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 5:11 pm
  NBK, I’m NOT saying that AI or guys that had great steal numbers are/were great defender but they did create turnovers which led to extra possessions for their teams. While Nash on the other hand gets MURDERED on D and doesn’t even get steals. He is constantly guarding PGs so he should at least fall by mistake into at least 1 spg but dude avgs. 0.8 F*CKING steals for his career SHAMWOW!!!.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 5:12 pm
  NBK
  Worse defender over the course of their career Iverson or Nash?

• bdub Posted: Oct.12 at 5:13 pm
  Stats dont lie.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 5:17 pm
  @JT21: I only mentioned the height because you brought up Big O and Magic. Those dudes are big, they should rebound the ball like that. As for steals, most of that is really anticipation and primarily occurs in the passing lanes. You don’t really see guys rip other guys heads up too often. Some guys are just better at anticipating and then getting in postion to steal the ball than others.

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 5:19 pm
  Oh nash for sure. Just wanted to point out that SPG doesn’t show much

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 5:20 pm
  JTaylor these are NBA players not HS kids. They shouldn’t just crap possessions into other peoples hands. Especially every single game of a guys career.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 5:26 pm
  NBK, WHAT? please break it down in layman’s term for me because I didn’t understand a word you just said. Was that broken english?

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 5:27 pm
  @JTaylor, Nash also takes more charges then any of those guys that get more steals. which create possessions, so compare those numbers too.. infact a charge can be seen as more beneficial considering it also tacks a foul onto the other player. Stop saying Shamwow btw its not original

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 5:28 pm
  so your illiterate?

• robert Posted: Oct.12 at 5:31 pm
  good for d rose number 1 pg before the year is over i think his numbers will be ppg 26 ast 9 reb 6 i say his stats will go up because pure talent and hard work coming together and some new nice teammates don’t forget he is the star of this team so he is supposed to be the best scorer and to develop as one even if it is not a common role for a pg d rose isn’t a common pg tho that said boozer will do well tho but none the less this is d roses team he is the prince of chi town after all enough said.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 5:36 pm
  I agree NBK.
  Iverson fairly poor early, improved under Larry Brown to about average, regressed after Brown left to very poor. He was always a ball hawk though and forced serious problems in the passing lanes his entire career to the point that if you didn’t account for him, he could create havoc.
  Nash takes charges. He does this pretty well. Honestly, I don’t understand why Nash and Dirk struggle so much on defense. They have the physical tools and have had the tools their entire careers.

• SAB Posted: Oct.12 at 5:43 pm
  blah blah blah
  i think slam got it right last year, and i think they got it right this year. he’s gonna prove a lot of people wrong.

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 5:43 pm
  Truely, its a matter of enjoying defense IMO. Nash and Dirk both love offense and clearly become disinterested on D. Speaking of Coaches making PG’s good at defense (iverson/larry brown comment) Derrick Rose is getting the defensive coach that made that system that has most of the intelligent basketball community believing Rondo is the best defensive PG in the league, so I wonder how much he improves Rose on that end. considering he is atrocious

• Bryan Posted: Oct.12 at 5:49 pm
  Rose is about to explode this ranking suits him. Not every superstar has to be a great defender to be considered as such and yes as a matter of fact stats do lie. Often.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 5:54 pm
  NBK, no I’m not illiterate but I don’t understand the language of village people. Also players that take charges are the worst scum on the earth, what kind of ish is that? You’re guarding a player but instead of going up to challenge their shot like any grown man would, they sneak up and slide under them. That’s a b*tch move and the league should outlaw charges, they are made for NON defensive suckers like SNash.

• Michael Posted: Oct.12 at 5:56 pm
  MUBWAR wow, go away.

• Bryan Posted: Oct.12 at 5:58 pm
  JT21 and Shane Battier one of the best defenders in the league? and in college ball history? He took a lot of charges.

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 6:02 pm
  obviously you don’t or haven’t played legitimate competitive basketball. if you ever had a real coach in your life or some basketball experience you would understand the importance of taking a charge and what it does for your team. that last comment said all i needed to know about you JTaylor, I won’t be wasting time arguing with you anymore.

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 6:05 pm
  oh and needless insults are only going to force you to post under a new name. nobody cares for it

• ai come back Posted: Oct.12 at 6:05 pm
  steals dont make u the best defender they mean u got fast hands……….nash is still not as good a defender as ai though period and how did this turn to nash vs ai…..? i thought this was about d rose gettin hate IM FROM CHI TOWN i love my man d rose but its his third year its almost impossible to put him as 13th in the league……..

• ai come back Posted: Oct.12 at 6:06 pm
  my bad number 12

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 6:07 pm
  @JT21: That last comment of yours raises a boatload of questions. So steals are cool, but charges are not even though both lead to turnovers and offensive possessions? SMH…

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 6:09 pm
  Bryan, I know but he at least tries puts a hand up when players shoot and goes up for the block when they drive. But guys like Nash do neither and when 7 footers are taking charges on 6-0 PGs that’s when you know the sh*t has hit the fan. It’s detrimental to the defensive aspect of the game and is the reason why there are so FEW shot-blockers today. Big guys are more worried with practicing/taking charges than working on their shot-blocking skills.

• Mr. Robinson Posted: Oct.12 at 6:10 pm
  I keep telling yall this dude JT dont have anything flying man.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.12 at 6:18 pm
  JTaylor – are you getting caking charges and flopping confused? I can see a guy getting barely bumped and falling to the ground violently as being a b*tch move, but when a dude is running straight at you full speed and you stand your ground and take the contact to give your team possesion, that’s what’s up.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.12 at 6:25 pm
  Charges are good.
  Flops are horrible.
  Nash walks the line. He really walks the line.
  And I agree that neither he nor Dirk really “want” to play great defense. That’s been my theory forever. I just think it’s strange how that isn’t seen are more of a problem, you know?

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 6:25 pm
  @Enigmatic yeah sort of but when big guys don’t go up for blocks anymore instead are waiting for a guy to jump and then slide under him there’s a BIG problem. How many times did you see guys like Hakeem and Ewing do that? NEVER instead they went up to challenge the shot EVERY single time even though there was a high possibility of getting dunked on. All I’m saying is that it plays a role in why there are so FEW big men and shot-blockers in the league today.

• ai come back Posted: Oct.12 at 6:27 pm
  allenp agreed nash knows ppl diss him bout his d but his d has only improvd slightly over the years

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 6:29 pm
  I think it really isn’t much of a problem until the playoffs start. Since they legitimately are only playing a max of 20 playoff games a year its hard for the average fan/non-expert media to pick up on the severity of the problem. But Nash to his credit does not get outplayed by opposing PG’s in playoff series. Except a few years ago against Tony Parker but Nash had better offensive numbers and didn’t even guard parker.

• CHICAGO SAID IT YUP Posted: Oct.12 at 6:55 pm
  ppl keep bringing up the 2008 series when rose was a rookie and STILL was killing despite rondo geat series BUT no one brings up the fact that the past few times ive seen rose and rondo on the same court rose has torchd him….and it wasnt even close

• BallerDude Posted: Oct.12 at 6:56 pm
  Derrick Rose isn’t better than Chris Bosh…Personally I believe he was ranked a little too high, anywhere between 13-15 would’ve been perfect.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.12 at 6:57 pm
  @JTaylor21 – Yeah, I see what you mean. I know you’re not a big Dwight Howard fan, but ya gotta admit, at least he’s one of those dudes that’ll attempt to block a shot.

• Teddy-the-Bear Posted: Oct.12 at 7:02 pm
  Tim Duncan is going to do more with and for his team than Derrick Rose this year. That’s my prediction.

• shan Posted: Oct.12 at 7:03 pm
  so, BRoy is next.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.12 at 7:06 pm
  @Teddy – not with the limited minutes Pop will have TD playing.

• Teddy-the-Bear Posted: Oct.12 at 7:13 pm
  Good point–but playoffs?

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.12 at 7:21 pm
  Playoffs wise, it depends on which team is healthier. A healthy Spurs team is still a threat to make the conference finals, MAYBE the NBA finals. A healthy Bulls team are also a threat to make the conference finals, in my humble and homer opinion. But Rose always blows the f*ck up in the playoffs, Duncan ups his game too but he doesn’t explode in the playoffs anymore like Rose does now. That being said, Duncan is one of the greatest players of all time, and Rose would be hella-happy to finish up a career as succsessfull (can’t spell for sh*t, been at work too long) as TD’s.

• Lz - Cphfinest3 Posted: Oct.12 at 7:32 pm
  Great to see Allenp showing this tread how to construct and shoot down arguments. While BC use the ‘eye’ test, better get them Urkels on next time because what you saw was not what happened. Rondo owned Rose in that series. Now the gap is smaller and they are pretty even in my eyes. Rose better at getting his, scoring and Rondo more or less better at everything else, with a huge lead on D. Rose is very good and has huge potential and as a Bulls’ fan this is great. He is however still overrated. I most def think he’ll be one of the best PG’s in the L (he is really close now), but players like Nash, Rondo, Westbrook are still at the same level or better. Those praising Rose’s Olympic showing and especially D; don’t forget that Westbrook played the bulk of the minutes in the later rounds because his D was way better than Rose’s (also the reason that those two are closer than most people will admit). I hope Rose shows that he merits this ranking this season, still think it is a little too high (15-20 about right.

• The Seed Posted: Oct.12 at 7:37 pm
  Players gonna play
  Rose is gonna ball
  Who cares
  because the Hate is gonna fall
  Rose is going to dunk on you
  Yes he do
  Rose going to be leading his crew
  BOOK IT!!!

• Lz - Cphfinest3 Posted: Oct.12 at 7:42 pm
  @Seed: If that was supposed to be a rap, that stuff was real weak. BOOK IT!

• The Seed Posted: Oct.12 at 7:47 pm
  ^^^Your right, I failed, was thinking of R.Kelly song rhythm to it.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.12 at 7:52 pm
  That’s exactly what I was thinking, the R. Kelly song Ignition

• Stephon Posted: Oct.12 at 8:01 pm
  Glad that D-Rose got #12 on the list. Very talented guard who can it to the rack with ease. Only thing he needs to work on is his shot. Once that’s consistent watch out!

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 8:04 pm
  @Lz: And you call yourself a Bulls fan. Ha! Anyway, show praise if you must, but it was still not proven by how Rondo abused DRose. The numbers don’t support it and towards the end, the argument became very disjointed. So I stand by my reasoning. Stats, eye test, whatever… Rose gave as good as he got and if rebounding and assists are all anyone has to go on without taking other obvious basketball related factors into consideration, then the argument was and is wack.

• TrailBlazing&SportingLisbon Posted: Oct.12 at 8:09 pm
  co sign eboy, tsizzle and Im sure A LOT of other people, including non blind and smart bulls fans…@the Seed, youre lil rap was A BIG FAIL.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 8:10 pm
  I’m not sure about anyone else, but where I’m from (Chicago) when you say someone got abused on the basketball court, rebounds and assists never factor into the equation. It’s ALWAYS about who scored the most points.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 8:34 pm
  @BCrawford, that’s why every city has their own different style because like you stated Chitown it’s all about how many points you scored (MJ’s doing) while where I from it’s about who impacted the game the most whether it’s scoring, pass, rebounding or playing lock down D (I can’t vouch for everyone in the NO so it’s not a consensus).

• fiz Posted: Oct.12 at 8:36 pm
  Rose is not fringe top-10. The best he’s been able to do is a first-round exit. In my opinion that does not merit a #12 ranking. He’s certainly top 20, however he shouldn’t be this high.

• The Seed Posted: Oct.12 at 8:41 pm
  Everywhere is about scoring, I am from NC, come on with the rebounds and assists crap. If you ball, you want to score and that’s it.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 8:44 pm
  @JT21: Word? You ever heard of Bo Lester? What does he do? How did he make his name in the NO? If there is a basketball city where someone is given props for “abusing” someone without taking points into consideration, then that’s a place where the basketball and the players are both low-level. If you outscore your man while making it difficult for him to get his, that’s abuse. Not two guys averaging the same number of points, which then causes the argument to have to switch to who had the most points and rebounds. That’s wack where I’m from.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 8:47 pm
  My bad, I meant assists & rebounds…

• nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 8:56 pm
  Around here its about winning. If you win, you can say whatever you want. If you lose you lose.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 9:00 pm
  @nbk: Winning, that goes without saying….but that’s not the issue here.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 9:06 pm
  BCrawford, of course I know who McCalebb is but don’t act like dude’s game speaks for the entire NO. Also I’m not talking about just assists and rebounds because that sh*t would be hard to keep track of but it just not about scoring the most points. You can abuse a guy with shutdown D, be a beast on the boards or just kill them with filthy passes. Like till this day I remember this dude that used to dominate/abuse with his court vision but can’t remember dudes that abused people with their scoring.

• jonny Posted: Oct.12 at 9:10 pm
  This is complete BS, there is no way Rose is top 12 in the league. He is easily a top 5 player and anyone who says differently is a bonafide H.A.T.E.R. Averaging 20 and 6 for the season without playing a second of defense definitely means he is one of the GOAT’S. Micheal Jordan wasn’t as good as Rose during his second year. Seriously, Imagine how much of a MONSTER Rose would be if he got a jump shot, if he played D, if he had better teammates, if he grew 5 inches, if Rondo, Nash, Cp3, Williams, Parker, Arenas, Evans all retired. I am majorly disappointed in you SLAM, ROSE might be the best pg of all time.

• TrailBlazing&SportingLisbon Posted: Oct.12 at 9:10 pm
  @bryan crawford..Rondo dindt abuse Rose by almost averaging a tripdubb and Rose didnt also by scoring a lot in that game 1…its a fun matchup and Rose has more “potencial” but today Rajon´s the better player…only thing Rose does better as a PG is scoring while in every other area Rondo´s still better..that might not be the case a year from now BUT THATS THE SECOND TIER AFTER DWILL AND CP3, so he got ways to go before getting there.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 9:13 pm
  So maybe “abuse” is the wrong choice of words when referencing Rose vs Rondo then. Rajon “dominated” DRose in certain areas, but he didn’t abuse him. That, I can live with…

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.12 at 9:18 pm
  @Trailblazing: Rose didn’t just score a lot in game 1, he scored a lot practically the whole series. Check his stats. And I’m still not convinced as everyone else as to how good Rondo really is. I think he’s very fortunate, but that’s about it…

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 9:21 pm
  Johnny, put down the brown paper bag down for a while you’re starting to sound like Lindsay Lohan’s drinking patna.

• Bassbesteck Posted: Oct.12 at 9:26 pm
  your talking about an ish that’s 2 YEARS OLD! Who cares iuf Rose abused Rondo or otherwise in 2009? (Although it was one heck of a series, no doubt to that)… We’re thinking about this next season as a whole, and I bet, Rose is more important to his team and will develop more than Rondo is/will, since it is only his (Rose’S) third year in the L, while Rondo slowly but steadily enters what we may call his “Prime” at which he is a great defender and playmaker but a weeeeeak jumpshooter… So who’s better: Depends on what you need on your Fantasy League Team. I personally would choose Rose, simply because I think at the point you need a strong but unselfish offensive force, just gives you more options, when he can go inside, shoot from midrange – maybe even from deep, if DRose really starts working hard on his 3s – OR pass – the latter only if given the right teammates no flip murrays or hinrichs.
  But measuring this on stats from over a season ago (and with one of them being a rookie and the other one also only in his second postseason) is just plain trolling…

• t-sizzle Posted: Oct.12 at 9:27 pm
  so many good pgs this year.. anyone else just saw john WOW play? kid’s quick and got composure and is a willing passer. going to be fun all these pg matchups in the coming years. let us just watch it all play out. right now, since none of them have won anything (except rondo, who’s good but also placed in a favorable situation) or done anything major including cp3 and to some extent dwill, all the young pgs are more or less equal

• t-sizzle Posted: Oct.12 at 9:34 pm
  actually it is one of the reasons why rose is 15-20 to me, cuz so many good pgs with tons of potential out there. i do consider him really good, so 12 is borderline acceptable, just not an inch higher than that, when considering the other young pgs talents and capabilities.. cp3 and dwill still got something to prove, have played longer in this league and are accustomed to playing at a higher level, which is why they are considered at the top of the list at the moment

• B-Moore Posted: Oct.12 at 10:00 pm
  Deron Williams > Chris Paul

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 10:05 pm
  ^I call Bullsh*t on that!! CP’s theme song this season should be Roy Jones’ “Yall Must Have Forgot”.

• robert Posted: Oct.12 at 10:05 pm
  RONDO IS JUST AVERAGE TALENT WITH A GOOD TEAM ALL AND IF ROSE SCORED SO MUCH ON RONDO MEANS HE KILLED HIS RONDOS DEFENSE WHICH IS ALL HE HAS SO YEAH D ROSE IS BETTER NOW HONESTLY YOU GUYS KNOW ASSIST COME FROM YOUR PLAYERS MAKING THE SHOT RIGHT SO OF COURSE IF RONDO HAS BETTER TEAMMATES HE WILL LOOK LIKE THE BETTER PURE PG DUUUHHH
  IF ROSE HAD THAT TEAM BOSTON WOULD HAVE WON SO YEAH DO ROSE IS ALL READY BETTER THAN RONDO ALL YEAH BETTER THE TEAM IS EASIER IT IS TO PLAY DEFENSE
  OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT!!!CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT I MEAN LIKE WHAT THE F… YES I AM BEING SARCASTIC FOR ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE VERGE OF BEING RETARDED.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 10:12 pm
  The Heat vs Moscow game just ended and I will be the first to say that CB1 will be the most important and valuable heat this season. Wade/Bron will get the most headlines and attention (rightfully so) but if the Heat win the chip this season Bosh will be one of the BIGGEST reasons. Dude’s midrange is TOP-5 in terms of PF and is an absolute beast on the boards.

• DreXnaW21 Posted: Oct.12 at 10:15 pm
  DRose deserves #12 and he’s only getting better.
  In the future he will be one of the greatest point guards in the league with high potential. It’d be cool to see him win a ring but he needs a team and the 2010 – 2011 Bulls look good for this season.

• The Fresh Prince of Nsam Posted: Oct.12 at 10:26 pm
  The debate between AllenP and BCrawford just reminded me of the Zone D – Hand check D debate. KKdToro and a waste of time. BCrawford, I like u man but come on, I know u like ChiTown and all, but u r supposed 2 b a journalist (r u?) Sometimes u r so biaised that it gets ridiculous…
  Plus u r Slam personnel and I expect u 2 b kid of a moderator and not follow some commentors (like Eboy, my man JT21) in the gutter of insults and personal attacks were they sometimes go…
  Anyway, just my opinion and I do believe that at this point, DRose and RR are not in the same league. RR is a good (sometimes great) PG, 2nd to 3rd man in a very talented and well managed team, while DRose is a franchise player.

• jonny Posted: Oct.12 at 10:56 pm
  ­@ fresh prince. How is Rose a franchise player if he can’t pass the ball. All he can do is score, and in terms of being a franchise “scoring” PG, he would have to put up Iverson/Arenas numbers (around 30ppg) in order to be deserving of such a label. As of yet, there is no way 21, 3.8 and 6 are franchise numbers and I would take 14, 4.4, 10, and 2.3 over those any day of the week. How many recent championship teams can you name that had a PG as their highest scorer? ZERO. A good passing PG is much harder to find than a high scoring one and if I were to build a championship team I wouldn’t want a high scoring low distributing PG. I love Rondo, Nash, Arenas, Parker, Westbrook, Billups, Curry, Evans and Wall but, until proven otherwise, the only franchise PG’s in the L at this moment are Paul and D will. It’s not even debatable.

• slick ric Posted: Oct.12 at 11:04 pm
  Rondo did not abuse Rose, All Crawford is trying to say is that Rose held his own even though he was outplayed, but rondo played on the better team who had MUCH better team defense that was able to contain rose on some occasions, but he was a rookie and still held his own.

• slick ric Posted: Oct.12 at 11:22 pm
  I’m a huge D rose fan but I think its Chris Paul and then every other point. If you ask me he’s the best point guard by far. Deron was only said to be the best because Chris got injured but when he gets back, he’ll be number one again.

• spit hot fiyah Posted: Oct.13 at 1:16 am
  299

• spit hot fiyah Posted: Oct.13 at 1:17 am
  300

• Caboose Posted: Oct.13 at 1:32 am
  Ok, I’ve read all the way down to 3:36 post by Allenp. At the start of the Rose/Rondo series, I was on Bryan’s side: Rose’s scoring lead clearly showed that it wasn’t a one sided battle. However, once the correct stats were shown and the scoring gap between Rose and Rondo was reduced to nearly none, I shifted to Allenp’s point of view. His posts directly addressed most of Bryan’s claims and offered solid evidence to back them up. Bryan did make some good points (that I believe were spot on) but were based on some subjective evidence. Therefore, I agree with Allenp in that Rondo did indeed abuse Rose that series. And to Harry and Jtaylor, look at what Allenp and Bryan do. That’s real debating.

• Caboose Posted: Oct.13 at 1:33 am
  Ok, I’ve read all the way down to 3:36 post by Allenp. At the start of the Rose/Rondo series debate, I was on Bryan’s side: Rose’s scoring lead clearly showed that it wasn’t a one sided battle (not to mention I’m a big Rose fan). However, once the correct stats were shown and the scoring gap between Rose and Rondo was reduced to nearly none, I shifted to Allenp’s point of view. His posts directly addressed most of Bryan’s claims and offered solid evidence to back them up. Bryan did make some good points (that I believe were spot on) but were based on some subjective evidence. Therefore, I agree with Allenp in that Rondo did indeed abuse Rose that series. And to Harry and Jtaylor, look at what Allenp and Bryan do. That’s real debating.

• lazaruz Posted: Oct.13 at 5:15 am
  laughable right hurr. get off this guys d too slam.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.13 at 7:34 am
  @Fresh Prince: Who did I attack or insult personally?
  @Caboose: That’s fine if you (or anyone else) agree with Allenp, I still don’t. My point remains that if you have to rely on assists and rebound numbers to solidify your case then that means either you have no case, or, the word “abuse” is used in the wrong context. Like I said, “dominant” would have been the more appropriate term to describe that battle between the two because in my mind, when you say that one player abused another, then that means he consistently outscored him while making it difficult for his counterpart to do anything. That didn’t happen and if anyone thinks it did, well, more power to them. They’re wrong…

• Caboose Posted: Oct.13 at 9:11 am
  Bryan, I respect that viewpoint, I think the whole debate simply stems from a differing definition of “abuse.” You may indeed be right, “dominate” may indeed be a better term.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.13 at 10:11 am
  @Caboose: It’s cool. I tend to speak from the perspective of having played ball competitively against very good comp. I still do, actually. Therefore, a lot of what I say tends to get lost in translation. I may not outline my arguments in the most concise and “logical” manner — most times out of sheer laziness, I’ll admit — but it’s not that I can’t. I just feel that I think and look at things from the perspective of a “basketball player” and not just as a fan of the game which we all are, of course, but the viewpoint is different. If you just play this game casually or if you can’t or don’t play it at all, then a lot of my positions won’t make sense and that’s simply because that person can’t relate to them. This game is very easy to understand and learn, but you gain a different perspective and outlook when you play it at certain levels and against certain kinds of competition.

• smooth Posted: Oct.13 at 10:30 am
  hell yeah drose is a bad ass i always watch him and the bulls and play with him on 2k10 i heard he was getting his three’s down this year. cant wait to see him and the new and improved bulls

• smooth Posted: Oct.13 at 10:32 am
  o yeah durant better be in the top three ha

• VisionofGreatness Posted: Oct.13 at 11:21 am
  D-Rose is a top ten player. I don’t care who you have to move outside of Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Durant, Deron Williams and Chris Paul. And as far as the Rondo-Rose discussion, let’s not forget that D-Rose was a rookie…Rondo had been in the league for a few seasons. However you cut it, Rose’s performance was more impressive because it was his first season on a team where the second best player was Kirk Hinrich (no disrespect to him). Rose didn’t have Ray Allen spotting up in the corner and Paul Pierce on the other wing. We’ve never seen a player like Derrick. Fact.

• smooth Posted: Oct.13 at 11:55 am
  true that i got yo back lol

• Elvis Freshly Posted: Oct.13 at 12:22 pm
  Why is everyone still on the heat’s sacks? seriously. “heat have a free pass to a ring” blah blah.. CELTICS are the team to beat in the east NOT the heat.

• Elvis Freshly Posted: Oct.13 at 12:24 pm
  @smooth.. sorry KD is not top 3, or 4 Kobe
  LeBron
  Wade
  Carmelo

• feez22 Posted: Oct.13 at 12:57 pm
  lol derrick rose #12… well if this is a ranking for potential this upcoming season than im fine with that. too bad it isn’t. isn’t a ranking supposed to consider the players immediate past as well? rose is the 5th best pg in the nba behind cp3, deron, nash, rondo yet he’s the 12th best player in the L? wth am i missing here? all 4 pg’s i listed pass exponentially better than rose, have much better b-ball I.Q., are better leaders and floor generals and most of all except for rondo are established #1 players. I don’t know about yall but imo Rose is nothing but a second banana which isn’t really a bad thing since wade/lebron 2 guys that can flip that 2nd banana tag this season will be top 5 players on this list. With that being said rose at this point is still more of an ATHLETE than a True b-ball player. his ft shooting was spotty last yr, his jumper came along but wasn’t that great and talk about leading guy’s team only made the playoffs by 1 game in the crappy east(remember guys this is why ppl were criticising bosh for not winning…) Again if this list is on potential than cool… but it obviously isn’t. Rose is not a top 12 player in this game due to the fact that he isn’t even a top 4 PG in this league. To the bulls fans take your homer glasses off right now and tell me with a straight face that he is in the same league as cp3, d-will, nash… bc i will say he isn’t even close. again he doesn’t have the floor vision, leadership, passing ability, shooting ability or basketball I.Q. that those 3 have and imo will be hard pressed to develop that this year. Thankfully his team will be a high seed in the playoffs (hopefully) and he will be able to show us what he truly is. at this point, nothing but a budding star. people criticise lebron for not having a “killer instinct” well guess what rose doesn’t either.

• smooth Posted: Oct.13 at 1:01 pm
  do you work with the magizine if you do then my bad but highly doubt it with your stupidy carmelo doesnt even come close to bieng in front of durant mabey wade but i dont see it

• smooth Posted: Oct.13 at 1:03 pm
  that was to elvis

• Elvis Freshly Posted: Oct.13 at 2:33 pm
  See I purposely waited 31mins just to see if you would correct your spelling error, but your “STUPIDITY” didn’t allow you to do so. Next time try using basketball knowledge to show why your opinion holds weight instead of 2nd grade insults and spelling.

• ab40 Posted: Oct.13 at 4:00 pm
  No. And in my mind Rondo is a better pg. this guy is steve francis all over again. I don’t believe the hype.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.13 at 4:12 pm
  @Caboose To go back and forth over ones interpretation of the word “abuse” when in reality you should be explaining why or why not Rose is number 12 isn’t how you debate. Quite frankly the “abuse” may or may not have taken place TWO YEARS AGO. They did make evident how easily it is for one to go off subject and how easy it is to get incoherent to follow.

• Harry Twatter Posted: Oct.13 at 4:14 pm
  But I do understand and agree with Bryan %100 on that subject.

• lockon Posted: Oct.14 at 3:33 am
  give him a cover for your season preview. him and maybe kevin durant and rajon rondo to open this season. i would not want back to back lebron covers (even if you will include wade or bosh) that should only be for mj23

• rob Posted: Oct.14 at 3:59 am
  id say as of right now and for a while. rondo has been a lot better. statistics aside. he is the best player on his team now, and he’s come a long way from just bringing the ball up to the big 3. rose is young and exciting, but He’s more comparable to tyreke evans and now john wall as we shall see. guys who can score and make it flashy but arent totally capable of taking a team to a title. maybe in a couple years if rose proves himself worthy then we could argue in his favor. but as of now..rondo got tht ring

• SLAM ONLINE | » Top 50: Pau Gasol, no. 10 Posted: Oct.14 at 9:33 pm
  [...] Derrick Rose [...]

• robert Posted: Oct.15 at 3:30 am
  @rob wow i can not believe we have the same name btw d rose stats are almost the same as b roys look it up and there better than his first and second year yes i know sg pg different positions but none that less give d rose the same respect bi..hs.

• rainman Posted: Oct.15 at 12:05 pm
  overrated. simply put. VERY good player, dont get me wrong. but overrated by others, which unfortunatly for him is not his fault. He has no jump shot, and his defence is below average, and he is a so so passer for a point guard.

• slick ric Posted: Oct.15 at 3:54 pm
  Rainman and others gone eat their words

• kevin Posted: Oct.15 at 8:27 pm
  Haha rose is a good player but it’s hilarious that this top 50 put him above steve nash rajon rondo and i would rather have stephen curry too. Rose is a pretty fresh player too, though, and he’s gonna be in the L for years to come.

• riggs Posted: Oct.17 at 10:24 pm
  rondo > rose

• Slips Posted: Oct.18 at 2:49 pm
  Rose simply won’t be a better player than nash next season. The top 3 PGs in the league are still paul, deron, and nash, plain and simple. You can debate over paul and deron for #1, but i still think it’s paul. For the future, of course you’d pick rose, but at this point in his career, he just doesn’t have the court savvy and ability to run a team as well as Nash.

• slick ric Posted: Oct.18 at 10:14 pm
  rondo <<< Rose

• swizzy Posted: Oct.20 at 11:09 am
  You guys are simply nuts if you think Derrick Rose is better than Rondo… Rondo keeps averaging a triple double everytime he faces Rose!! Rondo is simply a better playmaker in the point guard position and thats what matters the most.

• slick ric Posted: Oct.21 at 6:12 pm
  @ swizzy and your’e a crazy, “everytime”, that was only one playoff series, D- rose has got his post season and regular season career highs thus far on rondo. plus it doesnt hurt to have four hall of famers. rondo aint makin them better they was already great before dude was even born.

• BLAH Posted: Oct.25 at 1:38 pm
  “Hard work beats talent, if talent does work hard”. Rondos basketball IQ is veryyyy veryyy high. Rose doesnt know how to run a team yet the way rondo does, so util then, SHHH. The big 3 are ollldddd declining heavily injury prone players anyway..remember the 09 playoffs when KG was out, RONDO averaged a tripple double lol. When you have help the way rondo does his numbers wont b all that great[even tho hes still top 5, scary right? lol], but when the help leaves they go up. No wonder why CP3, derons, and nash[2-time mvp] nubers are higher and they dont win anything, bcoz they are doing everything by themselvs. Just wait, soon as the big 3 retire and rondo is left alone he wont win rings but he’ll get in the MVP race, i garuntee it.

• jose medina Posted: Nov.1 at 9:03 pm
  Mr. D Rose will be the next super star wait until his cast gets healthy there will be no stoping D Rose. I think he should change his nickname to Mr. Lighting DRose. of the chi-town. I think I will win the autographed ball I’m a die hard bulls fan all the way from cali. Chicagotito

• Jumpmanjay23 Posted: Nov.29 at 12:00 pm
  Man, just read all the comments here. No doubt SLAM was very close on ranking D. Rose. Rose been seeing doubters his entire life. Back in his HS days, the Chi showered him with tough love and lots of doubt. Then the doubtin’ went national when he signed with Memphis. I will admit, I was a doubter all throughout his HS days until his senior year. I started to believe then. All this kid does is play the game and stay humble.

• Jumpmanjay23 Posted: Nov.29 at 12:03 pm
  …and his “Why not” MVP comments don’t sound so crazy now. Dude puts his team on the back of his shoulders, kinda like another fellow PG All-Star and proud Illini, D-Will.

• Ben Osborne Posted: Nov.29 at 12:07 pm
  Thank you Jumpmanjay23
  couldnt agree more!

• Harry Twatter Posted: Dec.3 at 3:01 pm
  Can you say MVP???

• wall ball Posted: Jan.5 at 4:46 pm
  What u got to say now EBoy?

• Harry Twatter Posted: Feb.17 at 7:06 pm
  Should b higher

• jbsmooth Posted: Feb.22 at 8:47 pm
  any1 who puts deron williams or steve nash ahead of rose is out of their mind and as for rondo all i have to say is this. NO PG LEADS THEIR TEAM BETTER THEN DROSE. i could average 10 assists playing with kg pierce and ray allen. lmao

• Tom Posted: Mar.8 at 4:32 pm
  Haaa, i remember posting on this site years ago and one man in particular ‘eboy’ did not think that D. Rose belonged in the top ten let alone the top five like i been sayin since his rookie year. Maybe in the coming years, you guys will understand that this D. Rose is not only a top two player in the league right now, but will go down as one of the all time greats (top 10) all day every day. I’m 27, D Rose will easily be one of the greatest that I have seen play since i was a little kid, and you will never get a fair conversation with an old timer about Wilt and Russell and all those older guys compared to D.Rose.