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Thursday, October 25th, 2012 at 12:00 pm  |  182 responses

Top 50: Deron Williams, no. 7

The definitive ranking of the NBA’s best players for ’12-13.

by Adam Figman / @afigman

I like this Top 50 thing that we do because it feels like such a fresh start; all of the rankings are performance predictions for the upcoming season, so mild hiccups and set backs in previous years should have little effect on where the players who experienced ‘em are placed on this list, as long as we believe said hiccups/set backs are stuck in the past. What’s to come is all that matters.

And Deron Williams is kind of the posterboy for this mindset, no? If there’s anyone we’re supposed to remove from the context of his last couple of basketball-playing years and judge from a completely blank canvas, it’s DWill. Think about all that’s going to be different between ’11-12 and ’12-13 for this guy: New teammates (hello, Joe Johnson, CJ Watson, Mirza Teletovic, Josh Childress, Andray Blatche, Jerry Stackhouse and a full year with Gerald Wallace). Healthy teammates (hello, Bropez). New contract (hello, $$$). New stadium (what up, Brooklyn?).

It’s almost like Kanye and Rhymefest made that one song way back when about Deron Williams’ summer of 2012.

That’s just a convoluted way of saying that this guy is finally getting a new beginning. And with a new beginning will come an enhanced spotlight, and with an enhanced spotlight will come a renewed conversation about what he’s actually capable of on the court, in comparison with his esteemed peers. Which is where we come in.

Williams has had his moments of slightly sustained greatness, taking those late-’00s Utah Jazz squads to the postseason and assisting Team USA during a pair of Gold medal runs. But as of the past couple of years any true greatness—that unbelievable, unforeseeable, OMG wow how is he that fucking good at basketball greatness—has come in very short bursts. A 57-point frenzy here. A 38-point, 8 three-pointer barrage against a helpless Jeremy Lin there. Some insane 4-point plays. Couple of game-winners. A few ridiculous dishes to unsuspecting and occasionally incompetent teammates.

But what we expect from NBA superstars, especially those that get slotted in at points like this (and higher) on lists like this, is firmly sustained greatness. Leading deep Playoff runs; MVP consideration; scoring titles; Defensive Player of the Year awards; Championships. Basically, it’s the ability to say, “Man, _____ is unreal” during bball-focused conversations with friends or strangers, with zero context needed, because it’s that true—and it’s a fact that’s jumping off the television screen every time he’s on it.

It’ll be tough for Williams to jump into that category, if only because the Texas native’s game doesn’t exactly call for that form of fan love. How many people, Nets fans excluded, do you know consider Deron Williams the hands-down best point guard in the game? Certainly a few, but surely not many. He doesn’t have Derrick Rose’s explosiveness, Rajon Rondo’s fiery all-over prowess, Chris Paul’s ability to use every ounce of open space to his advantage or Russell Westbrook’s raw power. Nothing leaps out. But to a degree, he has all of those things, and he has them all at a high enough level that on any given night you might want him on your side over any of the aforementioned names. Lots of nights, actually. He has no tangible weaknesses, at least none that I know of. He’s like the Toyota Camry of amazing point guards, and I promise that was compliment. (The “amazing” part was really important.)

Anyway, look: his placement here, at number seven, makes sense. There probably wouldn’t have been much of an outrage if Williams was slotted a couple spots lower, and there’s probably an argument that could be made that the 6-3 PG is deserving of a position one or two notches higher up.

Seven works, though. He’s sitting above your average All-Star—typing that felt really weird—and beneath the NBA’s uppermost tier. And he’s young enough (at 28) where a great season may push his name up this list next year. No more massive losing streaks, no more pouting. He won’t have a monster statistical jump (seriously, look how consistent these numbers are from year to year; a sudden increase across the board seems unlikely), but it’ll be about what Williams is capable of doing to the franchise’s win column and subsequent postseason run with a whole bunch of new…everything. Here’s guessing a lot.

And here’s to a clean slate.


Where should Deron Williams rank in the SLAMonline Top 50?

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SLAMonline Top 50 Players 2012
Rank Player Team Position Pos. Rank
50 Greg Monroe Pistons C 8
49 Tyreke Evans Kings PG 14
48 Brandon Jennings Bucks PG 13
47 Stephen Curry Warriors PG 12
46 Ricky Rubio TWolves PG 11
45 Al Jefferson Jazz PF 14
44 Anthony Davis Hornets PF 13
43 Serge Ibaka Thunder PF 12
42 Al Horford Hawks C 7
41 Ty Lawson Nuggets PG 10
40 Danny Granger Pacers SF 6
39 Tim Duncan Spurs PF 11
38 John Wall Wizards PG 9
37 Monta Ellis Bucks SG 8
36 Zach Randolph Grizzlies PF 10
35 Roy Hibbert Pacers C 6
34 Tyson Chandler Knicks C 5
33 Eric Gordon Hornets SG 7
32 Kevin Garnett Celtics PF 9
31 Manu Ginobili Spurs SG 6
30 Amar’e Stoudemire Knicks PF 8
29 Marc Gasol Grizzlies C 4
28 DeMarcus Cousins Kings C 3
27 Paul Pierce Celtics SF 5
26 Andre Iguodala Nuggets SG 5
25 Rudy Gay Grizzlies SF 4
24 Josh Smith Hawks PF 7
23 Derrick Rose Bulls PG 8
22 Joe Johnson Nets SG 4
21 Steve Nash Lakers PG 7
20 James Harden Thunder SG 3
19 Pau Gasol Lakers PF 6
18 Chris Bosh Heat PF 5
17 Kyrie Irving Cavs PG 6
16 LaMarcus Aldridge Blazers PF 4
15 Tony Parker Spurs PG 5
14 Dirk Nowitzki Mavs PF 3
13 Andrew Bynum Sixers C 2
12 Blake Griffin Clippers PF 2
11 Kevin Love TWolves PF 1
10 Carmelo Anthony Knicks SF 3
9 Russell Westbrook Thunder PG 4
8 Rajon Rondo Celtics PG 3
7 Deron Williams Nets PG 2

Notes
• Rankings are based solely on projected ’12-13 performance.
• Contributors to this list include: Jake Appleman, Maurice Bobb, Rodger Bohn, Brendan Bowers, Franklyn Calle, David Cassilo, Bryan Crawford, Adam Figman, Eldon Khorshidi, Eddie Maisonet III, Ryne Nelson, Ben Osborne, Allen Powell II, Sam Rubenstein, Jonathan Santiago, Abe Schwadron, Leo Sepkowitz, Dave Spahn, Ben Taylor, Tzvi Twersky, Peter Walsh, Tracy Weissenberg, Yaron Weitzman, DeMarco Williams and Dave Zirin.
• Want more of the SLAMonline Top 50? Check out the archive.

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  • http://www.facebook.com/Brill86 Andrew Woods

    i think 22-9.5-4 is a resonable expectation for him.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    good write up Adam. I think it’s spot on, but by the end of the year, i have him scratching the top 5 and reopening the Best PG in the L conversation.

  • obamathelama

    isn’t deron williams fat???

  • shockexchange

    D-Will balled out in Utah. Since, the book on him is that he is one of the premiere point guards in the L, but hasn’t had the talent around him. I think D-Will will soon find out that situations (like in Utah) where you are in synch with your coach and teammates, it may be best to stay put. He may make more money and get more exposure, but he may never replicate the professional success he had in Utah.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    alright so, fantasy league news, i had to create a second one, if anyone is interested – http://y.ahoo.it/HHQh8KoZ

  • http://www.facebook.com/Brill86 Andrew Woods

    durant, howard, lebron, wade, and chris paul. i think he only has a chance at scratching top 6 with kobe’s decline

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    if he only puts up 22-9.5-4 yeah, but if he puts up like 23-11-4 and Brooklyn finishes top 4 in the East….then i will put him over Wade.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Brill86 Andrew Woods

    i agree, but the elephant in the room might be the ppl behind him in the rankings improving too. i think its possible that next year blake, westbrook, drose and(i hate to say it) melo might push him back to a 8-11 slot. maybe im putting to much stock into what i have seen from him in this preseason.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    I agree with Deron being the 2nd best PG in basketball and possibly having the 2nd best season at that position.

  • http://twitter.com/Jzakoni Verified Account

    hes balding

  • http://twitter.com/Jzakoni Verified Account

    im interested

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    the only preseason guys you should pay attention too are rookies and guys trying to make teams. other than that, the marquee guys don’t even try in the preseason — and i can’t see anyway guys who aren’t even the best players on their team make a jump into the NBA’s top 6 out of everybody. Blake/Westbrook (Melo doesn’t have a shot, we know who he is as a player, he’s not a young guy let’s see how he improves player anymore, so you can just forget about him being in this conversation) would probably need Paul/Durant to get hurt at some point and open things up for them to dominate.

  • RedDragon10

    We’re judging men by their ability to ball, not how they look.

  • Omar

    Kobe Bean Bryant is next….Or should be.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    sign up. open registration.

  • Rainman

    I disagree with the part of the article that says noone has ever had him as the best PG in the L…just 2 years ago he was voted by GM’s as the best Point guard in the league…thats huge.

  • LeroyShonuff

    Superstars don’t leave teams and they do well. I always felt like he was a very good player in a great system, but I don’t see top 10. I think the nets struggle and end up a 7th seed. I don’t see the “it” in him. Dude was basically traded in the middle of the night. That doesn’t happen to top 10 players. Or top 15. I’ll take Kyrie Irving over him. But to each his own

  • RONDO IS BETTER!

    he smells funky too!

  • RONDO RULES

    sorry dad.

  • http://twitter.com/Jzakoni Verified Account

    LOL

  • http://twitter.com/Jzakoni Verified Account

    signed up. is the draft date movable? i unfortunately will have to be working the day of the draft.. tuesday 5pm?

  • http://twitter.com/Jzakoni Verified Account

    looks like I’m gonna have to be helped my auto draft :-/

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    i did the best time for the most people. i can’t do anything earlier than 7, as i only have 3 hours between work and getting my family fed and daughter in bed.

  • RedDragon10

    Learn next time, son.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    you can pre-rank your players, autodraft won’t treat you too bad if you do that. just look at the scoring system, it’s points, so you don’t have to be as consistent with how you’d draft as in rotisserie.

  • Anthony Dixon

    yup, out of all the times we’ve had the “best” pg convo, dwill can prove himself against lob city and cp3..

  • Caboose

    Kobe is going to be too high. Sigh…SLAM.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    told you bruh

  • Dagger

    I like Deron Williams and think he’s one of the league’s best players. That said:

    Are we really saying that recent performance doesn’t matter? Sure, Deron’s teammates were garbage last year. There’s no disputing that, and at the point that’s especially important. But: Iverson, Kobe and Lebron all had some of their best years statistically while playing with terrible teammates, and those teams, at the very least, made the playoffs. Now I understand that these guys are scorers and their role on their teams was different (although Deron is supposed to be a good scorer), but just last year Nash took a team of scrubs to within a game or two of the playoffs in a much deeper western conference. Nash is, of course, more than 10 spots below Williams in these rankings. Last year Deron’s WS was below .100 for the second consecutive season (he hit .177 twice in Utah, but that was years ago). His PER was, I believe, south of 20. Moving past advanced stats, Deron shot just over 40% from the field last season and 35% and his previous, injury-affected season.

    Let’s ignore the turnover/assist numbers/ratio, because that, even more obviously than scoring, is a function of teammates. Basically what I’m saying is that recent performance, even on poor teams, can’t be discounted entirely, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Williams is a few spots lower on this ranking next year. I also wouldn’t be surprised if the Nets are more hype than substance this year.

  • http://twitter.com/Jzakoni Verified Account

    sounds good to me. i’ll ask u questions if i run into a problem lol

  • LeroyShonuff

    I view him as a very good qb in the perfect system, that’s what he had in Utah. He can’t carry a bad team to the playoffs or even 35-40 wins a night ah la Bosh in Toronto.

  • Caboose

    I had hope…

  • Caboose

    23-11-4 should put him ahead of Wade, Kobe, Paul, and potentially Dwight depending on how good the Nets do.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    you can’t compare a PG with bad teammates to 3 of the best scorers in league history with bad teammates. that’s a logical fallacy.

  • shockexchange

    It takes so much (coaching, talent, chemistry) to be successful in pro sports. D-Will was in a great situation in Utah. He was the face of the franchise and he had the green light to do practically whatever he wanted. He traded it all in to play on a team with some nice pieces, but not much chemistry. It’ naive to think you can replicate what he had in Utah with any other team he goes to.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    and i really don’t understand where this he had a bad season nonsense came from. — his PER was north of 20. He was, statistically, still a top 5 PG. And was comparable if not better than guys who were perceived to be great last year,.
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=willide01&y1=2012&p2=westbru01&y2=2012&p3=bryanko01&y3=2012&p4=rondora01&y4=2012

    .
    Williams really struggled defensively last season, not offensively. And that was largely attributed to a lack of effort. Not a fall off in ability or skill.

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/savagemuzicgroup T-Ray

    Guarantee he’s in the top 5.

  • RONDO RULES

    Your not my dad – cuz i’m not chinese!

  • Kadavour

    you think Wade is going to have a better season? If Kobe manages to let the other guys do some dirty work and turn out some semblance of an efficient season, he has a strong case to be higher than Wade. If he chucks his way into top 3 scoring, it would be tough arguing against his value to his team vs (the oft injured) Wade. What do you think?

  • Kadavour

    The Nets will be in the post season, and Deron beasts in the playoffs. i think he’s averaging 20 and 10 his last couple playoff runs. how many Guards are doing that?

  • Caboose

    I definitely think so. I’d argue Wade had a better year than Kobe last year. Wade had better PER, Defensive Rating, Offensive Rating, Defensive Win Shares, Offensive Win Shares, Win Shares per 48 Minutes, FG%, Steals, Blocks, and Turnovers. The only argument for Kobe is scoring, which he was VERY inefficient at (shooting 3% BELOW the Lakers average).

  • justin05

    Dwayne Wade is next. It’s crazy to think that Kobe Bryant has been in the league this long and is still a top 5 player. Athleticism is one aspect of the game, these are Slam’s predictions for this upcoming season and I think Kobe will outperform D-Wade. He needs to be the Lakers #2 option this year if we want another Championship.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    actually he didn’t have a green light to do whatever he wanted. which is what caused the issues that resulted in the changing of the guard out in Salt Lake City.

  • Dagger

    When you shoot 40% you are not having a great offensive season. But you’ll notice that I never Williams wasn’t a top-5 PG. And I addressed your point about scorers by looking at Nash.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Bryant hasn’t outperformed Wade in 4 years.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    when you don’t look at the context of the team sure. But if you are putting up 20 and 9 on 40% shooting as the only player opposing teams even care about, you are not having a bad season. Deron Williams was asked to be the teams go-to-guy (a role he doesn’t like, at all) and was tasked with creating everything for everyone. i never said he had a “great” offensive season, certainly not for his standards, but he had a better offensive season then every PG in the NBA except Chris Paul & Russell Westbrook. People are just spoiled with Williams, if you expect a guy to do better than 20 and 9 on a team like that, you are spoiled as a fan.

  • shockexchange

    He had the green light to do whatever he wanted as a point guard. It was Jerry Sloan’s job to be the coach. Coach, PG and GM were not part of D-Will’s job description. The only “issue” was that the team’s star PG didn’t know his place. After a few years of losses and anonymity, the Shock Exchange bets he knows it now.

  • LeroyShonuff

    Exactly, him being reigned in was the best thing for him. Same with Dwight in Orlando. Sometimes players and people need limitations to be recognized as great. Deron is one of them. He got his freedom and hasn’t been as impactful. Him with that team Utah has now outside of favors is still better than this nets team. Top 10 players should give you a legit shot at winning a title, Deron doesn’t

  • justin05

    These ratings aren’t based off of the last 4 years so your comment is irrelevant.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    “the green light to do whatever he wanted as a PG” — you mean, once the game started he got to make his own decisions? what an astute observation.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    how could i forget? Kobe is going to improve in his 17th season. gtfoh.

  • shockexchange

    D-Will was out of his rabbit %$?!&*# mind out in Utah, challenging Jerry Sloan’s authority like that. What makes it all the more appalling is that the sychophants and hangers on co-sign that nonsense.

  • spit hot fiyah

    didn’t kenny and charles also call him the best pg when he was in the studio one time?

  • Showtime

    lol… even with wade hurt he still out preformed kobe last year… Kobe IS NEXT

  • LeroyShonuff

    Absolutely perfect!!! Great players make horrible teams avg. Good to very good makes horrible teams bad. Deron makes his team bad

  • LeroyShonuff

    Why? Is this list not a list of nba players? Should he not be compared…

  • 23

    Agreed

  • Junior Taylor

    Wade should be ranked ahead of Kobe but we all now that isn’t going to happen mainly because people are infatuated with scoring.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    name a top PG ever, who has made a team with a sh*tty supporting cast into a championship contender……i’ll wait.
    .
    it’s different with go-to guys, like LeBron, Kobe, & Iverson because you can just build up the defense and live off their scoring. (which is how they found the success they did with terrible supporting casts….as the “terrible” aspect ONLY applied to offense) — unlike Williams, who is a PG (who just had his second lowest assist season of his career….wonder why?) that relies on other’s to show how truly good he is. Plus, the team was horrible on both ends of the court, (actually worse on defense then offense, which means he had absolutely no chance at being successful considering he was also tasked to be his teams leading scorer). Williams, surrounded by competent teammates, will immediately look like a top 3 PG (if not the best PG in the league) —
    .
    i mean if you paid any attention to what he was doing in his half season in Utah this should be obvious shouldn’t it? He led the league in games of 30 points and 10 assists in 2010-11 — and he only had those performances while playing for the Jazz….then he broke his wrists (thumbs? i don’t remember) and got traded. Immediately once he was surrounded by crap teammates (on both ends of the court might i add) his efficiency dropped off a cliff………logically, with better teammates, his efficiency should resemble the player he was in Utah. Who turned teams into contenders (idk if you just don’t remember him bringing Utah to the WCF or what? — But he does make teams a contender, when that team is built around him with some competence).

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    I’m glad I’m not the only one who has recognized this.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    yea, don’t hesitate.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    You think Kobe will outperform Wade after 4 years of not doing so? No knee procedure in the world could make that happen. He’s already hurt and might not play in the season opener. Wade is healthier than he was last season.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    the year Paul was hurt, the majority of people considered him the top PG.

  • LakeShow

    Incorrect. Look at their logs. He out scored him in nearly every game. Wade did have a couple more rebounds and assists each game. Wade really only outplayed him in 1 game in the last 6.
    Or are you talking about overall season statistics?

  • LakeShow

    Umm, no actually he didn’t..

  • Dagger

    No one said he had a bad season, but when it comes to the top 10 I expect to be spoiled. Based on his performance the last couple years, I’m not sure Williams should be ranked above, say, Westbrook when we’re ranking based on next year’s production. The author admits as much. We’re expecting him to change with new surroundings and new teammates, justifying his ranking, but I’m not totally sold on that.

  • RedDragon10

    Neither am I, why would you even think I am?

    But you called me dad.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    nobody gives a damn in the world about head to head matchups.

  • RedDragon10

    As a lakers and kobe fan, I must admit that Wade has outplayed Kobe in 4 of the last 5 seasons. And we’re talking about overall season statistics.

  • LakeShow

    I agree his overall seasonal stats indicate that, but when you take into account that he is perennially injured I just can’t take Wade over Kobe.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    It says the league is full, da fukk?!?

  • LakeShow

    Uh I do. They are going against each other so that should be a good showing of who is better. Just like Bron vs KD in th finals last year. Showed that Bron was still slightly better than KD.

  • justin05

    I’m a Lakers fan so I’m biased but I’ve never looked up to Kobe Bryant as a good role model outside of basketball. He puts 100% of his heart into this game and if he takes the second role offensively and raises his fg % then I don’t see why he can’t be a top 5 player in the league. Wade is one of the best players in the league but he struggles w/ injuries and is on his decline just like Kobe. As far as Wade outperforming Kobe, the last 2 years yes but since winning the one championship w/ Shaq in co. Wade has not even come close to competing for a title before Lebron joined his team, therefore their performances are uncomparable during the years Wade didn’t even make the playoffs. Please..

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Bron was clearly better than Durant before they played. You only care about head to head match ups because that is the only arguing point for Kobe that you have. If Wade had better head to head match ups and worse stats, you’d say the opposite. We all know this about you.

  • justin05

    New role. I’ll keep preaching it until you guys understand basketball a little better. Dwight, Pau, and Nash all are going to work well together so Kobe can just strike like the Black Mamba he claims himself to be. I can see 20 ppg. on 48-50% shooting this season. Rebounds and assists are irrelevant when you have Dwight and Steve on your team.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    yes he did. clearly. Points Per Game are not an indicator of who a better player is. sorry charlie.

  • RedDragon10

    I mean the whole idea of Wade being constantly injured has been kind of overblown. Since his return from that devastating injury in 07-08, Wade has only missed several games last year. He’s played 75+ games every year since 09.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    the last couple of years? you mean last year? Because, Westbrook last season, was not as good as Williams 2 years ago, despite 12 of thos games being played with two broken wrists in New Jersey. http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=willide01&y1=2011&p2=westbru01&y2=2012
    .
    there is no logical reason to think Williams won’t be similar to how he was in Utah with this better supporting cast. none.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    yeah they fill up fast. sorry bro.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Your points are terrible…….
    .
    Kobe missed the playoffs after Shaq left too butter cup. And that was Kobe’s prime. So uh, your point is, pointless.
    .
    Wade has outperformed Kobe for the last 4 years, despite worse teammates, & a worse coach. Especially if you give even a little bit of a damn about defense.

  • Junior Taylor

    Lake, so I guess that Dirk was significantly better than LeBron in 2011 based off their final performances?

  • GMoose

    If Kevin Love is #1 at his position (rightfully so) he should break the top ten. Better than Melo last year. Probably a solid #7 i say.

  • justin05

    Saying Kobe didn’t make the playoffs after Shaq left is a terrible point. We are not comparing Kobe and Wade during those years. Did Wade ever score 81 points in a game after Shaq left? The Lakers would have been even worse with Wade on that team instead of Kobe. More opportunity for you to outperform when your second option is Beasley or Haslem lol

  • Salty

    Man, as a Utah fan, I wish he would have really recognized what he had. That dude was a pleasure to watch every night. Who knows the real story behind why he and Sloan had troubles later on, but it was a damn shame to see that coupling come to an end.

  • LakeShow

    Neither are assists or rebounds or fg% or Win shares or defensive win shares or PER. They just show a unique perspective on a player through numbers not actually how good they are. Sorry Timmy.

  • Salty

    Damn right.

  • LakeShow

    I would say in the finals, Dirk absolutely was yes.

  • LakeShow

    We all know you bank your entire life upon numbers and statistics, but we except you for who you are: A stats nerd :)

  • Salty

    nbk: when you’re being coached by a legend, he tells you what to do and you listen…if you know what’s best for you. D Will was questioning Sloan’s authority to reporters constantly. Not acceptable.

  • LakeShow

    Wade has not been great defensively. I don’t know where that comes from. Is Serge Ibaka great defensively? Naw not really. They are good at certain things. Wade can go down as the greatest shot blocker under 6’5″, but that doesn’t make him a great defender. He gambles way to much and isn’t very good at 1 on 1 defense. Kobe is a better 1 on 1 defender and that is what is most important defensively especially when you have two 7 footers doing the shot blocking.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Show me ONE time he questioned Jerry Sloan to the media. Their issues we behind close doors. And it all happened in a matter of a month

  • Salty

    How much have you actually watched Williams? You can bet that man will make sure that team makes noise this year, especially given his improved supporting cast.

  • LeroyShonuff

    Jason Kidd with New Jersey… That team wouldn’t have made the playoffs without him. A great player is a great player period. By that logical, magic isn’t a top 3 player cause he wasn’t a go to scorer? Even tho he made his team better? Is that not the point of a pg is too make his teammates better? Deron has failed in that the last 2yrs

  • Salty

    I read the Salt Lake Tribune every morning. And I’ve followed the Jazz my whole life. I’m not going to do your homework for you. It wasn’t like he said: Sloan is a bum who doesn’t know what he’s doing. But, especially for the last couple of years, he’d regularly throw in these comments to reporters in which he talked about how the offense was maybe dated and needed revamping, or how he wished the team were allowed to do this or that…he mean if he was willing to question the leadership of the team in public, I guarantee that behind closed doors things were a nightmare for Sloan those last couple of years.

  • Dagger

    It’d be nice if that was true, but it’s not. For one, Deron’s teammates are different – inferior, I’d argue – and his coach, while a former PG, is hardly Jerry Sloan and is infamously hard on point guards. Moreover, sometimes players just decline, irrespective of when their prime years should be. There are countless examples of this, of course, but often it takes people by surprise, and after the fact the causes can be put down to lingering injuries or change of scenery or psychology. I’m not saying Deron is necessarily in decline, but I am saying that we need to consider his last season when we rank him today.

    As for Westbrook/Williams: I think Westbrook is still figuring out his game. I suspect he’ll become a more efficient scorer and a better facilitator next year. If so, it wouldn’t be a stretch to see him ranked higher than Williams next year.

  • Caboose

    Facts:
    1. Wade has had a higher PER than Kobe the past 4 years.
    2. Wade has had higher steals, higher blocks, better defensive rating, and more defensive win shares the past 4 years.
    3. Wade has had a higher FG% the past 4 years.
    4. Kobe has played in 94% of all games the past 4 years. Wade has played in 90%.
    5. Wade has had a higher offensive rating and more offensive win shares the past 4 years.
    6. Kobe has NEVER had as many win shares/48 minutes as Wade did last year.
    7. Kobe shot more often in games that the Lakers lost last year.
    Now Lake, I would like you to make a fact-based, intelligent argument for why Kobe has been better. It cannot be based on mere subjectives, because if your case is as strong as you say, then surely there are facts out there to prove your point. I would be happy to reevaluate my way of thinking, but I have a plethora of information that proves me right. Please, prove me wrong.

  • Salty

    At the end of the day, it’s all history and doesn’t matter any more. He remains one of my favorite players and I hope he has success in BK. He’s a stellar basketball player and, as you can tell from some of the comments on this thread, is still under appreciated as a player by many. And as I said earlier, none of us are sure what exactly transpired in those last days. I’m just telling you the impression he gave to many of us in Utah well before he left. We all saw his departure as inevitable.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    you can’t try and say, “As far as Wade outperforming Kobe, the last 2 years yes but since winning the one championship w/ Shaq in co. Wade has not even come close to competing for a title before Lebron joined his team, therefore their performances are uncomparable during the years Wade didn’t even make the playoffs.” – when,
    . – A) Kobe also missed the playoffs when surrounded by bad talent (and i know for certain, if i were to say Wade was better then, you would have – (as well as the rest of the world) – said, just because Wade is on a team competing for the title doesn’t mean he’s better than Kobe.
    – B) Your point, if you want to remain with it, renders Kobe, last season, “uncomparable” to Wade because, he was not competing for a title.
    .
    i don’t know how to make this more clear?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    ahh, but the thing is, you can use a myriad of stats (not just one or two – per game stats, that are a convoluted mess that don’t actually prove anything more than what a guy does in sheer volume over a random (from player to player) amount of minutes. No scouting service / team looks at Per Game Stats by themselves and tries to justify why (Player A) is better than (Player B)). — And since you, along with other Kobeites can’t see by watching (due to nostalgia or whatever) that Kobe is no longer the supreme 2 in the L, people like me, have to use stats that make a more clear picture of why one player is better than the other. And it’s not like it’s just one advanced stat, it’s all of them.
    .
    - http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=wadedw01&y1=2009&p2=bryanko01&y2=2009
    - http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=wadedw01&y1=2010&p2=bryanko01&y2=2010
    - http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=wadedw01&y1=2011&p2=bryanko01&y2=2011
    - http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=wadedw01&y1=2012&p2=bryanko01&y2=2012
    .
    Sorry

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    i asked you too show me because you brought them up. It’s not my job to prove what you say to be true.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    did i say Wade has been great? I said he’s been clearly better than Kobe. Which he has. — and no, Kobe is not a better one on one defender. That’s rubbish. He WAS a better one on one defender, but he isn’t anymore. And as a help defender, it’s not even kinda close.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    ok, first of all, the East was a joke in those years. Let’s make sure we have this established.
    .
    – The Nets in 2000-01 were the BEST defense in the NBA. They won with defense, and lack of competition. — Just look at the roster, it’s not like Kidd had those guys playing that great, they were meh offensively. And they definitely would have made the playoffs in that Eastern Conference with any other competent PG. But they wouldn’t have made the finals with anyone else (which I could say the same thing about Utah getting to the WCF in 2007….).
    – The Nets in 2001-02 were also the BEST defense in the NBA. — They won much the same way, except this team had a quickly maturing Richard Jefferson with the underrated Kenyon Martin. They too would have made the playoffs with any other competent starting PG, but would not have sniffed the finals with anyone other than Kidd.
    .
    But Kidd is a better player than Williams anyway, so if you want to have that point, take it. I was wrong. But Williams isn’t Jason Kidd, so I don’t expect him to make any team that good. He’s still a top 7 player in the NBA today, and likely (imo) top 5 by the end of the season.

  • LakeShow

    I give you help defense, but that help defense is what takes away from his 1 on 1 D. I assure you Kobe is still the better 1 on 1 defender against guys with similar athleticism. Wade is better at guarding a Westbrook like player, but Kobe is better at guarding a Joe Johnson or someone similar. Depends on the match up, but Kobe is still slightly ahead of Wade 1 on 1 man.

  • LakeShow

    Number 6 is exactly why these numbers mean absolutely nothing.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Dagger, let’s figure out if you even know what offense they ran in Utah? You keep bringing up Jerry Sloan, but do you actually know anything about what that team did in terms of offensively? — And his coach, is infamously hard on Devin Harris. Not Point Guards. — Deron Williams didn’t decline in terms of production last season http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willide01.html other than in APG and Shooting %………the two things affected most by teammates. Probably stop acting like last season was so horrible, it wasn’t. At all.

  • LakeShow

    Where did I say or act like the case is strong? Neither is widely favored over the other. Kobe and Wade are near equals on the court these days. I prefer Kobe’s skill set and durability.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    - http://www.82games.com/1112/11MIA4.HTM

    - http://www.82games.com/1112/11LAL6.HTM

    Considering opponent PER and Points per 48 minutes and everything else one on one, and that little point you tried to make about “Kobe is a better 1 on 1 defender and that is what is most important defensively especially when you have two 7 footers doing the shot blocking.” well considering everything said here…..Wade is still, statistically a better one on one defender….plus what my eyes are telling me…..uhm?

  • Rainman

    right, that too. he’s definitely been in peoples sights for a long time now

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    ^ all of this is true for the last 4 years. Wade has BEEN better than Kobe.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    so what your saying is, in 2005-06 Gilbert Arenas was better than Kobe Bryant? Gotcha. http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=arenagi01&p2=bryanko01

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    i’m expecting Chris Paul to be pretty ridiculous this season. And the Dwight thing, LAL’s defense is going to be staggering.

  • Salty

    It’s not any of our jobs to do anything on here.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    -Here, you can tell it to yourself if you want to try and be a douche about that aspect of what i said.

    -”I’m not going to do your homework for you” – Salty
    .
    That better?

  • LakeShow

    lol. yes, nbk that is exactly what I am trying to say. The year Kobe scored over 35 a game is the year Arenas was better than Kobe..

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    well according to you head to head match ups are more important. And Arenas put up 60 and 34 in two Wins over Bryant. Head 2 Head Match Ups and All That. Gilbert was better in your own little world. Sorry, but when something is obvious, it’s obvious. You will take whatever argument you think suits your needs and you run with. No matter how obviously moronic it is.

  • Salt

    I’m only messing with you man. Rein yourself in.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    it is the internet, it’s not like i can sense a tone to what you are saying lol – if you say one thing to me in a non-joking matter, and i say essentially the same thing back and you react like that, it’s hard to tell what you meant. but my bad.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    i canned my hope in 2009

  • Salty

    I know how it is. God damn politics and sports get the blood flowing. But we can both agree: D Will is a beast of a player.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    no doubt.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    You’re the one who doesn’t understand basketball. Wade at 100% with LeBron being down in the post and Ray Allen being on either wing ready to catch and shoot? He will have more space to operate. Rebounds and assists are irrelevant? Who in the world believes that besides you? You claim to understand basketball and make statements like that? Really?

  • Caboose

    You do need to explain. This is how intellectual debate works:
    I gave you the benefit of the doubt and let “Kobe>Wade” be the null assumption. I made the positive claim (Wade>Kobe), and thus the onus of proof was on me. I gave my proof via simple and advanced stastics. This is a widely accepted method of presenting proof. If you disagree, you must either provide contradictory proof or demonstrate my proof to be incomplete or inaccurate. Either way, since I have given my claim, you actually bear the onus of proof now. My effective proof means that “Wade>Kobe” is now the null hypothesis and if you are to make the positive claim (Kobe>Wade), you must prove it. -Morgan Freeman voice- Good luck.

  • http://www.facebook.com/qcollingwood Interdico Scriptor

    Um. DWill is a good write up, but that means you project KB to be a top 5…. AS IF. WHAT IS BRYANT GOING TO DO IN 2013 THAT GET’S HIM A TOP 5 SPOT…. JACKING TERRIBLE SHOTS – THAT’S WHAT!

  • LakeShow

    Your favorite PG Smush was guarding him the whole first half.

    .

    Kobe didn’t even guard him till the 2nd half. Maurice Evans, Kobe and Smush all tried to stop Gil, but he was unstoppable that night.
    .
    Kobe’s box score: 45 Pts, 8 Reb, 10 Ast. 62% FG’s… 10% better than Gil.

    Gil shot 27 FT’s. DID YOU CATCH THAT? 27 FREE THROWS. Kobe shot 10 FT’s.

    .

    You act like Kobe had his ass handed to him in that game. Yes Gil scored 15 more points, but he didn’t even really have a better game than Kobe.

    .

    Next game you speak of… No Gil didn’t have 34 he had 37.

    Kobe had 39…

    Lakers win…

    Gil’s line, 37 PTS, 4 AST, 5 REB, 1 STL -10

    Bryant’s, 39 PTS, 6 AST, 6 REB, 2 STL +14

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    You are right in the season, but I was referring to the two games in the year from December 05 to December 06. And I don’t genuinely believe Gilbert was better. But you given your dumb argument earlier, Gilbert outplaying Kobe in some one on one matchups (not matter how many factors you completely leave out) gives a more clear picture of whose the better overall player. It’s not my logic you are arguing against, it’s your own.
    .

  • brad09′

    way too high, no way he is a better all around player than rondo, no way. I dont think id take him over westbrook either. 7th best player in the league should get a team to the playoffs

  • LakeShow

    I’m not arguing against it. Kobe outplayed Gilbert or at least played up to him. Which is roughly where Wade has been with Kobe.
    I truly don’t care what a person thinks in the Wade vs Bryant debate. For all the “advance stats” and stuff it still doesn’t show who the better player is. If you want to trust those numbers, go for it. I don’t.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Gilbert put up 60 in a win. Sorry that’s not even. You can’t even admit when Kobe gets outplayed, I’m done. Ridiculous. .

  • aicomeback

    i may not always agree with your points usually i do but i respect that even if i believe your wrong you have a logical consistency in your arguments lol just felt like saying that

  • justin05

    Kobe averages 4-6 rebounds and assists either way. Guys like Nash and Gasol will carry the load on the assist end (Howard should help also). Pau, Dwight, and the other big men will get plenty of rebounds as well. That was an ignorant statement about not knowing b-ball but a new role gives Kobe a chance to thrive. I agree with what you said about Wade. He is still the #2 option for the Heat but his game opens up with Allen on the team. Idk if Wade can play point or how they will mesh on the court though.. It will be an interesting year. Slam is even having a hard time deciding who is better between Wade and Kobe lol

  • justin05

    Slam will end this debate. Idk how to make myself any more clear that Wade was not better than Kobe when the Lakers beat the Magic and Celtics for Bryant’s 4th and 5th ring. Like I said above, Slam will end this, and they sure are having a tough time deciding lol

  • justin05

    I feel the same way bro, stats are stats. There are so many more aspects to the game. Basketball IQ should be considered when deciding who is “better” player. Wade doesn’t even come close to Kobe in that category, that’s why D-Wade’s career will not last as long as Kobe’s has. He has put more strain on his body from doing the acrobatic type moves. D Rose and Blake Griffin are in the same boat.. Guys like Nash, Garnett, and Bryant will know this game better than we ever can imagine.

  • Caboose

    You’ve still yet to answer me. Honestly Lake, you are BEYOND annoying with anything Kobe because you simply don’t listen to reason. Is it arrogance? Is it ignorance? Is it stupidity? Is it closed-mindedness? Is it indoctrination disguised as fandom? I don’t know. But listen, I gave you very simple instructions. I laid out my argument. The onus of proof was one me. Now it’s on you. I want you, in one comment, make a concise, clear, fact-based, point-by point argument that proves Kobe is better. I will have the opportunity to critique the points you make, but I need you to actually put forth why you think the way you do. Otherwise, you have the ability to change your reasoning to fit your needs. We can’t have that. I’m coming for you this time, because I’m sick of you constantly having a different rationalization or justification for Kobe. Prove to me you’re more than just an overly zealous fanboy. Or don’t. Either way.

  • Caboose

    Do you even want me to critique that argument? Oh, yes, I think I will. What is basketball IQ? Is it how efficiently a player scores the ball? How well he creates wins? How effectively he runs a team’s offense? How well he helps develop young talent? Because there are FACTS for all of this. And Kobe’s don’t look too great.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Slam will put Kobe 5 or 4 and it won’t change anything

    .

  • LeroyShonuff

    So what’s Deron’s excuse? He did have a bad team, but most nights they weren’t even competitive. Can you say the same about Paul with the hornets or even Irving with the cavs? No you can not. If a guy is top top, especially as a pg where you can no longer handcheck, his team should be competitive. The nets haven’t been and the blame goes on him. Is Deron great, no. Even nash in a harder conference and less overall talent around him had the suns competitive. Heck, even Jennings bucks with similar talent levels had the bucks competitive, Deron has no excuse what so ever

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    You are pointless to discus this with. You obviously don’t know what your talking about saying those teams were similar to the Nets. I’m done with that ignorance and you genuinely think your making a point. Just watch basketball this season and holler at me after that. Maybe you’ll pay better attention to what’s going on and whose good and who isn’t.

  • Caboose

    Not quite. Lakers fans are infatuated with scoring. Celtics fans are infatuated with assists, Bulls fans are infatuated with athleticism, Thunder fans are infatuated with clutchness, and Knicks fans are infatuated with…well, idk.

  • Slick Ric

    The east was terrible when Iverson and lebron led a one-man show to the finals as well…..

  • Slick Ric

    For a player of his caliber, there’s no excuse to shoot 40%.

  • Drig

    I’m calling BS on this one. If anything, DWill was complaining about the O being too rigid for him. He wanted the O to be more fluid and loose. Atleast that was the vibe I got.

  • Drig

    Knicks fans are infatuated by MSG……..That was the best thing I could come up with……

  • Drig

    @disqus_rOeXXBD2qs:disqus ……..Kobe takes more shots from the perimeter than Wade ever did because we got two guys who cram up the paint and no shot creation and scoring outside of Kobe for the last 2 odd years while Heat’s gameplan caters to the biggest strengths of its superstars. Metta slumped last season. Fish/Blake were awful. I followed the Lakers as many times as I could and I can confidently say that Kobe’s AST numbers would’ve been much much better if LAL was even a decent top 15 team from the perimeter. I think PER, Offensive Rating, OWS and WSper48 all also take into account the FG%. And that is what I don’t like about stats. They don’t give you the entire offensive mapping fo the players.

    Defensively, Wade has been the more consistent and better player no doubt though. I would be a fool to argue that lol.

    This season, I think Kobe’s gonna be more efficient because Nash can help space the floor and create good looks for him, has looked to pass more and won’t be as gassed out at the end of games as he was last season. He no longer has the stamina to keep up a hot streak for more than a quarter or a half ( this was evident last season :( ). Honestly, I wouldn’t mind seeing Kobe being 6th. But with Miami wisely choosing to monitor Wade’s minutes and the potential upside of the role Kobe’s gonna play this season, it isn’t farfetched to think that he can have the better season than Wade.

  • Drig

    -_-. So that’s your reasoning? DWill isn’t top 10 because he doesn’t have the “it” in him and was traded in the middle of the night??? His game has no flaws. And he’s the best at creating space ( CP3 is the best at using that space ) with his sick crossover. He’s a good enough scorer and his vision is only second to Nash and CP3. His passing skills are on par with them.

  • Drig

    Nice to see DWill isn’t being underrated by you guys. Good job SLAM. Expecting a 21-9.4-4 season from him.

  • LakersTheBlog.com

    really like D-Will’s game, but is he really 7th best player in league? Couldn’t even sniff the playoffs in the lowly east (and yes I understand the Nets sucked)

  • Brandon

    Anyone notice last three in top 50 are PGs?

  • Drig

    Did you not read about the Nets having one of the worst defensive teams part?? And Monty had the Hornets playing pretty good D over the entire season in Paul’s final year. Not to mention he had West and Okafor as his 2nd and 3rd options compared to Marshon Brooks and Humpries…….. If Brook had played, maybe what you said might be applicable but this is comparing apples to oranges.

  • north

    but the stuff in Chinese food, not Madison Square.

  • Max

    Lol, this would be something a teacher says to an annoying student.

  • Drig

    @disqus_rOeXXBD2qs:disqus ………..Respect. Even if I don’t agree with you about Lakers, you do always provide the most damning counter proofs…..You and caboose :

  • north

    If Deron was a player with high basketball IQ he would have supported Sloan’s system and Utah would be/been the best team in the West. He’s a gunner, albeit a good one, but his attitude (yes not trying to play defense at all last year and jacking up shots like Jennings on the Bucks) lowers him down a few spots. He’s a good player who needs to be the “guy” on a team to be happy. JJ wanting the ball at the end of the clock is going to burn into Williams just wait and see.

  • Max

    The Kobe-Dwade boms exploded one day to early.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    appreciate it man.

  • http://twitter.com/AjpDos Allen Powell

    DRose gets Utah East and all we here is how he has to carry an untalented team. Deron gets the same players or worse and he should be grateful. Come on now.

  • justin05

    My original point was that Wade would be next. These rankings are based on predictions for the upcoming season so I said that Kobe would outperform Wade, that is how this top 50 works. At this point it is too difficult to decide who is really “better”. The writers for Slam know more about basketball than you pal. We can agree to disagree about the Wade vs. Kobe discussion because we obviously see the game of basketball differently. Slam’s decision won’t change your opinion but if Wade is ahead of Kobe then I’ll admit I’ve been wrong this whole time. Whoever runs Slam doesn’t just pick these writers off the street. This is obviously a very difficult decision for them so they are making sure they do their best to get it right. Show some respect.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Just because people write for a magazine doesn’t mean they are experts in the sport. And it is a publication that has to grab readers. idk if you realize this or not (i assume you do) but Kobe Bryant draws more attention than Dwyane Wade. The fact remains, Kobe hasn’t outperformed Wade in years, and is only getting older. No matter how SLAM puts them in the rankings, logically, there is no reason to expect Kobe to improve at this point. And to be better than Wade, he will have to. Or Wade will have to get hurt. — And i believe i show SLAM as much respect as any person possibly could. It’s not disrespectful to disagree, it would be disrespectful to call them stupid or tell them they shouldn’t be respected. But i’m not doing that, and i don’t feel that way. I understand the nature of the business….and you should understand the nature of the comment section.

  • shockexchange

    No resistance from me. How the Shock Exchange remembers it, DWill wanted more say so about the O and other matters. It got to the point where Sloan felt he may have needed to step aside in order to appease DWill. I find it hard to believe that over the course of about six weeks the two could not co-exist simply because DWill did not like the O.
    Which begs the question: How’d he like the O with the Nets the past few years?

  • shockexchange

    Clearly DWill needed more talent in Utah to help make that team a title contender. But he had some special years with the Jazz and the Shock Exchange questions if he will ever reach that level of professional success again. Like the Shock Exchange always says, “Hindsight is 20/20.”

  • justin05

    I agree with you, basketball IQ is very complex. How many of you guys can actually ball though? Seriously, I’m not trying to be arrogant or rude but when you know how to play the game you see it a little differently. I don’t base my opinion from a fan’s point of view. You are intelligent Caboose, I respect you for that because there is more to life than basketball. We are about the same age and I can tell, based on how you write, that you are better academically than myself. However, you focus more on statistics and just because you are good with words and numbers doesn’t mean your views are any more correct than someone else’s. If anything, based on your comments, I can see that you really don’t know the game from a players view. It’s all about researching stats with guys like yourself and byanymeans. It is plainly obvious that you do not like the Lakers or Kobe (especially after Howard was traded to LA) so like I said to nbk, we will just have to agree to disagree. Our views are on opposite sides of the spectrum. My original point was that Wade will be next because Kobe will outperform him. Slam will decide who is right, they are having a helluva time figuring it out. You may not want to believe it, but they know more about basketball then both of us. I actually think it may be Kobe at no. 6 because of how long it is taking Slam. Who knows, maybe our debate has influenced them, I won’t admit I’m wrong until I see it though.

  • justin05

    I would say Dirk was the better player in the playoffs and what really matters in the NBA? The playoffs lol. At the end of the day, all these players really want is the Championship ring (the fame that goes with it doesn’t hurt either lol) The best players and best team will be competing for a ring at the end of the year.

  • justin05

    It’s not all about statistics and highlight reels homie

  • LakeShow

    Explaining basketball IQ is like explaining the 6th sense.
    .
    .
    .
    LOL at “Kobe’s facts don’t look that great.”
    Did AI’s stats not look that great? Give the guy a fukcing break he had one below average shooting season.

  • LakeShow

    lol, i’m getting schooled.

  • http://twitter.com/AjpDos Allen Powell

    I see him in the ECF this year or next year. After that it’s iffy, but in one of the next two years, barring injuries, they make the ECF.
    Utah traded Deron because they didn’t think they could re-sign him without making huge salary investments that they didn’t want to make. Look at their roster and spending history. If they thought Deron would have played the good soldier while surrounded by poor talent and cheap talent, they would have never traded him. They knew he was going to be unhappy and cause a stink, rightfully so.

  • LakeShow

    Don’t you realize that this is the difference…
    - You see numbers and stats.
    - I see performance and intangibles.
    What would be the point in explaining to you why I think something? That’s how I think, not how you should think. I’m not trying to convince anyone. Kobe has been there and done it more times than Wade and that’s why I think he will get things done when it matters most. Point blank period.
    So just consider me a jealous, or zealous, or whatever, stan boy, fan boy, I don’t really care at all… Kobe will get sh*t done over Wade. If he takes more stupid shots over a season that’s fine with me. If that’s not fine with you then that’s fine with me.
    I’m sure this answer was very satisfying for you :)

  • LakeShow

    You gave no “proof”.
    You gave numbers.
    Some of which favor Bryant or are equal to Bryant.
    Thus; thine hypothesis of said “onus” is not on one LakeShow, it is doth mulled via my convoluted hyper-symbiosis, of the pragmatic discipline you your self laid before me.
    Whaaa chaaaaaa! – Bruce Lee voice

  • http://twitter.com/AjpDos Allen Powell

    The talent Nash had, plus the system they ran was lightyears ahead of what Deron had. For example, which player on New Jersey’s roster for most of the year was better than Grant Hill? Marcin Gortat? Hell, even Jared Dudley would have been a starter for the Nets and getting big minutes. The comparison doesn’t work.

  • http://twitter.com/AjpDos Allen Powell

    NBK using the 30 and 10 statistic I used to throw around back in the day. I challenge all the Williams doubters to check out his game logs from his last season in Utah. It’s crazy what he was doing on that squad before he injured his wrists. His shooting percentage and attitude where horrible in Jersey, but cats are sleeping.

  • http://twitter.com/AjpDos Allen Powell

    Jason Kidd played with three top ten draft choices, including the number one overall pick in a young Kenyon Martin. He also had Kerry Kittles, Keith Van Horn and Richard Jefferson. Not to mention solid reserves like Lucious Harris.
    The team played uptempo–always a plus when you have a great point guard and young players–and played good defense. It was not a collection of bums. check the stats again folks

  • http://twitter.com/AjpDos Allen Powell

    nash has never played with less talent than Deron Williams in his entire career. That is a complete lie. Go roster by roster, and every year Nash has had more talent. You just pulled that factoid out of your anus.

  • shockexchange

    Let’s keep it all the way one hunnert. If the Nets make the ECF, it won’t be a testament to DWill or the Nets, but a testament to how weak the Eastern Conference is. That Jazz team was one elite player and key role player away from being able to contend for a title. With Sloan, team chemistry, selfless play and DWill balling out, it’s hard to recreate that. However, if Utah did not want to spend the money to improve that team then my argument is a moot point.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Cats seem to be in a coma

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    well i appreciate that.

  • Caboose

    And what I’m saying is, your way of thinking is brilliant for you because there is NOTHING substantial for you to back up your claim. You can say whatever the hell you want and back it up under the cover of “performance.” Watch this: “Greg Monroe is the best big man at passing out of the post. I know because I’ve seen him and he has a natural feel for it, great vision, and did it all throughout college.” There is NOTHING that can be said to support that other than your own subjectives. What you believe is based on nothing but what you can see and judge for yourself instead of what objective evaluation can tell you. In the business, we call that faulty logic. I call it an invalid argument.

  • http://twitter.com/AjpDos Allen Powell

    Caboose my man. Nice work buddy, nice work indeed.

  • http://twitter.com/AjpDos Allen Powell

    This isn’t the only subject where homie takes that tact. Just saying.

  • Caboose

    Good to see you around here Allen. Don’t read the Wade article…nothing but chaos in there.

  • gg

    shoulda just said hello brooklyn

  • Dagger

    I’m not sure how the first part of your response is relevant; I was just saying that his coach and system are different now, which can impact performance. Any change requires adjustment, which can influence a player’s confidence. Regardless, obviously Sloan is as synonymous with the pick and roll as Tex Winter is with the triangle offense. Avery Johnson’s offensive schemes may help Deron excel this season (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1321259-why-avery-johnson-is-the-perfect-coach-for-the-brooklyn-nets-in-2012), but we’ll have to see. And look, Deron also had more turnovers than he’s ever had, fewer rebounds than he’s had since ’08-’09, and his winshares collapsed. Nobody’s saying his season was horrible, but it wasn’t up to the standards of a top-7 player, period.

    Either way I’m sure Deron will be great this year, but I’m not sure he’ll have a more productive season than, say, Westbrook, in part because I’m not totally sold on his new teammates and last season gave me some doubts. These are hardly controversial points – it’s not like I’m saying he’s garbage – but apparently you feel the need to be patronizing. If you want a respectful debate with someone, even through the anonymity of the internet, you may want to gain a little humility and a little civility.

  • cncaliguy

    Total Crap considering he shot 40% ball and team didn’t make playoffs. He’s not a true franchise or superstar player. CP3 has been proven to be a better leader and veteran. DRose proved he’s vital to his team success. I even think Rondo is more important to Celtics than Deron because of Rondo’s rebounding and defense.

    I would rate LBJ ,Wade, Durant, Love, Kobe, Aldridge, and Howard above Deron and some people have Melo up there but I hate Melo. Deron is outside the top 10 for sure.

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