Top 50: Dwyane Wade, no. 5

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• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.24 at 11:32 am
  Nice work, big bro!

• niQ Posted: Oct.24 at 11:34 am
  Damn. No offense to Enigmatic but I think Dwyane Wade > Derrick Rose.

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 11:36 am
  wtffffff there is NO WAY DERRICK ROSE, OR KOBE IS BETTER THAN D.WADE!!!!!!!!!!!

• Eboy Posted: Oct.24 at 11:38 am
  Might as well get this out of the way: SLAM has lost most of their credibility. Pretty sad.

• niQ Posted: Oct.24 at 11:38 am
  Beautiful write up by the way, Maurice. Wade is definitely a one-man wrecking crew. Hope dude is healing up during this whole lockout with his injury history.

• LA Huey Posted: Oct.24 at 11:39 am
  I felt like niQ at first but the article makes a good argument. Wade won’t try and won’t need to shoulder kind of load Rose will. As a result, Rose will have a greater season than Wade. But then I don’t get why Howard is ranked behind Rose.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 11:39 am
  Haha! I called it like AT&T. Told you guys Wade would be #5. SLAM is getting predictable.

• LA Huey Posted: Oct.24 at 11:40 am
  On 2nd thought, Kobe won’t have a better season than Wade. I can’t wait to read the explanation for that mistake.

• hoopistani Posted: Oct.24 at 11:40 am
  Wade LeBron/Durant I can understand, but Wade below Kobe/Rose is a shocker. Hell no friggin way COME ON SLAM!!!

• niQ Posted: Oct.24 at 11:43 am
  @LA Huey. True…but I saw it like this. Wade and Rose are both elite scorers, but when it comes to defense. Wade is better than Rose. Just 1 arguement but still. lol.

• LA Huey Posted: Oct.24 at 11:45 am
  niQ everyone always underrates the importance of defense. Especially, since without looking into advanced stats, numbers don’t accurately reflect individual defensive contributions.

• Caboose Posted: Oct.24 at 11:47 am
  Eboy, you have a right to be angry. Go for it. And the top 4 players in the NBA are Bron, Rose, Durant, Kobe? Pathetic Slam. Dwight and Wade should be 2-3 respectively. And Enig, you’re probably gonna get a lot of undeserved hate cause of Rose’s ranking.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 11:48 am
  I disagree with the logic they are using, but I too would have put Wade at #5 if it came down to him vs. the top 4. They’re not going by best player now (because he is still better than KD & Rose); they are going by next season. KD & Rose are MVP canidates and the #1 on their teams. They expect Kobe to have a furious comeback season (I agree).

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 11:51 am
  I thought yesterday’s ranking was manure, well today’s Kentucky-Derby horsesh*t. Who the hell are the so-called basketball “writers” that came up with this BS. It doesn’t matter what the criteria is; DHow and DWade are better players, will have better all-around stats and are capable of carrying a team more than Kobe/Durant/Rose.

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 11:52 am
  DWade and Dwight should be NO2 and NO3
  1 Lebron
  2/3 Wade/Howard
  4 Kobe
  5/6 DRose/KD

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 11:55 am
  I’m not a big advocate of propping Rose and Durant prematurely so I won’t defend them. I can say I understand their logic though I may not agree with it. I called Wade at #5 because i saw it coming, but you guys are severely underestimating Kobe. Seriously

• Double J Posted: Oct.24 at 11:55 am
  Oh man… Lebron is #4 I can feel this…

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 11:56 am
  Great write up by the way.
  Maniac, well let him prove us wrong if there is a season.

• Shem Posted: Oct.24 at 11:57 am
  At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if Rose was #1, SLAM is clearly on his d*ck.

• Jamil Posted: Oct.24 at 11:58 am
  DWADE > DROSE – No Brainer
  Without Wade doing his thing in the Finals -… Heat would have been blown out! Top 5 1. Kobe
  2-4 (in any order) KD/LERBON/DWADE
  5. D.Rose

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 11:58 am
  this is terrible.

• neaorin Posted: Oct.24 at 11:59 am
  I hate the Heat but this HAS to be someone’s idea of a joke.

• Lz - Cphfinest3 Posted: Oct.24 at 12:03 pm
  Very nice write-up. Enjoyed it Mr. Bobb, thank you. The ranking however once again is just plain wrong. Wade should be at least Top 3 (if not ranked 1 or 2), he is still a far better all-around player than both Durant and Rose, and he should be above Kobe as well as it has been obvious for some time that he has overtaken Kobe as the best end-to-end SG in the L. Really the only 3 players that could be legitimately ranked ahead of Wade are James, Dwight and Dirk, maybe just maybe one could make a case for Durant but as he is still not a good defender and much less of a playmaker than Wade that imo is a year to early to rank Durant ahead of Wade. Durant has to show strides on D, being a leader, being able to shake top notch defenders and when creating shots/room for his teammates to be considered Wade’s equal, a year to early I belive but he could just might surprise me. Anyways that is all. Have a nice day fellas.

• Dagger Posted: Oct.24 at 12:04 pm
  Wow, this is hilarious. What the hell happened to these rankings? I thought Love at 16 was bad, but Dirk at 7? Worse: Howard at 6? And Wade at 5? If players are ranked on expected production next year, why is Howard at 6, below Kobe? If they’re ranked on their quality as players right now, why is Wade at 5, below Rose? Mind-boggling. The most ridiculous part of this article: “Wade still makes the grade as an elite player and superstar that a franchise can hang its hat on.” Really? Still? Did anyone doubt that?

• Joey E. Posted: Oct.24 at 12:05 pm
  you guys gotta stop hating on kobe, man. he’s still top 2. he was injured last season. finger, knees, etc. if slam wants to give him the BOD, fine. As for Wade, I really wouldn’t put Derrick or Kevin ahead of him. DWade has to be top 5. im kind of baffled

• Joel O's Posted: Oct.24 at 12:07 pm
  I frankly would take Dwight over ANYONE outside of Lebron or Durant right now if I needed a franchise centerpiece. I guess the Magic’s poor playoffs this last time round is hurting Dwight on this list. But seriously, surround Dwight by a bunch of trigger-happy / short / fat / old shooters and his team will easily get 50 wins, any year. Rose did get better, not THAT much better.

• marc Posted: Oct.24 at 12:10 pm
  IM a kobe fan but his injury is why i had him behind him dwade. SIGH slam really can be bias. I think Kobe HAS to be next or they are pushing it. There are just too many questions. New coach and new system. Plus his injury. He can either do great or just be the same. As a Kobe fan im hoping he does great. But dwade should be ranked higher.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 12:12 pm
  Everyone was injured at some point last season, so stop with the excuses. You can not be a top-2 player when you are taking countless plays off on the defense end, so that you can “save your energy” for offense (LA times article), Kobe hasn’t been asked to guard the opposition’s best perimeter player for 3yrs now. #5 is the rightful spot for Kobe but I’m pretty sure Slam is going to mess up just like they have been messing up the entire list and put him at #2.

• Andrew Woods Posted: Oct.24 at 12:14 pm
  Slam has made it to where I cringe when I check the latest rankings. They admit that dwade gets to the rim better than anyone, but isnt that what drose does best, confusing? Not to mention on defense dwade is leaps and bounds ahead of drose. I understand that when you reach the top 5 things become relative, but c’mon dwade and howard below rose?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:14 pm
  I don’t understand how you guys can knock Rose and Durant for not being great two-way players, but then turnaround give Dirk props. The only player that has an “excuse” for not being skilled on both sides of the ball is Dwight because he is a big man (Dirk is a 7 foot perimeter player). Dominance >= skill set depending on the level of dominance and skill set.

• marc Posted: Oct.24 at 12:14 pm
  I would cry of so much laughter if Kobe is number 1. There would be so much hate. People would start cyberbullying in the comment box and everything would be written in caps. lmaooo

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:15 pm
  Rose will be #4. Mark my words.

• MLK4Life Posted: Oct.24 at 12:16 pm
  -____- SLAM. I’m done with your rankings after this one. Still love the mags, keep sending them. Theres no need to argue this one. I’m honestly done. Dwade at number 5? Really ?

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 12:16 pm
  I’m not surprised. Let’s get that out first of all. But I am, like Eboy is, sad, sad that Slam, what is supposed to be the place for people that are actually intelligent about basketball to go – but what you have reflected in this list is an extreme bias towards popularity, or players you just like better or whatever. Unless y’all are predicting Wade gets hurt I don’t see any logic in saying he’s better at basketball then Kevin Durant or Derrick Rose. The MVP award is not a Best Player award, the scoring title is also not a Best Player award. ANd those are the only 2 things Kevin Durant or Derrick Rose have on Dwyane Wade. smh, this is just sad

• jarrett Posted: Oct.24 at 12:18 pm
  Dwade is better than Rose, Durant, and Kobe. SMH no need to argue this one. Im honestly done with these rankings. this my last comment.

• marc Posted: Oct.24 at 12:18 pm
  Jtaylor21 idk if that was directed towards me but i agree with you. I don’t know why slam would place him this high after him coming off injury. And didnt he have surgery too? I think kobe would have a good season though. He probably is good for the next 2 years though.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:19 pm
  I really hope Kobe makes ESPN and all of you eat your words. You guys are seriousy writing him off too easy. It’s a sad year in the NBA when people feel as though they can make examples out of him and !!! that people still acknowledge he is still the best in the league outside of LeBron and maybe Dwight’s dominance.

• marc Posted: Oct.24 at 12:20 pm
  IMO i know im going to get hate for this but i would rather have Dwade then lebron.

• Joblo Posted: Oct.24 at 12:20 pm
  Guess what eveyone, rose and durant are that good get over it. Its ok people doubted jordan too. The scary thing is that we don’t know how much better they can get. Right now judging from last season the top five or six guys is a toss up, but if you go by the projected ’11-12′ season then I understand slam’s rankings. With that said I think wade is definately a top three player and much better than kobe imo. I don’t really understand all the hate for rose, the guy won mvp for a reason and even if your not a bulls fan how could you not enjoy what he does on the hardwood.

• Red Posted: Oct.24 at 12:21 pm
  It’s perfect, Wade is no longer carrying a team, the fact 2 players on the same team are top 5 is incredible, because only one person can be the leader. As far as Kobe ranking higher than Dwight, I don’t agree. Anyways I’m hoping Rose gets #1 or 2.

• MLK4Life Posted: Oct.24 at 12:22 pm
  I don’t see why any of you are so amped up and upset about this. It’s just the opinions of SLAM writers. Your opinions aren’t THE truth either. It’s YOUR truth. This is just how they see it. That’s it. You can argue until you’re blue in the face, won’t change a thing.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:22 pm
  @nbk – Yep. Told you SLAM would do it. They are consistent in their Kobe over Wade rankings every year and they extensively overrate Durant (and now Rose). Dwight has become underrated. Rose will go at #4 though.

• MLK4Life Posted: Oct.24 at 12:23 pm
  Comment at 12:16 pm is not the real me.

• Tae Posted: Oct.24 at 12:23 pm
  Dont be mad. Whoever thought Wade was better than Kobe is wrong. He’s good but he’s no Kobe. I am shocked Rose is higher than him thou. N Lebron might be next, who knows. It should be Durant then Rose

• airs Posted: Oct.24 at 12:23 pm
  have we lost the idea that these are merely PROJECTIONS for the upcoming (hopefully) season?
  they’ve done this list for how many years now, and have proven commenters wrong with many of their picks how many times?
  if we’re basing this solely on the projection of 2011-2012, why would rose and durant having a better season than wade be so absurd?
  oh and i missed this on the CP thread but, i agree that rose shouldn’t be the number one point guard, yet should be ranked higher than CP altogether, which i think SLAM kinda messed up within their “postition rankings.”
  and don’t get your guys’ panties in such a bunch saying SLAM lost their credibility because you guy’s don’t agree. almost all ranking lists about basketball players ever made has bias and assumption factored into it.

• Caboose Posted: Oct.24 at 12:23 pm
  Cosign nbk. If this was the older days, we’d have the writers on the threads fighting their points. Now they sit back and watch us rip their (idiotic) rankings to shreds. Where’s the edge Slam was founded on? The energy? The wit? Don’t become sensationalist like ESPN…

• airs Posted: Oct.24 at 12:23 pm
  although, i don’t see kobe having a better year than dwade. nope.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:24 pm
  @marc – I would too if it were the NBA Finals lol. LeBron led them the whole playoffs though. That can’t be denied. Wade just exploded in the finals.

• Zogs Posted: Oct.24 at 12:25 pm
  Thank god this nig ain’t in the top4..,

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 12:27 pm
  Well don’t claim that’s the “definitive ranking” of the best NBA players because it sounds like it took some thought and research to come up with these rankings when in reality it was basically “who’s the most popular player” out there ranking. ESPN of all people, came up with a better ranking than Slam and when that happens, there needs to be some soul searching.

• Red Posted: Oct.24 at 12:27 pm
  Wade in another 2 years won’t even be in the top 10, his body will wear down & he’ll become worse. He’s good but he ain’t built like Kobe is.

• Lz - Cphfinest3 Posted: Oct.24 at 12:27 pm
  BTW, just wanted to welcome Maniac to the SLAM-Fam. I belive I had some harsh words for you on yesterday’s tread. I found you awkward, annoying and a know-it-all at first, but I have to say you finished the tread much better than you started imo. Although we still don’t agree on most of the stuff being debated, I can respect you holding down the fort and arguing your case(es), as long as one is willing to listen and not be pigheaded and arrogant there are a lot of good debates on this site and everyone can learn a lot from the other commentators, as most have a good understanding and knowledge of the game we all love. So welcome and I regret labeling you a maniac yesterday, also completely agree with you that it is ones argument and not age that should matter (I’ll be 30 in a second). Now it is back to work for me, but keep the discussion going guys I’ll check in to read sometime tonight.

• Tae Posted: Oct.24 at 12:31 pm
  Rose better not be no. 1. #4:Durant, #3:Rose, #2:Lebron, #1:Kobe. Based off next season. Rose is so high cus of tha MVP n wat he did for Chicago. Slam thinks he’ll continue to carry them. Kobe should be No. 1 cus of tha sweep n knowing Kobe’s drive and being under a new system, n healthy again….yea u do tha math

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 12:31 pm
  I am not even complaining about Kobe. I basically figured he would still be ahead of Wade – Putting Durant over Wade is inexcusable. Rose I sort of understand since people buy into the MVP hype so much, even the writers, but you would have to put some logic behind putting Durant here. His write up better be more then “he’s tall and he can shoot, and him and russell westbrook are still friends! he’s great don’t you love him” cuz at this point, that’s what I’m expecting

• UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER Posted: Oct.24 at 12:31 pm
  I WOULD CALL THIS LIST TRASH, BUT I DONT WANT TO INSULT MY GARBAGE.

• Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.24 at 12:32 pm
  I don’t comment as much anymore, but I do read them, still, and I think Maniac is far and away one of the better commenters on here. Just figured I’d throw that out there and give props where deserved.

• Andrew Woods Posted: Oct.24 at 12:33 pm
  @Maniac…i appreciate your point on lebron carrying the heat in the playoffs. The flack he gets for his finals play is deserved but ppl seem to forget that in every other round he was the best player in the league. Also, I cant wait to see if they rank drose over kobe. Which at this point I think is a possibility smh

• Bdiddy Posted: Oct.24 at 12:34 pm
  Dwade!!
  It’s all about the post season.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:34 pm
  @Lz – Thanks for the warm welcome

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:36 pm
  @Bryan Crawford – Thanks man.

• Tae Posted: Oct.24 at 12:37 pm
  @ Red tell em again. Wade is good but idk where people got off saying he’s better than Kobe. Yesterday some clown said Wade been better than Kobe since 08! Tha year he won MVP. But Wade wont stay healthy for long like u said

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:38 pm
  @Andrew Woods – Yeah Bron catches so much hate, but people ignore the fact that the Heat were in the finals because of him. Wade played like s*** before the finals. I think Rose will go at #4.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 12:38 pm
  58-24Record-25.5PPG-4.6APG-6.4RPG-1.5SPG-1.1BPG-50%Shooting
  55-27Record-27.7PPG-2.7APG-6.8RPG-1.1SPG-1.0BPG-46%Shooting

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:39 pm
  @Tae – Yeah some just think Wade is better, but that gets by me too. Kobe is easily better in my opinion. From day 1 till now.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 12:39 pm
  Gotta go. Be back later

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 12:40 pm
  Damn, I just came in and am about to head into a meeting, but I will say I think this is bananas.
  I had Wade ranked second behind only James.
  Anyone who knows me knows I’ve always felt that way.
  As a Bulls fan, I know many heads think I think my boy should be number one and all that.
  Nah, that ain’t me.
  Yo Bryan, that link you tweeted bout Jereme Richmond this morning made me sad.
  I met kid when he was a HS junior, my baby brother was a huge fan, and I had high hopes for dude, he seemed like a good kid at the time.
  Sad.

• Darksaber Posted: Oct.24 at 12:40 pm
  *rubbing hands together in anticipation of the fireworks this one will create*
  à la Heath in The Dark Knight.
  Btw Lang, if u are reading this; 3 goals in the last few mins of the derby? ManU lost their damn minds!

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 12:42 pm
  Can someone explain to me why Kobe is still considered the best SG by the masses? Don’t give me the “oh, he’s more skilled” line because apart from mid-range and 3pt shooting, Wade is better at everything else.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 12:42 pm
  Oh, the write-up is lovely though.
  Maurice always does his thing.
  Props.

• Duddy Posted: Oct.24 at 12:42 pm
  Give me a Wade/Howard combo over any duo combination of the guys that are higher on the list. **** u Slam!

• jimmer Posted: Oct.24 at 12:42 pm
  The Rose thing is odd. Wade is a better player. Kobe is a better player. Dirk hurts a team much more ’cause you just can’t match up. Lebron is a better player, but he might just be a 6’8 Derrick Rose. Don’t know if Durant hurts you more, but thats probably only because he is in a wierd place with that crazy streetballer/point guard thing on his squad. Lebron will be 1 on this list, but already 3 guys have gone that a bigger difference makers than Rose, and maybe even bron too. Not much time left for him to prove he aint just a show pony.

• GreenBall Posted: Oct.24 at 12:43 pm
  What a joke!! I was truly shocked, thought Wade would be #2 for sure

• q the kid Posted: Oct.24 at 12:44 pm
  I Love it! Maybe its a slap in the face for all these so called super friends that keep joining forces, and a message to the up and coming young guns like blake and wall that leading your own team to the promised land will ultimately lead to more respect in the basketball community. If the bulls win the title how many of these so called experts on this thread will give Rose his due respect?

• yada Posted: Oct.24 at 12:44 pm
  D.ROSE is carrying the bulls DWADE is not carrying the heat. drose is 23 wade is 30. drose is not injury prone wade is. END OF STORY

• marc Posted: Oct.24 at 12:44 pm
  Kobe is a better player but they are saying who is going to have a better season. There are wayyyyy too many factors that might affect the way kobe plays. I just think kobe should be #5. And he’s my favorite player. I’m hoping this season goes down as kobe’s best season. Key word hoping.

• Pve_2 Posted: Oct.24 at 12:45 pm
  Putting Kobe, whose days of winning individual awards are CLEARLY behind him, ahead of players who are primed to be in the MVP conversation next year (whenever that is) like Stoudemire, Melo, Paul, Deron, Dirk, Wade, and for damn sure Howard is going to cause a stir. Maybe that’s the point. It keeps readers coming back. Who knows. Non-constructive bickering about it isn’t helpful though. If you don’t like it, don’t read.

• Adam Figman Posted: Oct.24 at 12:46 pm
  My rankings didn’t look like this final version at all but I will say that yada (12:24) kinda has a point. Not with the first, but with the second and third sentence. *ducks*

• yada Posted: Oct.24 at 12:47 pm
  ppl are AFRAID of change. those dudes been on top for so long, when some new young guys come along “its no way they can be that good already” lol face it THEY ARE

• yada Posted: Oct.24 at 12:48 pm
  BTW i loveeee dwade!!!!!! chitown what it is

• airs Posted: Oct.24 at 12:48 pm
  there’s only so much research and logic you can put into a list when you’re literally looking into the future. could anyone have imagined rose at 22 winning an MVP?
  but youre right, there are stats and precedents that we can base projections on the upcoming year on, but in the end there really just is no concrete way of knowing who “number #1″ is.
  coughlebroncough

• marc Posted: Oct.24 at 12:49 pm
  If dwade has to share the spotlight with lebron wouldn’t that mean lebron should be next. These rankings are difficult to tell. I think slam should do a ranking at the end of the season too. Also a ranking for each position. Also who are we to say who the better player is? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The problem with this someone is always going to be bias to their favorite player. SLAM is proof.

• q the kid Posted: Oct.24 at 12:50 pm
  The funny thing is out of all of these players listed in the top ten, Rose may be the only player that does’nt read these rankings. Cp3, wade and d12 are probably tweeting or texting each other right now about how mad they are, hilarious……

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 12:52 pm
  Alright for all those saying Kobe’s the better player, explain yourself? Just because you say it doesn’t mean it’s true, point out in what parts of the game Kobe’s better than Wade in.

• BRAD Posted: Oct.24 at 12:52 pm
  The higher Rose climbs the more they whine……

• Duddy Posted: Oct.24 at 12:52 pm
  If Rose isn’t first, you’ll be underrating him. And Kobe Bryant has 5 rings. That alone should make up for not being a top 5 player anymore so u guys are totaly right putting him that high (btw, Shaq would have been a top 5 hadn’t he retired, right?). And KD can score. Which team needs an all-around player nowadays? Oh, You should consider Tom Brady for next year’s list. The guy has 4 rings and he’s married to Gisele Bundchen. Just WOW! U guys r so awesome!

• Dagger Posted: Oct.24 at 12:53 pm
  Yada: they aren’t. Are Durant and Rose two-way players? Do they excel on both ends of the court? Of course not. And that’s the real pity of these rankings: they preference popularity and basic offensive statistics over a complete game that includes defence. Wade has a bigger impact on the game than Durant or Rose because he can do it all, and that’s what these rankings totally fail to consider.

• marc Posted: Oct.24 at 12:55 pm
  Jtaylor21 i want to hear your explanation first because you make it seem like Wade is wayyyyy better then him

• bigmike100 Posted: Oct.24 at 12:56 pm
  if melo not top 5 u cnt put kd n da top 5 either… rest of da list:
  1)Bron
  2)Rose
  3)KD
  4)Kobe\
  im pretty sure dis is gon b it tho

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 12:56 pm
  I think Dwade was the best player in the NBA in the second half of the 08-09 season. He was ballin like hell that year..

• MUBWAR Posted: Oct.24 at 12:57 pm
  who did slam hire this year. I can’t believe Espn had better ratings this year. SADDDDDDDDDD

• BRAD Posted: Oct.24 at 12:57 pm
  @Dagger if he can do it all then he should have tried to do it alone, without Lebron and made Beasley more than an under achieving power forward when he played there

• marc Posted: Oct.24 at 12:58 pm
  If anything i would say they both bring equal amounts to the table. (If that makes any sense.)So lets say they switch teams kobe on the heat and dwade on the lakers. Who will have a better season?

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 1:00 pm
  I’ll handle it for Taylor, Wade was better at every aspect of basketball last season, scoring, passing, rebounding, defense – and his team won more games. How was/is Kobe better going forward? Is he going to suddenly become more efficient? (he shot more shots per minute then anyone else in the league last season, and still scored less points then Wade) Is he going to become a playmaker in the new Laker offense? (has he ever?) — It’s fine to say Kobe is more skilled then Wade, but when you look at what they do over the course of a season, its plainly obvious that Wade has been more productive & efficient on both ends of the court (aka better) over the last 2 years (last year was clear to anyone that watched both teams play more then once in a while)

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 1:01 pm
  When did I ever say Wade is way better? Wade is a better defender (on and off the ball), rebounder, passer, finisher, more efficient, slightly better scorer and better at getting to the line. The only things Kobe has on him is mid-range, 3pt shooting and FT shooting. It’s plain as day to me that Wade is the better 2guard but I seem to be in the minority.

• MUBWAR Posted: Oct.24 at 1:02 pm
  For all i care put Rose ahead of James now

• BRAD Posted: Oct.24 at 1:04 pm
  while wade is laid up with gabby somewhere getting it on and kd is somewhere playing in his 1000th pickup game this year with lebron and cp3, Rose is locked up in a gym getting stronger, working on weaknesses the old fashioned way. its no secret why he shows improvement every year in his game while others are still at their early stages of development

• marc Posted: Oct.24 at 1:05 pm
  Honestly I can understand your points but the on ball defense. I think they may be equal in that. And judging from the comment section you are the minority

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 1:05 pm
  ^
  Cosign.

• Showtime Posted: Oct.24 at 1:05 pm
  WOW>>WOW.. This is criminaly insane…THIS LIST IS VERY TERRIBLE(Sorry Caveman )

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 1:05 pm
  ^
  @nbk

• Tae Posted: Oct.24 at 1:06 pm
  Well if this is based off both ends of tha floor……again Kobe is better than Wade

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 1:06 pm
  Wade would have the better season if they switched teams. Imagine how efficient he would be playing next to 2 7footers, the steals he would get knowing that he has Bynum/Gasol behind him and the assists he would pile up? The man would be shooting 52% from the field and dishing out 6+ assists.

• marc Posted: Oct.24 at 1:10 pm
  @nbk so you don’t think that kobe will improve at all with his drive to win and be the best? just asking. It seems like your saying that he is basically done. I might be misreading your comment.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 1:10 pm
  BRAD clearly hasn’t been watching the summer games, considering Wade has been playing in a lot of them. And also, everyone that thinks about commenting about summer pro-am games, think about whether or not those are actually making these guys better. I would rather have my guys do what Derrick Rose is doing, staying in a gym by himself, and working on his weaknesses. Rather then doing dribble moves and dunks on matador defense infront of a high-school gym full of people.

• marc Posted: Oct.24 at 1:12 pm
  Damn that is true i cant even argue that. smh

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 1:13 pm
  No I’m saying Bryant is not going to improve to the point of becoming something he has never been. They Lakers are introducing an entirely new offensive system, and he is only getting older (coming off his what, 3rd straight off-season surgery?), imo, it is absurd to think he will be better then a 29 year old Dwyane Wade who is in his second season with LeBron James (they don’t have to get used to one another anymore, which is hugely underrated in all of this). If you rank Kobe ahead of Wade for fear of injury then that’s 1 thing, but if your going to try and say Kobe is more effective, then your drunk, wearing a Lakers jersey, or lacking medication.

• Caboose Posted: Oct.24 at 1:13 pm
  nbk, don’t engage Brad, I’ve tried. He’s a troll. But cosign that, the positive of the lockout is that guys who actually care about the game will have more time to put in work.

• marc Posted: Oct.24 at 1:16 pm
  Im not going to lie though i had dwade ahead on my list as well but just by one spot

• Double J Posted: Oct.24 at 1:17 pm
  Wow… didn’t JTaylor21 get enough yesterday? Please don’t start asking for people to tell you why kobe is a better player again. you’re just going to awaken another maniac.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 1:17 pm
  nbk, you realize that there are 24hrs in a day, right? I see where you’re coming from but just because those guys are playing in all those exhibition games (lasts about 2-3hrs) doesn’t mean that they aren’t working on their skills and getting better.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 1:18 pm
  like I said yesterday to Maniac, Bryant and Wade are still without a doubt, and competition, the two best shooting guards in the league. What separates them (imo, apparently) is that Wade is more effective over the course of an entire season, and he gives closer to maximum effort on both ends of the court. Is Bryant better then Wade when his legs are perfectly fresh and he isn’t tired? Probably, but how often are his legs even fresh? ANd when was the last time he looked fresh for a whole game, let alone 82+playoffs?

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 1:19 pm
  JTaylor, i realize that, I was just pointing out that judging a guys summer by exhibition games is a pretty quick way to look ignorant.

• marc Posted: Oct.24 at 1:19 pm
  lmfaooooo the end of your comment was hilarious no lie. But your absolutely right. I guess im just being bias.

• Meloman2.0 Posted: Oct.24 at 1:21 pm
  For once… I actually agree with Eboy. How quickly they forget

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 1:23 pm
  I am not even trippin on it. As Maniac proved yesterday, some people just value skill over production, which is fine. My issue is more about Durant (& Rose) because not only is Wade more skilled (at the sport of basketball as a whole) he is also more productive. Is Rose & Durant more fun to watch, or even more important to their team? Sure, but this list is about who is better.

• The Nupe Posted: Oct.24 at 1:31 pm
  Damn, after reading the old Top 50 threads, I realize that that this is like being stuck on a treadmill.
  Expending a lot of energy and not getting anywhere.
  The same arguments, the same insults. It’s kind of scary actually.
  Anyway, I liked the graph that discussed Wade’s driving ability. Well done.

• yada Posted: Oct.24 at 1:34 pm
  rose and durant deserve to be this high. face it, its a new wave of superstar talent!! heck i expect blake to be top 10 in a year, top 5 depending on how far he can carry the clips! let these young boys shine

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 1:36 pm
  Yea props to Mo Bob for his 3rd good write up of the top 50. Atleast the writing isn’t what is taking the hits.

• jdizzle Posted: Oct.24 at 1:42 pm
  LOL Wade >>> Kobe (at this point), Durant, Rose

• jmack Posted: Oct.24 at 1:43 pm
  Dwade at 5 that’s nuts he’s top 2 or three 4 sure look at the finals tape when it mattered most he deliveries

• Truth Posted: Oct.24 at 1:50 pm
  I like it. Going forward D.Rose will probably be a better player his jumper will be more refined after a summer of work and conditioning. The Bulls will probably get a two guard that’s better than Bogans and Noah and Boozer will both be healthy, hopefully. I can see Rose getting to the line 8-9 times a game with some new found MVP respect, upping the 3P percentage to around 35-37% and upping the assist a little. I can see a 26-28 & 8-9 assist a game with 4 rebounds and a highlight reel full of two hand tomahawks. Yep, I see it.

• Caboose Posted: Oct.24 at 1:58 pm
  Agree. Very solid writeup. I wish I could say the same for Sandy’s writeup yesterday. Dwight got the worst ranking and worst writing of the top 50. That could be a fun discussion.

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 2:00 pm
  ^
  U mean not-superman lol

• Ben Osborne Posted: Oct.24 at 2:01 pm
  @yada word

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 2:02 pm
  As far as I can remember the Dirk right up by Maurice has been the most enjoyable for me so far this year.

• Ben Osborne Posted: Oct.24 at 2:03 pm
  These comments may ruin the credibility of some of our commenters.

• Shecky Shabazz Posted: Oct.24 at 2:04 pm
  Worst rankings I’ve seen in a long time. Starting with Bogut at 49 all the way up to Rose being in the top 4. Y’all did get some right, but ESPNs’ rankings shouldn’t be better than yours. I expect more from SLAM. Love the magazines though…

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 2:06 pm
  The last few ranks may ruin the credibility of some of your writers.

• Caboose Posted: Oct.24 at 2:08 pm
  Cosign JT.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 2:08 pm
  Honestly Slam could give a sh*t how we feel about the rankings, as long as we express something.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 2:09 pm
  Couldn’t*

• yada Posted: Oct.24 at 2:10 pm
  Lol ppl get mad when someone is ahead of their favorite player. especially when a young guy is.so now slam has “lost credibility”. d.rose 3 years in. durant 4 years in. u MAD bro????

• SlyPig Posted: Oct.24 at 2:10 pm
  Gotta keep telling myself this is meant to be projections for next season, which is pretty stupid in itself, i think. With this in mind, how in the world is Kobe ranked ahead of Wade? Kobe seemed nearly done this past season, and i just can’t seem him turning back the clock.

• AD Posted: Oct.24 at 2:11 pm
  dwill is better

• AD Posted: Oct.24 at 2:11 pm
  dwill is better

• Eboy Posted: Oct.24 at 2:12 pm
  If you’re trying to be slick Ben, you’re missing the point. You come out and shout to the high heavens about the “most knowledgeable” fans in the game when sh*t suits you, or site traffic is popping. Look through the comments and see who’s questioning the way this list has been constructed. They’re among your most loyal and knowledgeable. If you can’t read criticism without taking a defensive posture, then fix your product. You can run insults past a 13 year old, but that sh*t went out years ago on adults. If cat’s didn’t love SLAM, no one would mind this poorly executed list and accept it. The people that love the brand expect more…better…smarter…more accurate representation. If that’s unacceptable to you, then it may be way many of your readers or saying the list itself is too.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 2:13 pm
  Just cause there’s “a new wave of superstars” doesn’t mean they should skyrocket to the top.
  I mean, we all agree Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O’Neal are three of the best of all time, but you’d get laughed at for ranking them ahead of Michael Jordan or Karl Malone back in ’97 or ’98.
  Who would’ve ranked LeBron ahead of Allen Iverson in 2005?
  Sh*t, who would’ve ranked Michael Jordan ahead of Julius Erving in 1987?
  Putting Derrick Rose and Kevin Durant above Dwyane Wade in 2011 is the same thing.
  Those two may end up being two of the all time greats, but they’re not better than Wade yet.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.24 at 2:13 pm
  * may be why

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 2:14 pm
  @Yada – my favorite player is Derrick Rose so your 2:10 comment means nothing to me.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 2:15 pm
  I’m happy we got OG Eboy to say what a lot of us should have.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.24 at 2:16 pm
  D-Rose AND KD deserve to be above Dwyane on this list. Kobe Bryant sitting even one spot above him is a shame.

• Jetfuel Posted: Oct.24 at 2:18 pm
  Dang! You can`t have a dude(durant) that that is an average defender over Wade that is one of the finest defenders in the L + his amazing offensive skill-set

• Ben Osborne Posted: Oct.24 at 2:18 pm
  @eboy: I voted Derrick Rose 2. Am I not credible?

• Eboy Posted: Oct.24 at 2:19 pm
  And, I know, I know, “then you don’t have to read it or comment on it or waste your time looking at it”….but that’s not what I want to do. I want to make sure that when ESPN is trying to gank your presentation, SLAM still whips it’s a*s. That’s what I expect.

• Ben Osborne Posted: Oct.24 at 2:19 pm
  Oh and site traffic is DEFINITELY popping. Thanks!

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 2:19 pm
  I mean seriously, what were y’all expecting when you put Brook Lopez (9) Spots higher then Andrew Bogut, you expect us to just accept that these ranking are headed for the edge of a cliff? Or shouldn’t we try and tell y’all to pump the breaks, or atleast blame you for killing us? Cuz there is already a lockout, this is basically all we got to care about till the season starts, and so far this list has primarily made us scratch our heads rather then nod in agreement.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.24 at 2:20 pm
  That’s where I would have had him too……and if you thought I was lumping everyone in the same category, then you and I had a misunderstanding.

• Ben Osborne Posted: Oct.24 at 2:20 pm
  You guys are all great, wish I had more time to be in comment section. I’ll try and answer more questions when I write #1 post.

• Ouse Posted: Oct.24 at 2:20 pm
  I love Slam & have done since 1994 but this list is a joke. This is worse than the SI or ESPN ones by far. Melo, Dwight, Dirk, Wade & Rose’s ranking are ridiculous. There is absolutely no way there are 4 players better than Wade. Cosign Eboy & Maniac. Ben, this is sad.

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 2:23 pm
  Eboy for president with the 2 12 pm comment.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 2:23 pm
  And the regulars, we are well aware y’all do this for the traffic, and we are happy to provide it. We are also aware that some of you feel or express an air of superiority over us lowly commenters – doesn’t mean we aren’t right to criticize the hell out of y’all.

• snapperpdx Posted: Oct.24 at 2:24 pm
  Some shockers this year, DWade at 5 is ok though, 1-4 are the best players on their teams…Bron has to be number one right? Is that even a debate?

• Adam Figman Posted: Oct.24 at 2:27 pm
  Enigmatic: The list is for this upcoming season. So they shouldn’t have had to prove themselves…the point is that the voters believe they will this season.

• UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER Posted: Oct.24 at 2:28 pm
  CO SIGN EBOY AND NBK. MY SCALP IS BLEEDING FROM ALL THE HEAD SCRATCHING IVE DONE.

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 2:28 pm
  Id be good for Slan if they made a list and the end of the season and see zho had the best season and put it next to this list.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 2:32 pm
  Nah, I don’t agree with Rose or Duant OR Kobe being ranked higher than Wade.
  Wade’s still a beast, and what’s tripping me out is most of the time I hate dude’s guts, but it must be the Chi-town connect boiling in me cause I feel like I need to defend my dude.
  I LOVE Rose, y’all know that, but Wade does his damn THING.
  He struggled every now and then, had some horrible shooting performances in the regular season but STILL managed to be more efficient than Kobe.
  And who’s f*cking with his D?
  He may not lock a cat up man to man like he used to but name another 6’4″ or under cat who’s out there blocking 7-footers like they were Earl Boykins?
  @Adam – I understand that this is projected for next season, but I truly believe Wade will still be better than Durant and Rose next season as well…unless next season is in 2013.
  And that still does not explain Kobe over Wade.

• BoWeezy24 Posted: Oct.24 at 2:32 pm
  Wade Is Good, Plus, He Has A Ring!

• UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER Posted: Oct.24 at 2:32 pm
  HOW CAN ROSE IMPROVE HIS NUMBERS FROM LAST SEASON? I SERIOUSLY DOUBT HE WILL SCORE MORE. MORE LIKELY, DENG AND BOOZER WILL SCORE A BIT MORE, AND ROSE WILL GET A SMALL BUMP IN ASSISTS. THATS ALL I SEE FOR ROSE. NOT THAT HE CANT GET BETTER, HE STILL HAS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT. BUT DWADE HAD A GREAT SEASON, AND THERES NO REASON TO THINK HE WONT HAVE A SLIGHTLY BETTER ONE THIS COMING SEASON. AND IF SVG CAN MAKE HIS SHOT HAPPY GUARDS FEED DWIGHT A LIL MORE, SWEET MERCIFUL JEBUS, HE WILL MAKE EVERYONE LOOK FOOLISH.

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 2:33 pm
  Who

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 2:34 pm
  I’m not surprised one bit with the way the rankings have played out because these are the same cats that placed Shaq 4th in their all-time 500 greatest players rankings. Don’t get me wrong Shaq is a great player (top-10 to be exact) but no way in hell should he be ranked above Magic, LB and KAJ on any list. Also they voted KAJ (the one guy that has as much as right as anyone to be labeled the GOAT) 7th!!!! The same things are basically going on right now (ranking by favoritism and popularity).

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 2:37 pm
  If this is a projection, y’all are saying Kobe Bryant is going to IMPROVE in whatever system Mike Brown employs (The Spurs system, he already said so)? Unless your trying to logically reason that Kobe was somehow better then Wade last season? Bryant is coming in at #3 on this list, Rose will be #2 (and once again will have the biggest comment section of anyone) – I hope y’all are ready.

• Mark-David Posted: Oct.24 at 2:39 pm
  I think he’s better than ‘Bron. He’s more clutch, and a much better shot. He should be among the top 3 along with D12 and kobe

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 2:40 pm
  That back and forth between Ben and Eboy was EXACTLY like the discussion on the old Top 50 back when there would be 100+ comments on every post and 300+ on several.
  Seeing those old arguments really has me thinking.

• Adam Figman Posted: Oct.24 at 2:40 pm
  Enigmatic: You can believe as you’d like but to believe someone thinking the opposite is THAT absurd that you’re honestly questioning credibility…well, that’s absurd, and I can tell you know it. Derrick is 23. There’s a solid argument to be made either way, clearly. Plus Kobe is out in Europe inserting steel knees into his legs and taking 1,000,000,000,000 jumpers a day…if he can stay healthy I think he can hold a spot in the top 4.

• UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER Posted: Oct.24 at 2:41 pm
  YEA NBK, I JUST DONT SEE HOW THEY EXPECT KOBE TO BE BETTER. AND, IN AN OFFENSE THAT WILL SUPPOSEDLY RUN THROUGH PAU AND BYNUM. I JUST DONT SEE IT. NONSENSE ON STILTS.

• SlyPig Posted: Oct.24 at 2:42 pm
  Kobe being above Wade for projected performance next season is outrageous, at least Rose is debatable

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 2:42 pm
  I mean, myself, JTaylor, Eboy, nbk, Tarzan, we all seem to be on the same page about this and we’re not some Johnny-Come-Lately commenters.
  Well, me and JTaylor maybe but still.

• Maurice Bobb Posted: Oct.24 at 2:42 pm
  Thanks guys for the kind words. I love everyone’s passion here whether they agree or disagree with this list. Half of the joy of following basketball is discussing the finer points of the game with like-minded individuals such as the new and O.G. commenters within the confines of SLAM online. Things will get heated as we discuss the Top 5 players in the world, that’s to be expected, but always remember, we all feel so strongly when it comes to the merits of this player or that player because we all LOVE this game and, I’m hoping, SLAM.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 2:44 pm
  Adam what about the fact that Rose and Bryant aren’t that great on the other end of the court? Does that not matter?

• Adam Figman Posted: Oct.24 at 2:46 pm
  Kobe Bryant isn’t that great on the defensive end? I’m out.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 2:48 pm
  I’m not getting on the writer (MBobb did a great job), well…expect for the cat that wrote the DHow article. I’m getting on the rankings and how they don’t match the criteria (based solely on projected 11/12 performance). So how anyone in their right mind thinks that Kobe’s somehow going to have a better season than Wade is beyond me.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 2:49 pm
  Lol let me know when I can jump in…

• Dagger Posted: Oct.24 at 2:49 pm
  Adam, you must have stopped watching the NBA a couple years ago.

• Lz - Cphfinest3 Posted: Oct.24 at 2:49 pm
  Mr. Ben O. A resounding co-sign to all the other old, wise and crafty veterans lead my prominent silverback Eboy.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 2:51 pm
  Oh we ain’t done yet, Adam!
  I’ma hit you up on Twitter!
  I’m joking, BTW.
  Half-joking…

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 2:53 pm
  Someone obviously watches the grizzles play and mistakes TAllen for Kobe or chooses to look away while the Lakers are on defense. That’s the only explanation I have for why people still look at Kobe as a great defender.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 2:54 pm
  OK, I’ll budge on Rose cause he’s the reigning MVP…and he’s Derrick Rose.
  I might twitch a finger on Durant, but I am standing my ground on Wade > Bryant.
  Brian Urlacher and Julius Peppers couldn’t move me on that one (Da Bears!).

• Adam Figman Posted: Oct.24 at 2:55 pm
  Kobe Bryant was on the NBA All-Defensive First Team in ’10-11, ’09-10 and ’08-09. And I love Tony Allen, too.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 2:55 pm
  Just saying… This is exactly what people did to Jordan when he came back with the 45 and wasn’t his old self. See where that went. Not saying Kobe will come back and destroy the league (i think he will), but it is a possibility given his intensity and drive. (You don’t need your young athleticism to be the best player in the league). Also, the Lakers are still title contenders regardless of what happened last season. You never write off a great player until they write themselves off.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 2:57 pm
  @Adam – Man they killed me for using All-Defensive teams. Don’t go there man lol. That is the point of no return. Apparently, those awards aren’t “credible”

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 2:58 pm
  Tony Allen deserved it over Kobe last year.

• Double J Posted: Oct.24 at 2:58 pm
  How about SLAM composes a Top 50 list from their fans and forum smashers? I’d love to see the madness that ensues from that. Do it SLAMONLINE.com

• Eboy Posted: Oct.24 at 2:59 pm
  Steve Nash was the MVP in 2005 and 2006 too.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 2:59 pm
  Next year there needs to be more transparency in terms of how y’all vote on this.
  We need cameras in the SLAM Dome like they have at the NBA Lottery…

• Adam Figman Posted: Oct.24 at 3:00 pm
  Enigmatic: That’s true. Kobe should’ve been Second Team. One of the 6-10 best defenders. In the NBA. And I quote: “what about the fact that Bryant [isn't] that great on the other end of the court?”

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 3:02 pm
  smh

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 3:02 pm
  Not when Kobe gets picked before TTony Allen.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 3:03 pm
  Man Kobe is not a great defender.
  He’s not. His lateral quickness has been a problem for years. Plus, he expends so much energy on offense, by choice, that his defense suffers. Tex Winter and Phil used to talk about. Same way they did about MJ.
  Kobe can still lock in on occasion, but that’s not what he does consistently. But, he’s so smart that he can coast and be fine. He has that kind of cushion and coaches respect him. That’s why he keeps making all-defense, not because he’s a better individual or team defender than Tony Allen, or even Deshawn Stevenson.
  Honestly, I’ve always thought Kobe was overrated as a defender, and while I know that’s not a popular opinion, I can’t think of any fully-developed offensive players that he’s ever “locked down” or even made struggle.
  Locking up Rajan Rondo and Russell Westbrook is not easy, but it’s not has hard as it looks when you’re as smart as Kobe and you have Bynum and Gasol behind you.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 3:03 pm
  And Enigmatic… Chi-town all day. I got love for Wade, but Kobe > Wade. Agree to disagree. Rose is my boy too. I played against him once in an AU game back when I was a freshman (he was a senior). Saw him play up close way more times too. Fast as f***, but I didn’t think he would be where he is now. I agree that people prematurely give the young the crown. (Isiah still the best out of the Chi though; just thought I might throw that in)

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 3:05 pm
  He isn’t, when I get back from lunch I’ll show it, and with accompanying articles highlighting why. Kobe use to e a great defender, but this is as y’all keep saying, a projection. Kobe hasn’t been even asked to be an elite defender since 08 – his all-defensive selection was clearly based on reputation. Just ridiculous for anyone to think he’s still an elite defender…can he be? Sure, but he isn’t – and he isn’t asked/challenged to be either.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 3:05 pm
  MVP’s aren’t credible either since everyone has an opinion for that matter.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 3:06 pm
  How bout Kobe shouldn’t have been on any defensive team for the past 3 seasons.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 3:06 pm
  And for the record, I don’t bash (most) writers on here, I never say stuff like “I’m done with SLAM”, “I’m canceling my subscription”, “I’m never visiting this site at all” cause if I did that would be a damn lie.
  I don’t feel that disagreeing with y’all on these rankings is “questioning your credibility”.
  Adam, what do you do for SLAM?
  You’re an Associate Editor?
  Well, good…then you’re credible. (—no sarcasm)
  But I can still disagree on where y’all place these players without questioning your credibility, because at the end of the day, it’s a matter of opinion, see?
  There’s no scientific fact to prove who is better than who (and Soop, if you bring up that mother*ckin’ Holliner, I SWEAR TO GOD…)
  So we good, SLAM, but I still disagree with y’all.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 3:06 pm
  Man, I can probably name 20 defenders better than Kobe. I know NBK can.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 3:07 pm
  @Allenp – “when you’re as smart as Kobe” … So basketball IQ doesn’t play a role in being a top defender in the league?

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 3:07 pm
  *Hollinger

• Adam Figman Posted: Oct.24 at 3:09 pm
  Enigmatic…guess I bunched your criticism in with some of the other OMG-freaking-out comments on here, so my bad. The disagreements are all good. And yeah, that’d be my job title, ha.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 3:09 pm
  Uh-oh…Maniac’s about to meet AllenP.
  And you thought nbk was tough…lol

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 3:10 pm
  Ranking players shouldn’t be about what they can do, it should be about what they actually do, or what you think they will do. And we all know Kobe won’t even be asked to act like an Elite defender, that is why they have Ron Artest & Matt Barnes – he’ll they even chose to pu Shannon Brown on elite players over Kove last season (supposedly to keep him from wearing out or getting hurt).

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 3:10 pm
  And I respect the hell out of Kobe. For real.
  But, I would give Wade the slight edge over him. And I would definitely expect Wade to be better than Derrick Rose next year and Kevin Durant, even with their different roles on their teams. Last year, even with Bron and Bosh riding with him, he still got his 25 ppg, with 5 assists on 50 percent from the floor.
  I figure he’s going to be doing that for at least two more years, possibly three.
  Unless Derrick Rose takes a leap into Iverson, Isiah, Magic territory (That means 30 and 8, or 22 and 12) he won’t be better than Wade. And neither will Durant.
  But, it’s not a big deal.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 3:12 pm
  Wanna try Allen, I’m down, wings only?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 3:12 pm
  @AllenP – Try me. Oooooo this is going to be fun. Name TWENTY defenders better than Kobe.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.24 at 3:12 pm
  Oh…and let me be clear. I’ve only read one poorly WRITTEN Top 50 piece this year. The work the dudes do to promote the players is still all good it’s just the way the dude’s shake out on it which make it hard to accept.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 3:15 pm
  @nbk – Jordan won first-team defense when Pip was guarding the best player. LeBron is going to guard the best player for now on for the Heat. I don’t see why you hold it against Kobe that Ron Ron or Barnes is going to do the same. Agree to disagree. We killed that argument dead yesterday.

• yada Posted: Oct.24 at 3:16 pm
  the bottom line is DWADE IS NOT CARRYING THE HEAT!!! dwade had an awful east conf finals and they still won!! had a pretty good finals and they lost. something tells me, its not about dwade for the heat. Rose carries the bulls. he dont play well they dont win POINT BLANK period

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 3:17 pm
  @nbk – Start with wings and take it from there. I’d love to see you find TEN wings better than Kobe defensively.

• Eboy Posted: Oct.24 at 3:18 pm
  So by design, Matt Barnes and Ron are better defenders than Kobe. ‘Cause, yeah, Bron IS a better all-around defender than Dwyane and yes, Scottie was a better all-around defender as Mike aged and spent most of his time scoring. That would make Kobe the third best winger defender on HIS TEAM…let alone among premier wings.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 3:18 pm
  I”m not getting into arguments. Reading the old posts has given me a new attitude today.
  We are having the same debates, which is crazy in a way.
  But I will say this Maniac, I didn’t say being smart wasn’t part of being a great defender, I said that when you’re smarter than everyone else you can cut corners and look good.
  That’s what Kobe has ALWAYS done. He isn’t a great defender in an individual sense, but like Bird before him, he understand what the team is trying to do and uses that to his advantage. Just like Dirk. Now, he’s better than both of them, obviously, and he has more physical gifts as well. So, he’s been above average his whole career. But not “great.” When I think of great or elite, I think of Ron Artest, Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier. I think of players who frustrate GOOD players, not flawed players. My definition might be different than everyone else’s though.

• yada Posted: Oct.24 at 3:18 pm
  its no way in hell a 30 year old wade with lebron on his team and bosh is gonna have a better year than a 23 year old rose who has to carry 75% of the offensive load for his team!!! stop it. YALL LIVING IN THE PAST

• Caboose Posted: Oct.24 at 3:19 pm
  Good to see Eboy make an appearance. To the Slam staff, I just honestly can’t see how Kobe will improve over last season. DRose and KD, yeah I disagree with but I’ll look past them. The Kobe thing bothers me, especially since he’s ranked higher than Dwight and Wade. Yeah, Kobe is the better player, but based on projection? Gotta give it to Wade. Cause you can’t use the logic, “Kobe is better so he’s higher” while simultaneously saying, “KD is gonna improve next year so he’s higher.” Just a logical fallacy. Insight would be nice. Thanks guys.

• LakeShow Posted: Oct.24 at 3:20 pm
  Maniac, glad to see your back. I read yesterdays comments and was thrilled to see that someone out there is ready to take on the usuals on Slam that think they know EVERYTHING. I have no problem with anyone taking Wade over Kobe. That’s not insane. What is insane is to freak out that Kobe is ranked ahead of D-Wade. They had similar seasons last year. One can argue either way one having a more productive season than the other. Some of the commentors need to relax a little bit. This list is bad, but it’s not ridiculous how these top rankings are. Some people put more value on skill and experience that others that like to write off those intangibles. If you think Wade’s better than Kobe, that’s fine, but don’t go ape sh*t when someone disagrees with that. It’s arguable which one of them will be the best 2 guard in the L next year.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 3:21 pm
  You guys are slightly overrating Wade. Like I said yesterday, his season was not super great either. He wasn’t a MVP candidate at all, played in LeBron’s shadow the whole season (even worse he disappeared a lot in Bron’s prescence), and was s*** in the playoffs until the finals. Before the finals, Wade and Dirk were not this overrated. Since then those two’s values have skyrocketed in so many people’s eyes.

• Nicolas Fleming Posted: Oct.24 at 3:21 pm
  I guess what you have to decide is what does a definitive ranking mean? I still think Kobe Bryant is the best player in the league. There isn’t one player I would take before him. That being said, in terms of productivity, stats and efficiency, Kobe is at the latter part of the top 5 in the NBA.
  I guess that is where you have to start making your arguments. Is DWade at the back of the top 5 because Rose, Durant, Bryant and LeBron are their respective squads go-to guy? I just have a sneaking suspicion that the best players in the game illicit strong emotion and it’s hard to separate from year to year.
  I ain’t mad at the rankings my favorite writers said the Lakers would beat the Mavericks in 6, too. When you make it to the top 5 in the NBA, the rankings from there are just numbers anyway.

• Off The Backboard Posted: Oct.24 at 3:22 pm
  Based on last year, there is no way Kobe is outperforming Wade. Wow. That’s two terrible rankings in a row. Kobe is likely going to drop below 25 ppg, he was barely around that number last year, its a miracle he reached 25.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 3:23 pm
  20 wings? That is tougher. I was thinking everybody, but I’ll try with wings. Might not get to 20 though.
  Ron Artest
  Shane Battier
  Luc Richard
  Trevor Ariza
  Tony Allen
  Josh Smith*
  Joe Johnson
  Gerald Wallace
  Luol Deng
  Keith Bogans
  Ronnie Brewer
  Lebron James
  Dwyane Wade
  Shawn Marion
  Deshawn Stevenson
  Aaron Affalo
  Chuck Hayes*
  Andre Igoudala
  *means that the player guards a wing, but designation as a wing may be questionable

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 3:25 pm
  Wade and Kobe had similar years only if you COMPLETELY

• yada Posted: Oct.24 at 3:26 pm
  kobe should be next!! durant bron and rose top 3. im for that!!

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 3:26 pm
  Tony Allen, Shane Battier, Ron Artest, Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, Thabo Sefolosha, Gerald Wallace, Nicolas Batum, Luol Deng, Aaron Afflalo, Tayshun Prince, Grant Hill, Shawn Marion, Andre Iguodala, Luc Richard MBah Amoute, Off the top of my head are all consistently better defenders then Bryant. Is Bryant better then some of them at his very best, yes, but not routinely. That’s 15 wings off the top of my head I’d take over Bryant to play defense for a whole game/season.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 3:26 pm
  @LakeShow – I don’t have a problem with Wade over Kobe either. It’s the REASONS that people are giving. Stats are worthless unless they are read in context. Kobe is getting older and losing athleticism, but so is Wade. Wade is not getting any better and neither is Kobe. It was never widely considered Wade was better so how has this magical thing come about that he is now? Even crazier, since 08? People are writing Kobe off too quick. That’s all I’m saying.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 3:27 pm
  Wade and Kobe had similar years if you COMPLETELY ignore shooting percentage, shots per game and blocks per game. Then they had really similar years. If you don’t ignore those three categories, which I didn’t, then Wade had a better year and projects to have an even better year next year. Well, if we have a next season.

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 3:27 pm
  Plus Scalabrine

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 3:27 pm
  Lakeshow, there’s no argument. All the numbers were favored in Wade’s direction when it comes to productivity. You can’t say that Kobe’s more productive (no numbers to back it up) and I’m not even talking about the defensive end. Basically, Wade is the more productive player on offense and on defense. It’s not “hating” towards Kobe or acting like we know “everything” but the numbers and game-tape supporting our assertion of Wade being the best SG.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 3:29 pm
  Forgot about Tayshun Prince, Batum, and Thabo.
  I think Grant just works harder, but he’s not better than Kobe as a defender.
  Take a look at my list and give me your thoughts.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 3:30 pm
  @AllenP & nbk – I didn’t want to limit you guys to wings. You didn’t make that claim so don’t go out of your way; nbk suggested it and I just took it for face value. I don’t want to argue centers vs wings because a center 8 or 9 times out of 10 will have more impact defensively anyway. I’ll check the names and think about it.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 3:33 pm
  I was actually going to paranthesis that next to Grant’s name that he’s only better cause he works harder – still better though imo – he guarded 4 positions last season, from Derrick Rose to Dirk Nowitzki, and did a stand up job against all of them (he obviously didn’t shut them down)

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 3:36 pm
  @AllenP – I’m looking at the names and I see we have different views on what a “better” defender is after reading what you just said about what you think a defender is. I posted yesterday in the D12 section about there being 3 types of defenders. Hold on I’ll go get it and paste it here because I don’t want to go name by name and we argue to a standstill because of a silly misunderstanding.

• Lz - Cphfinest3 Posted: Oct.24 at 3:37 pm
  At this point Kobe is way overrated as a defender, of the top of my head wings who are better defenders than Kobe today (not years ago when Kobe was a great defender): Iggy, TAllen, Shane Battier, G. Wallace, G. Hill, D. Wade, T. Sefolosha, L. James, M. Pietrus, N. Batum, Bogans, L. Deng, Ronnie and Corey Brewer, Artest, S. Marion, D. Stephenson, Caron Butler, T. Prince, Raja Bell (maybe) and George Hill (maybe).

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 3:38 pm
  Well, the list is a result of the all-defense nods. Which is for the six best defensive guards in the league.
  So really, I should have limited it to guards, point and shooting.
  If I extend the list to all players, and include bigs and points, Kobe wouldn’t even be top 30. He might, MIGHT, make the top 40.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 3:39 pm
  Excerpt: There are different types of defenders. The first is the group where they LEAD the defense (most of the time it is the big man, but you have the rarities such as Jordan, Pippen, and Kobe, LeBron now that he anchors the defense in Miami). The second group are great one on one defenders (Tony Allens, Bruce Bowens, etc..). The third group consists of guys who get good defensive stats, but are not necessarily great one-on-one (Allen Iverson, etc..).

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 3:39 pm
  Allen I’m with your whole list except Joe Johnson, and Chuck Hayes (he played almost exclusively at Center last season, so I haven’t really seen him check a wing) and I’m disappointed I forgot Deshawn Stevenson and Ronnie Brewer. Trevor Ariza I just wasn’t comfortable with because he has so much trouble with muscly wings but I can’t really argue against him past that.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 3:41 pm
  That first group has intangibles that can’t be measured and carry a bigger load than just the Artests and Bowens. We seem to differ in what we value from defenders.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 3:43 pm
  Don’t start this anchor conversation again, Kobe is the 4th mOst imprudent defensive player on the Lakers and their vocal leader. That’s as far as it goes.

• Lz - Cphfinest3 Posted: Oct.24 at 3:43 pm
  *didn’t see Allenp’s list before now, didn’t refresh. I forgot some I see… My post was a response to Figman at 3:00 PM. Damn multi-tasking is hard hahaha…

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 3:43 pm
  Maniac, not again!!!!!!! Please spare us the “kobe anchors laker’s defense” line, please or I’m going to off myself by listening to waka flacka fame for an hour straight.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 3:44 pm
  LZ
  I wouldn’t have included Caron because of the injury.
  I’m on the fence about the ones you’re on the fence about, and I might disagree on Pietrus.
  Looking at my list, I would remove Trevor Ariza and Joe Johnson in hindsight. They aren’t better than Kobe, probably about equal.
  I would add Corey Brewer, Prince, Thabo, Batum.
  That’s still right around 20 people. And a few more who are borderline. And that’s just the wings.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 3:45 pm
  Important*. Effin iPhone – you can’t call Kobe a great defender for his leadership qualities just like you can’t call Tom Thibodeau a great defender because of his defensive intellect.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 3:46 pm
  @nbk – Terrible analogy. Try again lol

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 3:47 pm
  Man, I am so SICK of the whole “Derrick Rose carried the Bulls last year” BS.
  Yes, there were stretches where he did it all by himself offensively.
  But to think that Rose carried the team to 62 wins and everyone else just piggie-backed on him like the Sixers did with Allen Iverson in ’01 is just wrong and stupid.

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 3:47 pm
  Thibs is the DPOY lol

• LakeShow Posted: Oct.24 at 3:47 pm
  The better shooting % for Wade is the biggest flaw that you can lob on Kobe vs Wade. D-Wade is not a better passer, they are equal in that regard. They are equal rebounders. D-Wade had a big rebounding season, but I don’t expect him to increase that number and i’m sure it will drop a little. The block a game that Wade gets over Kobe in my eyes is not really that special. It’s not like Wade is always having 3,and 4 block games. He usually gets up once a game to get a big block. That doesn’t make him a better player than Kobe just because he can jump higher and get a block a game. D-Wade is a bit better at playing the passing lanes. Kobe is a little bit better at man on man defense. Kobe is losing a step due to age but so is D-Wade and he relies on athleticism allot more than KB. I have no problem with one having a preference of D-Wade over Kobe or vise versa, but lets stop this non-sense about D-Wade obviously being a better player than Kobe last year or this year. They both bring similar, but different things to the table. The choice is yours. As far as defense goes…. Obviously Kobe is not as consistent as 10 or 15 other wings in the L. Does he deserve 1st team all defense? No. Is he one of the better defenders in the NBA(Top 20)? Yes.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 3:48 pm
  @JTaylor21 & nbk – I’m not going there again because you guys bash me about “knowing it all”, but as soon as I state valid points, you guys SLAM me and say I don’t consider what you’re saying. Kind of hypocritical. I’m not about to be public enemy numero uno again. I’ll pass. My opinion stays the same though.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 3:48 pm
  Corey Brewer has trouble off the ball. Kobe is a way better help defender then Brewer. That is why I don’t want to call him a better overall defensive player, yet.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 3:49 pm
  Thibs would stop LeBron on D.
  OK, no he wouldn’t…

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 3:49 pm
  I saw your comment yesterday.
  Kobe is the vocal leader on the Lakers team, period. In every single facet of the game, he is the undisputed leader and alpha dog.
  But, he isn’t a better defender than Artest, and he might not be a better defender than Matt Barnes. And the help Bynum and Gasol provide at the rim is INFINITELY more important that the jaw juts and exasperated smirks Kobe provides on the perimeter.
  Just like the anchor Shaq provided, even lazy Shaq, was more important than all Kobe’s theatrics back in the day.
  Only the most amazingly athletic teams can get away without having a big man “anchor.”
  Right now I can only think of the Grizzlies as a team without crazy athleticism and a dominant defensive big who is still stout on defense. Every other team has athletes at most of the positions or a dominant big.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 3:51 pm
  I called you a know it all yesterday because when I joined the conversation you were calling people idiots because they didn’t agree with your opinion. Nobody has slammed you today that I’ve noticed, if anything your getting the warmest welcome I have ever seen to a newbie.

• LakeShow Posted: Oct.24 at 3:53 pm
  Maniac is right about Kobe being the Anchor of the Lakes defense. That is now slowly turning to Bynum,(because he was told by the coaching staff he needed to start embodying that big center stuff) but he still has no clout as far as shouting things out to KB and Pau and D-Fish. KB is the one who does all the talking (and I mean all of the talking) on Defense. He is the one who organizes them and gets everyone in the right position. He is as good of a defender as anyone else on the Lakers besides Ron. Is he their second best defender every game? No. Is he sometimes the best and sometimes the 4th best? Yes.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 3:55 pm
  Wade’s block is HUGELY important to the Heat.
  He and LeBron and Joel Anthony provide the shotblocking on that team.
  Actually, Wade was second on the team in blocks per game.
  That is massive man. Massive. He is a presence out there.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 3:56 pm
  No one is bashing you. I’m just saying spare us “the kobe’s an anchor” talk because we had the exact same argument yesterday (getting repetitive) and almost everyone disagrees with you on that statement.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 3:56 pm
  @LakeShow – Thanks for backing me up on that one. Yeah Wade has debate no doubt, but the REASONS people give are not good. At all. I’ve been saying that the whole time. He may not deserve 1st team. I don’t know. I’m not arguing that he does. I’m arguing that the defensive team consists of 10 spots. Kobe is only taking up one. There is no respect to the positions so if Wade were sooooooo much better on defense, he would have made it.

• Lz - Cphfinest3 Posted: Oct.24 at 3:57 pm
  Allenp, I’m leaving for a meeting will be back in about an hour.

• LakeShow Posted: Oct.24 at 3:57 pm
  Allen….I disagree. Jaw juts go way further than your giving credit

• marc Posted: Oct.24 at 3:58 pm
  There is always going to be different viewpoints on these rankings. Who are we to say whose better. They are both great players and future hall of famers. PS i agree with @lakeshow

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 3:59 pm
  @nbk & JTaylor21 – Well that’s what it seems like, but I’m not going there. I’ll let LakeShow lead that argument because I’ve exhausted it and no one can comprehend/agree.

• triyo Posted: Oct.24 at 4:01 pm
  the 2 best players in the L play for the Heat. Kobe is the 2nd best SG ever and Dwade is 3rd, but right now….Wade is way better and i mean that as in he is better at every single part of the game. Kobe is a legend, but he is NOT better than Wade…and i wont even comment on the fact that Rose and Durant are ahead of him….asinine

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:02 pm
  @AllenP – Blocks are overrated. You’re acting like Wade is the Hakeem of blocks or something. Those are weak-side blocks that he is getting… Sort of like LeBron’s if he isn’t chasing you down. Neither’s blocks are comparable to those of a big man. Stats are soooo misleading and those are bases of your arguments for Wade. Like Wade’s passing lanes steals. They don’t tell the whole story.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 4:03 pm
  Having Lakeshow in your corner in a Lakers conversation is like having my mom in your corner in a debate about whose smarter between me and Sir Isaac Newton.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 4:03 pm
  Believe whatever you may but the numbers don’t lie. Also, I love how people are quick to dismiss stats whenever they disagree with your argument but they are just as quick to use certain stats that back up their argument/favorite player. Oh, all I hear all day long is kobe dropped 81, had 40pts in 10straight games, avg. 35ppg but as soon as I say Wade avg. more PPG, RPG, SPG, Blks and shot better from the field last season, stats are useless?

• LakeShow Posted: Oct.24 at 4:03 pm
  Allen, who’s block is vastly more important, D-Wades block a game or Durants? I know who’s in more impressive, but they both got a block and ones lauded as a defensive juggernaut the other is a liability…

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 4:04 pm
  Blocks are overrated?
  They erase two points for the other side.
  How can that not be important?

• LakeShow Posted: Oct.24 at 4:05 pm
  nbk quit attacking me. I’m serious. Mind your self and worry about yourself. I have nothing negative to say about you other than you think you are always right. Just argue me on facts and enough with the Lakeshow is a homer blah blah okay I would appreciate a debate without jabs thank you.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 4:06 pm
  If you base you argument for why someone is better on All-Defense, All-star, All-NBA or MVP awards, then your argument lacks heft.
  I’m not saying those things are meaningless because they aren’t. I’m saying that can’t be your trump card in a discussion with serious basketball people. You lose all credibility when you do that. At least in my opinion.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:06 pm
  Lmao at @nbk … Good point, but all is fair in love and war

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 4:07 pm
  Wades block typically swings or pushes momentum, Durant’s results in another shot attempt (he blocks jumpers usually)

• LakeShow Posted: Oct.24 at 4:08 pm
  Enig, they can be 2 points but not always. Lets say a block erases 1 point per. More accurate.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:09 pm
  @JTaylor21 – Numbers do lie. Do I have to post that quote again? Tell me this. Before all these stats whores (Hollinger, etc..) showed up, how did the world decide who was the better player? It was this thing called logic and reasoning. They concluded from what they saw with their own two eyes. I don’t see how one could make the case that Wade is better without using stats. That’s the only thing he has.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 4:10 pm
  I’m not lauding Wade as a defensive juggernaut solely because he gets a block.
  I’m saying that it’s part of what makes him special and important on that team.
  When the leading shot blocker on your team averages 1.2 blocks per game and you average 1.1 as a guard, that’s impressive. Hell, LeBron averages fewer than a block a game and he’s a superior defender to Durant.
  Wade’s block, in the overall scheme of things, is very important because of the scarcity of shotblockers on that team.

• Slcik Ric Posted: Oct.24 at 4:11 pm
  Damn slam, you’re keeping the surprises coming huh?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:11 pm
  I’m saying that blocks and all other stats are overrated if they are not analyzed in proper context. You can’t just say that player x averages y per game so he is clearly better than player z. It doesn’t add up.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 4:13 pm
  Lakeshow your clearly bias, he’s new, had to tell him, no way better then a joke. Sorry you got offended. To bad you weren’t in that conversation yesterday when I was askin where you were so you could talk to Maniac in a less abrasive way then i was.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:14 pm
  @AllenP – I’m not saying that stats are the main ingredient and neither are All-NBA teams and other accomplishments. A good mixture of everything is the key to making a well informed conclusion.

• LakeShow Posted: Oct.24 at 4:15 pm
  Fair point Allen. I’m just saying that a block and a steal can be misleading. Doesn’t mean they aren’t important or that we shouldn’t look at them, but if Durant is averaging similar defensive numbers we shouldn’t go over board with talking about defensive stats meaning a whole lot. D-Wade imo was a better defender than KB last year. BUT, Tony Allen blows both them out the water with his lock down defense. His stats aren’t ultra impressive but we all agree he is the best for the most part.(perimeter wise)

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 4:15 pm
  Ummm…..I not just focusing on stats. I’ve pointed out many times what wade does better than Kobe on the court but it seems to fall on deaf ears. Also, the numbers pointed to MJ being the undisputed best player during the late 80s and 90s, Magic/Bird in the 80s, KAJ in the 70s, Wilt in the 60s so……numbers can’t be discounted just because they back up someone else’s arguments.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 4:16 pm
  The Thunder have a dominant rim defender who plays massive minutes.
  The Heat do not.
  Therefore, Wade’s role as rim defender is more important.
  And there is nothing wrong with blocking shots from the weakside.
  Most shotblockers get their blocks from the weakside.
  It’s called a defensive rotation.
  Weakside=non-ball side. Strong side= ball side.
  Very few players are driving the ball directly at a shotblocker waiting in the paint. Shotblockers leave their man and their side to help and contest.
  WTH.

• yada Posted: Oct.24 at 4:17 pm
  MANIAC is telling the TRUTH

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 4:17 pm
  Non-Nautical Definition of Anchor: “A source of security or stability.” – Knowing that, and reading this fact, The Lakers give up LESS points when Kobe Bryant is on the BENCH. With the opposite, The Lakers give up MORE points when Andrew Bynum is on the Bench. Same with Pau Gasol. – Would you consider a defense more stable when they are giving up less points, or more points? That should wrap that up right?

• LakeShow Posted: Oct.24 at 4:19 pm
  nbk, name one thing i’m clearly bias on. I’ll wait. Try and dig something up. Me saying that I would take Kobe over Bron is not bias. That is what my choice would be. I admit Bron is the greater talent today. My choice for who I would want over the other for the course of a game is Kobe thats preference not bias.

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 4:19 pm
  Lakeshows bias aint that bad or a Laker fan.

• yada Posted: Oct.24 at 4:19 pm
  im sorry but i saw tayshaun prince name. mannn tayshaun prince aint locked nobody up since 2004

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 4:20 pm
  I provided context.
  I explained twice why Wade’s block was important. Just like his style of defense (Ball-hawking and pressure defense) is more important than Kobe’s approach because it’s key to how Miami plays defense as a team.
  Anyway, I provided a list of solely wing players to explain my comment.
  That’s all I planned to do.

• Slcik Ric Posted: Oct.24 at 4:20 pm
  @enigmatic Uh, no its not, He Carried the offense at times? he was the offense, did you watch the heat series, nine times out of ten if D.Rose struggles,the bulls lose.

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 4:21 pm
  for, damn typing with qwerty.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:22 pm
  @JTaylor21 – Thanks for bringing history up because I was just about to. You are just focusing on stats. Let’s start with the 60s. Wilt is not CLEARLY the best of the 60s. The best? Maybe; but not clearly. He averaged more ppg and rpg and probably would have gotten more blocks some analysts say (he even had that year when he led the league in assists). People still to this day have valid arguments for Russell over Wilt so those numbers are not as concrete as you make them seem. Even Oscar’s stats were brilliant (we all know his triple double years) and have to be looked at in context. THE PHRASE “TRIPLE DOUBLE” wasn’t even used back then. No one payed attention to it and STILL knew he was a great player. This stats crap have people taking it for face value. On to the 70s…..

• yada Posted: Oct.24 at 4:23 pm
  TY ppl kill me with these #s!! they will argue the #s over what i can see with my own eyes to tell me who is the better player. the blog and stat guys have taken over how ppl think of ball

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 4:25 pm
  JTaylor and Enig
  are y’all still doing that 2K12 League?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:27 pm
  Kareem was never a super stat guy. People still knew he was the best center. Doc was a MONSTER in the ABA. He got the to the NBA on the Sixers and willingly dropped his STATS to remain a team player and play with two other 20ppg scorers. Everyone still acknowledged Erving as the top perimeter player (until Bird got in the league); even though his STATS weren’t like they were in the ABA. He remained the same effective player… Meaning stats does not equate to being truly effective all the time. On to the 80s…..

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 4:27 pm
  This is all opinion. Very few definitive conclusions because it’s a subjective topic.
  But, you should be using numbers and your observations. Just like with most things in life.
  The main reason I’ve heard for why Kobe is better is because people believe he’s a leader and he’s a proven champion.
  Cool.
  But Wade is a champion. And a leader.
  And he’s several years younger.
  Come on now.

• airs Posted: Oct.24 at 4:32 pm
  wait ppl are starting 2k12 leagues??
  i been TRYING to do that. sheesh.
  but anywyas, is there really a league? haha

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 4:32 pm
  Count me in on that 2K lg, for the next 2 months playing 2K will be the closest thing I’ll have to playing bball..

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:32 pm
  Sure Magic & Bird had nice STATS, but that wasn’t the reason people loved them. If you history, you know Bird was widely accepted as better than Magic for the first half of the 80s. Bird kept telling people that he didn’t think he was better than Magic… but not because of STATS. They led their teams with intangibles and had the stats/awards to back it up. Jordan was not accepted as better than either until the super late 80s and super early 90s(when Bird’s back gave in and it was more of a Kobe vs LeBron thing back then with Jordan vs Magic). Magic and Bird were getting older and Jordan was the young cat with the ultra high scoring averages. STILL it wasn’t the fact that Magic and Bird were more of triple double threats compared to Jordan, it was their intangibles…. Something stats can measure. On to the 90s……

• LakeShow Posted: Oct.24 at 4:33 pm
  Anyone wanna start a 2k11 League? Eh? Anyone? Eh? *Crickets*

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 4:34 pm
  Wait, Kareem wasn’t a stat guy?
  Methinks you should go checkout Kareem’s numbers from the Bucks. 35, 17 and 4.6 assists. They didn’t keep block numbers but he was probably putting 3.5 a game, maybe four since that’s what he averaged when they started collecting them.
  Kareem was an awesome stat guy. Lol.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 4:35 pm
  I think advanced stats are popular because they tend to be right more often then traditional opinion based analyses. Ask Dallas. — You could also look at the winning % of those teams that use analytics vs those that don’t. The only real problem with advanced stat from a team scouting perspective is, advanced stats make every team look even when really they should be adjusted for the various “advantages” good teams have over their opponents. I believe teams that use Analytics typically struggle more against teams with above .500 records then they probably should given their average win %. If that makes sense, or if you care.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 4:36 pm
  Maniac
  you’re repeating yourself
  and not making a point in regards to this discussion.
  Wade is the leader on his team. He’s the most clutch player.
  What more does he need to do if he combines that with awesome stats?
  Kobe has the most talented team in the League with the biggest payroll.
  And they got ROLLED by the Mavs. ROLLED.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 4:37 pm
  Bird was MARKETED as better then Magic because he was really good & white. Hate to say it, but that’s why that opinion was as widespread as it was at the time. Bird was “the great white hope” as people dubbed him.

• leowheezy Posted: Oct.24 at 4:37 pm
  Kobe # 1sg in the L.. enuff sed

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:37 pm
  Actually I’m not even gonna keep on with it. I think I’ve proved my point and @nbk – Once again you aren’t using context. You said the Lakers give up less when Kobe is on the bench. You ever thought about which time of the game this might be? A proper analysis would conclude that Kobe is on the bench while the 2nd units are playing AND/OR garbage time. More than likely, more points would get put on the board with the starters in. Come on man be reasonable.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 4:38 pm
  ^Look at how NBK has grown.

• airs Posted: Oct.24 at 4:38 pm
  hold up, enig, you don’t think rose carried the bulls last year??
  i know you like to come off objective and not a homer on here but CMON.
  take rose off that team and its 40 wins tops, if youre lucky. i don’t care if phil jackson ran that team.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 4:39 pm
  lol, took me a while

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:40 pm
  @AllenP – When I say Kareem wasn’t a stat guy, I mean that people didn’t go around shouting out his stats to prove his greatness. It was obvious he was the best center because people concluded that with their own eyes (plus the guy’s college resume and Bucks championship). Only stat that comes to mind when I think of Kareem is 38,387. Wilt is a stat guy.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 4:43 pm
  @AllenP – I’d love to if we get more bodies.
  @Slic Ric – Did I see the Miami/Bulls series?
  You know who you talking to? I don’t miss a Bulls game.
  He wasn’t the whole offesne.
  Come on, now.
  Y’all act like he was the only one ever doing the scoring.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:43 pm
  @nbk – Not true at all about Bird. Magic wasn’t the #1 guy on his team in the early 80s. Kareem was. Bird was the leader of the Celtics, got the title in 81, and beat the Lakers in 84.. that all helped. Maybe his race played a role in it, but he earned the right to be over marketed.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:44 pm
  I’m up for a 2K league

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:44 pm
  2K12 though

• J Mac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:45 pm
  +1 EBOY

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 4:45 pm
  Kobe played 33 minutes a game last season Maniac. That’s 15 minutes a game x 82 = 1,230 Minutes without Bryant on the court, and the defense was better. Bynum played 54Games x 27MPG (barely half the game)= 1,458Minutes. So for about as long as Bryant was out of the Game, Bynum actually played. Most of those minutes were with Kobe, we can agree on that right? So Kobe played 33MPG x 82G = 2,706Minutes. 2,706 is 1,248 MORE minutes then Andrew Bynum played last season. But the defense was STILL 4 points worse per 48 minutes without Bynum. Despite almost double that time, Kobe “the broken anchor” Bryant was on the court.

• LakeShow Posted: Oct.24 at 4:45 pm
  ^^Bah commmon! 2k11 is where it’s at! lol

• Nicolas Fleming Posted: Oct.24 at 4:46 pm
  Maniac is a Bill Simmons guy.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 4:46 pm
  Kareem was the #1 guy until the finals, game 6, 1980.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:48 pm
  @Nicolas Fleming – Please don’t ever disrespect me like that again lmao. Love Simmons care for the game, but he has got some mad issues. Only compare me to Simmons in terms of knowledge (doubt I compare to him there). Was that a compliment?

• Slcik Ric Posted: Oct.24 at 4:49 pm
  @enigmatic, yeah I know you saw it, but did you realize Rose is the only one who can consitently create offense, that is why I say he is the offense because the bulls relied on him so many times last season to bail them out and create a shot.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:49 pm
  Lol at Kareem only being #1 until 1980.

• Max Posted: Oct.24 at 4:50 pm
  We allready have 5 I think, I got some friends that used to have good leagues on 2k11.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:50 pm
  @LakeShow – Hop on that 2K12 train lol.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 4:51 pm
  And for the record Maniac, I know your real young so you may not know this, but the NBA was struggling going into the 80s. STRUGGLING. And they over-marketed BOTH, Magic and Bird. I realize Kareem was the captain of that Lakers team, but after that finals performance the Lakers began to build around the “showtime” idea. And if it weren’t for Michael Jordan, Magic and Bird would have been what kept the league alive.

• Nicolas Fleming Posted: Oct.24 at 4:51 pm
  @Maniac it was just an observation regarding calling people stat guys. It sounded like a Simmons argument. Glad to know that you wouldn’t align your thoughts with his though.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 4:51 pm
  Yeah, Kareem was a BEAST.
  And Magic was blessed to have him.
  But, Bird had talent too. Everyone knows the race angle was huge in that debate, even if the players didn’t focus on it.
  And, I’m not saying people were wrong to put Bird above Magic. Not at all. But The Great White Hope angle was real. Very real.

• GC6 Posted: Oct.24 at 4:53 pm
  D wade should be higher than Kobe he plays better D then Kobe he protects the rim well he gets to the basket easier than Kobe have you noticed how many dunk attempts Wade blocks kobe just moves out the way Wade has a better winning attitude.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:54 pm
  @nbk – Don’t insult my basketball knowledge. I already talked about the struggling of the NBA in the 70s going into the 80s. That was Kareem’s team until the mid 80s. No such thing as over marketing when they are legit superstars. Do Kobe and LeBron get “over marketed” today?

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 4:55 pm
  Slic Ric – I know what you’re trying to say, yes indeed one of the biggest issues the Bulls need to address is that no one besides Rose can consistently create for themselves and others.
  I agree with that.
  I’m merely trying to say I disagree with people who say Rose is the ONLY reason they won 62 games last year, completely downplaying what everyone else brought to the table.
  And the Bulls usually did struggle when Rose did, but thanks to their solid coach and supporting cast they were able to get by when he struggled at times as well.
  November 11th against the Blazers Rose had 16 points. Bulls won.
  November 8th. Nuggets. Rose had 18 on 33% shooting. Bulls won.
  December 6th. Thunder. Rose had 11 on 23% shooting. Bulls won.
  December 15th. Raptors. Rose had 6 points on 33% shooting. Bulls won.
  December 28th. Bucks. Rose had 18 on 41% shooting. Bulls won.
  February 15th. Bobcats. Rose had 18 points on 35% shooting. Bulls won.
  April 8th. Cavs. Rose had 11 points on 40% shooting. Bulls won.
  The only game Rose missed last year, the Bulls played at Denver and lost by one (Carmelo shot at the buzzer).
  Rose is obviously THE most important piece of the Bulls, and they wouldn’t have won 62 games without him, but he’s not the only piece.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:55 pm
  @Nicholas Fleming – Oh then thanks. Yeah Simmons can be a wack job at times, but I respect him. I also hate stats when they’re not used in proper context.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 4:56 pm
  Wow. Enigmatic shut it down with that list.
  I believe I will be stealing that

• brad Posted: Oct.24 at 4:56 pm
  @nbk I was actually praising a guy like Rose for locking himself in a gym and working on his game. The the things he said he wanted to improve in his game are his basketball iq, becoming more efficient at everything, posting up and better isolation play against bigger defenders. He also focused on getting stronger and lifting weights, which will help with his endurance towards the end of a long postseason. I commend Rose for asking coach Thibs what he needed to improve for this season and beyond….

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 4:57 pm
  Maniac, Wilt was clearly the better player, Russell the better winner (and teammates), so don’t go there. Didn’t you read my entire post or just scanned thru and picked out the ones you felt arguing about? I said stats don’t tell the whole story but when they shouldn’t be dismissed. If stats didn’t matter why the hell do we keep score during a game then?

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 4:57 pm
  Here’s what we’re gonna do, I’ma create an online assosci…associ…er, um, online league tonight. Private.
  Hit me up here or on twitter for the codes.
  What do y’all think?
  10 minute quarters, 82 game season, Pro difficulty?
  I ain’t doing hall-of-fame, sorry but I’d be 0-82!!

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 4:57 pm
  Gotta go. I’m out. Peace

• Truth Posted: Oct.24 at 4:59 pm
  Rose is the Bulls offense. Luol Deng is assisted on 70% of his shots, Boozer 55%, I didn’t look into the numbers of the others. Egnimatic it seems while your intentions are good you lack a fundamental understanding of the game of basketball. The Chicago Bulls as structured have one player who can create offense for the team. As far as ball handlers I would venture to say the Bulls have the worst combination of ball handling 2′s and 3′s in the entire league between, Bogans, Brewer, Korver and Deng. None of those guys can create off the dribble. I don’t think any other team lacks ball handling to the degree of the Bulls. What they make up for in it though is defense and heart. Then you get to the bigs, Noah missed 35 games, Boozer missed 20 games. Boozer was on a tear until he injured himself in that fall against the Bobcats where Kwame pushed him out of the air. What Rose did was remarkable as the only guy on the team that can handle, and I see him getting even better this year. He should see a small uptick in numbers to about 26-27 & 9 assist. I think that is good for a top 4 spot in the league.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 4:59 pm
  When i say overmarketing, I mean they broke rules for Bird and Magic. Like the Lakers and Celtics playing each other 4 times each regular season. Or how every sunday it would be the Celtics at 4, and the Lakers at 7 (depending on where you live) on CBS.(it was CBS then right?) They don’t do that for LeBron and Kobe, well LeBron does it for himself (the fiasco) but the league doesn’t do it anymore then they would any other best player in the league. Back then, the NBA didn’t market Julius Erving, or Moses Malone, they markets Bird & Magic. Bird & Magic. Bird & Magic.

• wishuwould247 Posted: Oct.24 at 5:01 pm
  NO WAY DWADE IS #5 OVERALL. For one, Kobe is on his downside. He dragged that hurt leg all year and got sweep in the playoff. D-Rose, while a beast is still not on Dwade level. KD is a baller but his leadership is lacking. Dwade would have torn in Westbrook for the ball hogging in the playoff ( see Dwade and Gary Payton in the 2006 playoff [Dwade got in GP jock on court]). And the finals should have showed anyone that has eyes and a rational mind that LeBron is not in his class. Dwade has that heart and will like Jordan, he not better than Mike but he the closest. Ask Mike (only player to endorse Air Jordan, not the brand but the actually shoe)

• airs Posted: Oct.24 at 5:01 pm
  i hope this is for ps3,
  and i dont got a twitter! please post the code or whatever stuff on here yeah?

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 5:02 pm
  Also, what the hell does “love” have to do with it? I’m talking about how Bird and Magic’s all-around stats during the 80s played a “role” in their rank as the best players. You can’t sit there and tell me that if Bird was putting up 22/8/5 along with winning chips, people would have still considered him a top-2 player or MJ putting up 25/5/5, people would have considered him the greatest player during the 90s. They are not the deciding factor when it comes to ranking players but stats play a part whether you agree or not.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 5:03 pm
  All I want to know is this: Why the f*ck is Gilbert Arenas ahead of Allen Iverson?????

• Slick Ric Posted: Oct.24 at 5:04 pm
  Those are only eight games though, lol. he had double digit assist in about half of those games as well ,so he still was doing most of the creating, just not the scoring.

• For Real Posted: Oct.24 at 5:04 pm
  Remember SLAM when they were shocking? It’s been a while…….
  My top 5 Lebron
  Dwight
  Durant
  Wade
  Rose
  Kobe

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 5:04 pm
  Enigmatic, I’m all for it. It doesn’t matter to me; HOF, Pro or Rookie, you would still get beat like you stole something.

• For Real Posted: Oct.24 at 5:05 pm
  Rose & Kobe tied ,
  can’t decide….

• For Real Posted: Oct.24 at 5:06 pm
  ehhhem..top 6

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 5:07 pm
  I wish y’all had a 360. I haven’t lost in 2k12 yet.

• Showtime Posted: Oct.24 at 5:09 pm
  This getting redundant, Kobe fans, will be Kobe fans, no matter how many whole you put in their argument or what stats that proves other wise. Wade is always criminal slept on. Now i see the arguement if it was still 08. but Come on , one guy team got swept and the other made to the finals. lifetime achievement award Kobe> Wade. Now that different story..

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 5:09 pm
  Sigh.
  Perhaps you lack a fundamental understanding of reading, Truth.
  Pardon my bluntness, but I clearly stated that I understand the offense runs through Rose, Rose runs the offense, Rose is the focal point of the offense, Rose creates most of the offense, etc., etc., etc.
  ONCE AGAIN, my beef is with those that say Rose, and ONLY Rose, is responsible for the team winning 62 games last year.
  Rose isn’t the reason the Bulls were top 2 or 3 in rebounds, blocks, opponents points per, opponents field goals per, etc., etc., etc.
  And I don’t mean to insult you, call it calling it even for you insulting me with the whole “lacking fundamental knowledge of basketball” thing.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 5:13 pm
  Y’all know I live in Alaska and don’t get home until about 10 PM Eastern time, right?
  Also, do we want the pace of the season to be slow so everyone can still do their thing and not have to worry about playing a game on there every other day?
  And is an 82 game season cool?
  And, SERIOUSLY, why the F*CK is Gilbert Arenas ranked above Allen Iverson?!?!??!

• Truth Posted: Oct.24 at 5:13 pm
  On November 1st against the Blazers Rose had 16 points on 54% shooting along with 13 assist. Luol had a monster night where Rose force fed him all night. Against Denver that was a two point game Rose shot poorly from the field but made the plays down the stretch to win that game. Against OKC held Westbrook to 15 and 35% shooting and 6 TO’s Against Toronto took 9 shots in a blowout with 11 assist. I could go on but in all those games Rose played a key role in what the Bulls did. The Bulls are a solid team I don’t feel why you think you need to discredit Rose to prop up the rest of the squad with your flawed arguments.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 5:15 pm
  I can’t play Pro. That’s ridiculous. We should compromise on Superstar. I play on Hall of Fame, and watching the defenders just stand there and watch on Pro is maddening.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 5:17 pm
  He’s saying Rose isn’t the only thing that makes the Bulls successful. Not even offensively (where they really weren’t very successful in the first place).

• Showtime Posted: Oct.24 at 5:18 pm
  I never thought i see the day matic, having argument against rose..wow

• aotearaw Posted: Oct.24 at 5:18 pm
  Ridiculously low.

• Showtime Posted: Oct.24 at 5:19 pm
  @ nbk gamertag Jayr0say, i have both

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 5:25 pm
  word, Sooper Fadeaway – When I’m on it’s in the evenings-nights

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 5:26 pm
  “The Bulls are a solid team I don’t feel why you think you need to discredit Rose to prop up the rest of the squad with your flawed arguments.”
  Cause of sh*t like this, homie –
  “No other pg in the league could have carried the bulls the way he did last year, period”
  “enig stop the nonsense. i watched nealy every bulls game last year. it was d.rose and MORE d.rose. deng had a good year. no other player on that team can say they had a good year”
  And me saying Rose wasn’t a major factor in their defense, which was a MAJOR factor in their overall success, is a flawed argument?
  Wow, pot, meet kettle…

• Nick Tha Quick Posted: Oct.24 at 5:26 pm
  For argument’s sake, when will JTaylor ever openly admit that Kobe is halfway decent at something, when will Lakeshow concede that Kobe may not be the best the something, when will AllBall admit that Dwill could be better that CP3, or when will Bull22…never mind. There has never been a SINGLE time on Slam when one of the regular commenters has ever conceded defeat in an argument and accepted someone else’s opinion. Why would this change today?

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 5:27 pm
  82gm is fine and I’m also leaning towards playing on superstar. Also, everyone has to play like they do in a real NBA game, none that living on the perimeter and launching 3 after 3, sh*t is corny.

• Truth Posted: Oct.24 at 5:28 pm
  The Bulls offense was to #11 I wouldn’t call that unsuccessful but hey that’s just me. And offensively he is the only one that makes things go. It’s a fact no player accounted for more of there teams offense than Rose. On 42.2% of Chicago’s scoring plays Derrick Rose either does the scoring himself or gets the assist. That’s an absurd number.

• unf*ckwitable Posted: Oct.24 at 5:30 pm
  Whaaaat the f*ck is this.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 5:30 pm
  I’ve actually seen JT concede on a few arguments. And Lakeshow isn’t that bad about Kobe once he separates his emotions from the conversation. Like his all-time rank of Kobe during our last conversation was perfectly reasonable.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 5:30 pm
  Like I’ve said before, I’m a Bulls fan first and foremost.
  Yeah, I’m a big Rose fan but I take offense when people say he’s the only reason they got to 62 W’s.
  Anyways, ok 82 games, superstar.
  What I really wanna know though is how are JTaylor and AllenP gonna fight it out to see who gets the Heat.

• reeld Posted: Oct.24 at 5:31 pm
  THIS LIST JUST LOST ALL CREDIBILIY.
  THIS LIST JUST LOST ALL ITS SENSE.
  IT WAS ALL GOOD UNTIL NOW.
  N I THOUGHT ESPNs LIST WAS CRAZY.
  DWADE IS ARGUABLE THE BEST PLAYER.

• Truth Posted: Oct.24 at 5:31 pm
  “No other pg in the league could have carried the bulls the way he did last year, period”
  “enig stop the nonsense. i watched nealy every bulls game last year. it was d.rose and MORE d.rose. deng had a good year. no other player on that team can say they had a good year”
  And me saying Rose wasn’t a major factor in their defense, which was a MAJOR factor in their overall success, is a flawed argument?
  Wow, pot, meet kettle… Those are pretty close to true statements. Noah was playing at a high level pre injury, Boozer played at a high level for a month. Deng was great this year. He put together a solid season and played all 82 games. And in terms of synergy stats D.Rose was the #1 PG defender in the league. I could post those if you’d like. D.Rose was a big part of the Bulls defense as well.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 5:32 pm
  Truth, you’re arguing for the sake of arguing.
  I agree with pretty much everything you say.
  I’ve explained why I feel the way I do, but you just keep going back to how important Rose is to the Bulls’ offense.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 5:32 pm
  Bub75 is the gamer tag on PS3 for me.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 5:35 pm
  I’m sorry Truth, please forgive my ignorance, but…what the f*ck is a synergy stat?
  Also, the Bulls were able to get by without Boozer and Noah because of the excellent play of Rose…AND????
  Their depth!
  And their defense!
  And their coaching!
  Rose is a BEAST, but it’s ok to give his teammates some props as well, it doesn’t make him any less of a beast of any less important to the Bulls.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 5:36 pm
  *or any less important

• Sws Posted: Oct.24 at 5:36 pm
  I’m sorry but dwight is not a top 5 player. He is the best center in a league where soft brook lopez is the his closest comp. Athleticaly howard is a freak of nature. And his shot blocking and rebounding is incredible but in aleague where scoring is the key to winning, he doesn’t have it. I see him improving his post game but until he can get a consistant 12 footer I don’t think he can be top 5 (feel the same about blake)

• Slick Ric Posted: Oct.24 at 5:38 pm
  @NBK, shut up punk, you talk too much non-sense. Anyway @enigmatic, As truth stated, Rose did account for more of his teams points than any other player whether scoring or assisting. you say rose wasnt that big of a deal on the defense but to me, no Bulls player was, it was a collective effort and thibs system, thats why the bulls were able to maintain good defense depsite the shuffling of the the line-ups due to injuries.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 5:40 pm
  Fair enough, Slick Ric.
  So regarding your point about the defense, wouldn’t that mean that Rose is not the only important member of the Bulls and that he didn’t “carry” the Bulls last year? (besides offensively much of the time).

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 5:41 pm
  “Synergy Stat” would just be a statistic you get off of synergy sports (that site tracks every single little thing that happens on a basketball court, to the point where stats like, how many times you deflect a pass in the first quarter is just part of the show). Which is dope and I wish I had an account for. My head would explode with that access. (the head on my shoulders)

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 5:43 pm
  I see your ego has healed up nicely Ric…

• Truth Posted: Oct.24 at 5:48 pm
  Synergy is an advanced statistical scouting tool. It gives thorough break downs of all players in almost any situation you could imagine. For example it gives a pps (points per shot) breakdown of every scenario from Isolations, pick and roll on the ball handler, pick and roll guarding the roll man, guarding the spot up. And pretty much the same thing on offense it’s pretty neat, and Rose ranks way up there in those defensive metrics.
  And sorry enigmatic, I get tired of seeing people say Rose didn’t deserve MVP because of how great the Bulls defense or rebounding was. The guy made the big play more times than not when the Bulls needed it and led them to 62 regular season wins. They went 6-1 against the Heat, Lakers and Mavs I just don’t understand why people were so opposed to his MVP. I see a boost coming in his stats as he was able to up his FTA’s in the middle of the season and with a modest upgrade at the two I can see D.Rose at 26 and 9 on 47% from the field.

• Slick Ric Posted: Oct.24 at 5:49 pm
  I suppose, but most times when a person says a player carried a team, they mean offensively more so than defensively.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 5:50 pm
  Who said Rose didn’t deserve the MVP?

• Sean B Posted: Oct.24 at 5:50 pm
  Only one guy should have been ahead of D-wade… his teammate LeBron James. And even that’s debatable. Did you see this guy in the Finals last year?

• Truth Posted: Oct.24 at 5:53 pm
  Did you see Wade in the ECF last year?

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 5:54 pm
  Don’t trip. Somebody else can have the Heat, I got a trump card in my back pocket. JTaylor2123 is my PSN tag.

• AllBall Posted: Oct.24 at 5:54 pm
  nbk, I’ll play you on 360. Probably blow you out too.

• Ben Osborne Posted: Oct.24 at 5:56 pm
  Tomorrow’s gonna be fun, too.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 5:56 pm
  send me an invite. It’s nice that you have confidence. I am not putting probably’s on anything, just my undefeated-ness

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 5:57 pm
  Truth – Oh, I’d never say Rose didn’t deserve MVP.
  I’m a defender of Rose deserving it, just ask the likes of MUBWAR (not calling you out, MUBWAR, just you’re the cat I usually argue that with).
  You can ask people like nbk or Allen, I’m always defending Rose for MVP and actually believe he deserved Most Improved as well.
  I just think too many people go overboard in saying he did EVERYTHING for the Bulls.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 5:59 pm
  I’m not even gonna sh*t talk regarding 2k12 cause I know I’ma get stomped, but I’m just tired of either playing the CPU or my 6 year old daughter all the time. lol

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 6:00 pm
  I didn’t have Rose as my MVP, but I don’t disagree with people who put him there last season. But i wholeheartedly felt Rose should have got MIP, cosign Matic

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 6:02 pm
  I like that people say things like “Probably Blow You Out Too” – you don’t know what your getting yourself into, just like I don’t. If history is any indication you’ll probably run with the Lakers, Bulls, Thunder, or Heat. You will try and get in the paint the whole game like its 2k12 and end up very very frustrated. But I hope not, I hope your actually really good AllBall, instead of just blowing smoke out your ass

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 6:03 pm
  2k11*

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 6:06 pm
  BTW, hope y’all know I don’t even play online but I’ma do this just for y’all.
  I saw they had the online league and thought this would be perfect for the SLAM heads.

• Travis Posted: Oct.24 at 6:07 pm
  Hell naw wade should be top 3!

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 6:07 pm
  Damn. I won’t talk trash because I’ve almost never played against a real person in either game. Just the CPU most of the time. I’m still getting used to the controls and stuff. I finally opened the game up this weekend and started playing.
  I’m really enjoying the greatest teams joint though, particularly the ones involving Magic. Gave it to the Celtics last night on Hall of Fame to unlike in both the Magic and Kareem Challenge. I almost don’t want to play with the regular squads.

• Allenp Posted: Oct.24 at 6:09 pm
  unlock.

• Truth Posted: Oct.24 at 6:11 pm
  @Enigmatic I mean I won’t go as far as to say he did have to either score or assist almost every bucket the Bulls got last year. He carried a ridiculous load offensively which mostly stemmed from the lack of handlers on the wings. If you look across the league I don’t think that any other team has such inept ball handlers playing the two or the three. And when Bogans is out there he just flat out gets ignored it’s kind of sad that he only shot 38% a guy like Morrow getting the looks Bogans got might have shot 55%.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 6:15 pm
  ^ That is probably true about Morrow. But Bogans wasn’t left alone like he was a pariah or Shawn Marion. Teams waited for the action and trapped. Typically leaving Bogans last on the priority list. It’s not like when Eric Snow was playing next to Iverson or anything like that.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 6:16 pm
  Yeah, that was one of the bigger mysteries of last summer to me was why the Bulls were throwing money at Bogans and Redick (before the Magic matched) and didn’t even try to get Morrow.
  And Watson is a good backup in terms of scoring but he’s never been a playmaker.
  I think the Bulls should look to get more of a playmaking PG to back up Rose.
  Though I do like Watson.

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 6:20 pm
  i turned off my computer when i read that kobe is the anchor nonsense from maniac… remind me why we pay attention to him again?

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 6:22 pm
  because he knows the game outside of his quest for Kobe Bryant to not be “overlooked” or whatever he wanted to call it. It’s clear he will come around if he really tries, that’s at least why i have been entertaining him.

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 6:24 pm
  whatever… I’m glad you guys explained to the writers why this ranking is idiotic.. also ebony’s back.. weird. anyway i thought rose should’ve gotten the mvp too… but i would’ve understood if people felt dwight howard should’ve been mvp

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 6:25 pm
  nbk sees nbk circa 2008 in Maniac.
  LOL “follow me, young Padawan”…

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 6:26 pm
  datkid, did you mean to type “ebony” or was that a typo?
  Either way, made me laught.
  Not sure why, though.

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 6:27 pm
  @nbk I see … I actually agreed with a lot of his points about dirk being overrated after the finals and SOME of his points about the all time list but homie was trippin hard for a while.

• Tae Posted: Oct.24 at 6:27 pm
  Thats how u get better Enig. I dont play online either. I play tha computer and practice running tha triangle and that other stuff Mike Brown brought to LA

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 6:28 pm
  F*ck you Datkid, I just spit soda on my keyboard from that Ebony typo

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 6:31 pm
  and Tracy McFady? lol that’s kind of dope

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 6:33 pm
  Woulda been ever better if it was a double typo and he typed “and ebony’s black…weird.
  LOL
  @Tae – I suppose you’re right. I just remember trying a COD game online and getting destroyed by like, 11 year old asian kids. LOL, and me being a military vet I probably felt the same way basketball players feel when they get worked on these NBA games, lol
  I was like “Never playing online again!!”

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 6:39 pm
  lmao enig that was a typo… glad i could make you laugh tho

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 6:39 pm
  “other stuff” Mike Brown brought to LA? Mr. Potato Head box set, a gallon of rogaine and lip gloss (lots of kobe a** kissing to be done this season).

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 6:40 pm
  yoooo nbk! you found my twitter?

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 6:41 pm
  Ive been following you for a couple weeks cuz

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 6:45 pm
  Ah, sh*t!
  Ladies man!
  Er, umm… ladies kid?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 6:48 pm
  @datkid – Yo man do me a favor and stop playing hopcrotch on my sack. EVERY TIME I see your name, I see mine. Drop it. It’s over

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 6:49 pm
  Yo Enig. Yall ballin’ on 2K11 or 2K12?

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 6:49 pm
  Yeah, soop is that white dude flipping the camera off…oh wait that’s like 25% of all twitter users. lol

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 6:50 pm
  2k12, Maniac.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 6:50 pm
  @JTaylor – Imma get at you with that Wilt vs. Russell thing, but we’ll get to it another day. I’m tired of arguing.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 6:53 pm
  Haha, I haven’t seen a similar picture but I’m gonna have to change it now

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 6:54 pm
  F*** with me on that 2K12 league… It’s on

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 6:55 pm
  Yeah, it don’t get no more original than MINES!!
  MJ 2k12 avi, baby!
  Yeah…I need to change mine too.
  not my background though, it’s probably the only reason SLAM Online followed me, lol

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 6:58 pm
  My background was paired by my moms. Sh*ts dope

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 6:58 pm
  My background was painted by my moms. Sh*ts dope

• Jason Rowley Posted: Oct.24 at 7:00 pm
  having wade ranked five is just wrong. sure, he is an elite scorer, and an elite defender..when he’s locked in and not taking plays off, which is why he has only one or two all defensive team awards. but, where and who you play with matter a lot in basketball. only the game-changers, the best of the best, lead teams to championships – dudes like russell, wilt, kareem, magic, jordan, bird, hakeem, shaq, duncan, kobe, and dirk. not the second tier coattail superstars..guys like pippen, worthy, mchale, malone, barkley, ewing, king, etc. – oh, and wade. put wade next to another one of those game-changers, give him a ton of questionable calls and an asterisked ring, and next thing you know he’s better than dirk. how do you think how dirk would do with shaq? or lebron? better to rank him in the second five, somewhere behind howard, dirk and maybe melo.. the first five should be for perennial first team all nba guys, mvp candidates, not cause he plays so hard – wins when next to superstars – and gets up after all his losses.. and this doesn’t even contemplate his weak left hand or inconsistent outside shot, which will both get exposed as his athleticism wanes..

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 7:10 pm
  Yeah, I know. I seen you trying to get @KingJames to notice.
  “Hey LeBron! My mom painted this!! Yeah!!! Can I get an RT? A follow? I loved you on ‘The Decision’, by the way! You rocked!”
  LMAO I’m just clowning.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 7:12 pm
  So you decided to go with the “white boy making a silly face at the camera” pic huh?
  Nice, that’s only like 13% of Twitter uses, lol

• brad Posted: Oct.24 at 7:12 pm
  Wade should be lower, its easy to make arguments for everyone left. It seems to me that Dwayne Wade looked like the better player with Miami in the playoffs. A lot of people say that Wade> Rose, but if you put Wade on Chicago would they be just as good? Would the lakers be better with Wade instead of Kobe? Either way Wade should be lower if not for the one man show he displayed in the playoffs. Wade and Kobe are the only two in the top 6 with rings, rings matter

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 7:15 pm
  Yeah, I think Wade on Chicago would be just as good.
  But Wade’s 30 and Rose’s 23 so I’d take Rose for the long haul.

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 7:18 pm
  I sent it too him when I uploaded it, might as well lol – mom did that for no reason and put Hella work in. Gotta try and give her as much cred as I can. And yeah that was the pic choice, not may options while operating a vehicle lol

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 7:21 pm
  Damn soop, you need to chill on that driving and texting, b.
  Gonna end up killing someone. SMH.

• brad Posted: Oct.24 at 7:22 pm
  exactly and wades d is better, if wade was on the lakers instead of kobe they would be better. Slam will go 4 Kobe, 3 Durant, 2 Rose, 1 Lebron, Slam is slippin

• Truth Posted: Oct.24 at 7:24 pm
  Bogans was left alone lots last year. Kobe didn’t bother to guard him nor did Wade they were almost playing free safety.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 7:24 pm
  Rose will be #4 … One step at a time

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 7:26 pm
  It’s phoenix at 4:00 on a Monday. I wasn’t even moving.

• M Cho Posted: Oct.24 at 7:27 pm
  Over 400 responses already…looks like a lot of people are thinking what I’m thinking: this ranking is too low. No way Rose beats Wade.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 7:28 pm
  Oh my bad.
  I forgot what traffic is like in a real city and not…you know…here.

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 7:33 pm
  word you are nbk? am I following you back? what’s your twitter name, i’ll get back at you with the swiftness. maniac… i will gladly drop it. as soon as you stop being stupid. the only reason i mentioned it was bc you were still whining about defensive anchors. try not to get your panties in a bunch. also i’d just like to say that yes eventually rose will be better than wade… but it won’t be next year.

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 7:34 pm
  but yeah it’s over… i don’t have a problem with you. also I’m glad a writer agrees with the rest of us…. finally. how did this even happen M.cho ?

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 7:35 pm
  Sooper Fadeaway

• Orange Posted: Oct.24 at 7:35 pm
  How many 6-4 guards you know that could do that? nate robinson blocks yao
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt5pOPn_0Ik nate robinson blocks shaq
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7BfIIwcfXQ&feature=related

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 7:36 pm
  it’s over… i don’t have a problem with you tho. M.cho… how’d this happen? these whole rankings… who’s the giant homer who’s pushing rose’s rating so high?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 7:37 pm
  @datkid – I’m gonna ignore the fact you just called me stupid and called me whiner, etc…

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 7:37 pm
  sorry for the double post… my comments weren’t showing up. and got it nbk

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 7:44 pm
  yeah my bad.. maniac.. that sub was @ you… it’s over tho. let’s dead this.

• brad Posted: Oct.24 at 7:44 pm
  I dont get how Kobe is better HOWARD, JAMES, ROSE, DURANT, WADE. his reign at the top is over (unless they get howard) Kobe is aging hes not getting better hes getting worse. And now they deal with Mike Brown who let Lebron be the player coach in clevland. Theres just no way Kobe is better than Rose or Wade. I dont get why all the hate on Rose he took his team the furthest at the youngest age and won mvp. Put his Chicago team in a series they really had no business in and single handedly gave lebron and wade a couple of playoff losses.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 7:48 pm
  @brad- love the D Rose love, but you know Miami won that series 4-1, right?

• brad Posted: Oct.24 at 7:48 pm
  no im a clown i thought it was 4-2

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 7:51 pm
  LOL it’s all good.
  I still have that game 1 win DVR’d tho, lol

• airs Posted: Oct.24 at 7:52 pm
  ps3 gamer tag easy_ec, if anyone wanna mess

• datkid Posted: Oct.24 at 7:53 pm
  also I followed enigmatic and eboy,nicolas fleming,Anton, Brian Crawford, and Ryan Jones… anyone else on here that wants a follow from me on twitter hit me with your @ name. @allenp not to come off as stanish… but do you have a twitter? lmao

• QGallday Posted: Oct.24 at 8:06 pm
  im not hating on the concensus view of D WADE AS NO.5 BUT NO.5 THO…HEAT AINT EASTRN CONFERENCE CHAMPS WITHOUT THAT MAN WHO PLAYED WITH MIGRAINES BAD BACK AND CUSTODY BATTLE….WATTUP MR.WADE..IM GHOST..QGallday

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 8:09 pm
  Trust, there’s no consensus view that Wade is number 5, least among commenters, but ok.

• g Posted: Oct.24 at 8:45 pm
  wade 5…and kobe and is higher? hmm that’s funny

• omphalos Posted: Oct.24 at 8:50 pm
  Honestly, watching that post-season run of the Heat, Wade looked like the best 2-way player in the NBA. He scores better than Rose, defends MUCH better and creates just as well, whilst being a better shooter. I don’t see Rose catching Wade defensively this season, and that’s the key difference to me. Kobe being above Wade is a joke, he looked VERY old in the Mavs series, couldn’t even get free from J-Kidd to receive an inbounds pass. Durant is the only player I really see above Wade in the NBA, he has the clutch gene, is an improving defender, great rebounder and scores more than Wade while being the 1st option on his team. I think Durant’s scoring prowess overcomes Wade’s defensive advantages. But Rose above Wade? My god.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 9:02 pm
  In FAIRNESS to SLAM (never thought I’d say this)…
  It’s all about PRODUCTION first, HOW THE TEAM DOES second.
  Wade has to work with Lebron, has to split stats with Lebron.
  Kobe now has a coach who runs his offense by seeing how many flies he can catch with his mouth while the star player does f*cking everything.
  Kobe may say “SUCK MAH D***” to the whole “pass to the post” idea and handle the hell out of the rock. He may drop 30-6-6. Good for a sixth or seventh seed. How about that, huh?
  You’re welcome, SLAM.
  You’re welcome.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 9:05 pm
  Also, I think Wade is the second best player in the L, but there seems to be some misconceptions about his D. Wade coasts a LOT, and I think his blocks actually hurt the team because he always strays way too far off from his man.
  But wutevs. Odd ranking.

• omphalos Posted: Oct.24 at 9:08 pm
  When he locks in defensively on a great player he’s amazing. He does tend to coast against lesser challenges, but he can lock-down almost anybody in the NBA, which is a capacity few people have, and definitely not Rose.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.24 at 9:17 pm
  I have yet to figure out what a “clutch gene” is. Oh, wait…..never-mind. It’s a word made up by Skip Bayless, which is all I need to know.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 9:26 pm
  @omphalos – what playoffs were you watching? Wade looked the like the best 2-way player in the NBA??? Wade wasn’t even the best 2-way player on his team. He played like s*** in the playoffs until the finals. Even the Wade homers on here would admit that… And that clutch gene is a myth. No such thing. Idk whoever came up with that crap. Durant is not a great rebounder. You take Durant over Wade, but not Rose (who is the first option on his team)? Both Wade and Durant have top 15 players on their teams, Rose doesn’t. There is reasonable arguments for Wade>Durant>Rose & Wade>Rose>Durant & Rose>Wade>Durant & Rose>Durant>Wade & Durant>Wade>Rose & Durant>Rose>Wade. The logic you are using isn’t consistent though.

• MUBWAR Posted: Oct.24 at 10:00 pm
  the only logic slam is missing is
  top players lebron wade howard
  2nd tier players Kobe(this stage of his career) Durant Melo Paul Rose
  And so on …but slam is slipping this year for sure

• blinda Posted: Oct.24 at 10:34 pm
  D Rose torched Wade all year round. This is not a lifetime achievement award. Rose and Durant are the future of the league and deserve to be where their at. Based on potential this one’s a toss up. Rose has improved his game every year in the league more then any other player. If he keeps improving which he will, were talking about a once in a lifetime point guard. Lebron is a quitter, Kobe deserves to be number 1, followed by Lebaby, Rose, Durant, and Wade.

• omphalos Posted: Oct.24 at 10:37 pm
  @Maniac; I was watching the playoffs where he killed my Celtics. Lebron was forced to shoot from the outside, and yet Wade literally could not be stopped. Whenever we were about to go on a run Wade seemingly made a stop or scored a bucket. He essentially nullified Ray Allen to boot. As far as my logic ala Rose/Durant/Wade, allow me to explain more clearly. 1) Wade is superior to Rose given that they share the same strengths (scoring, athleticism, clutch play), but Rose’s weakness (D) is one of Wade’s strength. 2) KD and Wade are both great scorers, but KD is better and the difference between their abilities in scoring is enough to bridge the gap between their defensive deficincies when you factor in rebounding also. Therefore, Rose<Wade<Durant. Bearing in mind this is all MY OPINION, the logic is consistent, it's just a matter of whether you agree with me assessment/valuation of the attributes of the players concerned. But if you buy my premise, the conclusion is logically sound.

• omphalos Posted: Oct.24 at 10:38 pm
  Also, I should add that he was having health concerns AFAIK against the Bulls, and still guarded Rose for much of the series until Lebron took over with fresh legs in the 4th quarters.

• JEr dawg Posted: Oct.24 at 10:41 pm
  The top 5 players from now on is all about splitting hairs. ANY of these guys people want on their team.
  Wade at #5 is a surprise. I really thought Kobe would be right here. But he isn’t and once slam reveals his name there could be a system crash and unbelievable feedback comments. Maybe a new record will be set just because Kobe’s so polarizing. Of remaining guys one 1 doesn’t appear to have a killer instinct. And all remaining guys have signature shoes, how awesome is that? I’m in suspense SLAM. If Rose is #4 then all is right. But if he isn’t and some forward is left sitting at #4 then all hell breaks loose. Crash SLAMOnline website!

• Teddy-the-Bear Posted: Oct.24 at 10:44 pm
  On the subject of Bird’s teammates, Kevin McHale is the man. Obviously top 10 power forwards ever… Top 5, perhaps?

• blinda Posted: Oct.24 at 10:52 pm
  This is a good debate. But if you don’t remember, Rose was playing with a grade 2 ankle sprain since the beginning of the series with Indiana which meant he could have been out for a month. Reguardless of the Bulls record, the rest of the Bull’s team was not consistent. Offensively every teams goal was to stop 1 player and only Miami was able to do it after 6 months of the season. Don’t forget Rose had 44 points with 6 minutes remaining against the hawks with a bad ankle sprain which meant he could have gone for 60. And Rose is not a bad defender, he got much better as the season went on. Think about it, he’s the most athletic point in NBA History. Maybe Durnant is better but I would take Rose who is 7 years younger then Wade.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 10:57 pm
  @omphalos – OK now I see what you’re saying, but Bron was the better player in the playoffs. Now that you explained it more, I agree with your claims somewhat. I probably wouldn’t put Durant over Wade either yet personally, but I can see why you and others do. At this moment I’m thinking Wade>Durant>Rose, but I oscillate and can tolerate Rose at the top or Durant at the top of the 3. Those 3 are really close at this point. I give Wade the slight edge because of experience, but yeah. SLAM did no wrong by putting Wade last. It’s near preference at this point.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 11:01 pm
  @Teddy-the-Bear – Yeah McHale was the man. Easily top 10. Top 7 actually. Top 5 is debatable. Top 7 is Duncan at #1 and Dirk, Malone, Pettit, Barkley, Garnett, & McHale follow in some kind of order that is highly debatable.

• omphalos Posted: Oct.24 at 11:05 pm
  @Maniac; I really think Lebron was only the better player in the Chicago series, he certainly wasn’t in the Finals, those 4th quarter collapses put him well and truly below Wade in my opinion. Not on talent, but on performance, he just doesn’t deliver when it counts.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 11:06 pm
  @JEr – Yeah I called Wade at #5 yesterday and I’m calling Rose at #4 today. I was going to say exactly what you said about Kobe earlier, but I’ve done enough of defending him. SLAM will explode when they reveal him at #2… breaking comment records and everything lol.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 11:08 pm
  @omphalos – I agree on the finals that Wade was better, definitely. LeBron was better in every other series though (neither was super outstanding in the Philly series).

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.24 at 11:10 pm
  FOR THOSE OF YOU INTERESTED IN THAT NBA 2K12 ONLINE LEAGUE FOR PS3 – I just created a private league.
  Name is SLAM Commenters
  password is slamily.

• Teddy-the-Bear Posted: Oct.24 at 11:13 pm
  1. Duncan
  2. Malone
  3. Barkley
  4. McHale
  5. Garnett
  ?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 11:20 pm
  Good looking Matic

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 11:21 pm
  @Teddy-the-Bear – That’s reasonable, but don’t sleep on Pettit. Dirk is still active, but he’s in that top 7 somewhere. I’m not sure where to rank him yet.

• slamfan4life Posted: Oct.24 at 11:28 pm
  ROSEEEEE hell yuahhhh real talk, Rose+Bron+Bosh=Title Wade dw youre still dope Bron-Rose-Durant-Kobe thats what I see slam dishin out

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 11:48 pm
  Kobe will be #3 of this I am 100% certain. And we are not going to approach a comment record, maybe we’ll get halfway there, maybe.

• Dacre Posted: Oct.24 at 11:48 pm
  ^ McHale top 5? No sir he would be in that 7th-9th position…

• nbk Posted: Oct.24 at 11:49 pm
  99% my bad.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 11:58 pm
  @Dacre – 9th??????? How?

• Jukai Posted: Oct.24 at 11:58 pm
  Obligatory list: Duncan, Malone, Garnett, Barkley, McHale, Nowitzki, Hayes, Pettit, McAdoo, Debusschere, Rodman, Webber, Lucas, Buck Williams, Schayes, Chambers, Kemp, Gasol, Nance, and… Connie Hawkins, I guess (given that Amare and Bosh probably haven’t done enough to crack the list yet).
  Obviously, the farther down you go, the more interchangeable they get because the less thought I put into them.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.24 at 11:59 pm
  @nbk – we’ll see…

• Maniac Posted: Oct.25 at 12:02 am
  Enigmatc the ID should be numbers instead of letters right?

• Jukai Posted: Oct.25 at 12:03 am
  McHale’s ranking really depends on how you look at him. Whether he was a true second banana who was carried by Bird to three championships, or was a true superstar who choose to take the role of whatever the coach put him in for the good of the team. I’m of the thought process of the former.
  After all, a person who put up 26/10/2.6 with over two blocks a game on 60% shooting with pretty damn good post defense… will most likely be turning a few heads if he’s not in your top-10.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.25 at 12:12 am
  I actually think McHale had all the skills needed to be a go-to guy on a championship squad (stellar post-game that commands double-teams, good mid-range shooter, uber-efficient, decent passer from the post, great FT shooter, and elite defender) The only problems was a lack of drive and durability issues.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.25 at 12:14 am
  @Enigmatic – Yo man they’re asking for the league’s ID instead of the password. What is it?

• TMay Posted: Oct.25 at 12:24 am
  I can not believe D-Wade is number 5. Wade is a better on the ball defender than anybody who will be in the top 5. He is a better playmaker than most of the people that will be in this top 5. He can score from anywhere on the floor and he is the only elite scorer who could make sure bosh and James still get theres. Do you think LeBron would have played this good with kobe? NO WAY!!! SLAM this ranking is for D-Wade can not be justified by any means. You guys should be ashamed of yourself.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.25 at 12:37 am
  Hypothetical debate. Who would win this pick-up 5 on 5? Team A: CP3, Wade, Bron, Bosh, Dwight vs. Team B: Rose, Kobe, Durant, Melo, Stat …. Team A is miles ahead on defense, but would they be able to stop Team B from scoring? That’s tough.

• datkid Posted: Oct.25 at 12:37 am
  I personally wouldn’t take durant over wade… not yet at least. but that’s me. durant’s scoring is nice, but wade is too good a playmaker and defender too pass up… but that’s me.

• flash Posted: Oct.25 at 12:41 am
  dwyane wade’s belief is stronger than all of your doubts! he’s got LBJ on his team. what makes you think he just gonna let up and be less productive the next few years? he won’t because he cant let people see that he’s being overshadowed by the other guy, he must be on par not below. why’d u think he put on a show in the finals? he wanted the world to see, when all the world is watching coz it’s the only NBA games left to watch. he made people remember who the F*** is Dwyane wade again when everybody’s talking about james, rose, griffin…etc. dwade is prideful SOB and is also insecure, but that is what makes him better!
  and for the injuries, oh he knows that better than u do so don’t think he aint doin sh** about it.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.25 at 12:48 am
  Maniac- um, they never asked me to put in an id. just a password. unless they’re the same thing.
  Try the password for the id.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.25 at 12:57 am
  Enigmatic – They only allow numbers to be inputed for the ID. Idk maybe they have some random ID laying around somewhere

• Conor O. Posted: Oct.25 at 1:01 am
  Bryant and Wade measured nearly exact averages last year, only the former played six less minutes per game and was a cripple. You guys are honestly imbeciles if you think that the order between of the two guards is not justified.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.25 at 1:01 am
  Matic – I’m looking at the public leagues and they have like 8#### type of numbers with five digits. That may be it.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.25 at 1:03 am
  airs was able to get in with no problem.
  hmmm…send me a friend request or whatever.
  PSN is enigmatic4_17
  Like I said before, I usually dont do online gaming so maybe it’s me doing something stupid.

• Maniac Posted: Oct.25 at 1:05 am
  Just did

• nbk Posted: Oct.25 at 1:18 am
  Didnt you say the ID was SLAM Commenters?

• Maniac Posted: Oct.25 at 1:19 am
  @nbk – Nah the name is SLAM Commenters. Ignore the ID and just go in. Had to figure that out

• nbk Posted: Oct.25 at 1:24 am
  Oh word – just makin sure

• Maniac Posted: Oct.25 at 1:26 am
  password is slamily

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.25 at 1:27 am
  Apparently I’m the commissioner of the league.
  Hmmm… My Bulls on a 10 game losing streak?
  Lockout, fools!!
  Lol nah I jizokes

• Maniac Posted: Oct.25 at 1:33 am
  Lmao Matic. Speaking of the lockout, this two more weeks gone was expected. We can forget Christmas too.

• Caboose Posted: Oct.25 at 1:54 am
  As usual, I’d like to submit my wrap up points for the day:
  -Still can’t decide which is worse, this ranking or Dwight’s.
  -Rose was the Bulls’ offense but he did not carry the team the way LBJ did from 2007-2010.
  -Great write-up.
  -Though it is debatable as to who is the better player between Kobe and Wade (I’ll take Bean), Wade will have a more “productive” next season.
  -Kobe’s defense is overrated. Granted, he’s not Hedo status, but he’s not better than Tony Allen. Still a solid defender, even if he doesn’t always check the best player.
  -That 2k league will be dope. Have fun y’all.
  -There are a select few who will concede points. Nbk does about non-star players, LakeShow does about anything non Kobe/Bron/Wade, Enig about intricate player details, JT about anything non Bron/Heat/Kobe/Lakers and EBoy about star players not on the Heat.
  -Though I dreaded it from the start, I now hope Rose is ranked #2.

• Enigmatic Posted: Oct.25 at 1:57 am
  Caboose, you’re not joining the league?

• Jukai Posted: Oct.25 at 2:00 am
  JTaylor: LOL… McHale had Kobe syndrome… he was a decent passer from the post… but he never passed. His teammates would mock him, they’d call him the black hole.

• Caboose Posted: Oct.25 at 2:00 am
  I was a PS3 guy before I left for college, but my little bro got to keep the gaming system haha. My roomie let’s me play his 360. Would have loved to join though.

• clayton Posted: Oct.25 at 2:01 am
  wowwwww haters. you guys have officially lost all credibility. no way in hell d rose kobe or durant is better than d wade.

• Jukai Posted: Oct.25 at 2:02 am
  Youtube don’t got the video, but from basketbawful:
  “Black Hole”
  Word History: Kevin McHale was a low post genius, not to mention one of the best percentage shooters in NBA history. His career field goal percentage of 55.4 ranks as the 9th best of all time, and during the 1986-87 season he became the only player to ever shoot better than 60 percent from the field and 80 percent from the line (60.4 FGPct and 83.6 FTPct, respectively). What makes these accomplishments even more amazing is the fact that McHale often encountered aggressive, trapping defenses specifically designed to limit his touches. However, McHale only averaged 1.7 assists per game over his 13-year career, and his Celtics teammates sometimes wondered why McHale rarely passed out of the double and triple-teams he regularly faced. Danny Ainge finally began calling him “The Black Hole,” referring to those regions of space that have a gravitational field so intense even light cannot escape. As Ainge once said, “When the ball goes in [to McHale], it doesn’t come back out.”

• Jukai Posted: Oct.25 at 2:03 am
  Quote from Kevin McHale:
  “If there are three guys on me, shoot. If there are four guys on me, pass.”

• Dacre Posted: Oct.25 at 2:03 am
  I have no problem believing that 4 other players could have effectively better seasons than Wade: After all, Rose taking it to the next level, Kobe showing he is still the alpha mamba in the West, Durant or LeBron adding that postup prowess to their games… Dwight averaging 20ppg…. there are a lot of things you could expect from guys this coming season that makes it REALISTIC that Wade is ‘only’ the 5th best player in the L next season…when ever thats going to be.

• JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.25 at 2:10 am
  Jukai, HA! maybe “good” passer was a mile-long stretch but what do you think about the rest of my statement? Do you think McHale had the skills to be a go-to guy on a championship squad?
  Enigmatic, I would love to check in but I’m working the graveyard shift. Might hop on tomorrow after I’m done playing a fake solider on battlefield 3.

• Dacre Posted: Oct.25 at 2:20 am
  I’d be using Phoenix Suns on 2k12 for Xbox…

• Darksaber Posted: Oct.25 at 2:20 am
  Damnit, i stopped playing PS3 a while back (more into PC flight simulators myself, FreeFalcon whattt!) but this 2K12 league RigoMatic has set up seems intriguing.
  Might have to get the game and join, never tried the 2K series as a longtime ‘Live’ fan though.

• jdn41 Posted: Oct.25 at 2:20 am
  by the looks of things i honestly think itll be kobe then rose then lebron then durant. Slam will rank durant number and have some stupid write up bout him working hard in the summer leagues

• Jukai Posted: Oct.25 at 2:30 am
  JTaylor: Oh yeah, McHale definitely had the skills to be the “man” on a contender. I mean, he finished fourth in MVP voting one year… next to Jordan, Magic, and Bird… that has to say something.
  Durability was the major issue with Kevin McHale. Generally, the Celtics lost to the Lakers when McHale was hurt and won when McHale was at 100%.

• Galagu Posted: Oct.25 at 2:31 am
  there’s no way there are four players better than dwade. weak stuff slam.

• Max Posted: Oct.25 at 3:05 am
  PSN is max12-gizze
  Ill get my ps3 back on thursday, played the game a total of like 4 hours at a friends house.

• ben sin Posted: Oct.25 at 3:44 am
  Dirk at 7 is too low. And Zach Randolph below Bosh? Whether he was in Toronto or Miami, Bosh was inferior to Randolph, in LA, Portland, or Memphis. But the rest of the list looks good.

• Jack Posted: Oct.25 at 3:50 am
  SLAM, you’ve officially cooked it. This might seem like an overreaction, but I’m cancelling my subscription to you guys after these absolutely ludicrous rankings. You must not watch basketball, is all I can say. There is no justifiable way, that Derrick Rose and Kevin Durant are better basketball players than Dwyane Wade. You have lost all credibility.

• SlamDweller Posted: Oct.25 at 4:28 am
  talking about lifetime achievement award on Wade? says the guy who ranks Kobe as #1. typical. And when did Durant and Rose improved sooooo much on offense that made their defense ignorable comparable to Wade’s overall game? (which is only comparable to LeBron’s overall game) and since when did 33%+ playoff-shooting Rose began torching Wade all season? wow. Slam. wow.

• #6marjons Posted: Oct.25 at 4:51 am
  i didn’t think i’d say it but i think its gonna be kobe, he might very well not be in the top 3 players this year. 4 kobe
  3 rose
  2 durant
  1 lebron

• Ben Osborne Posted: Oct.25 at 5:00 am
  What’s hysterical to me is when I read the comments about how Wade is TOO HIGH after all the screaming that we are idiots for ranking him too low. It’s a compilation of votes; impossible to make everyone happy. Love all the discussion though. Today should be fun, too.

• Max Posted: Oct.25 at 5:46 am
  Are you guys playing create a legend?
  I’m gon start one with the goat, the white mamba.

• Elliot Posted: Oct.25 at 6:40 am
  why you all tryna predict kobe as #1?! Wade > Kobe. You all saying Kobe can carry a team well what was that in the playoffs huh? I saw the hunger, but that was all talk, when it came down to it the whole lakers team choked…its a fact. We all know Kobe is still good but stop judging his position on his legacy and his rings.
  As for Wade how can you put Durant with mediocre defense above a 6’4 shooting guard with elite D especially for his position. I get it Durant is an excellent scorer and I think he is the best in that field, but he isnt yet (notice I said yet) an all round player. He’s still young and I’m sure give it 2 years max and he will have it on lockdown.
  My top 6 would have gone as so: #6- Kobe (is he really better than those below TODAY) #5- Durant (be a better team player rather than a black hole with the ball, the best players get team mates involved, otherwise the best on offense)
  #4- Wade #3- Howard (people dont even talk him about not having an offensive game, you sound stupid with him putting up 20-30 point games) #2- Rose (MVP this year kinda puts him up a couple of spots, u gotta give it to the kid he was a complete beast this year, amazing in the clutch) #1- Lebron (try and find someone statistically across the field better than him… he is the best all rounded player in the game TODAY)

• Mubashir Posted: Oct.25 at 7:28 am
  This is completely rong and innacurate, dwade is among the top 3 in the league right now, he is alot better than drose or kobe. PERIOD.

• Nguni P. Posted: Oct.25 at 7:48 am
  other than the comments section, where can I raise my outrage on leaving out Brandon Roy out of the top 50. I mean, really now SLAM. really??

• Jono Posted: Oct.25 at 9:39 am
  SLAM has a serious love affair with DRose and Love. Maybe it’s because they agreed to do all the photo shoots but this whole top 50 thing is defintely edging me to not renewing my subscription, especially since it’s never delivered on time anyway. Why would Love be ranked to highly baffles me. That being said, the top 10 is a whole new ball game and to put Rose in the top4 is a disgrace. He only won the MVP cuz of last-seasons LeBron hate fest. KD will rise, Melo-Mare will fuse and the Heat hatred will die down. All this is gonna leave SLAM looking like idiots.

• UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER Posted: Oct.25 at 9:40 am
  WHERE IS DERRICK ROSE?!?!?!?!

• Max Posted: Oct.25 at 10:27 am
  Nguni P. Are you really surprised by that?

• BigA Posted: Oct.25 at 10:51 am
  Most dominant players in NBA 1. Lebron 2. Dwight 3. Wade 4. Dirk 5. Kobe 6. Durant 7. Rose 8. Paul 9. Williams 10. Anthony

• Elliot Posted: Oct.25 at 11:46 am
  @Nguni P
  are you serious the man was injured like the whole season! why should he be here

• project_X Posted: Oct.25 at 5:50 pm
  Here is one projection for this list:
  THERE IS NO SEASON TO BE PLAYED 2011/2012 SO WHO CARES!! Lets focus on 2012/2013, start a new list now!
  And Dirk will rule that list, dude will get better each year from now to 50.. just like a football (soccer for u yankee doodles) goalie.. Oh and stop calling NBA champs, world champs.. THE WORLD IS NOT PARTICIPATING IN AN NORTH AMERICAN COMPETITION.. GOd daMn

• John Posted: Oct.25 at 8:01 pm
  If Wade is still both an elite scorer and defender, then how is Durant ranked higher than him? Durant’s a one way phenom. Just because he has long arms doesn’t make him a great or even good defender.

• Dan Posted: Oct.25 at 8:16 pm
  This is terrible. I thought people who write these articles are meant to know stuff about the NBA? How in the world can Rose be better than D-Wade, i mean are you kidding me!! Just coz the heat share the workload over 3 great players doesnt make rose better than him. Terrible article, dont agree at all! Dwade should be number 2 and kobe 3. Man this guy does not rate Dwade at all!

• Snufff Posted: Oct.27 at 6:16 pm
  @yada the whole comment on dwade being 30 and injury prone.. And drose not having injury? How about him rolling his ankle just walking up to that defender? Smdh kudos to what eboy said I honestly think that dwade is not lower than drose I honestly don’t think drose will be any better than his previous season due to the fact the bulls need to utilize other factors on the bulls like boozer and loul deng would have to put up better numbers to get that ring.. Note the fact I love what the write wrote about how dwade is unstoppable when HEALTHY this is a fact to but you can’t determine drose potential can be better than dwade playing UNHEALTHY that’s like predicting something that isn’t even factual yet.. We don’t know if drose will plummet down or not but I think credit should be given when it’s due.. I honestly had wade at no.2 or 3. As a laker fan what people are saying about love is true.. Due to his long history of achievements and long standing greatness.. He ain’t playing like he use to and I totally agree about tiny Allen being in all defensive first team over Kobe and I think dwade deserved that spot too.. Drose is a phenomenal player and all but my boy dwade is a phenomenal player on both ends of the court

• 3kings Posted: Oct.30 at 12:10 am
  way better defender than kobe hands down. Shoul have been number 3 if u ask me. Dwade dont talk sh*t, or get in anyones face, or yell at his teamates, and let his game do the talking. like the true greats

• wadecounty Posted: Nov.2 at 2:07 am
  puttin durant, kobe, or especially ROSE (U GOTTA BE KIDDING) ahead of Dwade is a f***in JOKE. maybe Wade banged ur sister or something, but this is ridiculous. SLAM loses all credibility in my book. shameful.