Top 50: Dwight Howard, no. 6

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• ZOGS Posted: Oct.23 at 12:19 pm
  Not really sure if he should be this low… considering how much of a factor he is on his team (and not to mention that he is the only good center in the ENTIRE league. IMO 1.Durant
  2.Kobe
  3.Lebron
  4.Dwight
  5.Rose

• ZOGS Posted: Oct.23 at 12:20 pm
  *switch durant and lebron

• Royal Posted: Oct.23 at 12:20 pm
  WOW….In my opinion Dwight is a top three player (LeBron,Dwyane,Dwight)….But it is somewhat disrespectful to not put this man in at least the top five

• boston32 Posted: Oct.23 at 12:26 pm
  I’m expecting over 300 mad comments on this selection. This selection has to be attributed to his team lacking any chance to compete for a title this year, therefore diminishing his impact in comparison to the five selected above him.

• spit hot fiyah Posted: Oct.23 at 12:26 pm
  ^agree this was kind of shocking, by far the most dominant defensive player in the league the last few years, and his offense is getting better, at least last year he made strides.

• spit hot fiyah Posted: Oct.23 at 12:30 pm
  agreed with royal, good point boston 32

• boston32 Posted: Oct.23 at 12:31 pm
  5. Kobe 4. Rose 3. Wade 2.Durant 1. Lebron, just a wild guess based on previous selections

• Shem Posted: Oct.23 at 12:33 pm
  That was a terrible write up, I was disappointed as I was very curious as to what SLAM would say about Dwight losing to ATL in the 1st round last year. There is no way Derrick Rose is better the Dwight. Not a chance, I don’t even think he’s better than Chris Paul and Dirk is questionable. He’s my favourite player to use in 2K but his ranking is so overrated.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 12:34 pm
  I thought the KLove ranking was bad but this takes the cake. No way in hell are KD/Rose/Kobe better players than DHow, no way. I don’t care what the criteria is (projected performance or best player), Dwight is the better player. I never thought I would see the day ESPN knew more about basketball than SLAM.

• Duddy Posted: Oct.23 at 12:35 pm
  Lol lol lol. This list is a joke. The guy is arguably a top 2 player in the league. A defensive beast and the only relevant player at his position. I’m starting to think that u guys might put Kobe as a top 2 player. Slam Online’s a joke

• BE.water Posted: Oct.23 at 12:40 pm
  if anybody could explain to me how dwight Howard is a better BASKETBALL PLAYER than Kobe, Durant, Wade, Lebron and Drose ….PLEASE do it. Because I dont see it. just because dwight is the ONLY “dominant” center in the league doesnt make him better than those 5. He is where he belongs to me.

• Dagger Posted: Oct.23 at 12:41 pm
  First of all: terrible, nonsensical writeup. When you put Howard at 6 you better write more in defence of the ranking than some pseudo-philosophical gibberish. Second: I could almost rationalize putting Dirk at #7 when the list is based on projected production in the upcoming season (that’s probably a silly criteria for ranking people, but it is what it is). But: ranking Howard #6? The most defensively dominant big the game has seen since KG? A young centre whose offensive game is growing by leaps and bounds? A monster of production whose PER is second only to Lebron’s? The one guy who single-handedly makes his team relevant? And we’re putting him below Kobe: on what basis? Does anyone seriously think Kobe will out-produce Howard next year? If we’re ranking on the pure quality of the player: does anyone actually believe Rose (my favourite player in the game) is better than Howard right now? The credibility of this list, already shaky when Stoudemire and Westbrook made it so high, collapsed with the last two rankings.

• boston32 Posted: Oct.23 at 12:41 pm
  Tell em why yall mad son. Who really cares that much who’s ranked where I just want to see the season start…

• Dagger Posted: Oct.23 at 12:42 pm
  BE.water: because basketball is about more than a sick crossover.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 12:43 pm
  C’mon, SLAM.
  Howard’s the most dominant force in the NBA today, he should be NO LOWER than fourth, and could be as high as second.
  I mean, 22.9 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 2.4 bpg and 1.4 spg on 59% shooting?
  And this dude would most likely be averaging between 25 to 32 per on any other team that doesn’t look to shoot the 3 as it’s primary offensive option.

• bashmo Posted: Oct.23 at 12:45 pm
  This is ridiculous. Rose ahead of Dwight Howard and CP3? Even based on projected season performance Dwight next year is likely to go off and average 25 and 14. This is ridiculous. You have Derrick Rose ahead of Dwight Howard.

• Showtime Posted: Oct.23 at 12:46 pm
  I am postive now and as with cp3#8 that slam does this 4 just sh!t & giggles.. Come on Son…D12 should at least be top 3.D12>kobe(at this stage), durant, rose

• novamike Posted: Oct.23 at 12:46 pm
  If Howard is #6, Nate Robinson must be #5

• Andrew woods Posted: Oct.23 at 12:47 pm
  I agree with others that I found this write up lacking in measurable detail. When u are top 3 in offense for a center and number 1 in defense for any player, I dont see how you arent top 3 in the league. Not to mention if we are projecting stats, and dhoward is in a contract year I expect a lot more than what a no.6,ranking entails

• MUBWAR Posted: Oct.23 at 12:51 pm
  like I said yesterday Slam is on something this year. At least a good write up.

• BE.water Posted: Oct.23 at 12:52 pm
  @Dagger, I dont watch basketball for the crossovers. Sure I like highlights. but i dont think he is a better Basketball player than the 5 ahead of him, with a limited offensive game. Howard is a beast on D and does work on the block. You could make the argument that rose could drop out for him, but even then idk. I dont think 6 is selling him short at all.
  He IS THE BEST CENTER in the league hands down. But I’ll agree that others DO play the game better than he does.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 12:52 pm
  The guy carried the 10/11 Magic to 52 wins, I doubt Kobe/Durant/Rose could do the same. There are only 3 players in the NBA today that capable of carrying an average team to 50+ wins and the playoffs (Wade/DHow/Bron).

• boston32 Posted: Oct.23 at 12:53 pm
  That’s the thing guys, D12′s team wasn’t relevant last year and won’t be this season. Losing to the Hawks in the first round, a team you beat the previous year by an average of 30 points is unacceptable. Imo he’s the 2nd best player in the game, but his leadership has to step up a notch

• Tae Posted: Oct.23 at 12:55 pm
  Kobe is still no. 1. Lebron and Wade is a toss up for no. 2. #5 is Rose (better be Rose, no higher than 5) # 4 Durant, # 3 n #2 like i said a toss up between tha big two. But i still put my money on Kobe any day. N some of u guys are out of ur mind if u think Howard should be higher. Tha only person i would put Howard over is Rose

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 12:58 pm
  WTF!

• MUBWAR Posted: Oct.23 at 12:58 pm
  tae did you start smoking at 5?

• Andrew woods Posted: Oct.23 at 1:08 pm
  No doubt rose is a freak of nature, no doubt. But jesus, ahead of dhoward!??!? There is a great arguement to be made that dhoward should be ranked as high as no.2

• Royal Posted: Oct.23 at 1:09 pm
  B.E – I believe that Dwight makes a a bigger impact on the game than Derrick, Kevin , and Kobe. The guy is a game changer with his defensive abilities alone ; and now with his massive improvement on the offensive end the guy should only be under LeBron and Dwyane in my opinion. Sure Derrick,Kevin and Kobe put in work on offense , but Dwight puts in WORK on both ends of the court that can’t be said for the other three you mentioned.

• Ang Posted: Oct.23 at 1:10 pm
  Doesn’t he play for the Magic? New Orleans is wishful thinking…

• Royal Posted: Oct.23 at 1:11 pm
  I mean Kobe used to be game changer on defense but that was three years ago……

• Max Posted: Oct.23 at 1:11 pm
  This is just to low, should be 2 or 3…

• boston32 Posted: Oct.23 at 1:12 pm
  Rose-had an MVP season and played the most loaded position talent wise in the game. D12- dominated a position with the least amount of talent in the game. It kills me when people complain about Rose’s game being only about style and no substance, that kid led a team to 62 wins that’s all the substance you need

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 1:16 pm
  No one is docking Rose (the MVP led his team to 62 wins), it’s just that Howard is a better player. His impact on the outcome of a game is more than Rose/Durant/Kobe, therefore that makes him the better player.

• AirIndonesia Posted: Oct.23 at 1:21 pm
  i am a kobe fan, but dwight at 6? no way. my list for projected 2012 season is :
  Lebron
  Dwight
  Wade
  Rose
  Durant
  Kobe

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 1:23 pm
  JTaylor, only thing I disagree with in your 12:52 comment is Wade cannot carry an average team to 50 wins by himself either.
  The playoffs, yeah.
  But not 50 wins.
  Only times his team ever had 50 or more wins was when playing with either Shaq or Bron.
  And let’s not forget dude played in 51 games the year they only won 15.
  Just saying.

• Tae Posted: Oct.23 at 1:25 pm
  @MUBWAR actually i dont smoke at all. Ur telling me Rose is more important to Chicago than Dwight is to Orlando? Or that Kobe isnt still tha best shooting guard or all around player?

• ripslam Posted: Oct.23 at 1:25 pm
  Sandy Dover has a way of writing long, rambling articles that end up leaving you more confused than anything…also, Rose’s ranking is getting a bit ridiculous. Dude has one MVP season and suddenly leapfrogs the reigning Finals MVP and the best PG and C in the League?

• yada Posted: Oct.23 at 1:26 pm
  im gonna say what i said yesterday. i love dwight BUT HE GOT KNOCKED OUT IN THE 1ST ROUND!!!! by atlanta of all teams

• omphalos Posted: Oct.23 at 1:27 pm
  boston32 speaks the truth, Howard should be averaging 25-30 with the weakness of the Cs in the NBA these days. He’s virtually unopposed and still gets ousted by a team starting a PF at C (Al Horford). He would struggle in the 90s, just saying. Dwight is able to dominate defensively because most Cs aren’t a scoring threat and he could help freely without fear of repercussions. Rose is better than Howard, and will be next season (whenever that is).

• omphalos Posted: Oct.23 at 1:28 pm
  I will say that Kobe should be here though, he looked very old against Dallas, and I don’t see him bouncing back that much, even with the long layoff. His knees are shot to hell.

• BE.water Posted: Oct.23 at 1:28 pm
  Royal: On Defense Yes. But Atlanta found that you can single cover the man on offense… 1st round exit. I do forget sometimes that this ranking is for next season, and not an overall body of work.

• yada Posted: Oct.23 at 1:29 pm
  Let the D.rose critics come out!!! EVERY YEAR ppl do this. since college, hell since h.s!! same ppl laughed when he said he’d be mvp. next he gonna win a championship! then watch what the critics say

• ham Posted: Oct.23 at 1:31 pm
  Howard keeps you in games during the first three quarters, but when its money time he’s a non factor on offense due to his free throw shooting and inability to pass out of doubles. How many times did he cough up the ball at crucial moments against Atlanta?

• MikeC. Posted: Oct.23 at 1:33 pm
  It’s awfully hard to have a real discussion on this ranking when the writeup is blabbery gibberish about the son of Krypton and Ewing’s fadeaway instead of Howard’s impact on the court. Dwight Howard isn’t really Superman! Dwight Howard smiles! Patrick Ewing used to shoot jumpers! Dwight Howard is #6!

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 1:35 pm
  For any of you fools who don’t understand basketball and just like to throw out random opinions: the top 3 players in the league are Lebron, Kobe, and Dwight. They can go any order and there is no way around it unless you get really subjective (like SLAM and ESPN). 2011 All-NBA First Team 2011 All-Defensive Team
  ———————– ———————–
  Kevin Durant Dwight Howard
  LeBron James Rajon Rondo
  Dwight Howard LeBron James
  Kobe Bryant Kobe Bryant
  Derrick Rose Kevin Garnett 2011 MVP Voting
  —————
  Derrick Rose
  Dwight Howard
  LeBron James
  Kobe Bryant
  Kevin Durant What 3 names show up every time? Exactly. Kobe and LeBron have been the two best players in the league since the 2008-2009 season (LeBron is debatable as #2 before that). What has anyone done to have surpassed either of those guys? Ask coach, player, or important official in the league and they will tell you that those two have been the top perimeter players since Jordan retired in 1999. Kobe was not his best last season, but so the f*** what. Even in Bird’s last years as a Celtic (when his back gave in), he was still considered up there with Jordan in Magic in the early 90s. He loses athleticism and gets wiser, unlike you people. CP3′s season (not playoffs) wasn’t so great either, but see he still has argument over Rose. My point exactly, one season is not going change how great a player is unless they suffer a MAJOR injury. Durant and Rose have time, but they still have a ways to go to get on the Bron/Kobe level. More importantly, stop saying Wade is better than either of those two as well. What has Wade done since 06? Where was he before LeBron took his talents to South Beach. Don’t worry, I’ll wait. Kobe and LeBron are the only two super elite players on both sides of the ball (LeBron still has some holes in his offense) (Kobe has no weakness whatsoever) (and Wade is in that list too, but to a lesser degree). That is why those two are the best in the league, with Wade at #3. Any objective person knows the center position is the most important in basketball and Dwight covers that. CENTERS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE THE SKILLS OF GUARDS AND SMALL FORWARDS. So was Shaq not the best player in the league in the early 2000s because he wasn’t as skilled as Kobe, Iverson, and T-Mac? Right. Dwight may not be a super offensive threat, but neither was Bill Russell and he’s a top 5 player of all-time. Those guy’s defensive presence is more than you idiots can comprehend. Any team with Dwight is a threat, they may not win, but they are a threat. For now on, unless your opinion is objective and makes sense, don’t comment. I’m a big fan of all the top players, but unlike you casual morons, I have opinions without bias and I actually know something about basketball and the NBA. Thanks

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 1:36 pm
  Wow that printed kind of ugly lol. Read and get the point

• brad Posted: Oct.23 at 1:38 pm
  Whenever Rose comes up in the rankings I guarantee he will break the record for most comments ever for slam, I love the angst in these comments its amusing…..

• Ronald Posted: Oct.23 at 1:40 pm
  Worst writer for the worst ranking. Please stick to writing advertorials.

• matt Posted: Oct.23 at 1:40 pm
  I think him, rose and LBJ should be top 3. don’t know in what order though. Durant should be fourth. Kobe 5th. Durant is a scorer. Rose carried his team (although his team has one of the best defensive coaches if not the best in the NBA). Therefore Rose should be 3rd. Hard to say either Dwight or LBJ could be on top. Put one of them on any team and they instantly become a playoff team. My D could look good if i played on the magic lol. LBJ is the best overall basketball player in the league and could realistically play all 5 positions. Also, LOL at Jennings in the top 50. most overrated player in the NBA by far. He scores 55 pts in a game and ppl think he is a star. Horrible shot selection and horrible playmaker.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 1:44 pm
  Enigmatic, you’re right. So there are only 2 players in the L that are able to carry an average team to 50+ wins (DHow and LeBron). Those guys should be Top-2 on everyone’s list.
  Going by All-NBA defensive teams is not the way to judge players because most of the time, the writers vote the most popular player in instead of the right player.

• matt Posted: Oct.23 at 1:45 pm
  @Maniac – true. I think top ten players ever are (in no particular order): Kobe,Magic,Jordan,Bird,Russell,Wilt,Kareem,Hakeem,Duncan, and Shaq. 6 are Cs.

• The Philosopher Posted: Oct.23 at 1:45 pm
  Great write up.
  It had imagination, and a differing style to other write ups. The other write ups were great, as well.
  In my opinion…

• Caboose Posted: Oct.23 at 1:47 pm
  This is by far the worst ranking. Slam, idk what happened to you guys, but this list is just pathetic. Yall know defense matters too right? So go ahead and just put Rose at #1 now. That’d fit this list perfectly.

• Caboose Posted: Oct.23 at 1:51 pm
  And Sandy, Dwight put up 23-14 last year, not 18-13. Good god this whole ranking and article is just sad.

• The Philosopher Posted: Oct.23 at 1:54 pm
  Rose at #1 is not that far fetched.
  Especially being that the SLAM rankings are based solely on PROJECTED 2011-12 performances.
  I don’t know…

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 1:56 pm
  Damn Caboose, why you gotta go there?
  Rose tries on defense, it’s not like if they were to put a non-defense caring Melo at 1.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 1:57 pm
  @matt – Yeah that top 10 is fine. I think every top 10 should have Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe, Magic, & Bird. 8-14 gets awkward because everyone has different opinions. In recent years, the younger generation has gone back and seen Hakeem’s YouTube videos and stats and seem to overrate him ALOT. Hakeem was never really seen as a stamp on every top 10, but he is top 15 definitely. Him, Shaq, and Duncan can go in any kind of order. Oscar and West get a lot of disrespect from people who don’t respect NBA history. Personally, I have Oscar at #8, but to each their own. Dr. J and Baylor don’t get a lot of respect either. I’m guessing because Doc’s ABA career is dismissed easily and Baylor never won a championship. Overall though: Jordan/Russell/Wilt/Kareem/Kobe/Magic/Bird is my top 7 in some order and Oscar/West/Doc/Shaq/Duncan/Baylor/Hakeem is my top 8-14 in some order.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 1:57 pm
  For example, Kobe made the defensive team over Wade, Rondo made it over JHoliday and Deng, RBrewer and Luc Mbah a Moute were left out. Most writers (too much favoritism) and coaches (too busy) don’t have a clue when it comes to ranking players.

• Caboose Posted: Oct.23 at 1:58 pm
  So look, Rose is likely going to put up about 26/5/7 next year, Kobe about 24/5/5, Durant about 29/8/3. And I see Dwight (based on playoffs) going for about 26/15/1. And Dwight’s defense is better than all three of those guys. Seriously Slam, I’m disappointed.

• MUBWAR Posted: Oct.23 at 2:00 pm
  lool at caboose. lets add 22 points on 13 FG. I want SVG to explain why on earth are scrubs like Turk averaging as many attempts as superman.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 2:00 pm
  Any top-10 all-time list that doesn’t include Hakeem/Duncan/Shaq/BigO shouldn’t be taken seriously.

• AllBall Posted: Oct.23 at 2:01 pm
  This ranking is terrible. Dwight is the second best player in the league.

• The Babe Posted: Oct.23 at 2:02 pm
  I have been on board with you guys so far but this is a ridiculous rating for Superman… Disappointed slam you’re better than that!

• flash Posted: Oct.23 at 2:07 pm
  (on my opinion) it should be:
  1. kobe
  2. dirk
  3. wade
  4. lebron
  5. howard
  6. rose
  7. durant
  1st on the list is the toughest competition and the least i want to battle with.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 2:10 pm
  @JTaylor21 Do you know why Kobe was selected? Guess not. OK i guess I have to educate again. Why can’t Kobe not be a first team All-Defensive player? Do you know what it means to be on that elite list? So you know more about the NBA than the coaches huh? You know, the guys that draw up the plays that makes your favorite player looks better than he is… Anyways, I have no clue where this myth has emerged that Kobe is still not a top 5 defender in the league. (Must be the hate). Kobe Bryant is a rarity. Every real basketball observer knows that on a traditional team, the center or dominant power forward anchors the defense. Do you know who is the verbal leader on defense (and offense) for the Lakers? Surely not Pau Gasol lol. Wanna know what other elite guard anchored the defense (I’ll give you a hint, he has six rings)? And even he had Pippen (who probably was a overall better defender) to anchor it with. Every coach knows that. Every basketball fan doesn’t. Kobe may be as quick as he used to be, but like I said, he is wiser.

• datkid Posted: Oct.23 at 2:12 pm
  incredible….

• Caboose Posted: Oct.23 at 2:17 pm
  Ah sorry Enig, you have your boy, I have mine. Rose is a better offensive player than Dwight for sure, and yeah, he tries on D. But Dwight tried and dominates the defensive end.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 2:18 pm
  @JTaylor21 I see that you must be one of those little kids who just started watching basketball after Jordan was playing in DC lol. Once again, HAKEEM OLAJUWON WAS NEVER SEEN AS A STAMP ON EVERY TOP 10 LIST. He has never been considered for the greatest of all time. I love Hakeem, but I don’t overrate players. He is top 15 most definitely, but he does not need to be on everyone’s top 10. Those positions are reserved for the following: Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, & Bird. I love Oscar and he is in that elite group as well, in my opinion, but there is thing called evolution and I don’t cringe when I see him lower than a Shaq or Duncan. Kobe is most definitely in that group with the players I named and it will be finalized when he retires. My top 5 is Jordan, the 3 great centers, and Kobe. Magic and Bird follow. All 7 of those guys have legit arguments for being the greatest. (Oscar too, but he gets no respect these days). After that top 8, THEN Hakeem, Shaq, and Duncan can be considered with West, Doc, and Baylor. Get your stuff together before you make crazy claims.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 2:26 pm
  @Caboose I’m with you. Dwight is “better” than Rose. Centers shouldn’t be compared to point guards anyway, but if they were, Dwight’s impact on the game goes much further than Rose’s. Dwight does not need to have a super offensive impact as I said in that big paragraph up there. Centers are not supposed to be skilled like guards and small forwards. Only when the perimeter player has a bigger impact on the game can they be ranked higher than a dominant center (Kobe and LeBron). That is why Dwight should be #3 and more importantly, top 5. Shaq had the same weaknesses that Dwight has (except Shaq was just a bully). Dwight can’t slam his way into the post like Shaq did because: A. he is not as big and B. the refs are stricter to the post players because of how the league is designed to favor the perimeter these days. Dwight is twice the rebounder that Shaq was and twice the defender. Both suck at free throws and are not really big in clutch (Kobe was the closer for the Lakers in the early 2000s). Shaq’s footwork is much better, but he didn’t have super great post moves as a Hakeem or McHale. That did not stop Shaq from being the best in the early 2000s.

• Max Posted: Oct.23 at 2:29 pm
  Maniac, Kobe making the list over Tony Allen alone should say enough..
  Also, I’m in on the 2k thingy if I get my ps3 back.

• MikeC. Posted: Oct.23 at 2:31 pm
  @ maniac – don’t forget about Kareem. He is so slept on. He’s gotta be top-5 on anyone’s list. I rank Kareem ahead of Wilt and *gasp* ahead of Bird on some days.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 2:32 pm
  The Lakers are not even a good defensive team as evidenced by the mavs raining 3 after 3 on their head as the “rarity” watched along with his teammates. Anyways, why am I wasting my time arguing with a kobe fan? Much rather argue with a donkey.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 2:32 pm
  @Max – Are you agreeing that Kobe is a top 5 defender or saying that Tony Allen is a better defender?

• The Philosopher Posted: Oct.23 at 2:32 pm
  Again, solely based on… projections.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 2:34 pm
  Co-sign Max about Tony Allen.
  Kobe didn’t deserve 1st team all-defense

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 2:36 pm
  Tony Allen was a better defender than Kobe Bryant last year.
  Maniac, if you disagree with that then you’re just yet another blind Lakers fan that thinks their golden boy can do no wrong.
  Say hi to SEED, Kap and LakeShow for me…

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 2:36 pm
  @Mike C – I did say Kareem. I would never not mention him. There is no problem taking Kareem over Wilt or Bird. Hell, you would not be wrong for taking Kareem over Jordan, Wilt over Jordan, or Bird over Jordan. These guys all have debate for being the greatest (some have better arguments than others.) My personal top 5 consists of the 3 great centers and the 2 greatest shooting guards.

• Joey E. Posted: Oct.23 at 2:37 pm
  yeah i’d put dwight ahead of rose, but overall this list is miles better than the espn list. great job as usual SLAM

• ctkennedy Posted: Oct.23 at 2:38 pm
  if u aint ATLEAST 60 yrs old …Then how can u rank the older players…knowin your history is one thing but WATCHIN them I REPEAT WATCHIN them yr in n yr out is another…I got respect for the numbers Wilt,Russell,n others from them days put up….but we CANT truly rank them …watchin a old game or two aint sayin much …lol

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 2:41 pm
  @JTaylor21 – The Lakers are a good defensive team you fool. They had a bad series. They have an ancient point guard (fisher), but otherwise they are good, not great, defensively. Secondly, I guess Miami isn’t the best defensive team in the league because Dallas “rained 3′s” on them too. Right…… Stfu. I am not a Kobe fan. I am a NBA fan first. Is Kobe my favorite player in the league? Yes, but I watch the game with unbiased eyes. Unlike you who sees what they want to see.

• The Philosopher Posted: Oct.23 at 2:43 pm
  Agree with Kareem possibly being the Greatest of All Times.
  Even though Magic is.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 2:44 pm
  smh! *nbk’s voice*

• yada Posted: Oct.23 at 2:50 pm
  I NEVER UNDERSTOOD how ppl can rank and say how good “so and so ” was when YOU NEVER SAW THEM PLAY!! dont tell me about any player that you didnt sit down and watch that game when they were actually playing in that year of their career. ppl tell me “but wilt chamberlin was…” cmon man u aint seen wilt play. “lemme tell u about oscar robertson” cmon man u aint seen oscar play

• MikeC. Posted: Oct.23 at 2:50 pm
  @maniac – sorry, missed the Kareem mention. Your posts were crazy long and I skimmed. Kareem is hands-down the greatest big that ever played. Russel is the greatest winner, Wilt had the best individual career ever. Kareem had incredible individual and team success across 3 different eras. I can see the argument for Kareem as best ever. Kareem/Jordan are interchangeable for me as best ever. Jordan tends to get the nod due to his media presence, but Kareem won a ring with the Bucks. The Bucks! That’s worth the #1 slot right there.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 2:50 pm
  @Enigmatic – How exactly is Tony Allen a better defender than Kobe? Is Tony a great defender? Hell yeah. There are different types of defenders. The first is the group where they LEAD the defense (most of the time it is the big man, but you have the rarities such as Jordan, Pippen, and Kobe, LeBron now that he anchors the defense in Miami). The second group are great one on one defenders (Tony Allens, Bruce Bowens, etc..). The third group consists of guys who get good defensive stats, but are not necessarily great one-on-one (Allen Iverson, etc..). Kobe LEADS the LA defense and that is why he ranks over Tony Allen. That is the same reason he ranked over Bowen in earlier years and other one-on-one defenders like Bowen. Why do you think LeBron is going to be perennial on that list now? Because he has taken that extra step to leading the defense (He used to just get a lot of steals and blocks). These guys defensive presence cannot be measured and goes beyond what casual fans can comprehend. WATCH THE GAME WITH UNBIASED EYES. No comment on me being a blind Laker fan because I am a Chicago native and supports the Bulls…. fools

• brad Posted: Oct.23 at 2:51 pm
  All I’m saying is the “so called” 2nd best player in the game should be able to elevate his team over the Hawks

• yada Posted: Oct.23 at 2:52 pm
  lets be real, kareem would get BODIED by shaq. so i can never put kareem over shaq regardless what the #s say!! i remember kareem saying that same exact thing!! that shaq would be too big for him!!

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 2:54 pm
  Kobe’s not the anchor of LA’s defense, it’s their two 7footers. Also, if you think that Kobe was ever a better defender than Bruce Bowen, your opinion about anything basketball related should be taken with a grain of salt.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 2:55 pm
  Shaq wouldn’t be able to stop KAJ on the defensive end, so it goes both ways.

• Tae Posted: Oct.23 at 2:57 pm
  Boy i cant wait to see #5

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 2:58 pm
  A Chicago native named Maniac?
  So do you break it to the right or you just happen to like that name?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 2:58 pm
  @MikeC – Yeah lol I tend to say a lot when I’m speaking my mind. I usually post comments after I read articles on websites so I’m somewhat venting. I agree and disagree with you. Yes, Jordan is extremely overrated by the media and he is not the hands down greatest. I love Jordan to death and he may be the greatest, but he is not the sole owner of that title. I disagree that Kareem is “hands down” the greatest center. If he were, then Jordan would not have all the hype. Kareem, Wilt, and Russell are on the same shelf. Ranking them with a definitive order isn’t smart. It’s one thing to say x is better than y because z, but it’s another to say things like “hands down”. When I rank, I put Jordan at the top by default and then go from there, but it is totally fine to have one of the centers, Magic, or Bird at the top. (I wrote a strong argument about Kobe being that group as well when he retires in an article from earlier this year, let me know if you want to know why).

• LA Huey Posted: Oct.23 at 2:59 pm
  Wow this is too low for Dwight. He’s at least #4.

• The Philosopher Posted: Oct.23 at 2:59 pm
  Taylor @2:55p.m. took the words from… my fingertips.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 2:59 pm
  @Mike C – *don’t post comments

• The Philosopher Posted: Oct.23 at 3:01 pm
  The media don’t really care for Lew.
  They never really did.
  Just think about what would have happened to Alcindor’s legacy had the media loved him like they love other players.

• yada Posted: Oct.23 at 3:01 pm
  kareem would foul out in the 1st half!! prime shaq>>>>prime kareem

• yada Posted: Oct.23 at 3:03 pm
  kareem lised weight is 225 LBS STOP IT!!! i respect and love what he did for the game but he would get BODIED

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 3:05 pm
  @JTaylor21 – My opinion taken with a grain of salt (pardon me if I laugh at that). Once again, there are plenty of players, coaches, and important officials in the NBA who would agree with me more often than not. Kobe is clearly the verbal leader and anchors the defense. How the hell can Bynum be the anchor when he hasn’t consistently been on the floor since the Lakers started the championship ambitions in 09? Defense is about CONSISTENCY. Pau does not anchor the defense you moron. Pau is not even a elite defender. How can a player labeled to be “soft” anchor a championship defense? Educate yourself

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 3:07 pm
  @Enigmatic – I write and producer hip-hip music. It’s my stage name.

• KJackson Posted: Oct.23 at 3:07 pm
  Dwight howard has no competition at the Center position. Give me a break. Drose plays against top notch competition every night. Some of you people who believe Dwight Howard is a top 3 player are F&*king clueless. His Not clutch, u dont want the ball in his hands at the end of the game. He has improved offensively. DRose led his team to 62 wins. He was the MVP. Why do people have a problem with Drose rated higher than Dwight. I guess yall love the ESPN Rankings. Every body know Slam rankings are way more legitmate. how many teams have Dwight led to 60 wins? how many MVPs does Dwight have?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 3:07 pm
  @Enigmatic – *produce

• Andrew woods Posted: Oct.23 at 3:07 pm
  How is kobe still a elite defender when he no longer shadows the oppositions best guard? kobe is a stubborn killer on the court or a petulent killer depending on your vantage point. And speaking of the players that can carry a team to 50+ wins, I no longer, actually I never did, think kobe was on that list. He owes lakers management a lot for his stature in the league because before gasol came. He was checking out mentally in playoff games against the suns.

• The Philosopher Posted: Oct.23 at 3:11 pm
  Kareem was also listed in the 270′s for a while…

• D12FSU Posted: Oct.23 at 3:11 pm
  6!?!? Are you kidding me slam?! He’s the best center in the world, the most dominant player since shaq..,and you have him at 6.,,,smh

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 3:12 pm
  Maniac – Ah, ok.
  Well, do your thing. But you know if you’re still living in the Chi, that’s like a dude in LA nicknamed “Blood”.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 3:15 pm
  @The Philospher – I agree that Kareem gets the backhand treatment from the media. It goes beyond that though. Kareem’s prime was in the 70s. Basketball junkies know that to probably be the worst decade in basketball history from a marketing standpoint. The NBA was going downhill, FAST. A lot of of people missed Kareem’s prime so they never grew to love him the way they do the other all-time greatest players. That is the same reason that Doc is so severely underrated by people today. People only remember Laker Kareem when he was a shell of his prime self. I get upset when people give Magic all the credit for the Lakers titles in the 80s, but fail to recognize that they were in the finals in 1980 because of Kareem. Kareem was the leading scorer for the Lakers until about 85 (he was even the Finals MVP that year). So they both were important pieces for the Showtime Lakers (more so Kareem in the early 80s and Magic and the later 80s).

• The Philosopher Posted: Oct.23 at 3:17 pm
  @Maniac:
  Agree.

• MikeC. Posted: Oct.23 at 3:19 pm
  @yada- Kareem was listed between 225 and 265 during his career. Hakeem was listed between 230 and 250. Hakeem did pretty well in head to heads with Shaq. Less weight doesn’t mean weakness.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 3:21 pm
  @The Philosopher – A lot of the all-time greats had problems with the media (yes even the beloved Jordan with his gambling, divorce, etc…). Wilt was seen as a selfish loser, but it was patched up with his run with the Lakers in the early 70s. Russell always had problems with the media because of the racist times (dude didn’t even show up to his own jersey hanging ceremony or hall of fame induction), but remembering the Celtics dynasty patches it up. Oscar was mean as s*** and hated everyone. His win with the Bucks fixed the up. We all know how Kobe is hated by everybody and their mama and now it’s Lebron’s turn. Magic and Bird didn’t get the crap because they saved the NBA and were loved by the media (because of this, Kareem never was loved because everyone was on Magic’s nuts). It’s even more obvious because Magic didn’t get all the crap for getting HIV and was actually held in a higher regard. Basically, Kareem never got his chance to get the love.

• yada Posted: Oct.23 at 3:21 pm
  whoever listed him at 270 was joking. u can look at him and tell he 240 at the most

• brad Posted: Oct.23 at 3:21 pm
  The higher Rose climbs, the more people whine……

• Max Posted: Oct.23 at 3:23 pm
  Cosign Andrew Woode, Tony Allen is just a better defender than Kobe because he guards and almost allways shut the opposing player down, Kobe doesn’t do that anymore see CP3.
  Even JKidd is a better defender than Kobe.

• Valerio Posted: Oct.23 at 3:26 pm
  how can u think that Kobe (and I love Kobe) will have a better season than D12???
  Ok Orlando got knocked a 1st round by ATL but we are talking about Orlando….and if you do the rank thinking about the PO then how can u put Dirk at 7#??? IMHO Kobe won’t have a better season than Dwight, DRose will, LBJ will, maybe Wade will but not Kobe.
  He carries his team alone, he has a huge impact on the season. And I absolutely didn’t like the article, completely missing the point IMHO, no skill talking, no season talkin….what’s that s**t about superman & co??? DAMN!

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 3:27 pm
  @Andrew Woods – Obviously you dislike Kobe and now making absurd claims that Kobe could never carry a 50 win team. FIRST OFF, NO ONE “CARRIES” A TEAM ANYWHERE. That’s why basketball is a TEAM sport. Everyone needs help. The fact that Kobe made it to the playoffs with that s***ty teams means something. LeBron, Wade, Duncan, Dirk, Rose, Durant, and every other elite player on these teams have HELP whether you see it or not. I don’t feel the need to discuss Kobe’s defense anymore because if you don’t get it now, you never will.

• The Philosopher Posted: Oct.23 at 3:29 pm
  @Maniac:
  If Kareem doesn’t change his name to a Muslim name, things may have been different. Arguably.
  We can see today how the media, (and some others) portray Muslims. It was kind of the same back then.
  Also, Kareem does not help himself in the media department with his perception that he is aloof, and introverted.

• KH10 Posted: Oct.23 at 3:30 pm
  This is a good spot for Dwight and an interesting article, for years I’ve been comparing him to the best centers of the past and unfortunately he comes up way short of dudes like Shaq, Hakeem and DRob. But i’n today’s NBA he is at least the 6th best player. If he is going to take the next step he needs a new coach, SVG is holding back his every chance of individual and team success, unless the Magic lose SVG then I hope Dwight does leave. Right now all of the guys ranked ahead of him deserve to be here, and any one of them could be next seasons best performer.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 3:35 pm
  @Max – It’s because of opinions like this that the fans don’t have a say in the All-Defense Teams. More importantly, the fans don’t have a say in anything, but the All-Star activities which is MEANINGLESS anyway. Try not to say anything else for the rest of the day because you are embarrassing yourself. You should try out for NBA coaching since you OBVIOUSLY know much more than they do… These are the same guys who make guys like Tony Allen, (and your other favorite players), look much better than they are when they draw up their defensive schemes and offensive plays. Do research, watch the game, educate yourself.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 3:38 pm
  @The Philosopher – I’m not going to go that far. Hakeem is Muslim too and he never got the backhand. Hakeem was the most celebrated center of the 90s. It goes beyond just being Muslim. The NBA is a minority league, meaning the league is predominately black, a minority race. Because racism is practically impossible (unless you’re talking owners vs players) in the league, I have a hard time bringing religion into the equation. I’ve heard that theory though numerous times.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 3:48 pm
  @Valerio – I think the whole thing about projections that SLAM does every year is incredibly stupid. There are so many different variables to consider. Rose wasn’t even in their top 10 last year and he ended up being MVP. By the way, Kobe is back healthy this year so you have no idea what he’ll do this season. He could have another sub-par one or he could erupt for over 25 a game. LeBron could quit in the season instead of the playoffs or he could average his usual close to triple double. Dwight could get frustrated with the trade and free-agent rumors and have a bad season or he could reek havoc on the post. This Derrick Rose MVP season could be a one time thing or he could prove himself again. Durant could have a MVP season like Rose or he could just get by on leading the league in scoring. Dirk might fall-off or the Mavs could repeat. WE DON’T KNOW. That’s why projecting is stupid and ranking just for now is what should be done.

• The Philosopher Posted: Oct.23 at 3:52 pm
  @Maniac:
  Understood.
  But, is Hakeem as “big” as Kareem? One’s “bigness” (if that’s a word) plays at least a small role on how the media treats one.
  Also, Hakeem is not American. You know?
  Also, he was friendly and jovial to the members of the media. Especially as his career progressed.
  Lew, for a brief period of time, was in fact, celebrated in the media. Only until he changed his name.
  He was in the company of Cassius Clay and Malcolm Little.
  People who were not promoted in a positive light by the media, at the time.
  Had he ran with Martin King, (shout out to Cornel West) and not changed his name to a Muslim name…
  But, I see your point, though. Trust and believe.

• EJ Posted: Oct.23 at 3:53 pm
  Top 5 most underrated players on the list:
  1. Dwight
  2. CP3
  3. Bogut
  4. Deng
  5. Pau/Deron

• The Philosopher Posted: Oct.23 at 3:57 pm
  And, you’re right, Maniac.
  It’s projections.
  But, that is fun. It generates cdommentary.
  Commentary is always good, in my opinion. Whether it be positive commentary, or negative commentary.
  I don’t know…

• Mark the Gospel Posted: Oct.23 at 3:58 pm
  Who knew Dwight Howard played for the Hornets?

• Andrew woods Posted: Oct.23 at 3:59 pm
  @maniac…if kobe is the anchor why does artest guard the best player? Ill answer, so kobe saves his energy for the offensive side of the court. Personally I think the anchor title should go to thr lakers two 7 footers

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 4:02 pm
  @The Philosopher: That’s very true. I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I think Kareem just doesn’t have that “IT” factor. He doesn’t stand out. There will always be Russell vs. Wilt and Magic vs. Bird. Jordan will always be Jordan. Kareem was just unfortunate to play in the 70s (like Doc) and play in Magic’s shadow in the 80s. Real basketball fans acknowledge his greatness, but he honestly doesn’t stand out. I can honestly consider him the “third wheel” in the greatest center argument when breaking it down to a casual fan. He’ll always remain at the top of NBA’s lore with the others, but Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Magic, and Bird just stand out more. Like I said, he’s in my top 5, but to each his own.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 4:08 pm
  @Andrew Woods – Thanks for answering your own question. Why did Pippen guard the other team’s best perimeter player more often than not? Does that make Mike any less of a defender? Wouldn’t you want your best player saving as much energy as possible? As I said already, Pau is “soft” so he couldn’t anchor anything. Dirk is a 7 skilled foot European as well who is considered “soft”. Dirk doesn’t anchor s***. Tyson was the anchor this year. Bynum is too inconsistent to be a leader. Defense is about CONSISTENCY, and your leader can’t be a young injury center who’s IQ still needs a lot of work. Kobe has one of the top 10 basketball IQ’s in the world (I didn’t say top 5 because you got pgs like Kidd and CP3) and leads the Lakers defense. Watch the games in depth.

• Andrew woods Posted: Oct.23 at 4:10 pm
  @maniac…i agree it is a team sport, but it makes whhat some players accomplish even more profound when their ‘team’ lacks the talent and know how but still that same player ‘carries’ them to respectability. I def love Kobe but im also realistic. He is a great player but time is definently catching up to him. Not to mention if somehow shaq stayed they had a chance at being the second best dynasty behind russell’s celtics. Still five rings is five rings

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 4:13 pm
  @EJ – Dwight. Criminally underrated. CP3. Just right. Bogut. Maybe. Deng. Maybe. Pau. Anywhere between 11-13 is good. Deron. 9-10 is good.

• The Philosopher Posted: Oct.23 at 4:13 pm
  @Maniac:
  Hey, you may very well be correct in your assertions.
  Anyways, peace to the SLAM brethren.
  Gotta go.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 4:23 pm
  @Andrew Woods – I don’t count rings as much as other people do. I would still love Kobe if the Lakers didn’t win in 09 and 10. Still loved him after they got swept. CP3 is my second favorite player and I still love him even though his knee is messed up. Yes time is catching up to Kobe, but I could make the argument that time is catching up to Dirk too (who is the same age as Kobe). Time catches up to all the great players, but no one ever questioned their credibility as they aged. So why Kobe? You people act like he’s 40. The guy was considered the best in the world in 2010 when the Lakers were winning (along with LeBron). He was averaging 30 in the playoffs in 2010, and 25 in this season. He had two high scoring games the playoffs this year (people forget that). Yes, he is getting older and his body was injured. That does not mean that these other players have somehow eclipsed him. Really. Be honest. The only guys that can honestly go over him is LeBron and Dwight. There is just so much hate for the guy that he gets the backhand.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 4:35 pm
  This is a horrible failure by slam. So dissapointed

• Andrew woods Posted: Oct.23 at 4:41 pm
  @maniac…its not so much his age but the mileage on his body. We can agree to disagree about kobe’s defensive worth. I still think he is a very very good defender. As far as who can be considered above him in rankings? Lebron and dhoward I whole heartedly agree with and I think a case can be made for durant(small case), dwade, and dirk.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 4:41 pm
  If I were a gambling man (which I am), I would bet that their #5 tomorrow will be Wade.

• datkid Posted: Oct.23 at 4:47 pm
  as am I nbk as am I… I’m also disappointed by that maniac idiot arguing that a 31 year old kobe is more important than being able to keep 2 defensively sound 7 footers in the paint at all times…

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 4:48 pm
  Either Rose or KD will be next…then again, that’s what I said yesterday.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 4:54 pm
  Andrew Woods – My problem with ranking Dirk is that he has become so overrated since the Finals. What did we think of Dirk before the playoffs? He was just plain Dirk. Great shooter, soft, choker. Yep he proved all of us wrong and moved up in ALL-TIME rankings, but not current. He did not magically become a better player. People have a hard time separating the two. No way in hell would someone in their right mind have ranked Dirk over Kobe before the playoffs. It should remain the same. They are both going downhill from their peaks. It’s simple logic. Durant isn’t there yet and it’s too premature. Give it time. Technically, Durant’s season could be considered a disappointment to some because they were so sure he would be MVP this year and he fell out of the race early. I love KD, but his defense needs work and his overall IQ is still improving. (I’m still not sure if Durant is better than Dirk right now). Wade is tough. I got Wade at #4 with Bron-Kobe-Dwight at 1-3 in any order. You have to ask yourself. What does Wade do better than Kobe? Definitely gets to the basket better, but it stops right there. Kobe’s game is still more complete than Wade’s and Wade has a knack of disappearing ever since Bron took his talents to South Beach (excluding the finals). I highly doubt Kobe would disappear in LeBron’s presence. Plus Wade has NEVER been a better player than Kobe since he has been in the league. Has Wade gotten better since last year? Nope. Kobe gotten worse? Athletically, yep. Otherwise, Kobe is still better overall.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 4:56 pm
  “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.” — Mark Twain.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 4:58 pm
  @Enigmatic – SLAM seems to be infatuated with KD; that’s why I think they’ll rank him ahead of Wade. Rose is going to start getting that extra bump that Durant gets.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 4:59 pm
  Wade’s better than Kobe and has been since ’08. All-NBA and all-defensive rankings be damned.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 5:00 pm
  I CALLED THIS. NO WAY IS DWIGHT HOWARD #2 (ESPN)

• BlackPhantom Posted: Oct.23 at 5:00 pm
  What a terrible ranking.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 5:02 pm
  Wade does everything better then Kobe at this point in their careers except shoot from deep. That is factually evident by watching them play and looking at their stats.

• jarrett Posted: Oct.23 at 5:02 pm
  Dwight Howard is overrated by these guys in the commenting section in my opinion.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 5:04 pm
  @datkid – First of all, watch your mouth. Secondly, Kobe is not 31 (shows how much you know). Don’t make a claim without the proper facts. Third, I’m not going to entertain the Kobe’s defense argument anymore. I think I have elaborated on that enough. Being 7 foot is not an automatic claim for being a great defender. ONCE AGAIN, Pau is “soft”. Love him to death, but dude is not a leader. Ex. DIRK IS ALSO A 7 FOOT, EUROPEAN, SKILLED BIG MAN AND HE IS NOT A DEFENSIVE LEADER. Bynum is fine, but his IQ is suspect, he is injury prone, and inconsistent. Drew has been in trade rumors. WHY THE HELL WOULD THE LAKERS TRADE THEIR “ANCHOR”? My point exactly. I rest my case.

• jarrett Posted: Oct.23 at 5:05 pm
  my bad JTaylor i dont know why my CPU just did that, and added the link to youre profile too. weird. but i just said “no way is howard #2″

• Snake Posted: Oct.23 at 5:08 pm
  Mamba is #1 !

• jarrett Posted: Oct.23 at 5:09 pm
  To all the Haters on this spot for Dwight Howard : what does Dwight do that he didn’t do 2 years ago? What aspect of his game has improved that would put him in the top 5? — Dwight’s not all that, even if he is the best center in the League. He’s yet to average more than 25 points !!!! SLAM great job!!!

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 5:12 pm
  Dwight Howard led a team to the finals. Kevin Durant and Derrick Rose are great offensive players and OK defensively. Dwight is the best defensive big in the league, and the most efficient offensive bigman in the league. There is no logical way to argue Durant or Rose over him. The case can be made for Kobe although I would not agree at all. The Magic have Hedo Turkoglu, Jameer Nelson, Brandan Bass, Jason Richardson, JJ Reddick, & Ryan Anderson playin the majority of minutes and they are top 5 in the league defensively, does nobody realize how ridiculous that is? smh, I’m done for the day, this is crazy horrible.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 5:13 pm
  @JTaylor21 & @nbk: You obviously are heavily influenced by STATS. That is why I posted the quote. How the f*** has Wade been better since 08? You’re talking about the same time when Kobe was the closer and DEFENSIVE LEADER for the SAME OLYMPIC TEAM THAT WADE AND LEBRON WAS ON? Wade is not a better rebounder. Kobe has 7 footers to grab those so he doesn’t go after them. STATS DON’T TELL YOU THAT. Kobe DOES NOT HAVE A WEAKNESS. Shoot from deep? Dude Kobe does everything better in terms of scoring outside of getting to the rack. (There is this thing called mid-range). Passing skills and playmaking skills are debatable, but Kobe will get doubled teamed before Wade does. Defense… I have said enough. Funny how Wade couldn’t even make First Team this year over Rose when Kobe did… Explain that. STOP LOOKING AT STATS AND WATCH THE GAMES.

• Andrew woods Posted: Oct.23 at 5:14 pm
  Maniac…again I agree about the nation wide love fest that consumed dirk. Yes he was considered soft. But soft isnt as tangible as the actual stats he produces. Kobe vs dirk is a hard and unfair comparison. I feel they are neck and neck with each having their seperate strength and weaknesses. I think less of durant because I value the ability to be able to pass and set up fellow teammates. Its great to b able to score 30pg but its better to avg 30pg and keep your teammates involved. Wade to me is a closer replica to kobes game albeit with more athletic ability but without kobes range and post moves.

• BlackPhantom Posted: Oct.23 at 5:16 pm
  Wade hasn’t been better than Kobe since ’08, c’mon now

• UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER Posted: Oct.23 at 5:16 pm
  DWIGHT SHOULD BE NUMBER TWO. NO DEBATING THAT. THIS LIST IS THE WORST SLAM HAS DONE AS FAR AS I CAN RECALL. SO MANY PROBLEMS. I CANT WAIT UNTIL DWIGHT GETS TO A TEAM THAT WILL MAKE HIM THE FOCUS ON OFFENSE, AND NOT JUST SOMEONE TO GIVE THE BALL TO AFTER MISSING 4 3S IN A ROW, AND WITH TEAMMATES WHO CARE ABOUT DEFENSE, AND A NON INSANE COACH. THE MAGIC ARE HOLDING DWIGHT BACK.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 5:18 pm
  Kobe was the defensive leader of the 08 Olympic team? That right there should warrant a year-long ban from commenting on Slam.
  Wade is a better defender (on and off the ball), better rebounder, better passer, more efficient player, and better finisher around the basket. Basically he’s better at everything expect for 3pt shooting and mid-range.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 5:20 pm
  @JTaylor21 – It’s even crazier that you said 08 because Wade played 51 games that season… Started in 49. Like I said, what has Wade done since 06 that makes him better? Nothing.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 5:21 pm
  Maniac Kobe is on a better team and he is still considerable less efficient. Togo with the fact that he scores less while shooting MORE shots. He hasn’t been asked to guard an elite offensive player since 2008, he isn’t the help defender he used to be either. I watch more basketball then you Realize, stats are for support, not to make a case.

• BlackPhantom Posted: Oct.23 at 5:22 pm
  Wade is better than Kobe right now, yes. Career-wise? Hell no

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 5:23 pm
  @JTaylor21 – You are a f***ing idiot and don’t watch basketball at all. Do I have to post the thousands of articles about how Kobe set the pace for the Olympic Team in 08 and how everyone followed after his lead; how he closed the games and ANCHORED THE DEFENSE? Do some research and stop being so biased.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 5:25 pm
  I mean an argument is pretty dumb right off the bat if you want to focus onanything that happened 3 years ago. Kobe won a title 2 years ago, that’s the last year an argument for Bryant over Wade would have made sense. Now you just sound like a homer whose stuck in the past.

• jarrett Posted: Oct.23 at 5:28 pm
  so what your saying is, because the rest of the Magic roster sucks, Dwight has to be the #2 player in the game?? Bottom line is you guys have to put things in perspective. Dwight Howard has yet to average over 23 points a game. Shaq avgerage that his rookie year. So if u guys wanna cry all day and crown dwight howard as some dominant force then crown him.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 5:29 pm
  And Kobe is as much the reason they almost left those Olympics with a silver as he is why they left with a gold. He tried his very hardest to shoot them out of that championship game, and he almost succeeded. Everyone who actually watched those Olympics Knows Melo and Wade were the best players on the team during that competition. So it’s better for you and your argument to drop that subject.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 5:30 pm
  @Andrew Woods – I think that you only think that about Dirk because of the playoffs. Be honest. He has always been great player, but no one took the Mavs seriously and you know it. I’m not real big on stats because they don’t tell the whole truth. Dirk is not an elite rebounder, his passing has improved, and his defense is alright. He is definitely a better shooter than Kobe, but is that really enough to out weight every other advantage that Kobe has (including the intangible stuff like leadership, softness, etc…). Dirk’s impact on the game doesn’t go far beyond his scoring. Dirk and Durant contribute the same to me, outside of the fact that Dirk has become somewhat unguardable. Yes Wade is closer because of the positions that they play, but Kobe is still better at this point. Trust me

• Louis Posted: Oct.23 at 5:33 pm
  Rose is not better than Dwight, no way at all. The guy brings easily the best defense in the league every night. Look at the rosters he’s had in Orlando over the years: players like rashard Lewis, Hedo turkoglu, Vince carter and Gilbert arenas as his 2nd/3rd options. They are all bad players (at least now, Vince and Gilbert used to be good playing for other teams). It’s insane that Dwight could carry a group like that to a finals, and multiple high-seeded playoff appearances. He is much more valuable to a team than Rose is at the moment, having Rose above him is a joke. Roses time will come, but not yet

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 5:33 pm
  Jarret no the teams roster is not the only reason, & focusing on scoring average means your ignoring the team and system around him. If you watch the Magic you would know Dwight doesn’t get enough touches to average 25 a game, there is more too it then basic statistics. And if he were Shaq he’d be #1 or #2 (more #1 then 2) on this list with LeBron every year and there would be no argument. Shaq is a top 10 player all time, it doesn’t make sense to make him Dwight’s measuring stick, he’ll never measure up.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 5:34 pm
  @nbk – I am certainly not a homer at all. I wasn’t trying to argue for the past. That idiot made the claim that Wade was better in 08, which absolutely insane. Get your facts straight, Kobe won 1 year ago (this is 2011, Lakers won in 2010). So since the Lakers didn’t win this year, Wade is better now? How does that make sense? Championships are a team accomplishment. Wade didn’t lead his team to the promise land this year so does that mean that they are equal now? Use some logic man.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 5:36 pm
  @Jarret – It’s not only about scoring. I have said earlier, Dwight’s rebounding and defense is far superior to Shaq’s. Bill Russell never averaged 20 points in one year. Some still saw him as better than Wilt, even though Wilt was averaging 40+.

• jarrett Posted: Oct.23 at 5:36 pm
  its hard for you guys to argue Dwight Howard is underrated at the #6 spot in the League after his team lost in the 1st round to the Hawks. Yea, he probably should have got the nod at #5 and Rose at #6, but other than that, this ranking is fine.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 5:39 pm
  @nbk – Yes. Wade is more efficient that Kobe shooting wise. Once again, stats lie. That does not make Wade a better than him though. I can’t argue with a person who relies on stats as their main supporter. LOL @ Melo and Wade being the best on the Olympic Team. (Wade didn’t even start).

• Jukai Posted: Oct.23 at 5:43 pm
  Hey guys, what’s going on in this thr– oh god!

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 5:43 pm
  @nbk – What the hell do you mean he hasn’t be asked to guard the best offensive player on the opposing team. We covered this earlier fool. Pippen guarded the best player on the opposing team. Does that make Jordan any less of a defender or player? Wouldn’t you want your best player to preserve his energy? Kobe does guard those kinds of players down the stretch. Watch the games. Also, I remember Kobe stepping up to guard the elite point guards (Westbrook, CP3, Rondo, Deron) who were going crazy on Fisher.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.23 at 5:44 pm
  You know what’s sad?
  This don’t even upset me.
  I know it is wrong, but it doesn’t even phase me.
  This lockout is killing my soul.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 5:44 pm
  I’m aware Wade came off the bench, I watched every game.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 5:47 pm
  @jarret – The MAGIC lost to the Hawks. The BULLS made it to the ECF. With your logic, Jordan wasn’t top 3 in the league after he dropped 63 on the Celtics and still got swept. Winning series and championships are team accomplishments

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 5:47 pm
  Jarred again, the 1st round loss, just like Dwight’s scorig average is more complicated then that. The Magic have nobody to create offense, The Hawks have Horford, Jason Collins (notorious for being the best player in the league defending Shaq in the past and Howard today) and Zaza Pachulia. That’s 18 fouls and 3 very good defenders totake away your teams only real weapon. The Hawks winning that series was visible from pretty far away.

• Andrew woods Posted: Oct.23 at 5:48 pm
  Maniac@ I think sometimes kobe can lead to the detriment of his team. I akways thought dirk was a great player outside of his playoff performance esp since I think it was a lil over hyped

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 5:49 pm
  Kobe didn’t play with Pippen when he stopped guarding premiere offensive players, he was playing with Trevor Ariza. Www that last comment was so stupid I’m done responding to you maniac, your name explains why. Your f*ckin crazy

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 5:50 pm
  @nbk – I guess you guy internet guys who know oh so much about basketball are smarter than the guys who actually play and coach and ref the games. Do you have a personal problem against Kobe that you can’t admit that he is still a top 3 player in the league?

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 5:52 pm
  I still play and coach the game, so unless your trying to say your George Karl then I suggest you shelf the ignorance.

• jarrett Posted: Oct.23 at 5:54 pm
  @Maniac , unlike Dwight, Jordan had the numbers to back up any ranking at that time, whereas Dwight does not! Same thing with Lebron rite now, can’t argue with the facts. Bottom line is Dwight isnt putting up the numbers (esp. points) to warrant anything higher than number 5 on this list. all i’m saying is the whole Defensive presence thing loses its weight when the team that you anchor for loses in the 1st round, and your team is not considered serious contenders. If Dwight howard affected the game defensively so much that it led the Magic to be serious contenders in the East, then he moves up in the top 3 players. Maybe then you could make the case his defense leads to winning. Right now he’s a top 10 player thats good enough to get his team to the playoffs. I’m not saying defense isnt important, but you can’t say his defense gets him in the top 2 if the Magic lose to the Hawks anyway.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 5:54 pm
  @Andrew Woods – I absolutely agree that Kobe sometimes makes decisions that aren’t good for the team. You know who else did that? The same guy you consider to be the greatest. You know who else did that? The same guy that SLAM has ranked as #2 all-time. It’s what players like them do. I don’t agree with their selfish mentality sometimes, but it’s what they do. Take Kobe for who he is or don’t take him at all. That’s how I see it. Not player is perfect. I always thought Dirk was a superb player too. I never considered him better than KG (until his Boston days), but he has always been great.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 5:59 pm
  @nbk – You’re making excuses. Pippen or not. You said that the best player has to guard the other teams best player. I don’t care who Kobe, Jordan, etc… plays with. If I have a great defender on my team, that play will guard the other team’s best player. Fine then. LeBron didn’t guard every team’s best player all the time either. That’s what they had players like Anthony Parker for. Stop making stupid comments and watch your mouth. With the Heat today, if Wade had shut down Rose, instead of LeBron doing it, does that make LeBron any less of a defender or player? Hell no.

• Red Posted: Oct.23 at 5:59 pm
  D. Rose #1 or 2.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 6:02 pm
  @nbk – You my friend are the one with the ignorance. I’ve been stating nothing, but logic AND facts. With the stuff you have been saying, I highly doubt you play or coach anything and if you did… well I guess you would know a little something about bad defense and not winning now wouldn’t you?

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 6:04 pm
  lol

• HEK3 Posted: Oct.23 at 6:08 pm
  That is an incredibly poorly written article. You really could’ve used an editor or, honestly, a good friend to just say, “Look, Dude, back away from the computer and come back with a different take, huh?” That was lofty, confusing, and just stupid.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 6:09 pm
  You can go back and read what I said. I didn’t say anything you can’t go double check. I don’t have any need to prove my basketball merits to you here, those whose opinions I respect know about me

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 6:09 pm
  @jarret – Point taken on the Jordan comment. The point is, you can’t measure defense. There is not accurate stat for defense (there is one for rebounding). That’s why numbers can only go so far. Stats are lies. A player can only do so much. The Magic suck without Dwight. I guess you have to play or coach basketball to truly understand the dominance of a big man like Dwight. Sure all these other guys (Wade, Durant, Rose, Dirk) can score more, but think about all the points that Dwight prevents plus the points that he does produce. It adds up much more than the other guys. That is why a guy like Russell was so important to the Celtics (given that the players around him didn’t suck, unlike the Magic’s case). Dwight is not overrated at all

• datkid Posted: Oct.23 at 6:09 pm
  @maniac shut your mouth. pau gasol is an underrated defender. and honestly he doesn’t have to be kevin garnett dummy.. if you’re a 7 footer and you’re buddy next to you is also a 7 footer, and you’re standing in the paint you will have FAR more of a defensive impact then a 6’6 guard. and while kobe was a great defender for a couple of years the wear and tear on his body is such that, at this point he can’t afford to bring his A game defense every night. so right now bynum and pau are far more important defensively then kobe. these things would be obvious if you had a brain. good day sir.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 6:12 pm
  @nbk – To each his own, but you are an idiot in my eyes. No further discussion between you and I is needed. Maybe we can agree on something else when the other rankings are released. I play and study the game that I love and I find it disrespectful that fools like you make such idiotic claims about it.

• datkid Posted: Oct.23 at 6:12 pm
  and for the record, you idiot they were going to trade bynum for dwight howard. a good defensive anchor for a better one. you see how that works? dumba$$

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 6:17 pm
  I don’t see what’s so crazy about people saying Kobe fell off defensively.
  I really don’t.
  But whatever.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 6:18 pm
  @datkid – You stupid f***. The Magic had already said they weren’t trading Dwight. They were going to trade Bynum for Melo. Kobe actually said he wanted Melo. Do your research. Because Melo wouldn’t guard the State of Liberty, and Pau’s softness + cluelessness (that’s not a word) at times, Kobe would STILL be the defensive anchor. You a** clown.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 6:20 pm
  Haha what idiotic claim did I make? your a maniac, maniac

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 6:21 pm
  I didn’t agree with much of what Maniac was saying but I respected how he handled himself.
  Until he started resorting to personal insults.
  Wack.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 6:22 pm
  @Enigmatic – It’s nothing crazy at all. People just fail to understand that just because you get older, your defensive presence does not magically disappear. See what happened to the Spurs when Duncan got injured this season? See how the Celtics fair without KG? Kobe is the defensive anchor of his team like those guys (whether you wanna believe it or not). His presence goes far beyond what you can measure unless you play or coach the game. He’s only losing athleticism. The COACHES made this pick, not the stupid media. I don’t see how you could wholeheartedly disagree with the whole league of coaches.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 6:23 pm
  @nbk …..

• datkid Posted: Oct.23 at 6:24 pm
  @maniac you’re retarded… are you really going to sit here and act like they’ve been pushing for melo as hard as they were pushing for dwight? I remember reading one story about a possible trade for melo… they’ve been trying to get dwight this ENTIRE YEAR you stupid motherf******

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 6:24 pm
  The argument that Kobe is the defensive anchor is just a misunderstanding. Maniac I hope you mean he is the defensive leader, because that is actually right. But Bynum is the anchor. There is only 1 team in the league whose defensive anchor(s) is not a Big Man, and that’s Miami and only because they have the best help/rotation defense in the league. Bynum and Gasoline are what make the Laker defense consistent, or “stationary” – you take them out the team loses it’s anchors and floats off into an offensive hurricane. Kobe leads the defense vocally, and with his #kobeface, but in no way is he the anchor.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 6:25 pm
  @Enigmatic – I didn’t mean any harm at all. If you read closely, the others called out names first. I just have valid points. I don’t expect everyone to agree because that’s why we have opinions, but some facts can’t be ignored (thanks for respectfully disagreeing).

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 6:27 pm
  The coaches don’t watch every game lol, some of them don’t even fill out there own ballot. If you really are going to use all defense team like there are no politics to it that says everything that needs to be said.

• KH10 Posted: Oct.23 at 6:29 pm
  Wow, I just checked and Dwight only had 3 assists in the entire Atlanta series.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 6:29 pm
  LOL @ #kobeface

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 6:30 pm
  @datkid – No. What I am saying is that for that week or two, it was rumored that the Lakers were gonna try to go for Melo. The Magic kept saying they weren’t trading Dwight. Actually, Melo’s trade rumors were doubled the size of Howard’s. I don’t even know how we got here. Just stfu. The Lakers have not benn gunning for Dwight. The media keeps speculating that Dwight wants to go to LA. Fool. Educate yourself…. a** clown

• datkid Posted: Oct.23 at 6:31 pm
  @maniac anybody who plays basketball knows that centers automatically have a bigger impact defensively then guards… oh and wade isn’t better than kobe? are you out of your mind? wade’s been better then/ on kobe’s level since 08… and was probably slightly better in 09. and wade obviously punked kobe both times they played this year

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 6:33 pm
  @nbk – I guess there has been a misunderstanding because when I say anchor, I mean anchor. I know what I meant when I called Kobe the defensive leader and anchor. My points are valid (Bynum’s inconsistency and Pau’s softness). Without Kobe, they fall apart on both sides of the ball. Without Bynum, Pau plays the 5 AND THEIR DEFENSE MAY NOT BE AS GOOD BECAUSE OF A LOST OF A SEVEN FOOTER, BUT THEY ARE STILL ANCHORED.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 6:35 pm
  @nbk – Let the defensive team be because now you are making stupid claims. End the discussion of the defensive teams please.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 6:39 pm
  The Melo rumors were BS. There was NO TRUTH to them whatsoever. I thought you were a student? Or do you just read ESPN? Kobe and Melo are very very close, that is the root of all the pro-Melo comments. Behind closed doors it’s idiotic to believe Kobe really thinks he has a better shot at titles with Melo over Dwight, and Buss would never ever give up Bynum for Melo. I bet he even asks for too much, or values Bynum too highly to get the Howard trade done in a timely fashion, if they don’t miss out on him all together (New Jersey) – and this is documented, you can look it up. There are numerous articles about it.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 6:40 pm
  @datkid – YOU ARE GOING TO TELL ME THE IMPORTANCE OF A CENTER WHEN I HAVE BEEN STRESSING THAT ABOUT DWIGHT THIS WHOLE TIME????? Are you serious? Have you read anything that has been said? Wade played 51 games in 08, and started in 49. No comment. As for 09, Kobe was going to win MVP until LeBron edged him out at the end of the season. Remember? That’s when the debate was Kobe vs. LeBron. Not Kobe vs. Wade or Wade vs. LeBron. Everyone knew Kobe and Bron were the best. They have been the best since then. Wade has always been in their shadow because he is not better than either. Stop making stupid claims.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 6:45 pm
  @nbk – I never said Kobe wanted Melo over Dwight. Kobe said it himself that he would have loved to have Melo on the Lakers (by trade or free agent or whatever is for speculation). How do you know there was no truth? Do you work in the Lakers front office? Obviously not because you would have more respect for Kobe. Mitch Kupchak clearly stated that the roster needed a shakeup so you have no clue to what was done behind the scenes. YOU ARE SPECULATING. Yes I know of Buss’s love for Bynum. I never said the trade would go down. I just repeated what Kobe said.

• datkid Posted: Oct.23 at 6:45 pm
  maniac you dumbf**** there were more rumors about melo’s trade BECAUSE HIS CONTRACT WAS UP. THERE ARE MORE RUMORS ABOUT DWIGHT GOING TO LA THEN MELO YOU JACK@SS. we got here bc you were whining about them not wanting to trade a defensive anchor, and I said they would trade a good defensive anchor for a better one. and if you really think the lakers aren’t gunning for dwight despite what they say, then you haven’t been educated at all…. maybe ever.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 6:47 pm
  You can actually look that up too Maniac, The Lakers defense is actually better without Bryant. Let alone how considerably worse it gets without Bynum. And that is not even looking at how bad it gets without both of it’s defensive anchors (Bynum & Gasol). See the cool thing about some ignorant opinions people try and push as facts, they are actually measurable. Since my (educated-I watch as much Lakers as any non-Laker blowhard) “opinion” that Bynum (and Gasol) is the anchor isn’t enough for you, shouldn’t logical facts do the trick? Yeah, but I’m guessing they won’t.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 6:49 pm
  And no I’m not in the Lakers office, but the guys that are, do, do interviews. Which I read. And from more then 1 source, so I don’t sound like some opinionated maniac.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 6:51 pm
  @datkid – I’m gonna say this one more time: Watch Your Mouth. The Lakers are not going to out of their way to get Dwight like the Knicks did for Melo. They knew he wants to go to LA so they are going to bait him in. No we are here because you f***s don’t understand that Kobe anchors the defense and that getting rid of Bynum would not disrupt (only hinder) the Laker’s defense. Stop talking

• datkid Posted: Oct.23 at 6:55 pm
  @maniac they only thing you have been stressing is your need to gargle kobe’s balls… it’s a shame bc i actually agree with a lot of your points about dirk being overrated after the finals. also cosign nbk on his points about the melo trade and what he said about the lakers 2 7-footers being their defensive anchor. thank you nbk that is literally what I’ve been trying to say this entire time. yeah wade was hurt in 08, I’ll give you that (although you’re still a jack@ss) but in 09 he won a scoring title while remaining more effective on defense and shooting a higher percentage.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 6:56 pm
  @nbk – DEFENSE CAN NOT BE MEASURED. THERE IS NO STAT FOR DEFENSE. Stop bringing me that numbers bulls***. So if the defense is better without Kobe (their leader), who guards the elite perimeter guards? (Notice I said guards because Ron Ron handles the Durants and LeBrons). Surely not Fisher, Shannon, or any other sub-par Laker guard. Don’t question the facts that I state. Facts can’t be questions because they are FACTS. Stats are questionable because they are LIES. I already said the defense is obviously better with Bynum, but that it is not absolutely terrible without him.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 7:01 pm
  Lol ok champ

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 7:01 pm
  @datkid – Or maybe you need to get off Wade’s nuts. I’m not a Kobe homer at all (even though I may come off like that). I just don’t like people making stupid claims because of their personal dislike of him. So I guess Wade was better than LeBron too since he won the scoring title? Shut up. Just shut up. I’m done here because you people are morons. How many guys in the media (besides the idiots who calculate the stats) make the stupid claims that Wade is better? Exactly. Next, how many guys in the media question Kobe’s defense? Exactly.

• datkid Posted: Oct.23 at 7:01 pm
  maniac do you really believe that the lakers wanted melo as bad as they want howard? really? wow….. watch my mouth huh? or what?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 7:06 pm
  @datkid – I didn’t say the Lakers wanted Melo more than Dwight. F***tard! Read! I said Kobe wanted Melo (he didn’t say over Dwight or not). It’s in the Lakers best interest to have Dwight. Idiot.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 7:09 pm
  I can’t wait to see how mad you all will be tomorrow when SLAM ranks Wade #5. I guarantee it…. Isn’t it funny how SLAM has never ranked Wade over Kobe? Haha it’s so amusing.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 7:47 pm
  J.A. Adande, David Thorpe to name 2 non-stats focused analyst off the top of my head, (1) Adande even covers the Lakers full-time. And Thorpe’s opinion is held in high regard by everyone involved with the sport. It’s pretty hard tofind someone who doesn’t use advanced stats now a days though, because it’s proven to be more accurate then basic stats and opinions. You can look that up too. Nobody is arguing Wade is a better player all-time then Bryant that would be absurd. I personally have Bryant as #4, but understand people having him at 3. But the idea that Wade is a better player at those point is widely accepted. And reflected as such by every major publication that covers basketball this summer as well as by numerous scouts and journalist. Slam has already proven that their rankings have an obvious bias towards certain players, nobody (who logically pays attention to the inconsistency of these rankings) will be surprised if Kobe falls anywhere from 2-5.

• Zabbah Posted: Oct.23 at 7:54 pm
  The only good thing about this was the reference to the Eradicator and the four Supermen. We’re going back to some old school comics, like ’93.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 7:58 pm
  Most guy’s opinions who work at ESPN have zero meaning to me. Those guys are buffoons. I have a question, what ranking that ESPN just did cause the most uproar? You got it. Kobe at #7. It got the most attention because most people knew it was unbelievably stupid. Any list with CP3 (second favorite player and love him to death) in the top 5 and Blake Griffin in the top 10 should hold no value. Those guys don’t know what they’re talking about. I don’t have to look anything up because I follow the NBA’s news 24/7. The idea that Wade is a better player is not widely accepted at all. If it were true, Wade would have been on the First Team (instead of Kobe), if his defense was better, he would have been on at least one of the defensive teams (instead of Kobe), and or he would have finished higher in MVP. AT LEAST one of the three. Wade didn’t even beat out Rose so I don’t see any reason for believing that he is oh so better than Kobe. Today, tomorrow, yesterday, or anytime before that. Are those #3 and #4 numbers all-time or right now?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 8:00 pm
  @nbk ^

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 8:09 pm
  Right now. And what does I follow NBA news 24/7 even mean? And would you stop bringing up all defensive teams, honestly your opinion seems less and less informed every time you bring that up. And Wade finished behind Rose in what? MVP voting? Lol

• manu Posted: Oct.23 at 8:14 pm
  i hate kobe wit a passion…but he’s better then wade

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 8:15 pm
  David Thorpe contributes to ESPN, he works for Scouts Inc and runs the pro training center. Basically he is a highy respected scout and trainer. His opinion means a lotore then that of a Music writer and producer. But now that i’ve gone back and read your original argument I would like to apologize for wasting anyone who read this conversations time. You have no idea what your talking about basing your WHOLE argument on all-NBA and defense selections. smh, f*ckin waste of time.

• manu Posted: Oct.23 at 8:16 pm
  wade and durant r the most overrated players in the l right now no questions asked 1.dirk
  2.lebron
  3.howard
  4.kobe
  5.paul

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 8:22 pm
  @Manu – Lol thank you for being honest. I know a lot of people don’t like Kobe and that’s fine. He’s an arrogant, selfish, and cold blooded loner. I know that. I just don’t like when people let that get in the way of them admitting his greatness. I applaud you.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 8:25 pm
  @nbk – I am most certainly not basing my argument on All-NBA teams. I am using it as evidence. My arguments come strictly from what I see with my own two eyes. I don’t see that how if you read nothing of what those guys who base their arguments on stats think, that you could formulate the opinion that Wade is better than Kobe.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 8:25 pm
  And it’s a waste of time because for you to understand how misinformed you are I would or the slam community would have to spend atleast a whole day providing you with various examples and facts that show you those selections tell you about a players overall skill about as much as PPG game do. If Coaches wasted their time judgin every aspect of every player against every other player in the league they would spend almost no time preparing to WIN ACTUAL BASKETBALL GAMES. I used to use things like all-NBA selections and such to support my arguments, until I started posting on slam and got roasted by the original regulars and writers who used to frequent these pages. It took like a year for me to pull myself away from my strongly formed opinion before I realized, sh*t I might be looking at this all wrong. Then I got my own place, league pass, and have been watching too much basketball ever since to be blinded by such meaningless (by themselves) awards.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 8:27 pm
  @Manu – I agree that Wade and Durant are overrated. Wade when he gets rated over Kobe and LeBron. Durant when people prematurely try to place him at the top. Lol we don’t share the opinion that Dirk is the best… because he is not, but he is in my top 5. Wade is better than CP3 though.

• Van City BBall Posted: Oct.23 at 8:28 pm
  for all of u arguing that D12 should be ahead of guys like Durant, Kobe and Rose, heres a question for you..”if u were StanVGundy would u give him the ball in the clutch?”… exactly

• Van City BBall Posted: Oct.23 at 8:30 pm
  btw i like D12 too but just realistically i have to say ^

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 8:33 pm
  Wade is better then Bryant at everything but shooting. Use logic and facts to debate that statement first. Awards aren’t facts, they are based on opinions. (clearly misguided opinions – for example Kobe Bryant on the all-defensive team over Tony Allen – Dwyane Wade). Oh yeah and click my name, go ahead. It’ll make you real happy, it’s from The LA times, and the Laker Blog, if anyone supports Kobe as a defender it’s gotta be them……….right?

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 8:35 pm
  Van City, ask yourself, is a game 3 minutes, or 48? Do players have to play offense & Defense? Even in the clutch? Those questions are more important and will provide a more logical answer.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 8:35 pm
  @Van City – Would you have given Shaq the ball in the clutch? How about Wilt? How about Russell? Centers are not supposed to have the skills of perimeter players. I am most definitely not saying that D12 is on their that super elite level those three guys sucked at free throws and were not considered go to clutch players. That’s not the center’s job.

• UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER Posted: Oct.23 at 8:42 pm
  WHY DO PEOPLE CONTINUE TO FEED TROLLS?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 8:43 pm
  @nbk – I do use logic. How about you try it? And it’s funny because I read that article when it came out. I saw all the stuff about people questioning Bryant’s place on the defensive team. Like you said, it all just opinion’s right? It was the coaches’s (and mine) opinion that Bryant was placed on the All-Defensive Team; it is yours and the LA Times that he should not have been on there (though they said nothing of Wade going on there instead). It is your opinion that Wade is better and it is my opinion that Kobe is better? What you are saying is that we shouldn’t be arguing at all because there is no FACT that you can use to back evidence up…. Except that Kobe is a better shooter… FACT. How can you prove Wade is better at anything? Honestly? No stats because those are lies. The stats suggest that Wade is a better which is plain stupid. So…..?

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 8:46 pm
  People will look at a DHoward piece having 230+ comments and be like WOW! but what they fail to realize is 150 of them are from a crazed maniac.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 8:56 pm
  Better % from the field, more points rebounds assists steals blocks wins. Facts – wade is better.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 9:01 pm
  @nbk – Look I got stuff to do and you’re still talking stats. I’ll maybe hear from you guys again tomorrow when SLAM has Wade at 5. Peace.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 9:03 pm
  And idk why SLAM keeps blocking me from showing the site but check out the 20secondtimeout blogspot. That’s a guy who is close to the NBA and writes about it a lot. Past and present. Real intelligent guy. Check out his archive. Educate yoursef.

• z Posted: Oct.23 at 9:03 pm
  @maniac I just wanna thank you for comin and droppin mad knowledge on these simpletons. They argue bc they are simple minded and don’t understand that bball especially on defense is COMPLEX. Like you keep stressin it goes beyond numbers, and that’s why your posts have been so long-bc its complex. But these cats on the thread are like kids: they can only eat applesauce. You’re coming at em with full apples. Regarding dirk your all time rankings per centers, kobe, $, and pip’s defense I heartily and enthusiastically COSIGN EVERYTHING you’ve posted. My only beef is with your name calling…patience bro you’re smarter than them be patient. I’m real curious how old maniac is and what kinda stats you think wilt would get if he could adjust his 1962 athleicism to todays game. I hope to see more of maniacs name on the threads. Peace.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 9:04 pm
  @JTaylor21 – F*** off

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 9:16 pm
  Haha that 20secondtimeout guy? I’ve read his blog, he’s smart sometimes, like his analyses of the lockout, but judging players? That guy is a moron. Isn’t he the idiot that said Blake Griffin was the best 4 in the league? Lmao you win maniac, you have proven that you know everything. Now go make some music about it. smh

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 9:18 pm
  @Z – This will be my last post for the night. Thanks man so much. I tried to teach guys something, but they don’t listen. Sorry about the name calling, they just ticked me off a tad bit. To be honest, I may not sound like it, but I’m 20 (my mind is far beyond my years). I’ve grew up around the NBA and basketball so I know a lot that casual people fail to understand. As far as Wilt, I’m very confident that he could fit in today’s game (I’m believer that any all-time great could play in any era). Look, the guy has an argument for being the best to play a NBA game (yes even better than Jordan). I highly doubt he would get 50 in one season or 100 in one game, but I’m sure he could maintain his 30 ppg career scoring average (just not the same way he did in the 60s with super high scoring in his first 7 years and lower scoring in the latter 7 years). I’m not big on definitive rankings so I like to think in tiers somewhat. The 3 great centers are in my top 5 all-time along with the 2 greatest shooting guards. Wilt is outright amazing.

• Lz - Cphfinest3 Posted: Oct.23 at 9:21 pm
  3 terrible things happened here today; 1. Dwight’s ranking 2. The article 3. Some maniac named Maniac escaped from the nuthouse. PS: What is ‘hip-hip music’?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 9:22 pm
  @nbk – No he said Dirk is the best 4 in the league. You obviously don’t read him at all because he would never say such a thing. He actually wrote about how crazy the guy (Chris Palmer) was who first made the claim. Educate yourself. No one knows everything. Some are just more informed than others. I’m out.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 9:23 pm
  @Lz – Lol this is my real last comment. *Ahem* ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 9:24 pm
  Putting Kobe in the top 5 all-time? Lol now it is complete. The full circle of ridiculous basketball opinions. Lakeshow wouldn’t even say that nonsense.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 9:28 pm
  Your an idiot. “1) Blake Griffin: “Think it’s too soon to anoint Griffin? His talent, skill and numbers say otherwise.” 2) Dirk Nowitzki: “We’re all still buzzing about the Mavericks’ championship march, but after a thorough inspection of Nowitzki’s skills, he simply doesn’t have enough of an all-around game to pry the top spot from Griffin.” 3) Amare Stoudemire: “Stoudemire can flat-out fill it up, and after nine seasons is still the most explosive scorer from the 4.” 4) Kevin Love: “Love surprisingly has the highest player efficiency rating (24.39) on this list and improved his rebounding by a whopping four boards per game.” 5) Pau Gasol: “I won’t sit here and try to pretend that the dismal postseason during which Gasol was a virtual nonfactor–with averages of 13 points and 7.8 rebounds on 42 percent shooting–isn’t affecting his place in these rankings.”"

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 9:29 pm
  My bad I am an idiot.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 9:29 pm
  @nbk – I leave you with this. Any great basketball player who has his prime after 1999 will forever be compared to MJ. I don’t think there will ever be a player who can touch his legacy subjectively (unless LeBron goes on a rampage for the next 8 years) because people have a hard time separating opinion from fact. Kobe is hated by so many people and it is too difficult for them to accept the truth. Ignoring stats & accomplishments [(because both are dependent on their different situations (Jordan was given the keys from the get-go while Kobe had to earn them, Kobe was a champion with Shaq in his earlier twenties while Jordan became one in his late twenties with Pippen, different rules, defenses, etc...)] , is Jordan a better player than Kobe? If he is, it’s by a very small amount and anyone with unbiased eyes can see that. Because Kobe played after 1999, he has little chance of being argued as the greatest because Jordan has been given that title. Think about it: before Jordan, there was no real “greatest” because some people favored one of the centers, knew Baylor and Erving were the best forwards, and Oscar and West were the best guards. No player had it as good as Jordan because there was no universal greatest. Even when Magic & Bird took the league by storm, everyone was not convinced on a single greatest. Therefore, they had a better chance of getting their name etched into that #1 spot. Now that Jordan sits up there comfortably (in most people’s eyes), Kobe has a very small chance of creating this giant legacy that Magic, Bird, and etc. have because MJ’s legacy is like one big shadow over every player who dares to be considered great. That’s the real truth to why Kobe’s legacy has not blown up like it should have. Forget Jordan ever existed, ignore his influence on Kobe, and just place Kobe’s game and career into the late 80s and 90s and tell me that he would not be bigger in most people’s eyes. Because I believe Jordan to be a slighty better overall than Kobe, I don’t think Bryant would have achieved as much as Jordan (actually I take that back because Kobe’s scoring records are just as impressive as Mike’s, they both have had bad documented off-the-court issues, and both are incredibly marketable). Kobe would have achieved more than he has now if he were given the opportunity. That is why he is top 5 over Magic & Bird. For the same reasons Jordan are. Peace

• Lz - Cphfinest3 Posted: Oct.23 at 9:31 pm
  @nbk: Educate yourself Kobe is the defensive anchor of the US Army and the whole world (shaking my head at the level of the once great SLAM-online, both the quality of the articles and the commentator-section leave a lot to be desired these days. Sadly.).

• Jukai Posted: Oct.23 at 9:33 pm
  How does a person like Maniac exist in real life? Jesus… Kobe is the anchor on defense?
  Had me lolling.
  Someone doesn’t know what anchor means.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 9:33 pm
  His assertion of Bryant isn’t wrong, but he doesn’t take into account that judging a player isn’t about what he can do for one play, or one game. It’s about their overall impact on a whole season/playoffs. Wade was more effective more consistently then Bryant. This ist a ranking of player skill, if it were Bryant would be #1 and Wade would be like #8, it’s about effectiveness over the course of a season. Which wade is proven to be better at, at this point in their careers.

• z Posted: Oct.23 at 9:39 pm
  Maniac definitely got a good mind for the game and perspective on the all time rankings. Objectivity is vital when trying to judge better\best and few ppl can maintain it so just try to be objective and fair but keep in mind that learning never stops so stay open minded. Unfortunately objectivity runs in short supply around here (kinda a microcosm of the USA) and the reasonable and intelligent get forced to be extremist and often get frustrated with the stubborn and subjective at which point you get namecalling. This is the maturity level of americans in the communications age.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 9:40 pm
  Well I mean, dude is 20. Makes sense now.
  We all thought we knew everything back then.
  Maniac isn’t nearly as bad as some other cats that are/were on here, but his unwillingness to listen to people who have no doubt been watching and perhaps playing the game a lot longer than him makes him suspect.
  That and claiming to know more about 60′s, 70′s and 80′s players than his peers, the whole “In recent years, the younger generation has gone back and seen Hakeem’s YouTube videos and stats and seem to overrate him ALOT” irked me cause, dude IS the younger generation.
  When I started watching NBA, dude wasn’t born yet.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 9:41 pm
  It’s not about what skills you have you incompetent dope. It’s about what you do with those skills. Kobe isn’t “slightly” worse then Jordan all-time, he is clearly worse. What a f*ckin idiot, I wish lakeshow was here so he could handle you and make you happy at the same time. I am a Kobe fan, but I’m not an idiot. And I won’t let Mr 20secondtimeout I don’t know what the word productive means brainwash me either. And I leave you with this gem “Bryant’s minutes and health will have to be monitored carefully by the Lakers for the rest of his career but he is still the league’s best, most productive and most complete shooting guard.”

• Megatron Posted: Oct.23 at 9:43 pm
  Thanks Maniac, you just wasted a half hour of my time. I should have stopped reading after realizing you think that NBA 1st team all defense is a credible source for proving your point. Most people that pay attention to basketball know that is just a reputation thing

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 9:44 pm
  Oh he’s 20, explains everything. Good work Matic. I was the EXACT same way lol

• Tempest Posted: Oct.23 at 9:45 pm
  Slams Top 5
  1. Lebron
  2. Kobe
  3. Durant
  4. Rose
  5. Wade

• Megatron Posted: Oct.23 at 9:45 pm
  reputation/popularity

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 9:52 pm
  Yup, check his 9:18 comment/response to Z’s earlier love letter to him.
  Sorry Z, must be that old “maturity level of americans in the communications age”….thing.

• Megatron Posted: Oct.23 at 9:54 pm
  my top 5 is
  1.Lebron
  2.Dwight
  3.Wade
  4.Kobe
  5.Durant

• Dagger Posted: Oct.23 at 9:54 pm
  @ Vancity: that’s a silly argument, and I suspect you know it. Clutch performance is just one element of a player’s worth. If you were Stan, would you ever trade Howard for any of those guys? Of course not.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 9:56 pm
  Oh haha, I saw how Z had been sired so I just zoned that conversation out. Once he said Kobe was top 5 all time his ability to judge that past had become completely irrelevant. A real student of the game wouldn’t dare say something that ignorant without a legitimately genius reason. I have read/heard every possible explanation for Kobe’s greatness, and that is just to get him in the top 10. Which imo he is still right outside of. 11 or 12

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 9:58 pm
  @Enigmatic & everyone else – Sorry just came back one more time to see what people had to say about me lol. It’s not that I think I know everything. I don’t know how old you guys are either (some could be pretending about their age, I’m just being real), but that’s not important. I’ve been playing, watching, and reading about basketball since I was 4. I’m not your average Joe either. I didn’t mean to come off as a know it all and I apologize if I sounded arrogant or offended anyone. Most of the people who I talk to intellectually are much older than me and I have absorbed a lot of knowledge over my measly 20 years. Age is just a number my friend. I know old men who couldn’t make a decent argument if their oxygen tank depended on it. I’m sure that I make seem extreme sometimes (I get that a lot), but I don’t make insane claims like my name may suggest. I use a lot of logic and objectivity as Z stated. 85% percent (a lot of them being my age and/or younger) of the people who watch basketball have no clue to what they claim and I just bring the facts. If you knew me personally, you would hold me in a higher regard than the rest of my peers. That’s why i used the term “younger generation” because I don’t consider myself to be part of it mentally. I’m not a know it all. I just love to debate. Thanks for entertaining me. Peace.

• z Posted: Oct.23 at 10:05 pm
  Yea I’m not gonna lie matic I figured he must be an old head with mad knowledge you gotta admit the kid made SOME valid points. Plus he was talkin bout young ppl like he’s not a youngster himself. If maniac didn’t have some validity to some of his points he woulda been written off and ignored. But the extremists gotta say “no, he’s only 20 so he’s got nothing to contribute to the conversation!” Then ppl wonder y the youth of USA are so disillusioned and protest.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 10:06 pm
  I could literally go back to the archives and pull out an almost identical explanation of my ignorant arrogance from like 2006/07.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.23 at 10:07 pm
  A bit full of yourself, eh?

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 10:08 pm
  Maniac, you mean well and I applaud you for holding your ground, defending what you believe in, and ummm, for writing correctly as opposed to the usual 19/20 year old “U dunno wut u talkin bout” nonsense.
  But believe me when I tell you, with age does come the ability to reason better with yourself and others and see things from a different perspective.
  Like the all-NBA teams, I always thought the same.
  “They’re NBA coaches, they must know better than us.”
  And yeah, they know a lot more than us about the NBA game, but that still doesn’t always mean the make the best choices for the All-NBA teams.
  I mean, do you really think Larry Hughes deserved it in ’05 just cause he got a lot of steals?
  Or that Anderson Varejao deserved it in 2010?
  Hell, I’m a huge Bulls fan but I’ll even say I didn’t think Noah deserved 2nd team all defense and they shoulda put Loul Deng in there instead.
  @Z – yeah, he did make some valid points, and I credited him with such, but miss me with your point about extremists ruling him out because throughout this whole convo no one knew his age and they were already dismissing a lot of what he was saying

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 10:11 pm
  and @nbk – No real student of the game would dare leave Kobe out of the top 10 without a legitimately genius reason. My opinion is far from irrelevant and believe me, from what I see, my judgement is FAR superior to yours. You guys obviously have something against Kobe so I can’t argue without objectiveness. I’m out for real this time. I’ll be back when SLAM announces Wade at #5.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 10:12 pm
  @Jukai – Y’all shoulda seen me at 20, man.
  I was a Lance Corporal in the Marines, thought I was bulletproof and knew EVERYTHING.
  Couldn’t nobody tell me nothing.
  Oooh, had a temper too. A Napoleonic complex really. lol
  If I could, I’d go back and slap myself.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.23 at 10:18 pm
  Enigmatic: Damn man, you’re unbearable now, I don’t know how I woulda been able to deal with ya at 20!

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 10:19 pm
  @Enigmatic – I understand the whole age thing. I’m a sonny son. I know. I wasn’t claiming that the coaches know everything. I was simply using evidence. After all, we are all arguing opinions at the end of the day. I believe the coach’s opinions hold more merit than the guys who sit and crunch numbers all day, but neglect to watch the game, and better yet… play it. That’s all I’m saying. I would never use someone else’s opinion to validate my own. I formulate with my own two eyes and brain and then find decent evidence of people who agree with me. That’s all I was doing. I don’t agree with everything the coach’s do and say. It goes beyond that man. Maybe I used the wrong evidence this time around

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 10:20 pm
  Dude I hate saying this, my dogs name is Kobe. I am a Kobe fan. But Jordan, Wilt, Russel, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Robertson, Shaq, Duncan, Are all better no argument that I see makes sense against them. So at best Kobe is 9 – I personally have him behind Hakeem & Moses. But those are personal opinion that I admit can be argued against, convincingly depending on what you value.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.23 at 10:22 pm
  I… don’t have shaq and Moses ahead of Kobe, NBK….

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 10:24 pm
  Just don’t dismiss me because of my age. Thanks Z for respecting that. I’m learning as I get older.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 10:24 pm
  Unbearable?
  Hurt my feelings, why don’t you!
  Nah, it’s all good.
  Yeah, I put Kobe behind all them cats and Olajuwan too.
  Maniac, I don’t think you grasp how dope Hakeem was, man.
  In an era full of hall of fame big men (Ewing, Robinson, young Shaq, Mutombo, etc.) nobody was effin’ with Dream.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.23 at 10:24 pm
  Actually, I have a hard time putting Duncan, Robertson and Olajuwon over Kobe too, but that changes weekly.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 10:25 pm
  onye nzuzu

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 10:26 pm
  Not Moses either.
  Didn’t see that.
  And not in that order.
  Also, most disagree with me, but I still think Karl Malone is the greatest PF of all time, he just didn’t win the rings to back that up.
  Tarzan HATES when I say this, but Duncan and them wouldn’t have won in the Jordan era, either.
  Sorry, LOCKOUT CAPS LOCK KING.
  We good, right?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 10:28 pm
  @nbk – Jordan, Wilt, Russell, and KAJ are obvious, but how are you so convinced that Magic, Bird, and Oscar are “better” (if that’s the right word)? And Kobe has legit case over Shaq and Duncan easy man come on. That’s just a matter of case. Most people are comfortable with saying Kobe is the best player post-MJ.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 10:28 pm
  Jukai, Lol whatever your opinion on this stuff is about as consistent as your attendance in these conversations, You gonna have to actually make sense of that rather then just say it.

• big_ticket Posted: Oct.23 at 10:29 pm
  dwight aint top4??

• Dagger Posted: Oct.23 at 10:29 pm
  Maniac, you realize that almost all of your arguments were grounded on a totally subjective reading of current player “skill” and popularity, right? A solid “objective” argument would be more likely to incorporate advanced statistics which, while always subject to interpretation, are nevertheless more reliable as an indicator of current production than, for example, all-NBA teams or career accomplishments. I know you’re 20, but since you said your “mind is far beyond my years” I trust you can understand that. I feel dirty having read through this whole debate.

• z Posted: Oct.23 at 10:31 pm
  Point taken matic. Props to you my dude when I think of legit FANS of specific TEAMS its you eboy and BETcats, and unlike those two you’ve continued to grace us. Plus you don’t just ride your teams nuts that gets you credibility in my eyes. Bottom line, I think extremism either way (for or against kobe, or in politics on any topic) only serves to drag the limits of reasonable debate to more extreme and thus less tenable positions. And it aint extreme to argue kob for top ten ever status. Kid might be goin too far in sayin kob’s top 5 but not by much and its understandable that he’d be a little extreme considering how nuts ppl get bout kob, but basically I think if $’s number 1 then kobe is DEFINITELY top 10. I just don’t see how one could judge them both objectively and conclude otherwise.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.23 at 10:32 pm
  Enigmatic: well, in my opinion, Malone was partially so great because of Stockton… Duncan was great cause of himself.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 10:32 pm
  @Enigmatic – I love Dream don’t get me wrong, but come on. Take emotion out of it and be honest. No one ever really placed Olajuwon in that top 5 consideration. Like I said earlier, he isn’t an easy stamp on everybody’s top 10. I disagree with the Malone over Duncan, (but I can admit that Duncan gets extra props just for winning 4 rings).

• z Posted: Oct.23 at 10:32 pm
  Point taken matic. Props to you my dude when I think of legit FANS of specific TEAMS its you eboy and BETcats, and unlike those two you’ve continued to grace us. Plus you don’t just ride your teams nuts that gets you credibility in my eyes. Bottom line, I think extremism either way (for or against kobe, or in politics on any topic) only serves to drag the limits of reasonable debate to more extreme and thus less tenable positions. And it aint extreme to argue kob for top ten ever status. Kid might be goin too far in sayin kob’s top 5 but not by much and its understandable that he’d be a little extreme considering how nuts ppl get bout kob, but basically I think if $’s number 1 then kobe is DEFINITELY top 10. I just don’t see how one could judge them both objectively and conclude otherwise. Especially if you’re judging by the same criteria. I’d be interested in matics definitive opinion on $ and kobe since I know you saw $ up close and are pretty dam reasonable bout kob…

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 10:35 pm
  @Dagger – Stats are not objectivity. They don’t tell the whole story. Some, but not all. I’m not gonna get into that again because the discussion went nowhere. Some people are big on stats, others aren’t. I happen to be part of the latter. I don’t go off popularity either. My arguments are far from subjective.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 10:39 pm
  @Z – Maybe putting Kobe top 5 is a tad extreme, but I explained so earlier and it makes sense. I just think that if Kobe were not compared to MJ so much, his legacy would be more respected. That’s all. No other super legendary player has ever had to be constantly measured to a all-time great player of the past.

• Jeremy Posted: Oct.23 at 10:39 pm
  Your incoherent and rambling compilation of miserable metaphors and impossible to deduce analogies has no doubt revealed your top 50 player ranking to be by far the worst. What did I just read? What the hell did I just read?

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 10:39 pm
  Like I said I understand the argument against Moses. Not Shaq or Duncan though, you can’t hitchhike on a guy for more then half your titles, watch him win one with an inferior 2nd banana (and team) right when he left, and say he’s better then the only guy that beat those two. Kobe only won 1 MVP, never proved he could win without another all star bigman. Basically his horrible track record as a leader prevents him from being in a discussion with those other 8 guys. I am not talking about skill, if this Was about Skill Kobe would
  Be top 3, but it’s about production and winning when you talk about all-time. At his best Kobe was one without the other. Atleast without the other in terms of top 8 all-time, not being great he was always great.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 10:41 pm
  The King of Subliminals strikes again and Shaq/TD have a great case to be ranked over Kobe (I won’t even waste my time explaining why Bird/Magic/BigO are better than Kobe)

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 10:41 pm
  Props for the props, Z.
  Personally, I think Kobe is arguably top 10 also.
  My opinion on Jordan/Kobe is…man, I actually started typing that up but it was a lot to type so I gave up. Ha ha.
  Jukai – That’s a bit unfair, I couldn’t even begin to argue otherwise since Malone only had one Stockton-less season.
  We’ll never know if Stockton made Malone better or if he would’ve been that nice on his own.
  @Maniac – not top 5, but I can definitely see top 10.
  The only ones who should be a “lock” for top 10 are Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Bird and Magic, IMO.

• James Posted: Oct.23 at 10:42 pm
  how is dwight howard better then Dirk that is insane

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 10:44 pm
  Wait, I’m lost…
  Who’s the King of Subliminals?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 10:44 pm
  @Enigmatic – You’re sleeping on Kareem man. He is sure as hell of a lock as those five you named.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.23 at 10:45 pm
  Enigmatic; Well, they’re both incredible talents but it is fair to say they both made each other better, ya know?
  NBK: I’m far too lazy to explain my situation. Maybe later. My bad, haha.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 10:45 pm
  @Engimatic – He’s referring to me. Please ignore him. He’s knocking for ranking Kobe over Shaq and Duncan.

• Otero Posted: Oct.23 at 10:49 pm
  He has to be top 5 at least. He has 3 straight DPOY

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 10:50 pm
  I think Malone would have done just fine without Stock’s services. The guy was an athletic marvel in his younger days (think less athletic BGriff), had a great mid-range in the latter parts of his career, a great rebounder (for the first decade of his career), an underrated passer, a good defender, one of the best all-time at getting to the line and the most durable superstar of all-time (played 1471 out of a possible 1476 career games). He would have been just as great with a serviceable PG next to him.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 10:51 pm
  @nbk – You’re being biased against Kobe. How did he hitchhike on Shaq? So I guess Kareem hitchhiked Magic for more than half of his titles? And Wade hitchhiked Shaq for his 1 title? And West hitchhiked Wilt for his one title? And Oscar hitchhiked Kareem for his one title? The list goes on. Championships are team accomplishments and the fact is that most championship teams have two superstars. Then how can you bring up the MVP argument? You guys just bashed me for using All-NBA teams, but you can use MVP’s which are voted by the media (Shaq has 1 too by the way and so does Oscar and Hakeem)? You can’t have your cake and eat it. And of course it’s not skills because I’ve said all along that big men and perimeter players can be compared in terms of skills.

• z Posted: Oct.23 at 10:52 pm
  @maniac the one thing I disagree with you on (kinda) is dream. Dude was easily the best center of a golden age for the position. I think you got a good understanding of where he ranks all time and what makes him more compelling to watch than other great centers but you are undervaluing his dominance at his peak imo. Which is easy to do considering you woulda been 4 at his peak. For dream to be (somewhat) overrated by the younger generation is natural–we put a high emphasis on aesthetic value of a player in which dreams the best pivot maybe ever. Its also partly why some think kob might be better than $-aesthetically he’s dam near as pleasing.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 10:55 pm
  @JTaylor21 – I disagree. I think Malone owes something to Stock. Yes he would still be an all-time PF, but Malone’s scoring record has just as much to do with Stock’s assist record. They benefited from each other. I think it’s reasonable to say that Stock made Malone a tad bit better than he was (and vice versa).

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 10:58 pm
  I mean, he gets credit for 3 of his titles in the same fashion that Shaq does, when really he should get credit for those titles in the same fashion that Scottie Pippen did. Hitch-hike was the wrong word.

• Tae Posted: Oct.23 at 11:01 pm
  I have to apologize to Kobe, how soon they forget…smh. And to tha people saying Wade is better than Kobe or has been better since 08, go jump off a cliff

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:02 pm
  @Z – Oh no I got a ton of respect for Dream. Hell yeah he was easily the best center of the 90s and dare I say the late 80s as Kareem was reaching for the big 40. I will go as far as to say that Hakeem’s peak is probably higher than any other center (I think I should have bit my tongue, but someone could make that argument). I’m not saying that Dream was a pushover, I’m just saying that he is not automatic top 10. Top 15, no doubt, but top 10 can go a lot of different ways. He is on the same shelf as Shaq and Duncan imo. And I would never say that Kobe is better than MJ. No way in hell. I think you expect more sense from me than that. I said I think Kobe ranks over every perimeter player not named Jordan, but to each his own.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 11:03 pm
  I personally have Hakeem in the Top-5 (3rd). The man is easily the greatest two-way player of all-time. He’s in top-10 all-time in 8 different statistical categories, he destroyed the toughest competition a center has ever faced in a 15-month span and carried the Rockets to 2-straight chips as their only all-star selection.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:05 pm
  @nbk – Shaq would not have won the 3 in LA without Kobe. Be serious. They were probably the best 1-2 punch of all-time. Shaq dominated and Kobe closed. No player gets all the credit for a ring. It’s a team thing. If you play a major role in the title, you get some credit.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 11:05 pm
  Maniac, the seasons after Shaq left and before Pau arrived the Lakers won 34 games, 45 games, and 42 games.
  So while nbk may have taken it too far saying he hitchhiked on Shaq, the fact remains he wasn’t able to prove he could win without a dominant big man.
  Take a look at the sorry supporting casts LeBron had at Cleveland, and dude led them to four 50-plus win seasons during his time there, 2 60-plus win seasons.
  A team where Mo Williams and Zydrunas Ilgauskas are your second and third best players is NOT supposed to win 66 games.
  Meanwhile, Kobe couldn’t crack 35 wins with a team that had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom as his two sidekicks.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:07 pm
  @Tae – Thank you that somewhat agrees with me against the nonsense of people asserting that Wade is better than Kobe. Even since 08. Just nonsense.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 11:08 pm
  I used MVP’s because if a player is clearly better then everyone else and his team actually wins he’ll win the award, to show it wasn’t that often Kobe put the two together. I’m not saying steve Nash is better then Elgin Baylor, it’s just evidence that his greatness wasn’t top 5 dominant, as he rarely was the dominant player in his own generation. I admit, his teams in 05 and 06 screw up his legacy, but he didn’t do much but be selfish in the meantime, which doesn’t help. (and I’m not talking about his play on the court when I call him selfish)

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 11:08 pm
  Wade was absolutely better than Kobe last year.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:08 pm
  @JTaylor21 – So people killing me for putting Kobe higher than they would, but you get away with putting Dream #3 all-time. No comment.

• Kevin Posted: Oct.23 at 11:09 pm
  i usually try and be supportive of everything in general.. but this was a pretty terrible writeup. doesn’t reflect well on this site or the magazine.. i don’t even care about Dwight Howard’s placement in these rankings after reading this s***

• z Posted: Oct.23 at 11:13 pm
  The greatest two way player ever was $, I thought?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:15 pm
  @Enigmatic – Come on man. Magic never won without Kareem. Bird never won without a dominant inside presence either. Same goes for Oscar and West. That is nitpicking. It’s a team game. Jordan didn’t win until Pip stepped up and though that may not be an inside presence, two of the best five wings is good enough (Bron and Wade). (Plus D-Rod is one of the five best rebounders of all-time so that helps for the 2nd Bulls run. As far as LeBron, his Cavs supporting cast was way better than Kobe’s 05-07 supporting cast. Be real. The Cavs were based on defense, rebounding, and a one man offense (like the Bulls and the Bulls cracked 60 this year). That’s like saying a team with Boozer and Deng is NOT supposed to win 60 games. Why not if the rest of the team is solid? Does Roes contribute more than Kobe?

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 11:16 pm
  Shaq won a title with Dwyane Wade, with an over the hill roster, Shaq was gonna win titles if LA traded Kobe for Tracy McGrady. As far as I see it. Shaq is underrated if you think he’s not better then Kobe all-time, smh, doesn’t Slam have him as #4? I think that’s a little high but y’all are crazy with this talk. And Shaq was winning that first title with Eddie Jones, it didn’t matter. Kobe was a non-factor in a few of those playoff games – even Won a finals game when he left in the 2nd quarter with a bum ankle.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 11:19 pm
  @ Z- I think it’s a toss-up in terms of who was most dominant on both sides of the floor between Jordan and Hakeem.
  Jordan maintained his dominance on the offensive side, to a smaller degree, all the way to the end, averaging 20 per at 39 years old.
  BUT, Hakeem was still able to average 1.5 blocks and 1.2 steals per at age 39, playing only 22 minutes a game.
  @Maniac – Are you trying to say Luol Deng and Carlos Boozer are comparable to Z and “Mo Gotti”?

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 11:19 pm
  Cuz I explained my position (facts to back it up) and it’s basically a personal preference (I feel that the Dream would destroy any center in history and do a good job slowing them down on the defensive end).

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:21 pm
  @nbk – You’re nitpicking man. Let’s use the age philosophy then that you guys tried to use against me. If you are 60-70 years old, you are old enough to have witnessed all the players and nitpick everything that they did. Only then could you fairly judge a player and all his mishaps because you saw it ALL. Kobe’s legacy is knocked because most people who talk about the stuff are old enough to fully comprehend his career and at least compare it to the players of the 90s. That’s it. Everyone else can only nitpick Kobe and not know of all the silly things you could have said about past players. Nobody is perfect and believe it or not, those past players have shortcomings that you may not take into account because you weren’t old enough to absorb everything.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:23 pm
  @Z – Claims that JTaylor21 are making are the reasons that I might give Hakeem some slight. He is severely overrated. That’s what I’m talking about.

• Tae Posted: Oct.23 at 11:25 pm
  @Maniac no problem. Im one of tha few who still thinks Kobe is tha best to this day. People talk about em like he’s Brett Favre or somethin (trust me im a Vikings fan) and he’s no where near that banged up. Like i said earlier ima put my money on Kobe over any of these dudes

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 11:26 pm
  But I’d have to give the edge to MJ cause Hakeem wasn’t effin’ with Jordan on the offensive side, at the end of the day.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 11:27 pm
  MJ had the benefit of Pip developing into a defensive monster that he didn’t to check the best offensive player each night while Hakeem didn’t have that luxury. He had to be the rockets defensive “anchor” (there goes that word again) from day one and dominated both ends of the floor.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 11:27 pm
  Noone is saying Shaq won by himself, or would have won with just anybody. This is a conversation about the top 10 errr 8 errr 5, whatever, players of all time, if a guys greatest accomplishments were not even as the best player on his own team, what are you really gettig at? The only way you can place Kobe in this conversation is by placing a premium on his championships, if you don’t he looks like Bernard King with an MVP award. Saying he’s top 20 – 15 – 10 is HUGE praise, far from any sort of hating. Putting him above that, or in the top 5 is to blow off actual production and leadership. Like saying he’s better then Oscar Robertson or Magic Johnson. Saying he’s better then them is like saying you don’t care what era or city they played in, it’s like saying the league has competitive balance, and playing in LA is in no way better then playing in Milwuakee, or that 5 championships in the 80′s is the same as the post Jordan 2000′s.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:27 pm
  @Enigmatic – No I’m not trying to compare the players. Even though none are legit all-stars. Boozer made it because Deron made him look better than he was and the same for Mo and LeBron. I’m saying that Rose and Bron had better supporting casts than Kobe had from 05-07. Same reason Wade got nowhere after 06. Wade didn’t get out of the first round until Bron took his talents to South Beach. Everyone needs help

• Jukai Posted: Oct.23 at 11:28 pm
  I’m not sure if Dream could destroy Chamberlain… a guy who was known not to bite for fakes and was hard to out muscle.
  That being said, I’m not sure if Chamberlain could do much good against Hakeem.
  My position, briefly: In my opinion, Shaq and Kobe are very close. At height, Shaq was more valuable than Kobe… he was truly an offensive force. However, that was short lived, and when he was that offensive force, his rebounding and defense simply weren’t up to par than when he was a more active, but less offensive center anchoring the Magic. The issue with Shaq that people don’t want to admit is that the top of the top for him defense and rebounding wise was in Orlando, and the top of the top for him offense wise was in LA… and after that, Shaq dropped fast.
  Kobe, for all his flaws, has pretty much been solid. Insane offense, great isolation defense, decent passing (but an unwillingness to do it) and good rebounding numbers for a guard. His defense dropped a bit faster than his offense, but there’s no hyperbole like there is with Shaq, where Shaq clearly sacrificed defense and rebounding to simply be an outstanding offensive juggernaut.
  Not to mention, that one extra championship Kobe has means a lot. In my mind, Shaq got two championships by himself, one “tied” with Kobe, and one piggybacking Wade…. Kobe got two championships by himself, one “tied” with Shaq and two piggybacking Shaq…. That, in my mind, gives Kobe a step up.
  Ya dig?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:29 pm
  @Tae – I have no problem saying LeBron is better than Kobe and maybe Dwight, but it stops right there. Saying Wade is better than Kobe is similar to what people did to Jordan and Drexler in the early 90s.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 11:29 pm
  Enigmatic, no one in history’s effin with MJ on the offensive end (expect for Wilt) but at the same time, no one’s effin with Hakeem on the defensive end.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 11:29 pm
  All this is moot cause at the end of the day DeMar DeRozan is gonna be the best player EVAR!!!!!!
  Hi, ZOGS!

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:31 pm
  @Enigmatic – I can’t believe you’re entertaining comparing MJ to Hakeem.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:32 pm
  @JTaylor21 – Bill Russell would like a word with you. I agree with Jordan and Wilt on offense.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 11:36 pm
  @Maniac – Kobe’s 34-38 team was horrible, but not THAT horrible that it would excuse them losing 32 more games than LeBron’s 66-16 team.
  Again, check the rosters.
  @JTaylor – Hakeem over Bill Russell defensively? I agree, Hakeem was a beast on D, admittingly haven’t seen enough Russell though.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 11:36 pm
  The comparisons between MJ and Clyde were foolish and an attempt by the media to draw up even more support for an already popular Finals while the Kobe vs Wade debate is a legit one and has been since 08 (also Wade played 75gms in 08 not 51).

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 11:37 pm
  Maniac, MJ > Hakeem, but what JTaylor and I are debating is who of the two contributed the most on both sides of the court.

• Mackdaddy Posted: Oct.23 at 11:40 pm
  Dr.J > Kobe

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 11:42 pm
  Enigmatic, exactly. All I know about Russell’s defensive exploits are from hear-say and word of mouth. Even though I believe he was an all-time great defensive player, there aren’t stats out there to back it up. So I’m going off the numbers and the numbers tell me that Hakeem was able to do things on the defensive end that no player in history could.

• Otero Posted: Oct.23 at 11:45 pm
  Shaq is def top 10 of all time. Dream might come right after shaq and Duncan. Top 7 as you all were saying is undisputable Jordan, russel, wilt, Kareem, Kobe, magic, bird, (8-10) big o, Duncan, and shaq. There is a difference between talent and greatness. David Robinson was more athletically gifted and did things Duncan can never do like score 74 Pts. (don’t quote me on that but its in the 70s. Feel me). Right now the top 10 ten in the league slam got down packed. The positions in which they are situated lack seriousness. Top 3 Lebron, kobe, dwight(idontgiveaf***whatyasay),(4-6 eitherway(rose,wade,Durant), cp,dirk,melo,dwill(period). Durant at this point in his career can be compared to an early iverson who exploded on the scene. But Durant has the team and all the hype of a future dynasty via layedout.
  Im a Knicks fan, a childhood bulls and magic fan, fav team is the thunder(if u know the dif between fan and fav), favorite player is Chris Paul. I hate the lakers.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.23 at 11:46 pm
  I’ll throw out my top-20 so I can get some criticism too… remember, this is “greatest” player and not “best” (so longevity, championships, impact on the league… that all counts!)
  Jordan, Abdul-Jabbar, Magic, Chamberlain, Russell, Bird, Olajuwon, Robertson, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, West, Erving, Havlicek, Malone, Malone, Thomas, Barry, Stockton, and Garnett.
  That’s a rough list though. Obviously more interchangeable the further you go out.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 11:47 pm
  JTaylor, so do you think Dwight Howard is not nearly as good defensively compared to Dream, or that the rules of the day restrict him from being a better defender?
  I always thought Howard’s D was overrated and couldn’t eff with Dream’s defense but then got to thinking perhaps he’s being held back?
  Would Olajuwon be able to put up an ABSURD 4.6 blocks per AND 2.1 steals per today (if he was in his 20′s) like he did in ’89-’90?

• Tae Posted: Oct.23 at 11:48 pm
  This is getting crazy. Melrose Foxxx. Props if u know who im talkin about

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 11:48 pm
  Also, I saw him completely neutralize one of the greatest players of all-time and newly crowned MVP DRob in the 94 Playoffs. Many fail to realize just how great DRob was in his prime but on that faithful 6-gm stretch, he was Tina and Hakeem was Ike.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:49 pm
  @Jukai – I agree with you with Kobe over Shaq, but the championship argument is kind of flawed. I see what you are saying though

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:50 pm
  @nbk – You just have some problems against Kobe that you need to work out

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:51 pm
  @JTaylor21 – Let the Wade argument R.I.P. Agree to disagree. And Wade played 51 in the 08 season. Look again homie

• Jukai Posted: Oct.23 at 11:52 pm
  Maniac: When I’m talking “best” player, I’ll downplay the championships. When I’m talking “greatest” then you have to look at the championships. I know a lot of that is luck, but them the ropes.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:52 pm
  @Enigmatic – I see what you’re saying, but he is overrating Hakeem. I would not dismiss Russell so easily either

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:53 pm
  @Mackdaddy – LOL at Dr. J over Kobe. I love Doc though.

• Megatron Posted: Oct.23 at 11:53 pm
  does anyone happen to know the highest comment total ever for slamonline? just wondering

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 11:55 pm
  Wade played 51 games in ’07-’08, and 75 in ’08-’09, so it depends on which “’08″ season y’all are talking about.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.23 at 11:56 pm
  @Megatron – a lot more than this. Over a thousand, I think, back in the old days pre-Enigmatic.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.23 at 11:57 pm
  Engimatic, while DHoward is a great defender (by today’s standards), he’s not in the same league as Hakeem. He’s a great athletic and that helps him get to balls *pause* that few can but he lacks elite shot-blocking skills in my opinion. I mean Deke, Eaton and to a lesser extent Hakeem weren’t world class athletes like Howard is but those guys knew all the right angels and timing it takes to disrupt every shot, Howard doesn’t. Even 6-10 ZO’s a better defender and shot-blocker than Howard. Also, I dare someone to use the “too many fouls called on big men today” excuses because Hakeem was avg. 4+ fouls early in his career.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:57 pm
  @Otero – Man you agree with me down to the punch. I agree with your top 7 all-time completely and I been stressing that whole time. I got Oscar at #8 and 9-10 is a toss up for West/Doc/Baylor/Shaq/Dunca/Hakeem. We also agree completely on the top 10 for right now. Bron/Kobe/Dwight is 1-3. Wade/Durant/Rose is 4-6, but I have no problem putting Dirk in that group too. My 8-10 is CP3/Melo/Deron. Funny because you hate the Lakers, but their one of my two favorite teams and CP3 is my 2nd favorite player. Thanks for adding some knowledge to the discussion.

• nbk Posted: Oct.23 at 11:58 pm
  I have no problem with Kobe whatsoever.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.23 at 11:59 pm
  @Jukai – Solid top 20. Top 14-20 is highly debatable. Is that the order?

• niQ Posted: Oct.24 at 12:00 am
  1) Would’ve at LEAST expected Dwight to be top 5.
  2) I’m more surprised of the fact this thread reached 350+ comments.. ON A SUNDAY!

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 12:00 am
  “the pre-Enigmatic days” must have been in the 50s, right? Old-a** nuckka (where’s the nerve when you need him)

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 12:01 am
  Megatron: A few years ago, when SLAM started this whole top-50 thing (I think before the 08-09 season?), they put Gilbert Arenas over Allen Iverson. I think that thing had comments in the high 400s, and the war of words that raged from that (MY FAULT TOO, MY BAD GUYS) pretty much drove the writers from ever posting here again.
  I once jokingly brought up in a SLAM top-50 two years later and said “HEY MYLES BUT WHY IN 2008 WAS ARENAS OVER IVERSON” and he got really pissed and wrote a nasty message and left.
  It was a sh*t show.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:01 am
  @Enigmatic – I think Dwight is comparable to Hakeem on defense, but Hakeem still wins out because of his footwork, quickness, and superior speed. I said earlier that big men get held back today because the league wants the perimeter players to be dominant, but there is no doubt in my mind that Dwight could hang with the centers of 90s.

• ZOGS Posted: Oct.24 at 12:02 am
  Im a latino piece of sh*t that has nothing better to do but to constantly bring up a ended discusion that occured like 2 weeks ago.
  HI ENIGMATIC

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 12:02 am
  Maniac: It is in my order, but it’s a rough order and I’d switch ‘em around given the debate. I didn’t put much thought into it. As a matter of fact, I feel like I put Karl Malone too high but only because Enigmatic said something about him being as good as Duncan and I felt bad.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:03 am
  @JTaylor21 – Yes D-Rob is underrated. That’s why I feel like Hakeem is overrated at times. So many ppl downplay the centers of the 90s to give more props to Hakeem. Hakeem was easily the best, but no by far.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 12:06 am
  LOL @ JTaylor!
  Man, I been been commenting on here since like early ’09.
  Jukai and nbk been here since Greg Oden’s son (Bill Russell) was playing.
  @Jukai – no wonder Myles will come in here, make a point and then be ghost whenever someone tries to argue with him.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:06 am
  @Jukai – Yeah Malone would fine his way into my top 20. I don’t think he’s better than Duncan though.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 12:07 am
  Wow, ZOGS.
  Way to put race into it.
  P*ssy.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:08 am
  @nbk – It seems like it. Either that or you romanticize the players of the past.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 12:10 am
  Jukai, you’re looking for criticism? Well…here’s some; why do you have Wilt above Hakeem? I understand that he was a beast and all but his playoff numbers are subpar when compared to his RS numbers unlike Hakeem who stepped up his RS ppg avg by 4pts?

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 12:10 am
  I guess everything I ever type on here can be discredited cause I’m Latino.
  A “Latino piece of sh*t”, to be exact.
  I hate E-thuggin but you took it there, ZOGS.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:11 am
  Anybody agree that SLAM will put Wade at #5? They love KD and Rose will start getting the same treatment. Plus, they give Kobe a lot of props so probably expect him to have a great comeback season. Bron will definitely be #1.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:12 am
  @Enigmatic – I’m a black piece of sh*t lol

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 12:14 am
  Enigmatic, ignore him, he’s a wimp behind his keyboard, just don’t even bother.
  Look up SLAMOnline top 50 Gilbert Arenas 17 and just read the comment section. It’s gold. Trust me.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 12:15 am
  F*ck it, guess I’ll just get my B Rabbit on.
  “I’m a Latino piece of sh*t, I say it loudly!”
  And I’m sorry (not really) but when someone says “DeMar DeRozan is better than Paul Pierce CONSTANTLY (not just two weeks ago), I gotta clown that.
  I’m sorry, that’s just stupid.
  It’s clownable. So I’ma clown.

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 12:16 am
  so can i comment on here again or what?

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 12:17 am
  I care about actual production and be the catalyst to championships. Skill level is nice but it doesn’t make you better then someone with better output – Saying Kobe is 12th all-time or whatever it was is still a compliment. He still got 3 to 4 years left in his career.

• Slick Ric Posted: Oct.24 at 12:19 am
  Wow, this just shocked the hell out of me.

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 12:20 am
  whoa i thought i was banned for a while… wow

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 12:20 am
  JTaylor: Chamberlain’s playoff numbers always went down because he had to play the defensive juggernaut known as the Celtics in the playoffs for the majority of it. The Celtics had the personnel to shut everyone down…
  That being said, Chamberlain was better than Hakeem at most parts of the game… offensively, they’re closer than numbers are to be believed, but Chamberlain still has the edge due to insane athleticism. Defense, Hakeem because of his ability to anchor defense off the ball with his blocks and steals… but Chamberlain was still a killer isolation wise, and he got his blocks to boot.
  Chamberlain was just way better with rebounds and assists.
  They have the same number of championships.
  I think you’ve overrating Olajuwon a bit. He was a great two-way player but wasn’t the best of passers, didn’t have a killer instinct until sometime later, and had some attitude problems the beginning of his career (but he was such a ridiculously nice, solemn guy in the end that people have absolutely forgotten that he was a bit of a jerk!).
  Hakeem is criminally underrated but I would not put him on par with Chamberlain.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:21 am
  @nbk – Wow so Kobe being 12th is a compliment. OK!

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 12:22 am
  “You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it’s me, I’m a little fu*ked up maybe, but I’m funny how, I mean funny like I’m a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I’m here to f*cking amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny? “

• Slick Ric Posted: Oct.24 at 12:24 am
  Co-sign boston32 @ 1:12, that irks me as well, because he clearly stood out amongst the most loaded position, but even with little competition dwight should probably be higher than six.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:24 am
  @Jukai – Hakeem is underrated when people forget to mention him when talking about the greatest centers. That’s it. He is overrated when people like JTaylor make silly claims like putting him on the level of or over guys like Wilt.

• Otero Posted: Oct.24 at 12:26 am
  @maniac you already know I could talk about this all day. I can’t change my 10 for now. Not even for those great legends. Duncan can teach any tall person to play pf just by watching him. And shaq has dream by 2 rings. Dream at peak> shaq at peak.but shaqs dominance spanded about a dec and change. Baylor and west are great b/c of their blueprint in the game. It really shouldn’t be fair to compare. I never like comparing a classic to a ceiling breaker.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 12:26 am
  Jukai, fair enough but your last paragraph apart from being Hakeem being a terrible passer (I wouldn’t say terrible, just unwilling at times) are the exact same things people said about Wilt.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 12:29 am
  Oh man, I’m laughing my a** off at that old Gilbert Arenas article.
  I can understand why old heads complain about the commenters nowadays too..

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 12:29 am
  JTaylor: Can’t even argue. Didn’t even think of that till I re-read it. It is the same thing people say about Wilt.

• Slick Ric Posted: Oct.24 at 12:30 am
  LOl @ ej comment, 3:53. Cp3 is overrated, and Dwight may just be rated besides this slam article, but the rest of those guys excluding pau, I completely agree with.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 12:30 am
  Yeah, I don’t like to anoint people of anything while they are still in the productive part of their career – what happens if Koe gets swept from the first or second round of the playoffs for the next 4 years and then retires? Would you still feel comfortable with that fact, 5 straight exits, via sweep from the playoffs, for a top 5 player ever? Idk, maybe that’s the wrong way to look at it, but I think it depends how Kobe closes his career that will make the difference between top 12 and top 8 (imo) all-time. What he’s done/hasn’t done as a leader makes the difference too me.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:31 am
  @Otero – Oh I know. Our top 8 is the same. I’m just saying that it’s all about preference when taking Duncan and Shaq over Hakeem/West/Doc/Baylor. With a gun to my head, I probably would take those guys too (maybe), but I got too much mad love for West & Doc to easily dismiss them without mention.

• Otero Posted: Oct.24 at 12:35 am
  @SLAM isn’t slick. They only make these misguided rankings to generate crazy extra hits via discussion. It’s brilliant and healthy for good basketball discussion. Now you guys need to put me on your team I just got my advertising degree.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:35 am
  @nbk – Great point. Excellent point actually, but he’ll still be easy top 10. Shaq ended his career on a bad note so you should knock him for that too then. Be fair. I see where you’re coming from with Kobe so if he does end his career in a bad way, I would definitely reconsider taking him over Magic & Bird, but that’s where it ends. He’s still good for #7 over everyone else.

• Galagu Posted: Oct.24 at 12:38 am
  can’t wait to see where they’re gonna fit marvin williams!

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 12:41 am
  Shaq came in the league in 92, in 06 (his 14th year) he won a title. So uhh That’s a little different right?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:45 am
  @nbk – If my math is correct, Kobe came in the league in 96; in 2010 (his 14th year) he won a title. So uhh how is that a little different?

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 12:47 am
  I think when Kobe retires he’ll be top 10, I think imo he will end up right by Duncan, right behind Shaq. Unless he gets another title or two (Dwight Howard or Chris Paul are needed imo), or even a very very very unlikely MVP, then him, Bird and Robertson will be together in my rankings. But with the 25 5 5 on 45% and limited overall dominance I can’t annoint him in that company. How y’all talk about Hakeem defensively, that’s what Tim Duncan was, to go with what he did on the block on the other end. Kobe didn’t have that kind of 2-way effect, I had to say that at some point, that is why I have Duncan over Bryant. M

• otero Posted: Oct.24 at 12:50 am
  lol @Galagu
  @nbk Yeah i feel you all the way on that. Shaq probably stayed about hour later than he should have. Luckily he makes up for that with his outstanding early career when alot of good bigs are feeling their way out in the league. Kobe is set ..you aint hear? West not letting his boy go out like that. He’s been a good seed.
  @Maniac I here you bro. In time that list will likely change anyway.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 12:54 am
  And in my opinion, John Havlicek is criminally underrated. CRIMINALLY. A top-15 or 20 player. 7 championships, career averages of 21-6-5 along with a lot of steals (did not chart steals till he was 33-38.. he averaged above a steal a game in that time) and fantastic perimeter defense. He played every role imaginable (sixth man, second banana, offense leader, veteran leader) and won in every single one of them, he had a season where he dropped 29-9-7.5 (incredible) and played from 22 to 37… not to mention raising his numbers in the playoffs…
  Why does no one give this guy love?

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 12:55 am
  Shaq ended his career as the best player on a team with a title. That was my what I meant by that. At his best he was better then Bryant at his best, even in his last year as the go-to guy. Kobe is 2 years younger then Shaq with his last title, idk Like I said I focus more on how the guys were as “the guy” when I rank them all-time. If you wanted to win a title, you had Shaq for 8 years and Kobe for 8 years, who do you build your team around? Same question with Duncan? That is the most simple way to summarize how I separate these guys, they are all great, it’s not like you measuring a lake to the ocean.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:55 am
  @nbk – lol you’re a funny guy. OK so why does Kobe have to win one or two more rings when he already has more rings than Oscar, Shaq, Duncan, Wilt, and Bird and the same amount as Magic.. One less than Jordan and Kareem? Why does Kobe have to satisfy all these silly claims to earn respect? Why does he need CP3 or Dwight to win one? He already has the same amount of MVPs as Shaq and Oscar. Limited overall dominance? Are you kidding me? 2-way player? Kobe is three times the defender that Magic and Bird were. Oscar was never known as an elite defender. Shaq isn’t a defensive juggernaut either. You just don’t like Kobe and don’t respect his greatness. Admit it man.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 12:56 am
  Cosign Jukai’s last comment. I went on a rant about that a few moths ago when I was arguing with Lakeshow on the Jordan/Kobe thing.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:57 am
  @Jukai – I agree Hondo is underrated. He deserves consideration for top 20 any day of the week. He gets no love because people don’t respect the legends of the past.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 12:57 am
  Oh, and by the way: Kobe Bryant’s #1 ranking on the SLAM top 50 on October 27th, 2008 reached well over 1,100 comments. That has to be a good read.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:00 am
  @nbk – You’re always supposed to build around the big. That’s the rule. Inside out. You should take Shaq and Duncan over Magic, Bird, and Oscar too if you were trying to build a legit team. Does that mean they are better? No. You’re nitpicking against Kobe.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 1:02 am
  Uhhh like I said, I don’t give Kobe as much credit for his 3 titles with Shaq as you obviously do. Basically I think Oscar would have won 5 straight titles with Shaq, if not however many it took till they lost. Like I said last comment, I’d rather build a team around Shaq for his career, Oscar, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Moses, Duncan, and the 4, over Kobe Bryant.

• DukeFromDeep Posted: Oct.24 at 1:02 am
  This is a bit low for Howard, but my question to you, my respected peers, is why is LBJ number one in your polls? After his sub-par showing in the finals cementing his legacy (for now) as someone who crumbles under pressure why would anyone rank him so high? Inconsistent finisher, average post skills, lack of killer instinct, I mean c’mon.
  Reminds me of the 90s when everyone raved about Karl Malone and bloody John Stockton. The games I saw Malone just melted and made one stupid play after the other. It made me cringe to watch it, let alone be a Utah fan. Don’t get me started on Stockton. Most overrated point of all time. Boring as s**t to watch. Predictable. Paul, Williams, Rose, Wall, Rondo would smash him in today’s game (coughs)… there. I said it.
  Response?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:02 am
  @nbk – Shaq’s last four year were worthless. After the 06 title, he became a journeyman. No super all-time great player should play for six different teams. Stop overrating him to downplay Kobe.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 1:04 am
  I would take Magic and Bird over Duncan every day. “your supposed to build inside out” tell that too Michael Jordan. I am aware of how basketball traditionally works, their are exceptions. They are called the greatest players of all time.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 1:04 am
  HA! Jukai had an allabout-penis-enlargement.com under his name, dude was a trip back then. I also love all those one-liners everyone threw out there, hysterical!

• otero Posted: Oct.24 at 1:05 am
  @Nbk i hear you man. To me Kobe is as if you had Jordan in a video game. Or to put it this way a man with Jordan powers abusing them. Its just my opinion I’ve always felt like Kobe just forced it a bit much. i.e. the .45. Not to take away from what he has done tho. Helped get an early 3. Seen the finals 3 years str8 and snatched 2. Plus dropped 81. I think Kobe could’ve got alot more rings as fortunate as he has had it. Just this past yr the lakers couldve had a better season if Kobe could have accepted Pau having a larger contribution out the gate. If he had that real ballers mentality he could had really be shi**ing.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 1:06 am
  God, I was a real dbag back then… I guess that goes back to the whole “When you’re 20 you think you know everything” discussion.
  I mean, I WROTE THIS ON THE KOBE ARTICLE:
  Jukai Posted: Oct.27 at 10:39 am
  Hey Ryan, I thought your article was great, but wouldn’t it have just been easier to take a picture of yourself shaking your dick while simultaneously giving the finger to every single reader who visits the website?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:07 am
  @nbk Man I’m done. You don’t like Kobe. Just say it. It’s fine. How can you just automatically say that Oscar would have won 5 straight with Shaq? That’s a serious claim. You’re making up stuff. I could say that Jordan and Shaq would have won nothing together because they wouldn’t have coexisted. Now look. See how subjective that is? What happened to being objective? You have something personal against Kobe. Period.

• unf*ckwitable Posted: Oct.24 at 1:10 am
  ^hahahahahahaha

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:11 am
  @nbk – The showtime Lakers were built around Kareem dude. The team evolved as the 80s went on, but that was Kareem’s team. Next, Bird had the privilege of being part of one of the great front courts of all-time. You could argue the Celtics were built around him, but I would say more so the full front court. Jordan is an exception yes. You don’t think the Lakers are built around Kobe? Why did they let Shaq go? To build around Kobe. Stop being biased.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:15 am
  Should we even respond to DukeFromDeep?

• otero Posted: Oct.24 at 1:15 am
  Thats a great way to put it. “who would you take in 8 year span”. BUT– If you had a great playmaker/scorer he can turn a mediocre team into a championship team as oppose to if you had a great big man with a bunch of sorrys the team may compete with no real chance tho.

• ab40 Posted: Oct.24 at 1:16 am
  Kobe over Dwigth at this point in their careers makes no sense at all. To see no bigs in the top 5 shows how biased you guys are towards wing players. Derrick Rose played like sh*t the entire playoffs. Jeff teague(!!!) Played him to a standstill in the atl series. I’d definetly rank Rose, Kobe and Wade below dwight. And Dirk above those guys. And the article states the obvious we were spoiled in the 90′s with the good to great centers of that era. I miss that.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 1:17 am
  NBK: In fairness, I think you’re thinking “best” player and not “greatest” player. If you say “let’s take player a and b at their height, who would you want on your team” you’re thinking best.
  You gotta look at the career and accomplishments as well as their heights, when you think greatest. Kobe has a better career and better accomplishments. He is a greater player. Shaq was better at the height of his game. He is the better player.
  Or maybe it’s an opinion. I’m not quite sure.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 1:20 am
  They were built around Kareem until Paul Westhead. Here click my name, convo on this very subject from 09, except I was arguing a different subject, and I was supporting Kobe and Shaq as a better tandem then Magic and Kareem. But it makes it so I don’t have to respond, my girl is gettin annoyed.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 1:21 am
  Jukai yes I am arguing best. I thought that was clear.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:22 am
  @ab40 – I agree Dwight should be in the top 5

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:25 am
  @otero – I think it really depends on the type of team and the players on it. Chris Paul took the Hornets nowhere and Dwight took the Magic nowhere. You can really say what player a would do with team b. It’s all subjective and speculation. Kobe took the Lakers nowhere in the mid 2000s and Wade took the Heat nowhere after 06 until LeBron went to Miami. No player can raise a crappy team to championship level by themselves. Hell, even Jordan with 63 against the Celtics got swept. It’s a team game.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 1:26 am
  NBK: In fairness, I didn’t read the first 350+ posts. it’s not like the old days. My job fores me to concentrate…
  But yeah, I had no idea what you were arguing, I just jumped in. If this comment section is gonna break 400, I’m gonna be a part of it damnit. I’m a pioneer.

• otero Posted: Oct.24 at 1:27 am
  @Maniac yeah man originally they were building around Shaq. But ultimately they had the luxury of being able to build around Kobe post Shaq. I think West rolled the dice on a young kid he’d been watching but he had to get Shaq first and wait a while for Kobe to get his ears wet.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:27 am
  @Jukai – nbk is just biased against Kobe. He doesn’t like him and is just trying to make up stuff to pass as facts as to why Kobe is not an ultra all-time great.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:29 am
  @nbk – No you’ve been saying greatest not best. Stop trying to change the argument. Enough about this because I’m not going to get through to you.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 1:32 am
  Maniac: Er, he’s not biased against Kobe. He has another opinion, dude. Relax up. I agree with NBK in the respect that I think Wade has been better than Kobe two or so years. I agree with NBK that Kobe probably should have taken this spot and Dwight + everyone else should be 5-1.
  It’s just what people think. The hard part is to not get too angry when an idea seems bizarre to you.
  Unless it is JTaylor, go apesh*t on that kid.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 1:32 am
  I’m sorry I used the word greatest, in my head I was arguing best. I would not have said the take 1 guy and build around him comment if I didn’t.

• otero Posted: Oct.24 at 1:33 am
  @Maniac Agreed. But I was really referring to the top 10 goats and lebron for good measure but mostly the goats. But your right ultimately b/c not for nothing your team cant do to great with a sorry coach either.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:33 am
  @Jukai – Lol this is my first time ever posting on SLAM. I pretty much anchored this seeing as how people have been bashing me all day. I’ve had like 10 different people attack me on different occasions. I would not be surprised if I’ve commented over 150 times. Hell maybe 200.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:36 am
  @Jukai – I’m not getting angry or anything. I do think he is biased against Kobe because he is fair in his analysis of everyone, but him… all-time. I can live with people liking Wade over Kobe. That’s what opinions are for. I’m just saying that I agree with pretty nothing he says.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:36 am
  @nbk – I don’t even know what we’re arguing about anymore lol.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 1:37 am
  I actually would have put Rose here Durant at 7, Chris Paul at 5, Kobe at 4, Dwyane at 3, Dwight 2, LeBron 1. But would have been straight with any order of Wade – then Howard or Bryant. And I realize my opinion of Chris Paul is higher then most.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:38 am
  @otero – Oh I know. Yep, it’s a group effort. A team has to be clicking on all cylinders for it to truly be effective.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 1:43 am
  Greatest wise I’d have Jordan, Russel, KAJ, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, then probably Robertson. Maybe Havlicek or Julius Erving (counting his ABA career and accomplishments). So yes I’d have Kobe as top 10 “greatest” I apologize for the misunderstanding.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:43 am
  @nbk – I can somewhat agree with your top 7. CP3 is legit. He and Rose are 1 and 1A when it comes to point guards. OK I got something. Can we agree that Kobe and Wade are 1 and 1A for shooting guards like Rose and CP3? Then we can make peace?

• otero Posted: Oct.24 at 1:44 am
  Chris Paul is the best PG in the league. Derrick Rose is the better player at the moment. Think Iverson vs. Nash

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:45 am
  OK great nbk, at least you have Kobe top 10 “greatest”. I agree with that. We can make peace on that as well. We had a real big misunderstanding. Order is not real important when it comes to top 10 all-time, but we agree.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:47 am
  @Otero – I know what you mean, but Derrick Rose is the best point guard in the league because he plays that position. CP3 obviously has superior point guard skills, but because Rose is a pg, he is the better pg. It’s a misunderstanding and a play on words. I see what you’re saying though.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 1:49 am
  We can agree that Kobe and Wade are clearly the 2 best shooting guards in the league. Wade being clealry (imo i guess) better then Kobe over the course of a season. That’s not to say there aren’t nights Kobe isn’t the best player on earth, but not for a whole year/playoffs, not at this point in his career

• San Dova Posted: Oct.24 at 1:49 am
  1) I didn’t pick this ranking–this is an average from all the participating writers. I had Dwight 3 or 4 here.
  2) I love this discussion.
  3) Dwight’s so obviously great and the best at his position, I didn’t wanna keep going over it with stats. What appeals to me about Dwight is that he’s NOT this “Superman”. Superman can do anything all by himself. Dwight obviously can not. Dwight’s strengths are team-based, but within the team, his glory as an elite player is revealed. Thanks to all who have read and continue to comment.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 1:51 am
  Damn don’t y’all sleep?
  LOL

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:53 am
  @nbk – I can live with that.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 1:54 am
  @Enigmatic – Sleep is the cousin of death. I sleep when I rest lol

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 1:55 am
  Almost 11 here, and it is basically dvr night for the lady lol I’m chillen bout to play 2k actually

• otero Posted: Oct.24 at 1:56 am
  lol@ maniac. Idk Wade is that guy Ive been watching him in person for 4 and half years at every home game and can honestly say he is nothing short of incredible. He willed himself to the elite level he is at and you can see it in his game every night. He doesnt have that privileged air to him like a bron or kobe. Wade as great as he is tho will never be at their peak but at least he can be compared to them. Dwade is almost like a mini bron with speed and a better mid range. You put bron and rose together and you have wade. Kobe is the champ while wade might be the people’s champ.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 1:57 am
  Enigmatic: I slept for so freaking long today, it’s embarrassing. And I don’t work till noon tomorrow. So I got some energy.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 2:01 am
  Ha.
  “I never sleep/cause sleep is the cousin of death”.
  Funny, Sunday’s DVR night for me. Don’t usually have time to watch my shows all week.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 2:02 am
  Mad jealous of Jukai not having to work till noon.
  Man, I gotta get up at 6 tomorrow. FML.

• Darksaber Posted: Oct.24 at 2:02 am
  I’m truly enjoying how ‘Matic, NBK-Sooper, JTaylor and *gasp* Jukai are keeping this year’s Top 50 going in the comments section.
  Keep it up, guys.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 2:05 am
  @otero – Yeah I like the idea of putting Bron and Rose together to get Wade. That sounds about right. Wade is amazing. (I have this theory that he took steroids in 08 to comeback for that super amazing 09 season). I just can’t personally take him over Kobe or Bron. Earlier I said that he has always been in their shadow. Everyone likes the underdog and that’s probably why some favor Wade over Kobe.

• Dagger Posted: Oct.24 at 2:06 am
  San Dova: what does that even mean? Were Dwight or Shaq ever called Superman because Superman can do everything all by himself? What player can do everything all by himself (and what is everything in this context, anyway)? What sense is there in holding a player to an impossible (and imaginary) standard? And beyond that: Dwight may obviously be the best at his position, but his spot in the rankings was definitely controversial. Some attempt to justify his ranking might have been nice, perhaps written by someone who believed he belongs where he’s ranked?

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 2:08 am
  Dark: If you join us, we’ll get this sucker over 500.

• Caboose Posted: Oct.24 at 2:09 am
  Ok, allow me to summarize:
  -Maniac, I salute the effort, but you gotta sometimes acknowledge the fact that you could be wrong.
  -Maniac, you sound arrogant. Stop it.
  -nbk, good points as always, article links tend to not hold impact though. No newbies read them.
  -Enig, good stuff, always great to see your humor.
  -Z, you’re not better than us no matter how much you think you are.
  -Age isn’t terribly important. I’m 19 but I like to think I can make intelligent points.
  -This ranking is still ludicrous.
  -Kobe is right about at #10 all time.
  -Thanks for reading.

• otero Posted: Oct.24 at 2:13 am
  @Maniac I feel you but its the only way to make sense of it. Iverson played PG(SG when larry got there or really any backcourt spot when he needed) Derrick Rose also could play shooting guard as much as he shoots the ball. Iverson was a better shooting guard than pointguard. Sometimes your in a spot b/c of the condition of your roster or your stature. Wade also played the point. The Point Guard position has a definition and the player should be rated at that position based on how well he executes at that position. That doesnt take away from the special player who can do it all but it has alot to do with your understanding of the game and how to play your position to the T and then be able to do extra.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 2:14 am
  @Caboose – I accept that I can be wrong at times. I’ve probably been wrong about some stuff I said here today, but I don’t mean to come off as arrogant.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 2:14 am
  I appreciate the appreciation. Nice of y’all (Dark & Caboose) to make an appearance.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 2:15 am
  Jukai, I see that you’ve finally come out of that cave you were hiding in for good (say hi to Osama for me, oooops!). Just remember don’t go too hard though because we wouldn’t want that rusty pacemaker of yours overworking its self. Alright, herbet!

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 2:18 am
  Maniac just don’t call people stupid for their opinion, and don’t assume the “basketball conscious” people you have been influenced by are more intelligent then those people were/are in our life. This is Slam, all of us are obvious a little basketball crazed, or the ballislife types, the majority of us have a good base in our knowledge and are willing to debate argue and even be wrong (some of us, me only sometimes lol). Other then that your gonna be goood to have around, can never get too many know it alls, as long as they accept they can be wrong.

• otero Posted: Oct.24 at 2:19 am
  @Maniac I wouldnt say roids but maybe hormonal growth tho.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 2:19 am
  @otero – I agree. Some people in Chicago got mad at me when I said Rose is not a real pg. He’s a sg in a pg’s body, but I guess that still makes him a pg. I mean Duncan is still a pf even though he can play center (and plays like one). You’re right. Some players are placed in positions under circumstances. I just think because he’s listed as a pg right now, we should consider him that until the Bulls find someone else who can play the 1. Whatever the matter, we agree he’s better than CP3, whom most certainly is the better traditional pg.

• Caboose Posted: Oct.24 at 2:20 am
  Thanks nbk. I’m trying to break into the level of “regulars” on this site haha. And maniac, I’d like to see more of you on the forums, you just remind me a bit of JTaylor about a year and a half ago. Less personal insults, less anecdotal stuff, more concrete (read: not necessarily statistics) evidence. Can’t wait for tomorrow’s ranking.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 2:24 am
  @nbk – I didn’t mean to call anyone stupid. It was the others who started the name calling (I think lol). I respect opinions and the assumption wasn’t that I or anyone else is more intelligent than someone else, I just probably am a little overaggressive. Thanks for the warm welcome and sorry that we got off to a rocky start lol.

• Off The Backboard Posted: Oct.24 at 2:24 am
  I love Kobe. He is one of my favourite players and has been since he was a youngin, but there is no way in hell that Bean is outperforming Howard next year. None. Zero. As such, this is a terrible, terrible ranking. Seriously. D-Ho was the legit #2 MVP candidate last year on most people’s list behind Rose. This is a horrendous choice and I’m wondering wtf the people at SLAM were thinking.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 2:25 am
  @Otero – He was definitely doing something lol.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 2:28 am
  @Caboose – Thanks. I didn’t mean to sound like an a**hole today, I just kind of got in my F*** THE FREE WORLD zone lol.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 2:28 am
  Haha your about as regular as anyone around here. Just comment a little later on in the day then the rest of us.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 2:29 am
  I think I left my mark on this article lol. My fingers are tired. I’m going to scram in a few….

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 2:30 am
  No stress maniac I was basically you, but for like 3 months, it was exhausting and I was a dick. Worse then you actually, you’d have to ask Allen, Jukai or Eboy.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 2:32 am
  NBK: I mean, you’re still a d*ck, you’re just a toned down dick. We all still love you though.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 2:35 am
  Haha fair enough Jukai.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 2:36 am
  Lmao @nbk & Jukai – Those guys put on a show in OKC tonight at a charity game. Went to overtime. 176-171… So what do you guys think of the lockout?

• Caboose Posted: Oct.24 at 2:42 am
  Hence my name nbk. Being on the west coast puts me behind everybody else so I figure Ill just add my wrap up points after all you guys. Makes for fun discussion, right? And don’t worry Maniac, no one gets it perfect their first time.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 2:42 am
  Who’s we? I want absolutely nothing to do with a “toned down dick”.

• quicklikeaf0x Posted: Oct.24 at 2:53 am
  Complete joke that Rose is above Howard, COMPLETE joke. Howard who runs the floor better than most guards, Howard who kept THE BEST DEFENSE IN THE PAINT, Howard who is the LEADING scorer for the magic. Howard who had the SECOND best PER for the season. Howard who plays with a team full of god awful defenders maintaining anywhere from a top 10 to top 5 defense. Howard who has missed at most 5 GAMES THROUGH HIS ENTIRE CAREER. So what if he doesn’t get to battle top quality centers, the guy is literally everywhere he can be on the court defensively. The game is clearly a guards game with how fouls are today. Complete JOKE.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 2:54 am
  Haha I feel you caboose

• Double J Posted: Oct.24 at 2:54 am
  I think NBK’s dog chewed up his shoes and thus the Kobe hate.

• hoopistani Posted: Oct.24 at 2:57 am
  Fantastic write-up, one of my favourites so far of the top 50
  I’m cool with his standing – he ain’t better than rose, durant, wade, kobe etc. Although I’m still shocked that Dirk was left off out of the top 5. In my list: Dirk is 5, Kobe 6, Dwight 7. Stop overrated Kobe.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 2:58 am
  I’m out. Later.

• Caboose Posted: Oct.24 at 3:21 am
  Haha yeah, where do you call home nbk? Do you have a team btw? Don’t think I’ve asked that…

• Darksaber Posted: Oct.24 at 3:23 am
  Jukster: naah, you guys will easily get this to 500 by tomorrow.
  Ps: i don’t think i’ve ever read anything as hilarious as ‘i want absolutely nothing to do w. a toned down d*ck’ since the creation of this site. JT might be a semi-troll, but damn if he isn’t an eloquent one. Fun..ny!

• q the kid Posted: Oct.24 at 3:34 am
  @ab40 Rose averaged 27points, 8 assists and 4 rebounds in the playoffs mostly on a bum ankle so he didn’t suck in the playoffs, he just ran into a bigger version of himself in Lebron and had no gas in the end. Plus he averaged 29.8 points, 9.8 assists, and 4.3 boards vs Teague’s 14.8 4.2 assists, and 3 boards so how is that defined as a standstill?

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 3:40 am
  Phoenix my dood, and if I gotta claim someone it’ll be them.

• Caboose Posted: Oct.24 at 3:47 am
  Ah ok, so you’re the same time zone as me until what, mid November? And fair enough, it’s much easier to just be a fan of the game though. Cause then you’re never disappointed right? (Unless it’s a Cavs/Raptors game. Sorry Mubwar)

• Slick Ric Posted: Oct.24 at 3:48 am
  @q the kid, I completely agree, just because he performed better than your expectations dont mean he was going toe to toe with D.Rose, these dudes tripping.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 3:55 am
  Haha I just don’t like to attach myself to something that I can hate. Like I despise Robert Sarver and how he ran the squad into the ground, I’m not a fan of anything he owns. So I feel pride, clearly lol, just would rather watch good basketball and talk about good basketball rather then homer out about the Suns. Plus I loathe bias’ they screw with objectivity

• The Philosopher Posted: Oct.24 at 4:15 am
  LONG… LIVE… THE KING.

• Michael NZ Posted: Oct.24 at 4:21 am
  So good that he couldn’t lead his team past a flawed Atlanta Hawks squad in the first round.

• L Posted: Oct.24 at 4:55 am
  Dwight is where he belongs at 6. He is the best center in the league because it is a weak generation of centers comparing to the 90′s. In my book he is at Alonzo Mourning level. He is no Shaq, Ewing, DRob or Dream. He is a great defender with a limited offensive repertoire. The 5 best players are more complete on both ends of the floor. L

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 4:56 am
  Maniac was going HAM lol

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 4:59 am
  Man, I’m on Alaska time. Later than Caboose and nbk.
  And it still trips me out whenever someone calls me a “regular” around here.
  It seems like just a few months ago I was the new guy like Maniac is now, just trying to get a word in here or there every once in a while and earn peeps’ respect.
  But I’ve “met” some of the coolest peeps on here.
  Love chopping’ it up with y’all here and on Twitter.

• Hursty Posted: Oct.24 at 6:19 am
  God, reading most of this hurt my brain.
  1) Dwight’s impact on his team over an extended period of time is greater than everyone else left to be listed, with the exception of Durant. Wade & LeBron have themselves+Bosh. Kobe has Pau, Artest, Bynum. Durant has Westbrook. Rose has Deng, Noah and Boozer.
  2) The write-up was awful.
  3) Longest comment section I can remember being a part of was in Holly’s final ‘The Post Up’ which got over 1K comments.
  4) I agree on the ‘my way or the highway’ regarding being younger and being completely stubborn with regards to your opinion regardless of the information placed against you.

• Slick Ric Posted: Oct.24 at 6:44 am
  ^ shut up dude, Durant does not have a bigger impact than those guys. Last season( In the beginning) people were asking if he was even the best player on the team.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.24 at 7:32 am
  Damn. SMH…

• RobbieJay Posted: Oct.24 at 7:50 am
  why cant we be friends…why cant we be friends…everybody now

• Feez22 Posted: Oct.24 at 8:17 am
  I understood Chris Paul at 8. This ranking though is ridiculous. Dwight should be top 3 IMO. Since his offensive game isn’t aesthetically pleasing like the wings in the rest of the top 5 or because his offensive game isn’t as dominant as shaq’s he isn’t top 5? Dwight was a beast last season. On both ends… Especially to end the season. Ya they lost to the hawks but for crying out loud he plays with a washed up hedo and washed up arenas. They are useless now. Dwight is the 2nd best 2 way player in the game ( I still think lebron is the #1 2 way player ATM) but since defense will not be discussed here… The magic were top 5 in defense last year despite having NO ELITE DEFENDER OTHER THAN DWIGHT. the wing defense the magic played last yr was horrid yet they still were top 5. Why? Dwight.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.24 at 8:54 am
  There’s a reason I haven’t commented on any of the Top 50 posts this year. This is turrible.

• Darksaber Posted: Oct.24 at 8:56 am
  Five-zero-zero.
  For Duh-White.

• Darksaber Posted: Oct.24 at 8:57 am
  Plus it’s repetitive, E.
  Top 50 has lost it’s allure (to me that is).

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 9:04 am
  Also lot’s of people forget he has like the least amount of shot attempts of any superstart in the L.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.24 at 9:08 am
  Dark, when I read something like this, it kind of damages my thoughts that the new breed of SLAM writers have a rock-solid grasp on the game and it’s players in it’s current state. This list is NOT supposed to be a popularity contest but it’s painfully obvious (especially with Dwight’s place on this list) that the chosen writer’s that put it together are kind of still trying to find their footing and are many, many steps behind the crew of writers that were here before them, even just 3 or 4 years ago. To validate Dwight being behind D-Rose and D-Wade is debatable. Putting him behind Kobe and their individual production for the upcoming season (whenever that MAY be) is just asinine.

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 9:22 am
  ^
  Watch out for maniac lol.

• Ben Osborne Posted: Oct.24 at 9:24 am
  Who said Sunday posts don’t get a lot of comments?

• Darksaber Posted: Oct.24 at 9:33 am
  Touché, Ed.

• marc Posted: Oct.24 at 9:41 am
  kobe is my favorite player now but he’s not going to be number 1. Of course its lebron. I just wish that people would stop hating on Kobe and saying he is not a good defender. IMO i think lebron is an overrated defender. Lebron is just a good help side defender because of his athleticism.
  PS Hakeem is a top 10 player on my list.

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 9:47 am
  lmao maniac was tripping for a while

• Lz - Cphfinest3 Posted: Oct.24 at 9:48 am
  Completely agree Eboy & Dark. A example; when was Shaq ever 7-2?: Guy was (is) huge but he never had the height of say a Mutombo. There was also something about New Orleans in there (has since been edited out).

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 9:49 am
  also i’d like to point out that i’m 19 and like caboose am not an @ss… lmfao

• UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER Posted: Oct.24 at 9:51 am
  COTDAMM!!! I ACTUALLY READ ALL OF THAT OLD GIL POST, APPARENTLY I DIDNT POST IN THERE, THO A FEW PEOPLE CALLED ME OUT. I MISS THOSE TIMES WHEN THE SLAM WRITERS WERE ALL IN THE COMMENTS SLINGING SHTT AT EVERYONE, FUN TIMES.
  ENIGMATIC, YEA, WE SPOKE OF THAT BEFORE, BUT IF MY GRANDMA HAD ONIONS, SHE’D BE MY GRANDPA. TIM PLAYED IN THE YEARS HE PLAYED, AND HE WON, ALOT.

• Lz - Cphfinest3 Posted: Oct.24 at 10:01 am
  It seems to me that the voters/writers on this list themselves has been confused about how to vote/write (projected next season or simply ‘best player’). Imo there is no consistency in the list what so ever, some guys seem to be rated on what they will do next year, others on their overall level, others as a life-time achievement award. The Top 50 has not been up to the lofty SLAM standards, just like Eboy and Dark I have also decided against wasting time commenting because of this. We could be grumpy old men and the new writers can just reject our opinions as ‘hate’, but really SLAM should ask itself why several commentator mainstays are now nowhere to be seen and why the level of the articles and the argumentation of the writers is now being questioned, it used to mostly be the rankings/players that was being discussed.

• dev0 Posted: Oct.24 at 10:07 am
  All the haters and the know-it-alls came out to play. My fingers have a rash from scrolling down too far.
  Just say it, you thought he’d be higher on the list because you’re supposed to value defense, and now he’s 6 when he could have been 2.
  But he’s clearly limited in some areas, and maybe maybe deserves to be a spot or two higher, but SLAM was justified in placing him at 6.
  I think we can all agree on that.
  Dwight Howard, prove us wrong.

• Cole World, Make Way For The Chosen 1 Posted: Oct.24 at 10:13 am
  That was just a confusing article…

• AD Posted: Oct.24 at 10:15 am
  Hello Brooklyn How ya doing………

• Around the Nets: 10/24 Monday Edition | Nets Are Scorching Posted: Oct.24 at 10:26 am
  [...] Our own Sandy Dover on SLAM’s sixth-ranked NBA player, never-Superman. [...]

• jarrett Posted: Oct.24 at 10:57 am
  aaight cmon now yall, yall went HAM on this comment section. SLAM release number 5 and RIP these arguments please… its like 500 comments already.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 11:04 am
  What the hell happened here?

• niQ Posted: Oct.24 at 11:07 am
  520 comments? LOL. cosign Allenp.

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 11:08 am
  Maniac Happend lol
  “Slamonline where Maniac happens”

• Caboose Posted: Oct.24 at 11:44 am
  Word datkid, intelligence is more important than age. And Allen: Dwight was ranked 6. That’s what happened.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 11:56 am
  Oh, and don’t just read the Gilbert Arenas joint, read the joint on Iverson that ran the day before.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 12:10 pm
  I’m happy I was on hiatus during that top 50

• LakeShow Posted: Oct.24 at 2:22 pm
  Wow….. I missed out on some fun. I like this Maniac fella. Knows what he is talking about. Please come around more often so i’m not battling against a team of commentors every dam day.

• Clos1881 Posted: Oct.24 at 2:43 pm
  There’s not 5 players better than Dwight in the league

• Matt Park Posted: Oct.25 at 12:03 am
  Read halfway through the comments (took 20 minutes) and stopped reading because the argument turned into name-calling and rehashing of facts… And what nbk or datkid was saying about Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol being the defensive anchors of the team is right… Stats prove it and basketball knowledge proves it.

• GERMAN RAMOS Posted: Oct.25 at 4:28 am
  MY #1 THRU #4 IN THE SLAM TOP 50 PLAYERS LIST…
  1.LeBRON JAMES EL HEAT
  2.D.ROSE BULLS
  3.K.DURANT THUNDER
  4.KOBE LAKERS

• GERMAN RAMOS Posted: Oct.25 at 4:43 am
  D.HOWARD & C.BOSH SHOULD BE HIGHER ON THE LIST…

• Hursty Posted: Oct.25 at 5:31 am
  Slick Ric – sigh. You sir, have missed the point entirely. This is about next season. Not at the beginning of last year, half-way through it, or any other point in time. It’s about the expected production of players for the 2012 season.

• Jono Posted: Oct.25 at 9:19 am
  About right. Franchise players take over in the crunch. I mean, give me the ball and get the fu(k out my way! Dwight doesn’t go this ever. He does however, play magnificent music that is game-changing and that warrants a top 8 spot, but not a top 5.

• Jones Posted: Oct.27 at 5:51 am
  His somewhat limited post game still probably hurts him, though he has gotten better. I still bet Dwight is glad that Perkins is in the west now. He still can’t make free throws though. And this list is, “based solely on projected ’11-12 performance.” Around 19 points a game, 13 boards, nearly 3 blocks, fg and ft % both hovering around 50 and 2 turnovers a game. Number six sounds about right.

• deith Posted: Oct.29 at 1:17 pm
  I’m not a fan of DHoward but him not in top 3 is just a big joke. That dosent look good.

• 3kings Posted: Oct.30 at 12:16 am
  he is where he belongs. not hating because i love dwight its just hes not as good as the other players. defesivly hes an absolute beast, and he cud average 25 and 15 if teamates would give him the dam ball and he got better at freethrows

• DA Posted: Dec.10 at 5:19 pm
  Call me crazy…but if you were Miami would you not try for one of these trades? 1. C Bosh + L James FOR D Howard. or 2. C Bosh + D Wade FOR D Howard. If Miami gets DH with one of Wade or James they win.

• Mike Posted: Jan.18 at 12:24 pm
  #6 Really?
  Had the #2 Per stat last year…right behind Lebron.
  Where’s the love?