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Tuesday, October 22nd, 2013 at 12:00 pm  |  206 responses

Top 50: Carmelo Anthony, no. 4

Fresh off his first scoring title, Melo has the Knicks’ hopes high for ’13-14.

by Sam Rubenstein / @samrubenstein

Carmelo Anthony, top 4! If Kobe’s magic blood renewal is a scam, Durant needed Westbrook more than we thought, and the playoff minutes finally chip away at LeBron, then that would mean… no let’s not go there… yet.

This is a big turn around for someone who was beginning to turn a vast segment of the basketball public off. A little over a year ago there was a belief that the Knicks were a better team with Melo away from the team, injured. He was supposed to give up his kingdom to Linsanity, which now feels like some weird fantasy that couldn’t have happened. Instead he took control of the Knicks organization and raised the stakes.

Last season Melo took his game to a new level, leading the League in scoring, carrying the Knicks to the forgotten land for them—the second round of the Playoffs. He was unstoppable for weeks at a time, throwing up 40-point games in his sleep. Melo was the heart of a 13-game winning streak and even had some Knicks fans believing their team could be a threat to Miami. He was getting heavy MVP buzz early in the year as he led a Knicks team that jacked threes at a record clip, took care of the ball, and played solid defense.

He also missed time with all kinds of mysterious injury treatments and got caught up in some silly controversies, whether it was the Honey Nut Cheerios thing or the usual accusations of ball hogging. The most amazing thing about Carmelo is that the smile is still there. Through all of the business and the controversies, the hand-wringing and the judgment, he still goes through life with a smile on his face. That probably annoys some people who want to use that as evidence he doesn’t care. Not true.

Melo’s latest foray into the news is that he is going to do the financially savvy thing and opt out of his contract to test the market. Will we look at him differently when he’s the highest paid player in the League? Probably. People will use his cap-killing salary to bring him down, but let’s enjoy what Melo is at the moment—an electric performer (most nights) who can carry a team singlehandedly and injured on a playoff run.

By the time the Playoffs rolled around last year, Melo was the one-man Broadway show he’s always wanted to be. The bad JR Smith made an appearance, his Hall of Fame PG went 10 playoff games without scoring a single point to close out his career (!!!), Tyson Chandler and Amar’e were “ineffective,” Felton and Shump had some moments, but Melo was carrying a decaying squad on his back. If he could have finished that dunk over Roy Hibbert, it might have carried the Knicks to the conference finals (leap of faith, but I’m building a case here). There really aren’t that many guys you can stick on a team and feel like their presence puts you in the second round. Melo wasn’t always that guy, but he may be now. Playing for that free-agent contract this year, you’d think he’ll be insanely motivated. Next year all bets are off. And such is the up-and-down nature of Carmelo.

He’d dropped all the way down to No. 10 last year. I’ve been writing the Melo Top 50 piece for three years now, because I teach at a NYC high school and my students LOVE the man. Once again, I defer to one of my students for the final words on the write-up.

Chris Prudhomme for Mr. Rubenstein:

Carmelo Kiyan Anthony, The Knight in shining armor to Knick Fans Worldwide. Last year he arguably had his best season. He led the NBA in points and led his team to the number 2 seed in the East. Not to mention, he actually played some DEFENSE.

I’ve heard it all as a Melo supporter, from “He just watches his assignments score” to “He can’t guard a soda machine.” But this past season he actually played some D. Yeah you can say he mainly guarded power forwards last year, but the man played D. And on the other end of the court Melo performed on a level beyond comprehension. He may have shot the ball a little too much last season, but that extra shooting crowned him as the scoring champion of the 2012-13 NBA season. He can beat the defender in EVERY way. He is just a Swiss Army Knife filled with offensive weapons.

A prime example of The Offensive Craftsmanship of Carmelo Anthony is when he tied his career high against a star-less Miami Heat. Yeah you can say, “LeBron wasn’t there,” but when the Heat play the Knicks Shane Battier has to guard Melo, which he did. And he got completely decimated. Michael Jordan once said, “I’ve always believed that if you put in the work, the results will come.” And Melo is working to a Championship, and he’s getting closer and closer and when he works a little harder he can be an NBA Champion and Number #1 on the SLAM Magazine Top 50 Countdown.

Where should Carmelo Anthony rank in the SLAM Top 50?

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SLAMonline Top 50 Players 2013
Rank Player Team Position Pos. Rank
50 Monta Ellis Mavs SG 5
49 Luol Deng Bulls SF 10
48 Ricky Rubio TWolves PG 14
47 Greg Monroe Pistons PF 12
46 Kawhi Leonard Spurs SF 9
45 Mike Conley Grizzlies PG 13
44 Al Jefferson Bobcats C 9
43 David Lee Warriors PF 11
42 Jrue Holiday Pelicans PG 12
41 Anthony Davis Pelicans PF 10
40 Joe Johnson Nets SG 4
39 Serge Ibaka Thunder PF 9
38 Kevin Garnett Nets PF 8
37 Rudy Gay Raptors SF 8
36 Paul Pierce Nets SF 7
35 Ty Lawson Nuggets PG 11
34 Pau Gasol Lakers PF 7
33 Al Horford Hawks C 8
32 Andre Iguodala Warriors SF 6
31 Brook Lopez Nets C 7
30 Zach Randolph Grizzlies PF 6
29 DeMarcus Cousins Kings C 6
28 Damian Lillard Blazers PG 10
27 Josh Smith Hawks SF 5
26 Joakim Noah Bulls C 5
25 Roy Hibbert Pacers C 4
24 John Wall Wizards PG 9
23 Chris Bosh Heat C 3
22 Tim Duncan Spurs PF 5
21 Dirk Nowitzki Mavs PF 4
20 LaMarcus Aldridge Blazers PF 3
19 Rajon Rondo Celtics PG 8
18 Marc Gasol Grizzlies C 2
17 Blake Griffin Clippers PF 2
16 Deron Williams Nets PG 7
15 Kevin Love TWolves PF 1
14 Dwyane Wade Heat SG 3
13 Paul George Pacers SF 4
12 Russell Westbrook Thunder PG 6
11 Tony Parker Spurs PG 5
10 Stephen Curry Warriors PG 4
9 Kyrie Irving Cavs PG 3
8 Dwight Howard Rockets C 1
7 Derrick Rose Bulls PG 2
6 Kobe Bryant Lakers SG 2
5 James Harden Rockets SG 1
4 Carmelo Anthony Knicks SF 3

Rankings are based on expected contribution in ’13-14—to players’ team, the League and the game.

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  • AndyK415

    Weak write up.

  • Caboose

    I guess the only suspense left is if Durant is somehow ranked ahead of LeBron. If that happens, I want the BEST write up. Ever.

    And shut up LakeShow :)

  • i_ball

    “Melo is working to a Championship, and he’s getting closer and closer and when he works a little harder he can be an NBA Champion and Number #1 on the SLAM Magazine Top 50 Countdown.”

    Well that ain’t happening unless the space jam aliens come around for LeBron, KD, CP3 and DRose and several other players!

    I just don’t see the NY having a good season – they are the 5th in the East at best and will probably a 1st round exit.

  • RedDragon10

    Too 1-dimensional for me.

  • AndyK415

    Absolutely nothing about Carmelo’s presence gives me the feeling of going to the second round…

  • LakeShow

    I accept this, but I fully expect 3 or 4 players to have better seasons next year.

    I am impressed with Melo’s resurgence though. He just needs to maintain. It’s mental for him.

  • hubertdavisfor3

    Bring it on, haters. Not saying he’s the 4th best player in the league, but it was flat out laughable seeing him ranked in the mid to late teens 2 seasons ago by some people. He was always a top 10 player.

  • danpowers

    let the hate begin lol

  • hubertdavisfor3

    More like 5th at worst. Only 2 proven teams in the east are MIA and IND. Rose looks great, and I hope he stays healthy, but nothing is certain with CHI or BKN. Knicks are arguably better than they were last year with additions of udrih and artest (we’ll see on bargnani).

  • http://soundcloud.com/tray-8 T-Ray

    Well considering SLAM has had him in the top 10 the last 4 years I’d say SLAM definitely isn’t one of the haters you speak of.

  • shockexchange

    Shock Exchange Interpretation: “Melo is merely a ‘placeholder’ here because so many other guys – Black Rick Flair, Rondo, D. Rose, Russy, et. al. – are coming off of injuries.”

  • Omar

    Love you Melo, please stop doing the ridiculous celebration where you shoot yourself in the head after a 3. Thanks.

  • tape15

    haters will hate but nice to see melo getting some love from slam!

  • danpowers

    i doubt that bargnani is going to have a real good season, but at least he is an upgrade over novak and camby.

  • hubertdavisfor3

    Nope, I love slam. They’ve always given him the respect he deserves.

  • http://soundcloud.com/tray-8 T-Ray

    Pretty shocked that ESPN had Blake Griffin ahead of him. Then again no I’m not.

  • hubertdavisfor3

    All we really need from him is to stay on the floor and be reasonably efficient (say 45/37/80). That shouldn’t be asking too much, but it remains to be seen.

  • danpowers

    theyre underestimating melo’ shoulder tho. i’ve read several times that this shoulder is unlikely to last the whole season.

  • danpowers

    i’d love to see a rebound or a blocked shot every once in a while, hope that wont be asked too much of bargs

  • Church of the Mambites

    Even the writer has Kobe in his top 3. #1225

  • danpowers

    lol espn, i didnt even bother to have a look at their list (or anything they publish) in the first place

  • ballislife

    I think this ranking makes sense. I always thought if Melo had top shelf talent on his squad then his teams could compete. The Knicks are just not that talented and Melo will suffer again.

  • http://soundcloud.com/tray-8 T-Ray

    I just looked for laughs and needless to say they did not disappoint ll

  • danpowers

    as always lol

  • shockexchange

    Did he decide to risk it instead of having surgery? If possible, avoiding surgery is best.

  • danpowers

    as far as i understood, he risks re-injuring it by not having had surgery

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ben Osborne

    The Watcher! Thank you Sam!

  • shockexchange

    Well, there goes the season. *Womp*

  • Slick Ric

    Definitely not top 5.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    that will not happen. that’s like putting Clyde Drexler over Michael Jordan in 1993…..
    .
    if that does happen, that will literally be my last day here.

  • LakeShow

    Jordan was scoring 13 more ppg than Drexler you dork.

    Don’t be hyperbolic.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    oh…..PPG….that changes everything.
    .
    and no, going into that season Drexler averaged 25-6.6-6.7, and before the finals, had people calling him better than Jordan.
    .
    Just like you with Durant.

  • danpowers

    thats what i thought when i read it lol. but he is looking sharp so far, i’ll just hope for the best.

  • Clos1881

    Chris Paul is not a better player than carmelo.

  • shockexchange

    Well, SE thought it was very odd when Melo stated that “I took a big risk with my shoulder.” He wants to ensure that fans don’t hurl vitriol at him in case he can’t finish the season.

    It’s like a man telling a woman “I’m a dog” up front, as a disclaimer. Then when he screws up, she can’t complain.

  • Clos1881

    That must have been based on analytics lol

  • http://soundcloud.com/tray-8 T-Ray

    I’m not even sure. I don’t have ESPN Insider so I think I’m limited to a brief explanation as to why the player is ranked where they are.

  • http://soundcloud.com/tray-8 T-Ray

    I have to disagree. I was talking to nbk yesterday on the Harden thread and I too thought Paul at 3 was too high. I thought D12 at 3 and CP3 at 4 was the better ranking. However, I feel CP3 is better than Melo simply due to his effort on defense and his ability to manage a game. He’s a player who knows that he can take over a game as a scorer but reserves it and focuses on running a team as the floor general. Plus we must keep in mind these are projected for next season and with Doc being his best coach to date as well as better outside shooters I think CP3 will have the better season.

  • JoeMaMa

    Arguably the best point getter in the league.
    But only arguably.

  • http://soundcloud.com/tray-8 T-Ray

    Lol dork

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    2 seasons ago he was ranked 10th…..

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    because Griffin is a better defender really. even though he’s bad, statistically speaking, he hurts the Clippers less overall than Melo hurts the Knicks.
    .
    now why guys don’t look at how much each guy helps the team? idk.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    Where was the evidence to support the 4

  • http://soundcloud.com/tray-8 T-Ray

    Yea I see your point there. Besides he was only one spot ahead of Melo so it’s not like it was a huge gap.

  • LakeShow

    Your retarded if you don’t think 13ppg is a huge difference.

    Drexler averaged 19 or 20ppg in 93 and was over 30 years old. Jordan was under 30 years of age and over 30ppg.

    It’s not even a similar or comparable idea.

    Durant is already a much better player than Drexler ever was, and LeBron isn’t close to Jordan.

    Absolutely absurd.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Going into 93, not after 93. You really need to relax, stop jumping the gun and read better.

  • Clos1881

    I love doc as a coach but im not even sold that cp3 is the best point in the league. Melo gets underrated in my opinion the Knicks are not loaded with talent the best team Melo has been on he took them to the conference finals he’s a good rebounder good passer and at times solid defender it’s nobody in the league that lebron or anyone else for that matter has a tougher time guarding.

  • LakeShow

    You need to put in 1992 if you mean 1992.

    Then I won’t need to wad my panties.

  • http://soundcloud.com/tray-8 T-Ray

    No debating those points about Melo. In fact I’m very high on Melo but I feel CP3 is a better passer and defender thus being the reason why I have no problem of having him a 3 and Melo #4.

  • Sean B

    This ranking is laughable.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    i see why that’s confusing…but you are a smart enough person to know i wasn’t talking about after the 93 season……i mean, Barkley won MVP that year, the Suns were in the finals……Drexler was effectively eliminated from the conversation at that point. I know you know that.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    i was waiting for someone to write a big complaint about this so i can put Melo’s true value in perspective. but that’s not going to happen, just a bunch of people complaining without substance because they don’t like Melo,

  • bklynknicks3

    Thank u slam for putting up legit rankings you made a real fool of espn. They are a total joke

  • hubertdavisfor3

    …Read it again. Nothing suggests I was referring to SLAM. “some people” as in ESPN, yahoo, etc.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    ahhhh, my bad man.

  • http://www.tasteofthetowntodd.com/ Todd Blackledge

    In one article I see Steph Curry in the top 5 and here he barely breaks the top 10? Who’s rating who here?

  • http://www.rich-imaging.com/ Dutch Rich

    I got my popcorn and everything!! lol

  • LakeShow

    Chris Paul is more clutch. (Saying something, since Melo is top 5 if not 3)
    He gives you around 18 ppg and 10 assists. That equates to over 40ppg he is accountable for first hand.

    Then take into account he is a top 15 defender in all the NBA.

    Chris Paul is quite simply, obviously better than Carmelo.

  • Junior Taylor

    It isn’t asking too much from Melo to lead the Knicks to at least the ECF now that Slam considers him to be the 4th best player in the L. The remaining 3 players ahead of him (CP, KD, LB) are expected to do the same for their respective teams.

  • Caboose

    I want to salute SLAM for not putting Jennings in the Top 50. Thank you.

  • MUBWAR

    looooool have you ever watch bargnani play? he can manage A block & A rebound, but not rebounds and blocks

  • http://signup.divinerenergy.com/ Anthony Dixon

    I will always respect Melo. I knew he was great ever since that 30 point quarter.

  • hubertdavisfor3

    Closer to 4th than 15th (ESPN).

  • Caboose

    Didn’t even have to bring up eFG/TS%, where it’s not close. Or efficiency overall where it’s not that close. Or the RIDICULOUS gap in Offensive Rating. Yeah, to me, there’s a nice solid gap between 3 and 4. Arguably larger than the one between 2 and 3.

  • jazz

    This guy is consistently underrated by the media.
    Glad to see one of the most dominant forces in the game today is getting his due recognition

  • meloMan456

    The other three have a far superior supporting cast

  • danpowers

    lol good one

  • danpowers

    you wont read that complaint from me, even though i know he is not no.4, not at all. but this here feels just too nice for a knicks fan lol

  • danpowers

    there is none lol

  • danpowers

    so…?

  • you are false

    OKC? k lol.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    well i don’t think he’s 4th either, but he’s definitely top 10. and with how much he has to do within that team, he shouldn’t even be considered any lower than that.

  • shockexchange

    Melo wants his cake and eat it too. It wants to avoid surgery and he also wants Knicks fans not to go in on him if he re-injures it. He doesn’t want to be held accountable – sorta like his attitude in Denver.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    hoooooold on, it took you to Carmelo at #4 to say this? you just now felt safe? lmao

  • KBM

    I don’t agree that Bargnani is an upgrade over Novak. Im not questioning your knowledge danpowers, as your posts show, but seriously wait until you watch dude play for your team, or the going gets tough. AB has a piss poor attitude and after 6 years of grace time anyone who’s watched him year in and out has rightfully written him off as an asset as long as he’s on his current deal. He sucks man, for real

  • Caboose

    I was gonna save it for LeBron, but I feel safe now

  • King David

    he should be #2 because we all saw how “GREAT” Durant was last year, but im not mad at #4 due to the fact that CP3 single handedly made the Clippers contenders…

  • MackAtttack

    Top 10 but not top 5 imo

  • Dingo

    Here is a little hate, Carmelo as good as he is reminds me of guys like Barkley and Malone. They’re great players but some thing is missing to will their teams to a championship. Here is the kicker, no one will mind over the long term if he never does, he will still go down as a great and I think that is what matter most to him.

  • Najee Fareed

    so proud of my boy melo…he has grown up

  • Najee Fareed

    can chris paul even get his team to the conference finals? i mean everybody gets on melo about noot winning but when does chris paul get it? melo has been to conference finals. but is chris paul really the third best player in this league? what has he proven?

  • ScrewT

    Call me crazy, but I can think of several players I’d take over Melo. CP3, Harden, Tony Parker, Rose, Westbrook, D12, Curry.. even Paul George.

  • Evan Boland

    CP3 is a reg season player thus far. He has yet to prove otherwise.

  • Evan Boland

    Westbrook alone > The rest of the Knicks

  • Evan Boland

    But CP will fail to do so, like he always does.

  • Evan Boland

    How could he be more clutch he’s never made it out of the second round.. He’s not MORE clutch than Melo.

  • Evan Boland

    D12 at 3 is laughable.

  • LakeShow

    Why would you improve in the playoffs if you’re a “regular season player”?

  • Evan Boland

    It was by far the most awful list I’ve ever seen. Steph Curry 6th, ‘Melo 14th. Kobe 25th, lol.

  • LakeShow

    Uhh, pretty sure I have watched him take over more games than anyone in 4th quarters over the last few years.

    How is it “clutch” to make it out of the 2nd round?

    His teams have never been better than 3rd in the Western Conference…

  • LakeShow

    Way to be a unapologetic hater. Good job.

    Let’s definitely not think about the fact that he has had worse teams than others in his conference.

  • the man

    Lol is this list serious melo over rose and kobe yeah man slam must of got spammed

  • Clos1881

    Chris Paul more clutch than melo? People say melo doesn’t win what has Chris Paul won? On the clutch meter it’s Kobe and melo

  • Clos1881

    Laughable how name me the guy other than lebron that could have taken that magic team to the finals.

  • Clos1881

    And Melos a better scorer and rebounder

  • Clos1881

    Who are you referring to carmelo or cp3

  • nonoynet

    Dont think so. Last year, Knicks have the pieces.

  • Clos1881

    Those last 2 years the clippers have had plenty of talent

  • Clos1881

    If you feel that way about Brandon Jennings how do you feel about Rubio he him and Jeremy Lin in my opinion are both highly overrated.

  • Caboose

    Rubio is FAR and AWAY better than Jennings and Lin. Would you like to hear my case?

  • Clos1881

    Lol sure why not lol

  • Caboose

    I won’t even cover Lin, since he’s nowhere close.

    Essentially what it comes down to is defense. Rubio is arguably a top 5 defender at the PG position whereas Jennings is one of the worst starting PG defenders. Just check out the difference in defensive efficiency with and without Rubio on the floor. I don’t have those numbers in front of me, but I’m sure @disqus_rOeXXBD2qs:disqus can pull em up for me. Jennings, on the other hand, was a detriment on the defensive end to his team.

    Furthermore, Jennings’ best asset to a team is his scoring, which he really isn’t that good at. He shoots under 40% from the floor and needed 16 shots to get to 17 points. By contrast, someone like James Harden needed 17 shots to get to 26 points.

    On the other hand, Rubio’s best asset is his passing, which he truly excels at. He’s not a good scorer and he doesn’t try to be. This ties nicely into basketball IQ, which between the two is miles apart. Rubio knows how to run an offense. Jennings knows how to play on the blacktop.

  • Irfan

    A guy who doesn’t really care for defense, scores bunches of jumper and threes, thus helping his team win, even when injured… reminds me of Kobe Bryant! And even though I’m a fan of the Black Mamba, I’d rank them both lower than Tony Parker, who showcased his talent to the world in the NBA and then the Eurobasket, and is basically never hurt for long, contrary to those guys.
    I don’t understand how Parker could be ranked worse than Irving & Melo (for Bryant & Harden it’s more difficult to asses TP9 should rank better).

  • Clos1881

    I’m fine with everything you said but Rubio’s not a top 50 player either and let’s not forget his field goal percentage is like 36% I would rather have Andre miller at this advanced stage than Rubio.

  • Caboose

    No, definitely not. You’re really overlooking the impact Rubio has on the defensive end. He simply makes his team much better than the average point guard.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    lol sure they have

  • Clos1881

    I sense sarcasm

  • Clos1881

    Millers not the average point guard and I guess I am missing the impact because their not winning he’s not a game changing impact player he’s a flashier Calderon in my book that can’t shoot.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    Rubio runs a team. but you never know how jennings will play on this team. ON the bucks he had no offensive option but now does in the post atleast oops to drummond and smith and post for monroe.

  • Caboose

    Calderon couldn’t guard a 4th grader with an amputated leg. Rubio is ONE OF THE BEST PG DEFENDERS IN THE L. This is his contribution, you can’t look just to the offensive end.

  • Caboose

    He had no option? What was Monta Ellis?

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    monta ellis is a ball dominant guard who scores with the ball. How do you run a team like that as a pg. I mean now Jennings has a solid 5 that will give him a chance to penetrate set up which jennings can do better than most pgs (the penetrate with the ball not the set up that wait to be determined)

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    Rubio if the twolves stay healthy can take them far. He is a franchise pg he is a franchise pg

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    rubio is a great on ball defender but did jennings average more steals? or rubio

  • Caboose

    You know Jennings is utterly terrible when he drives into the lane right? He shoots under 30% from 3-9 feet. Even Rubio looks down at that shooting.

  • Caboose

    RUBIO IS A FRANCHISE PG AND CHRIS PAUL IS NOT?

  • Caboose

    Rubio, by like a lot.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    Man andre miller has to be top 10 pg in history of the nba (retracted after noting the obvious notice post below) even though he hasn’t accomplished much accoldaes. just his consistency and endurance and style of play.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    wait not in absolute yes and no. Rubio is more of a franchise pg than paul. paul scores better but rubio elevates his teammates better than paul

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    by 1 steal a game but jenning isn’t terrible he gets about 1.5 which is decent

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    i wasn’t saying scoring i was saying penetrating and getting into the lane. with big daddy drummond at the low block and monroe at the high and smith trolling the baseline you know he’ll have more otpions to distribute and set up players. I don’t like that jennings has to score for his team to do well. That’s not the type of player he should be.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    wasn’t saying scoring i was saying penetrating and getting into the lane. with big daddy drummond at the low block and monroe at the high and smith trolling the baseline you know he’ll have more otpions to distribute and set up players. I don’t like that idea that jennings has to score for his team to do well. That’s not the type of player he should be. id rather have jennings get 8-10 pts per game with 12 assist 1.5 -2 steals and focus on purely setting up team and hitting open jumper or layup

  • Caboose

    Top 10. Really.
    Magic
    Robertson
    Stockton
    Thomas
    Kidd
    Frazier
    Cousy
    Nash
    Payton
    Archibald

    Pick one of those to knock off. Who ANDRE MILLER is better than. Just try.

  • Caboose

    …………ok I’m done with you.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    let me adjust that statement. i should just said HOF not top 10. I mentioned elsewhere different thread the HOF statement not top 10. it was more of an expressoin than exact top 10 with evidence for his place in HOF

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    i understand the argument for why cp3 is best pg in the league i just dont think its merited considering the other competition he has.

    Would you take paul over rose, westbrook, rondo, rubio, curry

  • Caboose

    All. EASILY. Tell me why Chris Paul is not better than Rondo or Rubio.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    What’s sarcasm?

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    606036.4.478.371.8613.69.12.5.119.8

    2011–12Boston535336.9.448.238.5974.811.71.8.111.9

    look at who paul has to pass to on the clippers and why he had such high assist number on the hornets as well athletic bigs who can catch his lobs and three point shooters. the clippers had a better regular season than the celtics because better roster. Rondo has to create for slowed shooters which you can standardize with paul but where are rondos athletic bigs to catch his oops. The easiest assists are dump offs to big who dunk with ease.

    That’s a real reach in the paragraph i provided above not enough data for individual assist and type of assists. It’s the style of play that im emphasizing. Rondo makes offense for nonoffensive threats. Paul needs offensive players for him to get offensive assists. Paul is great offesnive scorer when it comes to breaking down offensive cause of that lethal midrange game but is he a better pg than rondo… no he scores better but he doesnt have vision like rondo or rubio

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    this whole statement above was nonsense

    basically rondo better pg because of vision, i don’t have and i dont think stats exist to distribution of assists and how assists are made. but lebron, rondo, rubio have that vision that isnt found

  • Caboose

    You’re gonna argue that Paul has inferior vision? Good luck with that one.

    My argument is gonna be based on stats and what he has done, supporting cast or not.

    PER of 26.4 is nuts and 7 points (that’s huge) higher than Rondo has posted at ANY point in his career.

    Paul has posted an offensive rating of above 120 for 6 straight seasons. The best Rondo has done in the past 3 years is 104.

    Paul contributed more defensive win shares last year. They typically trade off on who has the better DRTG and DWS, so their defense is a wash.

    Paul’s Win Shares are consistently more than double Rondo’s. This is where the crux of your argument is and why it is meaningless. According to you, Paul is supported by these excellent scorers and they help him win games whereas Rondo is the one carrying the team. The stats show the complete opposite. In reality, Paul contributes more to his team statistically than Rondo can even dream about.

    So no, you’re objectively wrong. That’s the beauty of stats: no bias or ignorance behind them.

  • Caboose

    Really. HOF. Dude has:

    -Never made an All-NBA Team.
    -Never made an All-Defensive Team.
    -Never made an All-Star Team
    -No significant awards besides one Assists title
    -Never been to the Finals
    -Never been the best player on his own team except for that legendarily bad Cleveland team
    -Never had a WS/48 above .150 (that’s pathetic, btw)
    -Never shot above 50% for a season
    -Never been anywhere close to an average 3pt shooter
    -The same amount of Win Shares as Jason Terry

    Yeah, go ahead, make an argument. I really wanna hear it.

  • Caboose

    You’re measuring defense by steals? Damn, Allen Iverson must be one of the greatest defenders of all time then.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    The scoring and offensive contribution i can’t deny because that stat doesn’t negate my point below. Paul is a better scorer no doubt.

    the main point is. When it comes down to elevating your team in the playoffs where point guard ability and HOW and type of assists are collected matters you go with Rondo. I mean when a team stops those lobs in the playoffs where does paul go to his shooters. Rondo makes nonoffense pieces offensive threats because he knows how to maximize he teammates. look what happened last year with the grizzlies. You put ronod on the clippers and clippers would have won easy

    NO stat exist to substantiate that claim. ANd yes even numbers are bias if you analyze factors missing for how that calculated values come about. I mean each stat has a purpose but its hard to assess a better point guard facilitator then just assist numbers because type of assists and how they are acquired has no stat because itd require a whole lot effort and $$$ but not as practical.

  • Caboose

    You have nothing to back up your claims.

    When David West left Chris Paul, his ppg dropped from 18.9 to 12.8.

    When Chris Paul came to the Clippers, their Offensive Rating went from 105.3 to 108.5. Their Defensive Rating went from 108.7 to 105.7. That’s nuts.

    When Chris Paul left the Hornets, their Offensive Rating went from 106.2 to 100.9. That is CRAZY.

    In contrast, in 2011-12, the Celtics had an Offensive Rating of 101.0. Rondo played a full season then. This past year, with Rondo out for more than half of it, the Celtics actually INCREASED to 103.1. I’m not saying Rondo made his team worse offensively, but look at the difference with Paul. It’s not even close.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    bro why would david west attempt to try when he was left on the hornets no motivation. plus he’s not average on the pacers as well so i disagree on that Causation.

    Look at who the clippers had manning the point before chris paul. I am not saying he’s bad, but he is an upgrade allstar worthy point grade who gets the ball to the bigs. that’s why i am saying that a point guard who can penetrate and faciliate like jennings is better suited to pass when he has those bigs around him instead of score. Those are the easiest assists (no stat can determine the degree of difficulty of an assist) that’s just from observing style of play.

    I am unfamiliar with the facotrs that go int othe offesnive efficiency but i knwo rondo’s fg % does hurt and if that’s a factor in lowering in may provide some explanation to the increase.

    But i’ll say it again. Rondo’s style of play is more conducive to elevating a team based on the type of assist rondo gets. Thats obversational and no calculated statistic can show it because it would be used only for such specific discussion.

    Rondo can man both the open court and half court in terms of passing, but paul does open court well but half court sets he’s better at getting his own. And this is where i say you need to surround paul with great pieces good post and outside shooters so the half court game works. Rondo on the other hand creates spacing and allows for weak offensive player to settle into comfortable roles on the court. No number just qualitative data. which is why i say Rondo is better pg overall not better scorer but better playmaker. Now you can argue definition of what type pg you want on your team but i’d go with rondo as 1st pg in the entire league. bulls without rose are good he just provides a better scoring pedigree same with westbrook.

  • Caboose

    Bandying empty words with you is a waste of time at this point. You are literally saying nothing of value; spouting off an uninformed opinion with nothing to back it up REALLY bothers me. If you really are as smart as you’re trying to portray yourself as, you can’t build an argument out of your imagination.

  • Evan Boland

    In ’12, he was way in the playoffs than regular season in every possible way. In ’13, his assists dropped off substantially and he scored more. Either way, he wasn’t playing like his “regular season” self, and he certainly wasn’t better.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    no way but most people do on steals and blocks.

    I am surprised lebron has won dpy atleast twice by now

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    dawg i never try to portray myself as intellectual because even the type of knowledge one has can be evil in the long run.

    I agree wtih you. Not my imagination rather Qualitative data. I have been trying to say there are no statistic that exist to quanity the argument i have stated.

    btw was i right you are an undergraduate

  • shaylynnvacca321

    My Uncle James just got an
    almost new black BMW X4 SUV by working parttime online… my sources
    J­a­m­2­0­.­ℂ­o­m

  • Clos1881

    You still haven’t made a top 50 case for me I don’t see him being better than Raymond Felton he’s just solid

  • Clos1881

    I’m not sold on this defensive prowess you keep championing.

  • Clos1881

    Andre miller is not better than anybody on that list but I can name some guys I feel were better than Steve Nash I actually think Steve Nash career was overrated and no way should be have 2 mvps

  • Clos1881

    You seem to have mastered the art but you’re a fool if the clippers have not had talent you can argue if the pieces fit or if they played up to potential but the talent was there

  • Caboose

    Raymond Felton arguably IS the worst defender at the PG spot. Peep his recent defensive ratings. It’s ugly.

  • shutup

    You have just solidified my opinion that no one on this site should take you serious. Go uncreate your Disqus please, it would be for the greater good.Trust me I took a youtube class on idiot spotting.

  • Clos1881

    Defensive rating? Is that like plus minus? Both of those stats are deceiving

  • Caboose

    Check out the Wolves with/without Rubio on the court on the defensive end. The difference is big. His Drtg is solid. He’ll consistently be amongst the league leaders in steals. DPOY in Spain.

  • Caboose

    No, it’s actually pretty complex. I’d really suggest looking it up.

    +/- is one of the most overrated stats ever.

  • shutup

    You do realize for Rondo’s career he was playing alongside 3 guaranteed HOF’ers, name one player CP3 has played with better then the worst of the big three?

  • Caboose

    (I agree, but Nash to Miller isn’t even close)

  • Caboose

    Stop. It’s not worth it.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    If you think flash/athleticism = potential….sure

  • shutup

    I realize that, I’m just killing time, sort of mental sparring. This dude is a weirdo, he asks some of the most random questions, and uses a ton of words but doesn’t say anything.

  • Caboose

    He’s SE without the fun.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    @disqus_oxoGJMLagc:disqus yes i know. if your implying playing with them made the game easier and that rondo only could muster up high assists due to there scoring then there some truth in that view. however, rondo’s mastery came in his ability to properly manage each one of their talents without taking from the other which is difficult to do when you have those three giants on your team and we saw what happened toward the end of the celtics run when rondo had try to will the team against the heat.

    “this dude is a weirdo” why? . why am i weird because I know killa cam was the greatest poet of the 90′s til now in American culture whether he’s knows it or not. Why am i weird because I don’t listen to any music anymore. Why i am weird because i don’t conform with the norm opinion with merit.

    if this was about mental sparring then i wouldn’t write. i just like to have conversations with purest basketball fan base out there. slam which ive been down with since 2000 is a great creative outlet. Peace Be Upon You.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    his career totals. he is a model of consistency no matter how bad the situation he kept playing to best of his abilities.you can’t fault a player for being on bad teams. I mean would you take kenny smith over andre miller because of the two titles and that one season of 20 ppg

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    that’s hard avatar.

    brolly or ssj3 goku with no outside assistance. do you think brolly could ascend to ssj4

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    not worth it. i had it for couple months and used it to past time by during lunch breaks

    i’d recommend a website called hoopshype if you need something other than slam

  • i_ball

    The Knicks are arguably better than last season – the Bulls and Nets upgraded a lot. I really don’t see the Knicks going past the first round. Maybe in the regular season they can sneak in for home court advantage but that’s it. Match up wise the only advantage NY against both teams is Melo and that won’t be enough

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    @juniortaylor:disqus

    they have talent probably as much talent as the 4th best in the east. but getting that talent go play together and amplifying from 4th to 2nd requires a new coaching philosophy and change in both off and def strategy

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    yeah i agree i mean talent wise they are the arguably 4th best in the east you could make a case for the nets. it’s really about amplifying that talent to get to a 2nd spot in the east. new coaching philosophy and strategies with off and def. they need in theory larry brown or greg pop or george karl (yes melo needs it)

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    with him playing that on the three and melo at the block. this is a perfect situration for bargnani, but i don’t like the knicks unknown identity they haven’t really establish a consistency or goal of what type team they want to be. theoretically they need larry brown or pop operating that team. maybe george karl (melo needs it)

  • Max

    No way they would’ve got past the Grizz with Rondo, CP3 HAD to score (which he’s better in than Rondo as you said) because allmost everyone else was on shutdown.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    But why was everyone on shutdown you don’t think rondo could manipulate defense through his odd ways of moving through half court to create opportunities. Plus it’s not like rondo can’t put big scoring reference heat series game but Paul is consistently better scorer

  • Dagger

    “If you really are as smart as you’re trying to portray yourself as . . . .”

    In my opinion, the more someone tries to look smart, the less intelligent they probably are.

  • RedDragon10

    SS3 goku, easily considering legendary super saiyan is just a unique stage between SS1 and SS2. Broly could’ve probably ascended, had he lived that long.

  • pposse

    agree that he’s been getting a lot of assists giving the ball to ‘gadget’ players. Guys who really specialize in one thing or the other whether its 3 pt shooting or alley oops.

  • http://soundcloud.com/tray-8 T-Ray

    Finally someone said it.

  • pposse

    with all that talent they still lose 4 games in a row last two years

  • Omar

    Rooting really hard for KD right now….but it’s not going to happen unfortunately.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    so how would you rank top 5 players of all time btw i didn’t see a reply to the previous post. i didn’t mean to offend in any way about the speculations versus opinions with evidence.

  • pposse

    MJ, Wilt, Bill Russell, KAJ, Lebron (Shaq is 5A). I wasn’t offended just didn’t know how to respond

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    did you see the new movie

  • danpowers

    larry brown? he doesnt really fit. pop is too intelligent to hire with the knicks. i dont know about karl, but i also doubt that he would be that much of an upgrade over woodson. youre right tho, this team is a big ? with much space either way. nobody can really say for sure if they are a (borderline) contender or just playoff cannon fooder this year

  • danpowers

    i had him at 8 or 9 as far as i remember. as you said, because of his role on the team. if he only commited more on defense and moved the ball a little quicker… *sigh*

  • danpowers

    mhhh im not able to judge the guy coz i have no idea what is goin on in his head

  • danpowers

    he sucks if you expect a star role from him. thats obviously not what he is, he never lived up to the expectations in toronto. we all know that he is not good on defense or at rebounding and that he cannot put a team on his back on offense. but as the second or third option he can give your team more on offense than novak who is really only a spot up shooter and nothing more. even though clank is bad on defense, he is not as bad as novak. novak is really trying tho, cant blaim him, but he is just lost on defense and due to his physique a real non factor there. and camby is just old and hurt. thats why i see clank as an update. but by far not the player i wouldve wished for

  • danpowers

    wow! thats a poor performance even for their low standards lol.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    they have the talent just need Coach Carter to come in from that movie lol.

  • LakeShow

    Every time I have seen CP in the playoffs he is one of the most tenacious players on the court, every time.

    What games particularly can you point to where he lacked aggression or heart or whatever it is you look for?

    I don’t remember those games.

  • Brendan Taylor

    Monta Ellis> Kemba Walker? Smh Slam

  • danpowers

    they may have the talent, but not the durability.

  • RedDragon10

    Not yet, my man. Please no spoilers. I’m going to watch it when I get some free time later.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    aight aight man are you in the chicago area

  • Mike From Spain

    Melo at 4? No.

  • J Du Bois

    I do believe that Paul is better than Rondo but you got to respect Rondo always … dude cant shoot and affects the game almost as much as cp3

  • J Du Bois

    He can’t

  • J Du Bois

    The east is only top 4 heavy so 2nd round always … Bulls, Heat, Pacers, Knicks … I got to see how BK jells first

  • J Du Bois

    I guess you could ask that but ….

  • J Du Bois

    Why do you think Blake Griffin is better defensively? Just curious …

  • J Du Bois

    I think its more about coaching … the talent is top 2 but I’m certain they will hoist 70,000 threes and tire out Tyson before mid season.

  • J Du Bois

    And they really have a logjam as SG and F they need a proven back up Center bad

  • J Du Bois

    lol

  • J Du Bois

    what purpose dose this serve really?

  • Evan Boland

    Does tenacity = greatness?

  • danpowers

    i love woody, even though there are many better coaches out there. if a coach was too strict on these knuckleheads then he’d lose the team pretty soon. guess it would take a phil jackson to keep the chemistry while setting the knicks up to play better.

  • hubertdavisfor3

    …Nash is still a starting PG in this league. And if you just look at defensive rating, he’s far from the worst defensive guard in the league last season. — http://bkref.com/tiny/PbVbu

  • LakeShow

    Yeah, kinda…

    If your a great player and your tenacious… Yeah, that’s going to add to your greatness.

    Gary Payton
    MJ
    Pippen
    Kobe
    Bird

    All of them were extra tenacious in the playoffs.

    It bodes well for CP is all i’m saying.

  • J Du Bois

    Either that or trade for another rebounding center

  • danpowers

    this would mean a trade including shumpert, which should cause riots by knicks fans lol

  • J Du Bois

    You think Shunpert is better than Hardaway for this team???

  • danpowers

    ask me again after we have seen hardaway play a season of nba basketball

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