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Tuesday, October 25th, 2011 at 12:20 pm  |  543 responses

Top 50: Derrick Rose, no. 4

The definitive ranking of the NBA’s best players.

by Bryan Crawford / @_BryanCrawford

The last time I saw Derrick Rose, he was fresh off addressing reporters after the Miami Heat beat the Chicago Bulls in stunning fashion in Game 5 of the Eastern Conference Finals at the United Center.

After making his post-game statements, DRose walked away from the lectern in the makeshift press room underneath the UC and a few writers, myself included, congratulated him on what really was a successful season and just showed our respect and appreciation for the amount of basketball enjoyment he provided throughout the year.

Derrick thanked us and let us know that he appreciated it, but as hard as he tried to mask it, he just couldn’t hide what was on his face. We all saw it.

After being named a starter in the ASG for the first time in his career, leading his squad to a +21 in the win column from the previous two seasons, and finishing with the best record in the NBA, taking home the MVP and leading the Bulls to the Eastern Conference Finals where they faced off against the team that everybody loves to hate, Chicago wins the first game by 21 points and after that? Curtains.

Five-game series loss. Gone fishin’…

I’ll holla!!

All things considered, I’m sure our gesture wasn’t lost on him, but in that specific moment in time. DRose wasn’t trying to hear it. His season and championship dreams just crashed and burned. Not only was he disappointed, he was PO’d, major.

But you know what? That’s exactly what you want from a guy who is the face of the franchise, the unquestioned leader of his team and the only one carrying the weight of an entire city stuck in a 13-year (and counting) Championship drought, on his back.

That last line might sound like a heavy burden to most, but DRose has already surpassed most, if not all, expectations as a player to this point, and he never shrinks in the moment nor backs down from a challenge. Like his signature drives to the rim, he attacks ferociously.

This, combined with his off-court demeanor, makes him without question one of the most unique NBA superstars any of us has ever seen. And while I’m aware those words tend to get tossed around a lot in basketball discussions these days, it really does apply here.

Derrick Rose is a hyper-competitive athlete, yet he humbly deflects any individual attention and praise that he receives and attributes his success to the contributions and help from his teammates. It’s never “I” with him, always “we.”

Strong and powerful on the court—sometimes even vociferous—once the game is over, DRose is quietly unassuming to the point you forget he’s even in the room. He never commands attention of his own volition. That’s very atypical of an NBA superstar.

And if you need any more evidence as to his uniqueness, look no further than his history on SLAMonline’s Top 50:

Going into the NBA as the No. 1 pick in the 2008 NBA Draft and coming off a sensational single season at Memphis where he was coached by John Calipari, Rose took the Tigers all the way to the National Championship game against the Kansas Jayhawks and damn near won it… allegedly. But in spite of all that, he didn’t even make the cut on the Top 50 as a rookie.

(*Side Note* When John Wall—another Coach Cal disciple and former No. 1 pick—came into the League as a rookie fresh off a freshman campaign at Kentucky where he led the Wildcats to within a game of the Final Four in 2010, he somehow managed to check in at No. 47 on the Top 50 ahead of Jesus Shuttlesworth, Gilbert “I Bring Guns To” Arenas and Lamar Kardashian. Go figure.)

In 2009, riding high off a ROY campaign and his play in that epic first-round Playoff series against the Boston Celtics, Rose went from unranked to No. 18 on the Top 50 despite many objections from SLAMonline’s passionate (and highly opinionated) readership.

A year later in 2010, Rose jumped six spots to No. 12 and now, after a year that nobody saw coming, Rose jumps eight spots and stands—in our collective opinions—as a top-five player in the League, checking in at No. 4 on SLAMonline’s Top 50, entering just his fourth season as a pro.

Look, we don’t pretend to be experts on this stuff, but to go from unranked to 18th to 12th and now fourth is pretty special. That kind of thing doesn’t happen. And it’s not like we decided to just give him the spot, he did actually earn it. He played his way in and last season was certainly no fluke.

Keep in mind what the Bulls accomplished while missing Joakim Noah and Carlos Boozer for good portions of the year. The ship could’ve easily sank, and despite basketball being a team game, DRose kept everything afloat. This is not debatable. So whenever the season does start, Chicago is going to be there (read: have a legitimate shot at a title) and Rose’s individual performance and contributions will be the primary reason why.

And if for some reason you’re still upset with the ranking, know this: Whether or not you feel a guy is deserving, an MVP winner in any professional league—from basketball to checkers—should automatically get a top-five spot in any subjective player ranking just off GP. Furthermore, said player should be given a chance to play his way out of the position because if he isn’t deserving or if his performance was an anomaly then it’ll show. Everything comes out in the wash. This is common sense.

So debate amongst yourselves and/or question the credibility of this list if you must. But know that at SLAMonline, game recognize game ’round here.

SLAMonline Top 50 Players 2011
Rank Player Team Position Pos. Rank
50 Luol Deng Bulls SF 8
49 Andrew Bogut Bucks C 7
48 Ray Allen Celtics SG 9
47 Marc Gasol Grizzlies C 6
46 David West Hornets PF 15
45 Kevin Martin Rockets SG 8
44 Andrew Bynum Lakers C 5
43 Brandon Jennings Bucks PG 11
42 Lamar Odom Lakers PF 14
41 Gerald Wallace Blazers SF 7
40 Brook Lopez Nets C 4
39 Joakim Noah Bulls C 3
38 Carlos Boozer Bulls PF 13
37 Kevin Garnett Celtics PF 12
36 Eric Gordon Clippers SG 7
35 Tony Parker Spurs PG 10
34 Andre Iguodala 76ers SG 6
33 Al Jefferson Jazz PF 11
32 Al Horford Hawks C 2
31 Stephen Curry Warriors PG 9
30 Tim Duncan Spurs PF 10
29 Josh Smith Hawks PF 9
28 Manu Ginobili Spurs SG 5
27 Tyreke Evans Kings PG 8
26 Rudy Gay Grizzlies SF 6
25 John Wall Wizards PG 7
24 Danny Granger Pacers SF 5
23 Monta Ellis Warriors SG 4
22 Joe Johnson Hawks SG 3
21 Paul Pierce Celtics SF 4
20 Steve Nash Suns PG 6
19 Zach Randolph Grizzlies PF 8
18 LaMarcus Aldridge Blazers PF 7
17 Chris Bosh Heat PF 6
16 Kevin Love TWolves PF 5
15 Rajon Rondo Celtics PG 5
14 Blake Griffin Clippers PF 4
13 Pau Gasol Lakers PF 3
12 Russell Westbrook Thunder PG 4
11 Amar’e Stoudemire Knicks PF 2
10 Deron Williams Nets PG 3
9 Carmelo Anthony Knicks SF 3
8 Chris Paul Hornets PG 2
7 Dirk Nowitzki Mavs PF 1
6 Dwight Howard Magic C 1
5 Dwyane Wade Heat SG 2
4 Derrick Rose Bulls PG 1

Notes
• Rankings are based solely on projected ’11-12 performance.
• Contributors to this list include: Maurice Bobb, Shannon Booher, David Cassilo, Bryan Crawford, Sandy Dover, Adam Figman, Jon Jaques, Eldon Khorshidi, Ryne Nelson, Doobie Okon, Ben Osborne, Quinn Peterson, Dave Schnur, Abe Schwadron, Dan Shapiro, Irv Soonachan, Todd Spehr, Tzvi Twersky, Yaron Weitzman, DeMarco Williams and Ben York.
• Want more of the SLAMonline Top 50? Check out the archive.

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  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    Had Rose higher on my list.

  • RyanT1992

    Not a better player than DWade, switch them round and that would be acceptable

  • dc

    no way KD is in top 3

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Before I read the write up, I wanna say, Kevin Durant’s summer must have made a huge impact on the voting. No way you can convince me what you saw from him last season was more impressive then what you saw from Derrick Rose.

  • Jolson

    There’s no way Derrick Rose is better than Dwayne Wade. Congrats SLAM, you’ve contributed to Rose being the most overrated player on the planet. Glad to see things like defense (Wade far better) and shooting (Fair enough, Wade’s not a great shooter, but Rose shot 29% on SIX 3PT attempts per game after the ASG, dude is a chucker) aren’t that important in a PG. Rose shouldn’t get all the credit for the team gaining 21 wins, and yet everyone gives it to him.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Dagger

    Nice writeup, and a good spot for Rose if we’re looking at expected production in next season. By that criteria, though, how can an aging Kobe be in the top 3? When Brown has said Kobe wouldn’t form the focal point of his offence? If we’re looking at production – not skill, not career accomplishments – how does that make sense?

  • jarrett

    I think I speak for most people commenting that DWade should be in the top 3 players in the league. Stop making biased rankings for players certain players (jennings, love, Drose) it makes SLAM look less credible when you put Rose at #4, and Kobe a better ranking than Wade. What a joke. Just turrible (barkley voice)

  • jdizzle

    How is Kobe supposed to improve to become a top 3 player at the age of 33? With players like Drose and Dwight improving?

  • Maniac

    Once again, I told you guys. I’m 2 for 2. I have no problem with this because Rose HAD A BETTER SEASON than Wade last year. What leads some of you to believe that he won’t again this year when he’s getting better by the day?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Kobe’s going to put up bigger numbers than him too? LMAO! SLAM keeps embarrassing the guys talent’s they try to center a magazine around. Keep up the great work. Kobe would be embarrassed that anyone would think he could match production with this kid today or in any foreseeable future.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Good ish BC – really good

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    And any Kobe di*k rider that says otherwise needs to go away permanently, ’cause it’s obvious you haven’t paid attention to the game for the last couple of seasons.

  • http://www.gil1906.com Pve_2

    The problem was and will be Kobe’s ranking on this list for me personally. Howard’s placing seemed a bit odd too but who knows how/when next season will be. All I do know is that Kobe won’t be better than players 1, 2/3, or 4-6 on this list.

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    -Face palm-

  • jarrett

    I’m still scratching my head over the Dwade at #5 !! I still cant believe it! Did u guys even watch the Finals ? Did anybody see the play where Wade (6’4) blocked Chandler’s dunk, got up, and finished on the other end?? How is Drose ranked higher if D Rose doesnt even play Defense !!! SMH

  • https://plus.google.com/photos/106403650426394352312/albums/posts davidR

    kobe yall musta forgot tour 2012 (2013?). so the new knees and mike brown offense is gonna shoot him back to the top?

  • Maniac

    Strictly as an overall player right now, yes Wade is better, but it’s not as concrete as people make it seem. Let Rose lead the Bulls like he did this year and patch up some weaknesses in his game.. it is very well possible that he can surpass Wade as a better player this season… Great write-up SLAM!

  • jdizzle

    Kobe’s getting some sort of lifetime achievement ranking

  • mytiman

    Glad to see Derrick Rose being better Dwyane Wade. Rose led the Bulls to the best record in the NBA, even without Noah and Boozer for the majority of the season. But I still think Derrick Rose is also better than Durant as well.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Maniac wth is your definition of better season? Playing on a better team? Or getting more MVP and 1st team votes? Cuz those are the only things Rose did better then Wade last season other then create for teammates, but he does play PG who always has the ball in his hands, so that should be a given.

  • Maniac

    And keep Kobe’s name out of yall mouths. Respect the throne.

  • https://plus.google.com/photos/106403650426394352312/albums/posts davidR

    great write-up by the way

  • http://redoftoothandclaw.ca/ niQ

    WHAT? NUMBER 4 IS JEFF FOSTER? WHAT IS UP WITH SLAM… oh wait.

  • Red Star

    Kevin Durant is good… but its sooooo hard for me to like him the way some of you people gas him up.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Megatron

    after the dwight howard and dwyane wade fiasco I was half expecting lebron to be in this spot

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Dude, maybe get Kobe’s balls out of your mouth. How anyone can get defensive about a basketball player like you have for 3 straight days is befuddling. People’s opinions are their opinions

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    And let’s be clear here too: Derrick is incredible. Until that dude who wears #6 for the Heat decides that he’s had enough of watching the kid destroy all in his path. Keep that in mind as the separation point between #4 and who SHOULD be #1 on this “list”.

  • ASH

    Perfect spot imo.Rose is growing fast in this league and of course people gonna Hate on that.

  • Flud

    700 for this one?

  • meloman2.0

    Sorry, that was me posting^ and I thought Melo was getting undervalued. Slam just treated Dwade like a second class citizen. I really don’t know how credible you guys are anymore

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Or just re-watch last season’s Conf. Finals to SEE the difference. Respect to the young Chi kid though and I think he should have been in the #2 spot for real.

  • Maniac

    nbk – Rose led a Bulls team that had no business being a #1 seed (even past the Spurs whom were a sure fire runaway early in the season). The Bulls are a borderline playoff team without Rose (and because it’s the east), but he put the team on his back. His responsibilities far surpassed Wade’s this season… and will next season too. Wade had LeBron to lean on. I’m not calling Rose a better player, but come on… Wade wasn’t even a serious MVP candidate. Rose was also better in the playoffs (every series included) until Bron shut him down. Rose’s SEASON was better.

  • chingy

    Co-sign anybody who said Drose should be higher than KD. For me, it’s a toss up between Rose and Dwade.

  • AD

    @Maniac… people dnt hav thrones and if he did than he wouldnt of gotten swept

  • chingy

    This is insane, the time it took me to write my post (like 10 seconds)…15 new posts came in!

  • AD

    Durant WIll be no.1 and lebron is no. 2

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Oh so “best basketball player” to you means, who has the most responsibility. Got it. Wade brought a team that had no business outside of the lottery to the playoffs the year before just to remind you. Oh and he has won a title. Oh and he was more productive & efficient then Derrick Rose on both sides of the court last season……….hmm, responsibility or skill? i’ll take skill

  • Maniac

    nbk – Get Wade’s out of yours first. I haven’t been overly defensive about Kobe. I respect opinions. I don’t respect that people have to go out of their way to diss him though. Enough about Kobe. This is Rose’s day.

  • Red Star

    Derrick Rose is now officially the best point guard in the league! Slam said so!!

  • Shecky Shabazz

    I think Chicago is in only a one year championship drought seeing how as though the Blackhawks won it all in 2010… With that being said, too high for Rose, which lead to being to high for Kobe (And I’m a Kobe lover and Lakers fan).

  • Red Star

    @NBK

  • Maniac

    @AD – Jordan, Magic, etc. have all been swept. So……?

  • Red Star

    @nbk here here!!

  • http://redoftoothandclaw.ca/ niQ

    Great write up btw, I actually laughed out loud at the Gilbert Arenas comment!

  • Bradrick

    That side note about John Wall, which ironically was meant as a compliment to Derrick Rose, illustrates the fundamental problem with Slam’s rankings. That is: it’s a hype machine eerily similar (in fashion and substance) to the popularity contests I used to witness in high school elections. Wall was the flavor of the month; a charisma (albeit precocious) standout with a dance to his name. He didn’t go on to have a better season than Lamar Odom (6th man of the year) or Ray Allen (the rock of Gibraltar for the Big 4),even though he was given the keys to the city in Washington. Gilbert only played 21 games (To Wall’s 69) so it can’t be said definitively Wall had a better season than him.

    What’s my point? Derrick Rose and Kevin Durant are not better basketball players than Dwyane Wade. They are great but certainly not better than Wade.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Say whatever you want about Wade. I don’t care. I am not complaining about your rankings, I’m asking about your opinion and trying to make sense of it. THat is diffferent then tellin people to keep someone’s name out their mouth. Which I’m surprised you can even see the screen with those genitals in your face

  • Maniac

    @nbk – Stop putting words in my mouth. I CLEARLY stated that Wade is overall better right now. I said Rose had the better SEASON. Like I agreed already that Wade probably had a better SEASON than Kobe last year, but that doesn’t mean they are BETTER PLAYERS. And stop talking about the year before of what Wade did. This concerns what they did last year and what you expect them to do this season.

  • Truth

    Did this dude Jarrett use a Wade block on Chandler in the finals for justification of him being a great defender. Hell Rose had a sick block on Hibbert in the 1st round , those single plays don’t make a great defender.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Megatron

    if Durant is higher than lebron on this list I dont even know what ill do. That would be true insanity

  • http://www.slamonline.com Double J

    Ok ok, for all the people arguing wade is better than rose, do you think wade deserved the MVP last season? I think not, so shut up and get off your keyboard.

  • Maniac

    And if you take skill…. WHY THE F*** have you been arguing with me over who is better between Kobe & Wade because Kobe is CLEARLY more skilled than Wade??????

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Rose will have a better season than his previous one. He is going to solidify himself as a true top five player in the NBA.

  • Maniac

    @nbk – I’m not up for it today. Fine, I’m on Kobe’s nuts! Does that make you happy???? Can we let this RIP because your bias is clear and I don’t want to tolerate it anymore.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    This is a ranking of which players are better. Maniac. Your arguing and don’t even know what about.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    MVP is not a best player award.

  • http://slamonline.com tealish

    When you can’t shoot the rock consistently, you’ll be shut down by athletic specimens like LeBron. That’s what we saw in the ECF and what we’ll see again if he doesn’t improve his shot. Still, DRose can be argued as a legitimate top 5 production player. No problems here.

  • chingy

    And this means Kobe is top three…is SLAM banking on Kobe doing a Return of the Mamba? Don’t think it’s happening. I can see Kobe trying to coast in the regular season so he’s fresh for the playoffs.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Megatron

    People like Double J upset me with their rediculous comments

  • http://www.slamonline.com UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER

    GOOD WRITE UP CRAWFID. I DONT SEE HOW ROSE’S PRODUCTION CAN GO UP NEXT( NEXT NEXT?) SEASON. IM THINKING HIS POINTS WILL GO DOWN SLIGHTLY AS THEY LOOK TO GET BOOZER GOING A LITTLE MORE, AND WHOMEVER THEY FIND AT THE TWO. WE SHALL SEE, AND THATS THE FUN OF IT ALL.

  • Maniac

    @nbk – Whatever you win. I’m done arguing with you.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    The definitive ranking of the NBA’s BEST players.

  • Truth

    Rose can improve on getting to the FT line, which will probably be aided by refereeing some this year, he made huge strides in that the second half of last season. He’ll tighten his jumper some more and will be more consistent, and upgrade at the two will not hurt Rose numbers it will make him more efficient. I see Rose at 27-9-4 next year. That’s top 5 production.

  • Maniac

    When Kevin Durant is announced as #3 tomorrow, all will be complete. The two best players in the league will sit at #1 and #2 with #3-#7 highly being debatable. @ Bryan Crawford – I got no problem with how SLAM is ranking their players though I would personally do a couple switches. It’s all legit though. Opinions will be opinions and every player has a good case for being where they were ranked.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Once again I’m not even surprised by this ranking, ever since the beginning Slam has shown a certain bias towards offensive minded players which can only explain why in the hell guys like Kobe/Rose/KD are above Wade and DHow.

  • chingy

    Ok I’m trying to justify Kobe being top 3. If these rankings are about the player to take in a one game win all scenario without the grind of the regular season, I can see Kobe as #2, maybe even #1.

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Maniac, this list is not about who’s the better player. It’s on PROJECTED PERFORMANCE. Do you think Kobe is going to improve over last season? Because Rose, Durant, and Dwight all will and Wade was greater than or equal to Kobe last season. I agree, Kobe is still one of the most talented players in the league, if not #1. However, he will not produce more than Rose, Dwight, or Wade. Durant being this high is ludicrous though.

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    Great great write up BC.

  • http://www.slamonline.com UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER

    IM PRETTY BURNT OUT ON THIS LIST. HOWEVER, I REALLY ENJOYED THE DERON VIDEO, DERON IS SICK. I MISS WATCHING BASKETBALL.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    It actually should be “respektiert den Thron”, since you know, the German Wunderkind is currently occupying said throne (after he and his team swept snakey and his merry men)
    He he he.
    YOUR 2010/2011 NBA CHAMPION DALLAS MAVERICKS!!

  • http://www.slamonline.com UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER

    AND WHERE IS THE NERVE? IT WAS FUNNY SEEING HIM TELL CRAWFID HE WAS FAKE, AND BRAGGING ABOUT BEING IN AND OUT OF THE CLINK. WHAT A GOON.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    lol, it is funny as hell looking at those old comment threads, reminiscing about what you were thinking at that time.

  • http://bedotwater.bandcamp.com BE.water

    Its like guys just dont want Kobe to be nice at what he does. Yeah, he looked slow, but so did the WHOLE LAKERS TEAM. ALL SEASON. Stop playing like Kobe isnt top 3 still. When he is playing against your team, do you wanna see him with the ball & single coverage? He takes bad shots but f*ck… The guy can HIT every single shot he puts up, thats the confidence he has in his abilities. I admire that.

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    Cosign Caboose.

  • Maniac

    @Caboose – Read what I said. I know this is on PROJECTED PERFORMANCE. That is nbk making the idiotic claim of it being a ranking of the best. Reading is fundamental. How can you be so sure Kobe won’t have a great comeback season because I’m almost certain of it. That’s just where we differ. I give the greater players the benefit of the doubt. Like I said yesterday, this is exactly what people did to Jordan when he came back with the 45. He was older, less athletic, and wasn’t his old self. You see where those opinions went right? I’m not like the rest who wants to write a guy off as soon as he hiccups. I clearly think LeBron is #1, but Kobe is still #2 no matter what the stupid media and stats say.

  • http://www.nbadraft.net Showtime

    We know i feel about this list… it the same thing Benny the Mascot be On. but if put Rose above Dwade, which is No bueno, Should he be above LaKobe & Durant. because of his same output???

  • kobe

    New List right here:

    1. Lebron James – You can’t deny he was the driving force in them making it to the finals both Defensively and Offensively. He was hitting clutch shots in the boston series, and clutch defensive plays. Aswell as bringing back the heat against the bulls and completely taking derrick rose out of his rythm in the bulls series. They dont beat Chicago and Boston without him casue wade was playing inconsistent. A post game – and better clutch recognition of pass or shoot will assure him a title. Scottie doesnt say what he said for not reason.

    2. Dwight Howard – Best player hands down on the block. This man balled in the playoffs but he’s teammates could stop watching him instead of helping. Sound familiar *cough* lebron cleveland *cough*

    3. Dwyane Wade – This man is the best 2 guard in terms of production and almost there in clutch baskets with kobe. He is nasty on O and on Defense. Look out for him to inspire more fire in lebron over the years.

    4./5. Derrick Rose/ Kevin Durant – They both are interchanable at this spot. Both lack that defensive aspect of there game to shut down anyone. But they can ball on O and are clutch.

    6. Kobe Bryant – This is not a distant 6 spot he, just is aging and it shows on Defense. He can’t keep up like he once was. But he is the man with the hot hand at teh end of a game the ball is going to him no matter what if I need a win. I can’t hate.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    I appreciate everyone reading and all of your comments. I’m going to stay out of the convo tho. You can’t please everyone and we all have our opinions which coincide with our biases. But if you really think Derrick Rose isn’t a Top 5 player in the NBA, then you need your head checked, yo. Simple as that.

  • mugiwara

    Bulls are gonna be very good next season, i expect to see roses assist go up with a more healthy supporting cast.
    I was just getting over bogut being the 7th best centre and then dwight at #6 sent me back down.

    1.lebron
    2.dwight
    3.wade
    4.kobe
    5.durant
    6.rose
    7.nowitzki
    8.Paul
    9.Deron
    10.Anthony

    Jennigns (overrated) shouldnt be on the list, should be swapped with harden. Al jefferson will put up good numbers but wont help the jazz win, Serge Ibaka should go 50 and get Al jeff off there. the three blocks Ibaka(defence, boards, relevancy) will average a game will be worth more to any team then Al jeff, plus deng should be higher then 50 (id take him over granger, depending on team circumstance of course).kevin love should be put before joe johnson at 22 and shuffle evryone down, while your at it switch aldridge and bosh.
    WHAT DOES SLAM WANT?
    O-F-F-E-N-S-E

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    LeBron, Dwight, Dwyane, Kobe, Chris Paul. I need my head checked.

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    Kobe’s list is just like I thought it would be.

  • http://www.nbadraft.net Showtime

    We know i feel about this List…it what Benny the Mascot be On.. but if your putting Rose/which is beast above Dwade/killa,(which is a NO Bueno) Shouldn’t he also be above aging Kobe, and Non killa Durant??? base on output??

  • HPiddy

    Pretty hard to argue against Rose being projected as top 5 for season, but kobe & Durant top 3? No thankyou.

  • MUBWAR

    Kobe and KD are top 3 players but Wade and Howard are not. im pretty sure Kobe won’t outperform Wade and let’s just not disrespect the 3 time reigning defensive player of the year with numbers like 22 14 1 and 2 blocks a game on 13 FGA. come on son

  • http://bulls.com airs

    haha maniac’s 12:42 comment just got me thinkin
    DEEE ROOOSE, DA HARDEST HITTIN POINT GUARD IN DA LEEEEAGUE.
    HE PUT DA TEAM ON HIS BACK DOE.

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    nbk, CP3 isn’t gonna have a more productive season than DRose, although I think he’s the better player/PG.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Megatron

    Top 10 in my opinion should be
    1. Lebron
    2. Dwight
    3. Wade
    4. Kobe
    5. CP3
    6. Rose
    7. Durant
    8. Dirk
    9. Melo
    10. Dwill

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Maniac, please give me answers to these questions. Why Kobe will have a comeback season? What defines a comeback season? What will his stats look like? Will he be an MVP candidate? Will he outperform Rose and Dwight? Because I just dont see how a comeback is possible given that he is older and carries more injuries. Mike came back strong because he didn’t have a gimpy knee. Additionally, the Spurs’ offense that the Lakers will use will draw the ball away from Kobe. I’d like detailed answers to the above questions because maybe there’s something I’m not seeing. And if you say it’s because Bean is “mentally tough” or something like that, I’ll be very disappointed.

  • Maniac

    Thanks airs

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Top rankings are pretty good. I would take Wade over Rose. Kobe is pretty much tied with Wade at this point. Dwight is hard for me to over praise too much just because he plays the weakest position in the L right now that his dominance should be expected rather than a surprise. Everyone is acting like Slam is bending them over and making them take it up the a$$ right now. Calm down ya’ll. This is a average of votes that creates these ratings and all these players are so good that it’s not stupid to take player (b) over player (a) one over another. LbJ is number one that is what everyone including Slam will agree on. 2-5 or debatable. It’s fine and good that everyone has their opinions, but remember that they are just that. You don’t know what stats and production Kobe would have had next to LbJ on the Heat and vise versa with Wade on the Lakers. Nice write up BC.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Last comment: If the League MVP is not ranked in your Top 5, then you’re doing it wrong.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Max, I don’t think Paul will be more “productive” then Rose because people focus on PPG so much when talkin about productivity. But I do think he will be similarly productive overall just much much more efficient.

  • AD

    @Maniac they dnt have the thrones either

  • http://www.nbadraft.net Showtime

    I think all people who are rational had 1. lebron, 2. D12, 3. Wade. 4. Rose 5. Kobe

  • AD

    Durantula… NO.1 Kobe is a scrub… shud be no. 40

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Enough with this “kobe can hit every shot” nonsense because he doesn’t, he hits about 45% of his career shots. Can we please stop living in this fantasy world where players aren’t judged off their on-the court performance but what we believe they can do in the Land of Oz?

  • Maniac

    Bryan – I’m not going to go that far and say it’s insane to not consider Rose top 5. (nbk is trippin because Rose is the best pg in the L). IMO, Rose, Wade, & Durant are in that group right under LBJ & Kobe that’s trying to get to that next level (Wade won’t get there). Dwight is a big man so he is in a separate category and idk what the hell to consider Dirk. Those seven are the clear seven best in the league. SLAM nailed that on the head. With that, Rose is CLEARLY a top 5 perimeter player, but some people’s opinions on D12 & Dirk could push him out of the top 5 overall.

  • http://bulls.com airs

    i still got an issue with the cp3 thing
    before i say anything else i just want to make it known that i think CP is THE BEST PG in the entire NBA.
    but not the best overall player.
    we could argue stats, efficiency, per all day, but it doesn’t shake my opinion.
    i’ll take a win over any other stat everytime, so yeah drose is top 5 on my list.

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    Well we’ll see if there is gonna be a season. If 08 CP3 is back thqn you might be right.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    I can live with this spot for Drose, and quite honestly I wouldn’t even be mad if Dwade was higher just out of respect and also his ability (although I do like to remember people he’ll turn 30 soon, relies heavily on athletisicm, which will be fading, has proven to be injury-prone, and is still an undersized SG), but as of right now he’s a little better than Drose. Not so happy with KD surpassing Rose, and not so happy that Kobe is going to be higher as well. I love Kobe, I really do, but if these are ‘projections’ for the future as well, no way in hell Kobe is outplaying Drose. LeBron should be No1 no question about it. 1 LeBron, 2 Dwade, 3 Drose, 4 CP3 (healthy ?) 5 Dhow, 6 KD 7 Dirk 8 Kobe.

  • VanCityBBall

    i do believe KD deserse the next spot but with that being said i would take Rose over Dwayne… just remember that yes Rose did incredibly without Joakim Boozer but considering the team in OKC before kendrick Perk arrived virtually centre-less (all due respect) KD was man enough to walk into the spot light and help carry the team on him back.. Rose and KD are both progressing in their D. With that being said, if Lebum is next THEN Kd then i will be shocked becuz i love the kid and i hate LBJ but i give respect where respect is due

  • Maniac

    @airs- thanks

  • Jer Dawg

    No body has a bigger grudge than Kobe. If SLAM is predicting what will next season look like look no further than Kobe IF he is indeed #1. I doubt it, but IF he is nobody is more furocious than he in making a statement after an “off” season. Lebron is the best all around player, but do YOU want him in the clutch? SOmething isn’t clicking with him and supposedly the past season he was supposed to click with the 3some in Miami. Apparently not. Durant makes strides, but he seems content with Westbrook taking his shine. hmmm. Durant is clutch as heck, but he was okay taking backseat during a stretch in the playoffs.
    Kobe backs down and plays 2nd fiddle to nobody. Thus PROBABLY, stretching, making him #1. But, I won’t hold my breath. I’ll be damn glad if he made #1.

  • Maniac

    @AD – whatever

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    1 year after winning the MVP Dirk was ranked #12 in the Slam Rankings. So save me with that “top 5″ BS

  • Jetfuel

    no no no… from what is left, Rose is #2!

  • AD

    @jer dawg sooo u think kobe is gonna come back stonger at 4o wit weak knees…. i dn think so but hey….. its kobe right

  • Maniac

    Caboose, I’m not going to sit here and like any other Kobe crazed idiot and make stupid claims. I can’t predict the future and neither will I try. I’m simply saying that Kobe is not done. That’s it. I’m not about to throw out a crazy stat either because they are meaningless without context. Maybe it is because Kobe is my favorite player and I’m HOPING that he comes back on fire next year. FYI, he was a MVP candidate this year. A comeback season would be a season of redemption where you prove yourself of against the ones who doubted you. That’s the most general definition I can give you. You may not see it, but you may not see other intangibles when it comes to other players so idk. Everyone’s faith and logic isn’t the same. All I can say is that I can’t wait till next year to see what Kobe is made of; I have faith in him.

  • Maniac

    @LakeShow – thanks for the backup

  • Maniac

    I’m out

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Nbk, I was just about to post that myself. I love Rose, but his defense should really keep him in the 7-6 range.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    People act like every game comes down to the last shot. Out of all those clutch shots Melo has hit in his career (most in the NBA), how many of them has he hit in the playoffs and how many times has he gotten past the first round. Yes, ability to make clutch plays are important but people are acting like it’s the only factor needed when ranking players. I guess playing great defense, making plays for your teammates, and controlling the boards don’t count, it’s all about the “clutch gene”.

  • http://www.nba.comI Showtime

    Their no way if your gonna put rose,above d wade, { which is NO Bueno} that you dont put him above a aging kobe, and a non aproved durant, base off of projection or out put., I think most rational people had #1,lebron, #2 d12,, #3 d wade, #4 rose & then Kobe or,durant @ the 5

  • http://www.slamonline.com Megatron

    fair enough, the drose/cp3 thing is tricky because I think cp3 is a better point guard but a case can easily be made that rose should be higher on this list.

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    I’m a Magic fan. I believe Gilbert will come back and average 29-6 and prove everyone wrong. I really really hope he does so I’m going to rank him ahead of DRose too. Because I think he can get back to the point he was before injuries.

  • Fennis Dembo(not)

    I think Lebirck is #1. the rest of the type 5 are interchangeable. Kobe,drose,dwade, & durant. Kobe could still be more productive next season than dwade. Now people keep noting dwade proformance in the finals. well what about the easter conference finals were wade was horrible in. he missed two wide open dunks! and countless layups. He did not look like a top 5 player! He step it up in the finals though. thats why i’m not hard on bron for his diapering act (for the 2nd time in the playoff). he just had a bad series. wade had a bad series in the ecf, bosh just had a bad season altogether!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Megatron

    How the eff can people say that durant is “clutch as heck”… he really isnt.. at all

  • http://www.slamonline.com UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER

    NBK POINTING IT RIGHT BACK AT YOU

  • ripslam

    Kobe at #3, Durant at #2, and LeBron at #1. There is no way you can still say KB is the 2nd best player in the League.

  • http://shinefluid@aol.com yada

    i aintmad at the list but KOBE?? he’s like 33 on his last legs

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    I’m a Magic fan. I believe Gilbert will come back and average 29-6 and prove everyone wrong. I really really hope he does so I’m going to rank him ahead of DRose too. Because I think he can get back to the point he was before injuries simply because he has so many intangibles that only I can see.

  • http://shinefluid@aol.com yada

    oh yea all the summer games got durant above rose. kinda like last year team usa summer had durant about to take the #1 spot from lebron. but lebron and rose had a better season

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I have him and Durant at 6 & 7, interchangeable. I am not going to act like Ms. Cleo and predict they make some kind of big jump as 2-way players (like the guys that should be in the top 5 did at some point earlier in their careers) Slam got it right with Rose last season predicting he make a big leap, but this is a smaller, tougher, jump. I wholeheartedly understand having Rose in the top 5, I get that people value what he brings over what Chris Paul brings. But I personally value what Paul brings to an entire game over what Rose provides offensively.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Your last statement Maniac, about faith in the Bean is exactly what I usually say. It sounds stupid, but hundreds of times as a Laker fan you could catch me on the edge of my seat with minutes waning down and then I just tell myself to calm down because the best closer since MJ is on your team. What do you know… KB comes through. I have put my hopes and dreams of him winning a chip post Shaq on him and he delivered twice to the full extent. I cannot and will not doubt Bean till he is literally on his last legs. He was slower last year. Didn’t jump or dunk or block much. BUT, he still did not look bad. Not enough to think that a special surgery from over in Euroland could not have him coming back to the form of the year previous. I know you don’t wanna put some stupid stats out there, but I do fully expect him to have a higher PPG average, and 5 and 5(ast,rbs). Will he have a more productive year than LbJ or Dwight or maybe even D-Rose or KD or D-Wade? Maybe not, maybe so. What I do expect is a Championship and the first year where Kobe learns to play with his new found (OLD) body.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    NBK : touché. Nice counter.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Megatron

    there is also no way people can say durant is the 2nd best player in the nba

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Holy sh*t.
    I come into work, and wait for the #4 to post, and nothing.
    Then I head into a meeting, hour long, come back, and BAM!
    Over a hundred comments already.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    One of the 1:43p comments symbolizes what a deranged “stan” is. Take your pick.

  • http://bulls.com airs

    aint no thing maniac.
    so who else is joining the 2k12 league

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Bryan Crawford.
    My man.
    Great write up, fam.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Damn.
    Lakeshow needs to chill…

  • http://www.slamonline.com Double J

    My argument is that Derrick Rose had the best season, of any player last year, and thus his spot is warranted. This same assumption can be used to state Rose’s case for warranting the number 1 spot, although the idea that Lebron will be a better (& more consistent) force cannot be denied.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    thanks Dark. The double standards around here are fun. Putting Kobe infront of Rose, while having Wade behind him is the most hypocritical thing I have ever seen on this list. Logically, somebody explain that to me? The key word being logically

  • manu

    i don’t like the heat or bulls but its safe to say rose is better then wade no contest

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    airs, me

  • brad

    One of the greatest competitors and leaders in the game, and this kid is only scratching the surface on how good he eventually will be. Works on every hole in his game because he has a thirst to be great. 2 years from now this ranking may be too low for the kid…..

  • http://nba.com GP23

    I’m joining the 2k league. Oh and that “Gilbert “I Bring Guns To” Arenas” was hilarious… I agree with this, Rose was the MVP for christ sake!! yeah, he may not be better than D-Wade, but still, Rose had a bigger impact for the bulls this past season than Wade did for the Heat. Unlucky for Wade, he is now in LeBron’s shadow for the forethcoming season. #gamerecognizegame

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Max, did you join yet? If so, what team you pick?
    airs, I don’t know if you replied to my message from last night, but I’m dead serious!
    I’ll trade you Boozer for Durant! You need a low-post scoring presence!
    LMAO

  • http://www.nbadraft.net Showtime

    @airs im down with 2k12 league

  • AD

    @airs is it on 360?

  • http://bulls.com airs

    hahah, i replied bro!
    i said no john lucas, NO deal.

  • Andrew Woods

    I dont agree with the ‘mvp had to be top 5′. Dirk was a great player and had a great year. Also he won the chip which I think carries more weight than a ‘mvp’ season. Ask kobe I think he would agree. Also, I dont understand dhowards stat line can be so undervalued. Rose production will not touch dhowards stat line. 24-14!!!???

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    LMAO!
    For those of you who didn’t see yesterday, I started a private online league for NBA 2k12 on PS3.
    Just go to join a private league, the name is “SLAM Commenters” minus the quotation marks.

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    Enig, no not yet, my ps3 was broke so they had to fix it, and I get it back on thursday. I think I’ll join as the Grizzlies or Magic.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Who has the Heat, Enig?

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    I don’t mind Kobe being top 5, cause he is, but the people he’s higher than?
    Wade, Rose, Howard?
    I dunno…

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Eboy, I can’t hear you when you talk with you ‘jerk off each other with our tears crew’ shoving their d*cks into your mouth. I just hear, “gurgle, gurgle, gurgle.” I mean sh*t man, can you even talk. You talked sh*t all last season and your boys looked like a buncha scrubs at the end of the day. You have two MVP candidates on your team. The two best players in the L according to most people on here, and they couldn’t win a a Chip still. Hit me back when you pull the Kings staff out your ass old man. :) *All in good fun*

  • http://nba.com GP23

    matic.. what teams are still available to play as??

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    smh

  • Confususs

    To those who say the league MVP HAS to be top five: GTFO. That would mean Nash was a top five player with his two bull**** MVPs, of which Kobe deserved one of (05-06).

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Orl is mine *hands off*

  • Kadavour

    who’s starting the xbox360 league? someone get that going by the same name. dibs on the Nets.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    whoever does, holler at your boy. And I don’t give a sh*t what team I get stuck with.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Lakeofnothing, the Heat weren’t swept of the 2nd round or took a loss by 30 plus with the “greatest savior” in all of basketball on their squad when they needed him the most and he failed as usual. And squared up head to head, the Heat whipped the Laker’s ass twice last season, so ride out with Kobe’s nut’s in your hand for someone else who cares and keep watching your Laker title dvd’s as that’s the closest Kobe will ever be again to a title win.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    that’s why I said smh

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    Guess I’ll take the Grizz than lol.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    ^No need to read. I just hear “GURGLE, GURGLE, GURGLE, SWALLOW” … REPEAT.
    LOL, i’d prefer to not talk with you though. Some how a 50 year old man makes me allot less mature when I speak with him.. hmm, says allot.

  • Kadavour

    people are overstating Kobe’s ability to perform next season. Does anyone remember how good he looked in the first 20 games last season when he was just bullying kids in the post? I don’t know what happened to make him go away from that, but it looks like it was a focus of this off season’s touch ups and improvements. its funny to see ppl talking about a “comeback” season for a guy that averaged 25, 5, and 5. if he keeps the post up game going all season, we can expect 25-27, 5 and 5 on a team with about 53-58 wins. that’s top 5 production in my mind.

  • Kadavour

    understating****!!!

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    WoW Lakeshow, way to look like a butt-hurt inmate.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Sure…mess around and get stuck with the raptors and watch someone 21 skunk that a**.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I’ll smack somebody with the Raptors. lol

  • Quincy

    The remaining list will be:
    #3 Kobe
    #2 Durant
    #1 LBJ
    If you don’t think Lebron will have a monster season then you are crazy. He will have a full season with his team (hopefully) I believe all of his stats will rise slightly.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    GP23 – only teams taken are Bulls (me), Thunder (airs), Lakers (Maniac), and unofficially Magic (JTaylor) and Grizzlies (Max)

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    nbk, you really wanna start this up homie? You really wanna E-Thug, I ain’t even down for this at all. I want to talk basketball. I’m done with you on this site. Your the biggest hypocrite on this site and I’m done. You don’t wanna talk basketball you just want to start fights and argue. So you and your fellow LbJ lover can do your thing together. Feel free to not ever speak to me on these forums again. I can’t stop you, but just know that I find very very very little value in what you have to say, and you have more to say than everyone else. Enjoy your life through SLAM tho buddy.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Damn.
    Lakeshow needs to chill…

  • http://slamonline.com Tae

    Im with Maniac, Kobe for tha win. Wade nor Rose nor Howard is better than him. He’s still tha best in my book. Yea i said it, tha best. Injuries have slowed him, not his age. He is still tha most skilled and driven

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Lakeshow nobody provoked you to act like a little b*tch. You did that on your own. I was just letting you know. I don’t give a damn on earth how you feel about my opinion. And it sure seems like you want to talk about basketball the way you just threw your tampon at Eboy like he stole your cookies.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    If you’re trying to make fun of someone for having fun with your “life through SLAM”, as if it’s an insult of some form, then explain how you are any different since, you know, you’re opinion is always front and center when comes time to defend a certain past his prime player? I’ll wait, ’cause it’s not like you don’t “live” here either.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I was with Bryan until the line about MVPs getting a top five spot off GP.
    Wonder if he said that about Nash and Dirk back in the day?
    Methinks not.
    Lol.

  • http://slamonline.com Tae

    @Eboy, u really think Kobe not gonna win another ship??? Really? U Kobe haters crack me up

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    @Allenp: You got me… lol. But yeah, it applies to those guys too.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And it’s not that I can’t see Rose in your top five in you honestly believe he’s better than Deron and Chris Paul.
    I don’t honestly believe that, so whether he’s MVP or not doesn’t mean I think he’s going to take a leap over those two in their primes. Especially not with Paul having an entire year to recuperate from his knee injury.
    I still see it as Paul, Deron… then Rose. There is a gap to me.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I really, don’t no. Why? Cause there’s too many teams on the come up who are going to control the league for about the next 6-8 seasons. By that time, Kobe will be almost 40. The Thunder, Heat, Bulls, Clippers (yeah, I said it). The Lakers have another run in them, but the West ain’t no cakewalk anymore and the Mavs are still there. Some of the teams I mentioned may even win multiple titles. Living in the past is cool and all, but these teams aren’t going to be fearing some one legged dude’s legacy.

  • Ouse

    When Charles Barkley talks about the sh*t list, does he mean the Slam top 50?

  • kobe

    The thing with the chris paul and Derrick rose thing. It is liek comparing Iverson to John stockton. One is a PG True to the fullest in paul and the other in more of a scoring point guard like rose. Its pick your poison. But rose ahead of people because the ppg bias i beleive. But rose also had to score that much for his team where as paul may not have.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    You can’t apply the rule retroactively!
    I knew you didn’t have Dirk or Nash in your top five because very, very few fans of a certain hue did. Some might say it was a bias, but I just felt like they were lacking as complete players regardless of what the awards said.
    I mean, when Dirk was MVP who honestly thought he was the best at his position? Over KG and Duncan? Crazy talk.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Umm, well Eboy it appears you have a life because your not around all that much. You’ll notice my hours on SLAM are the hours I get paid to be on SLAM. Never without pay for me.

    nbk,

    “Eboy Posted: Oct.25 at 1:46 pm
    One of the 1:43p comments symbolizes what a deranged “stan” is. Take your pick.
    Enigmatic Posted: Oct.25 at 1:50 pm
    Damn.
    Lakeshow needs to chill…”

    They wrote this because I was sharing something with Maniac that is something that every fan goes through. I’m soooo sorry that I somehow it offended everyone so much. It was totally over the line I know. I totally need to chill talking about my team passionately and sh*t. I mean seriously who cares and has passion for baskeball? I’m such a dork for thinking that Slam would be a good place to talk about basketball. I can’t believe I did that. LMAO off at you weirdo regulars.

    I only go off like that when provoked so it’s up to ya’ll if you wanna send me down that path. I have no problem being a immature child online. It has no affect on my real life. I would like to remain civil and have good discussions, but it’s obvious that that’s not what your thing is. And that fine. To each his own. If ya’ll hate me so much just ignore me and do not talk to me. I have absolutely NO problem with that. If I say something to you just ignore it and i’ll do that same. To those of you that want to talk about basketball and not prison rape like it’s a funny joke your welcome to start up a convo. Cool? Cool.

  • MLK4Life

    Great article Bryan. Can’t disagree with anything you said. No need to give my opinion. Doesn’t really matter. D-Rose, great player, great guy, going to get better. SLAM is by far the best basketball magazine out. You all do a great job.

  • http://slamonline.com Maurice Bobb

    Way to sling some ink BC! My first encounter with Derrick Rose was the NCAA Championship game vs. Kansas. It was my first time seeing him play in person and I was in awe. I knew he was gonna be special.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Slam Didn’t.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    that was in response to Allen

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I have Paul ahead of Rose because he’s a better player.
    He’s not a better athlete.
    But he’s more efficient, he’s smarter, he’s a better passer, better defender just better at most facets of basketball.
    Yes, Rose’s scoring was awesome last year, but we’ve seen Paul drop 22 a game, PLUS 10+ assists. Derrick had 25 and 7.
    Put it this way, I think that Rose did an awesome job with that Chicago team and was their engine. But, I think Paul would have made those other players, the ones that everybody says can’t do anything, better. He would have made them look good. I saw what he did with Aaron Gray, David Andersen and Jason Smith. I’m a believer now.

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    Kobe, AI was a 2guard, DRose is a scoring 1.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    The more I think about it the more D-Rose deserves this spot. Although I believe D-Wade is the better talent. The reason why I have to put D-Rose here is how much he does for his team. Dwight is the only one that does more for his team than D-Rose does. That has to be factored in somewhere. The MVP thing doesn’t matter to me. An MVP could be out of the top 10 best players in the L. D-Rose does so much more for the Bulls than D-Wade does for the Heat IMO.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Hey now, Allen.
    Not everyone says Rose’s teammates can’t do anything, and I already think they’re nice.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    *just not at scoring sometimes, lol.

  • http://stapledesign.com Spaceship Jay

    Good Lord, Thank you Allen.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    You are in the minority, clearly.
    And I agree that Derrick Rose does more for the Bulls than Wade does for the Heat, although the gap is not that large.
    But Dirk does more for the Mavs than Wade does for the Heat.
    Z-Bo might do more for the Grizzlies.
    Aldridge does more for the Blazers.
    None of these people is a better player, nor do I expect them to be next season. But, that’s just me opinion

  • BAWSE

    Great ranking. To all the Dwade riders, DWADE did it to himself by buddy hustling with Lechoke. DRose carried his squad singlehandley. I have no issues with the top 10 so far. Saying D Rose is better than Kobe is not watching the full 48 minutes of basketball. Kobe is still the illest. People just want to judge him b.c he is not Avg 30 pts but those same people would knock him if he was.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    This is a ranking of who is better at basketball right? Definitive ranking of the league’s best, means literally, the best players right? Because I have seen people argue for this spot, and say Dwyane Wade is a better basketball player in the same comment. And I have seen the “he does more for his team” argument like 10 times, when that should be irrelevant shouldn’t it? Unless those things whatever guy does for his team is at a better level then the guy he is being ranked over could do those things if he were asked to by his team.

  • AD

    @bawse dwade took his team to the finals,,, drose lost to dwade… lebron…. Kobe is an 45 year old bum

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Like what BAWSE just said. Wade does more for the Heat then Kobe does for the Lakers. Rose does more for the Bulls then Wade does for the Heat. So in what world does it make sense to have Kobe above both of them?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And I’m not going to argue anymore about the ranking because honestly it’s not a travesty. I don’t agree, but it’s not a travesty.
    Dude was nice, this clearly reflects that he’s nice, and that’s that.
    I actually was more upset that Kobe was so high, and that Bogut was so low. And “upset” is a bit of hyperbole.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    I’ma just start calling Rose “The Ant” the way Rose apparently carried the weight of his whole squad all by his lonesome to the ECF.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Definitely fair points Allen. I think that D-Rose’s skill level is way higher than Z-Bo, and LA’s. Dirk has an argument imo for being a little closer to the top. D-Rose is the closest to Wades skill while doing so much more for his team. It shouldn’t be the main factor but it should be part of the best player rank imo. Wade>Rose slightly. Rose much more vital to his teams success. So if it is accounted for at all in these ranking(which Slam has not defined to well) then I understand why Rose is a spot ahead of Wade.

  • http://nba.com GP23

    Luol Deng had a huge impact in getting the Bulls to the ECF as well as Rose.. still think Luol was criminally underrated in these rankings.

  • DJ MBENGA

    People need to chill out with their criticisms of the list. Don’t like it? Make your own then.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Slam has a comment section so we comment and build up traffic. Nothing does that like criticism. So you might not like it, but Slam does.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    I’m just glad the comments on this one didn’t eclipse 500+.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Enigmatic
    You know I really respect you for pointing out the accomplishments of the other Bulls, even if your reason for doing that is your love for one of the blood sucking organizations depriving us of basketball.
    Too often stars get too much credit and too much blame.
    Like with Iverson in 2001. Yeah, he carried that team offensively, but just like with the Bulls, those other guys were HORSES on defense. For real. Top to bottom, AI was the only weak link on defense who got playing time. That’s crazy.
    Deng can hoop. Boozer can hoop*. Noah can hoop. Hell, all of these cats are in the Top 50!

  • Kadavour

    Derrick Rose is a SG. There are WAY too many PGs in the league right now who can control tempo and see the floor better than this kid. I insist upon his moniker, AI Lite. Allen’s point about putting CP3 on that Chicago squad says it all. Kyle Korver was more dangerous when Dwill was getting him the ball. Same with Ronnie Brewer. Those guys’ numbers havent changed much, but how they produce. I wish i could name some quantifiable criteria for these observations, but it just doesn’t look as easy for them anymore. The difference is most telling with Booz. The pick and roll just isn’t the same anymore, am i alone on this one?

  • http://nba.com GP23

    out of curiosity… what is the record amount of comments on an article on this site?? The highest amount I have seen is around 750 when it was the ’07 all star game play by play thread… anyone top that?????

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    1400 and somethin I believe GP

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    For someone who’s never played shooting guard in his life, he sure has a lot of y’all thinking he is one.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    NBK- being an idiot again, Maniac is right in saying Rose had a better season last year, and this goofy wants to bring up things from five years ago, he is not saying he is a better player, yet. He is just saying he had the better season last year, which is not far-fetched.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Enigmatic, Chill bro… Seriously your like freaking out dude.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    In an argument about whether or not Rose should be ahead of Wade, Maniac admits Wade is better at basketball. Only an idiot (which is now you Ric) can’t see the problem in bringing that up again.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    haha Lakeshow is hilarious

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    As usual, cosign nbk and Enig.

  • Wray

    i like the asterick on boozer*, i’ll be putting that by his name from now on.
    DEEEE ROSEEEE.
    PUT DA TEAM ON HIS BACK DOE.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    List:
    1.KD
    2.Lebron
    3.Kobe
    Think slam is going to heavily favor durant and mention him as next years MVP.

  • http://bulls.com airs

    howa

  • http://bulls.com airs

    freakin frick.
    wray was me.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Enigmatic, what’s the holdup with the league? It says the League starts in 7+ hrs.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nate

    People on here need to get they mind right , if you dnt believe Derrick rose doesn’t deserve this spot then you deaf , dumb and stupid because drose was a beast last season he showed the haters he can lead also improved a non-existent jumpshot . Every comment on here is saying drose “doesn’t play defense” he actually not that bad on defense he’s not a lock down defender but yu guys act like every point guard in the league was dropping 30+points on him
    Just stop it yu guys are just picking at little errors in his gm that he will Improve on ! Once he address his other weakness then yu guys goin say oh “he doesn’t have a post gm ” gtfoh !

  • Truth

    Korver shot 42% from 3 this year on 289 attempts, the previous year he shot 54% on 110 attempts, the year before that he shot 39% on 267 attempts. So the one season where he shot the least amount of shots and shot such a strong percentage was almost an anomaly.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    @Allenp, yeah that gap was out of the playoffs, 1st round, ECF.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Now we saying deron and paul are as great as KG and TIM DUNCAN! smh

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    LOL @ Lake!
    Nah, I really don’t care.
    The sh*t is just funny to me, especially “DIE HARD” Bulls fans who talk sh*t about every player but Rose.
    I am now convinced there are Bulls fans, and there are Rose fans.
    Bulls fans like the whole team….except for Boozer….and John Lucas…and maybe Keith Bogans too.
    Bulls fans know that while Derrick Rose is FAR and AWAY the most important part of the Bulls, their winning 62 games was a collective effort and also would not have been possible were it not for Luol Deng, Joakim Noah, Taj Gibson, etc. AS WELL as Rose.
    Rose fans will just go on and on about how Rose did EVERYTHING for the Bulls, how the Bulls would’ve gone reverse ’96 Bulls without him, how the rest of the Bulls sucked.
    F*ck that, I’m a Bulls fan.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Nate, we are discerning the best players in the league from one another. Not Derrick Rose from Brandon Jennings. — ANd we are saying Rose isnt an elite defender, he is an elite offensive player, but not defender. THe thing you’ll notice about LeBron, Dwight, Dwyane, Chris Paul – They are elite defenders for their positions. Kobe has been an elite defender in the past, show the ability to do it, just not on the regular. That is the difference for a lot of us commenters. It’s like splitting hairs, but then again, we are giving them value based on their rankings, so splitting hairs is necessary.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nate

    I don’t understand how you guys say rondo , cp , westbrook etc. are better defenders then rose ?!? Is it because rose doesn’t gamble on ever play as much as these dudes do ?!?

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    JTaylor – once a league is created, it takes 24 hours to start. Wasn’t anything I could do about it.
    We need more people anyways, otherwise you’re gonna be playing the computer every time you’re not playing the Bulls, Thunder, Lakers and Grizzlies.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    NBK is illiterate, I said nothing about Rose being better than wade dummy.

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Nate, if you can’t see that difference, you should stop commenting.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Nate… You serious bro?… Cheesh.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Nate – Rondo, CP, Westbrook do a better job of keeping their guy out of the paint, they are better help defenders (except at the Rim, but Rose plays PG that doesn’t really change much about his overall defensive worth), and they exhibit a higher overall defensive IQ on the court. (It’s not to say that Rose is a bad defender, he’s probably slightly above average, just not elite, yet – he does have all the tools, and the work ethic to get their in the near future though)

  • http://dimemag.com Royal

    Derrick Rose is a point guard. He knows how to create for others and he knows when to push the break and when to slow things down and run the half-court offense. In my opinion Derrick’s ability to control the tempo is one of the biggest things that seperate him from being someone like Russell Westbrook.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Sigh
    If you think the Hornets sans David West were in any way comparable to the Bulls, you are being ridiculous.
    Of course the HOrnets lost in the first round. Their second best player was out and they were playing the defending champs. It’s a miracle they won two games, and in those two wins, Paul was on another level.
    And I didn’t compare Paul and Deron to Duncan and KG.
    But, I’m through. I’ve made a promise to myself not to debate with people who misrepresent or misunderstand what I type. That only leads to frustration.

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Royal: Add shot selection to that criteria as well.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Royal knows what’s up.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Read the whole conversation Ric. Come back smarter

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    yeah I know i’m being ridiculous with that statement but so are you saying Its cp3, deron… and then Rose. You can say you think they’re better which I completely disagree with but to put it as if there is no competition between them and him is ridiculous to me.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nate

    Well you guys make seem like he’s melo on the floor just letting people go past him and point and yell help lol . One of the things drose was praised for at Memphis was defense now he’s a bad defender ? Just dnt get it but I see your point @nbk

  • http://www.twitter.com/nflem41 Nicolas Fleming

    Just getting my commenting numbers up. Oh, we don’t count the number of comments here? As you were.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Allen, my love isn’t “for one of the blood sucking organizations depriving us of basketball”, it’s for the squad that reps my city.
    But I know we’ll never see eye to eye on that one so it’s whatever.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    I read it, and you said nothing credible or of importance in the whole conversation, typical for you.

  • http://stapledesign.com Spaceship Jay

    I feel that some of you just type things out of boredom… like a basketball version of Brick Tamland (look it up). Who brought up KG and TD? Co-sign Kadavour’s overlooked comment as well. DRose is who WE wanna see play for the excitement he brings to the game. I’m sure if you cast a vote, players would pick CP3 as who they would wanna play with on their team. Oh wait, Allenp already said it.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Nate, you’re gonna bring up his defense at Memphis???
    You think D-ing up college kids who played for SMU and UTEP and were never going to sniff the NBA is comparable to trying to guard CP, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Tony Parker, etc.?

  • http://slamonline.com tina

    Naming the top 5 is such a sensitive subject. I love Kobe, but he should’ve been #5. There’s no denying age is a big factor.

  • http://stapledesign.com Spaceship Jay

    I would like to think of it this way when it comes to comparing players of the same position… simply switch teams, then objectively (if you can) think of the end results for both teams generally. I remember there being arguments of CP3 vs. Rondo.. Really? So trade player for player and get back to me on the results. Rose cannot be denied as a top 5 player as of now… but not the best pg.

  • http://www.twitter.com/nflem41 Nicolas Fleming

    The NBA is where specialties are made. DRose was a good defender in college and Melo’s Syracuse squad was home to a dirty defense, but neither of those guys make their living on the defensive end at the next level. People work ont he things that make them their paycheck and the ceiling of potential determines that. If DRose was just an athlete, he could train to be a defensive phenom, but he is a point guard and starting point guards make more of an impact and more of a salary than defensive stoppers. Couple that with actually being the man on a team and spending your energy running the show and it’s easy to see why DRose isn’t the best defender on his team. And saying NBK says nothing of importance is trash.
    I leave with this, the unwarranted hate of this list is just that, unwarranted. Is it perfect? No, but it’s a collection of people who I trust with basketball much more than anybody at ESPN. It’s not my top 10, but hey it isn’t your top 10 either, and it probably wasn’t the exact top 10 of anyone who made this list. I don’t see much separation between 6 and 1, so I ain’t mad at cha.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    kadavore, yes you’re alone, do you know korver performed better in the fourth quater last season than any of his previous season, why? you ask, you already know, and boozer was injured last season and had knick-knack injuries here and there, so comparing that whole experience they had with williams to ONE season is follish and jayspaceship, shut up idiot and read the comments before voicing your weak opinion.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Nicolas Fleming is pretty smart.
    He should write a blog and call it like, “The Tot He Diaries” or something….

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    lol

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    @nicholas fleming, shut up dude, your opinion holds no more weight than anybody elses. Nbk is a dummy, this fool is the only one who acts like he cant comprehend anything.

  • http://www.twitter.com/nflem41 Nicolas Fleming

    I will say that I was shocked to see Kobe at No. 7 on ESPN, but I can also say I am shocked to see Kobe in the top 3 at SLAM. Again, I suppose it is all in how you determine what “Best” means.
    Now tot he position rankings. It’s a team-by-team basis as many people before me have said. Would Boston trade Rajon for Rose? Probably not. Is Rose better than Rajon? Yes. Is Chris Paul still the best overall PG in the L? Probably. Does Rose deserve to be ranked ahead of CP3 as an NBA player? Definitely. Wrap your head around that and thne you can see how a Top 50 list can get sticky.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Spaceship
    So, do you think Derrick Rose is a better player than Chris Paul, but not a better point guard?
    I’m curious about that argument, which seems to have traction among many people.
    Granted, Paul had a down year by any standards last year, but it was his first year back from major knee surgery. That typically takes 18 months to recover from, if what I’ve read is correct.
    I honestly don’t think Rose is a better overall player than Chris Paul. Now granted, it’s hard to separate the position a player players from their worth as a player. After all, there are different expectations for shooting guards and point guards and meeting those expectations impacts how we view them.
    But, if I was stacking Rose and Paul up side by side, I can’t see why I would have a completely healthy Paul as an inferior player.
    Scoring: Rose
    Passing: Paul
    Defense: Paul
    Rebounding: push
    Leadership: Paul
    Efficiency: Paul
    Ability to boost team: Paul
    I think the ability to make players around you play significantly better is one of the rarest and most valuable abilities in basketball. Not just better, but significantly better. Surprisingly better in fact.
    It’s what separates Paul from every other point guard from what I’ve seen. Nobody does that better than him, and not just because he draws attention, but because he just seems to make plays that make people look good. Oh well, I’m rambling.

  • http://www.twitter.com/nflem41 Nicolas Fleming

    @Ric, I thought I made it abundantly clear that my opinion holds no more weight than anyone elses?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    ” And saying NBK says nothing of importance is trash” yeah, very crystal clear.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nate

    I love how @enigmatic is a ” bulls fans” but too me you sound like skip bayless lol hating on derrick rose but then saying that’s ya boy ?!? Haha

  • http://slam blinda

    Now that Rose has an elite coach to work with, the sky’s the limit. Thibs made Rondo into an elite passer and defender, so what do you think he can do with Rose. Once he becomes better at pick and roll and picking apart the double and triple teams, the Bulls will be for real.

  • http://www.twitter.com/nflem41 Nicolas Fleming

    Well, because opinions and outrageous statements fuel by emotion are quite different. I don’t always agree with nbk, but his comments aren’t trash, just like I rarely agree with Jtaylor, but his comments aren’t trash either. But all of that is something else entirely. The Farmer Jones is writing No. 3. It has to be Kobe, I’m stoked for tomorrow!

  • http://stapledesign.com Spaceship Jay

    Ha Ha Ha! ‘shut up idiot’; I think Slick Ric is certified internet tough. Your ‘cant’ needs an apostrophe. You CAN’T type anything incorrectly when trying to insult someone else yo. Who’s pu**y enough to name call in a basketball discussion? Anybody doing the 2k Association for the 360?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    I believe I’ve already stated that CP3 can keep his best pg title, that sh*t is minute, while Rose is on the verge of WINNING titles.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Yes, Nate.
    I am THE BIGGEST Derrick Rose hater on SLAM Online.
    Ask any of these cats, they’ll tell you.
    I hate that Jennifer Carpenter looking mother*cker.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    jayspaceship, english professor huh? GTFOH, this is a comment thread jacka**, not a classroom, no ones trying to impress anybody.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nate

    @enigmatic lol

  • http://stapledesign.com Spaceship Jay

    Allenp; It’s a tough thought to express when it comes to comparing the two. Your right about CP3 being the better player period (in my humble *cough* opinion); it’s just hard to override the fact that Derrick can potentially become a better pg than he already is now mentally, when it comes to the in’s and out’s of playing pg. CP3 pretty much has that down packed, and if anything his athleticism will only be going downhill since last year. Perhaps Rose is also so tough to deal with because he isn’t the only threat.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Can we tone down the hate-spewing and sh*t talking?
    Or did my browser just stumble into Yahoo! Sports or YouTube?
    Next people are gonna start with the blatant racism.
    Wait, it’s already started!
    I’m the “piece of sh*t Latino”!

  • http://stapledesign.com Spaceship Jay

    Why does this dude keep talking to me?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I’m not sure why Bulls fans are certain DRose is about to win titles.
    If the rest of his teammates slum as much as some of you seem to think, that’s a mighty big hill to climb, right?
    And the Heat are only getting better, right?
    Again, I really want to know why people believe Rose is the better PLAYER but inferior POINT GUARD.
    Why is he better in your opinion? Just lay it out for me.

  • http://stapledesign.com Spaceship Jay

    Wait.. my bad, I read the thread over again. Trying to become the ‘New JTaylor’ maybe?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Because you decided to make reference to something I mentioned first, wiseguy.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Allen, you know as well as I do the Bulls are one solid piece away from being a serious threat.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Why do people think Paul is about to fall off athletically?
    Y’all do realize that he’s only been in the League three more years than Rose right? And he’s only three years older, right?
    I mean, Paul is 26, Deron Williams is 27. Rose is 23. Sure, he has room to grow, but are we actually saying we believe Deron and Paul have reached their ceilings at this point after only six years in the League?
    I guess I just don’t believe that.
    If Paul comes back right physically, which I admit is a big if, then what is his limit. This dude was being compared to Isiah Freaking Thomas at one point. That is a crazy freaking ceiling right there and as much as people love Rose, I have never seen anybody make a similar comparison for him.
    So yeah, I expect Rose to be the better player eventually, but not for like three years at least unless Deron and Paul drop off terribly, or Rose makes the type of leap that is virtually unheard of.

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Man, Slick Ric, when 90% of your posts are insults and 10% are hastily drawn, poorly worded views on basketball, you lose a bit of credence as a basketball watcher, commenter, and logical individual.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Comment won’t post, basically just gotta treat him how Talyor was his first few days, ignore him.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Enigmatic
    I agree.
    Which means they can’t slum as much as everybody says they do. Teams that are one two-guard away don’t slum.
    They are pretty damn good.
    Teams that are horrible, like saying New Orleans, need a complete roster overhaul or mindset change in the case of New Jersey or Sac Town.
    You can’t have it both ways is what I’m saying.
    If all the Bulls are crap outside of Rose, he ain’t about to win a ring. If he’s about to win a ring, then his teammates must not be that horrible.
    Right?

  • Maniac

    I’m not going to type 100+ comments today lol. I’ll just add that tomorrow when SLAM reveals KD at #3, a whole bunch of people are going to be extremely pissed for no reason.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Allen, if I can apply my answer to that question, the only way I understand have Rose as “better” then Paul is because of his aggression. He attacks a team a whole game, he doesn’t pick them apart like Paul, he attacks like a Shark. He totally and completely wears whole teams out by himself. That is the only argument for Derrick Rose over Chris Paul as a complete basketball player that I understand. I don’t agree that Rose is better, but that argument makes sense from a certain perspective. imo

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    As Fleming said, Ryan is writing #3, it’s pretty safe to assume it’s Kobe.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Exactly, Allen.
    That’s all I’ve been saying as well.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    @allenp, why are you putting words in this bulls fan mouth. I never said Rose teammates were weak, but he did have to carry a big load last season. that was only becuase of injuries(noah and boozer missed 57 games)though. Well, if we are dealing in the present and not the past, D.Rose has a bigger impact and is more agressive. You can question and argue that but then you would be bringing up the cp3 pre-injurie(s), which is not the same player.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I agree with that NBK.
    That is the main problem I had with Paul last year.
    And, based on his track record, I’m wondering if it was just physical.
    I mean, he wasn’t passive back in the day, right? So, I given that he was coming off a major knee injury, I’m thinking that if that is healed up, he’s back to killing dudes constantly.
    I could be wrong, but I’m shocked that so many cats haven’t even considered this.
    And I actually feel dirty arguing so hard for Chris Paul since I’m in the Deron Williams camp whole heartedly.
    And I think he’s better than Rose too.

  • Maniac

    I don’t think that the Bulls would have been any better with CP3 than they were without Rose. Watching 60+ Bulls games this year and all of their playoffs games, it’s obvious that the only thing they’re lacking is a 2nd scorer (Rose being their first). With that said, CP3 would not fill any holes. Rose is not the play-maker that Paul is, but neither is any other pg in the league. Rose cannot do what CP3 does for the Hornets and CP3 cannot do what Rose did for the Bulls.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    My main knock on Chris Paul is that he was too passive last year.
    But I’m not sure how much of that can be attributed to injuries so I don’t hold that against him too much.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Slick Ric
    If you read through the comments, the theme of Rose having weak teammates has been a constant today and yesterday.
    Hell, the biggest “sane” Bulls fan on here felt the need to correct the record yesterday because of it.
    So, I’m not putting words in anybody’s mouth.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Slic Rick, when Boozer and Noah went down, most of the credit for the Bulls not missing a beat has to be given to Taj Gibson, Kurth Thomas and Omer Asik.
    LOL, why is sane in quotation marks, Allen?

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Allen – no, he wasn’t this passive at all. Remember I started in the CP camp, couldn’t be shook from it, then he got hurt and Williams went nuts. Switched to Williams and constantly got in arguments with AllBall about it (he ended up being right) – after the last 2 months of last season (and those 6 games of surgery against LA) I am once again in the Paul camp. And I am also in the Rose over Williams camp until Williams proves he can shoot like he used too post these wrist injuries.

  • Maniac

    I don’t see how one can be sooooo sure that Paul and/or Deron are better. There are legit arguments. I’ll just say this. Rose can go a lot farther than either. Paul & Deron are still more skilled RIGHT NOW, but idk if that is enough to dismiss Rose’s athleticism, size, & scoring over the two. I mean isn’t that the reason why LeBron has surpassed Kobe? Kobe is no question more skilled, but LeBron’s combination of size, youth, & athleticism for his position is far away too much to ignore. Rose is better imo, but it is a legit debate.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    I dont think any bulls fan was arguing that his teammates were weak. I think most were implying that he has to create too many scoring opportunites for them, that does not make them inadequate though.

  • Big Sean

    DRose isn’t a traditional point guard. His team asks different things of him than most of the other guys. His team had the best record in the league, and he was the best player on his team and voted Most Valuable in the league. I have never heard of him complaining about wanting out of Chicago or demanding trades or any ish like that(things that ruin team chemistry). So I personally would rate him as better than Chris Paul or Deron Williams (right now, and I’m not sure for how long), although CP3 is one of my favourite players. If DRose was slightly worse than he currently is, he’d be ranked #12 and his last name would be Westbrook.

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Good call nbk. Paul is the Sun Tzu to Rose’s Genghis Kahn.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Oh no, Rose fans were definitely sh*tting on Rose’s teammates.
    That’s why I went off in the first place.
    There’s a different between saying Rose provided most of their offense and is their most important player, and saying Rose did EVERYTHING and he CARRIED them to 62 wins.
    At least in my opinion.

  • http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Video-Don-t-tell-Kobe-Bryant-what-he-can-t-do?urn=nba-233572 nbk

    Maniac your argument for Rose over Paul/Deron is almost the exact same as the “other” argument you have been in over the last few days. Except Paul (not Deron) is more efficient then Rose. Unlike the “other” conversation.

  • Maniac

    There is nothing wrong with Rose’s teammates. Everyone plays their role. The problem is that they don’t have that #2 guy to play his role. Anyone downplaying the Bulls roster is just a guy trying to hype up Rose. (Boozer sucks lol… Just had to get that out). I’m kidding about Boozer too. He got overpaid last summer and the reason is because Deron made him look better than he was in Utah. Rose hasn’t developed all his fundamental pg skills yet that CP3 & Deron have (if he ever will) so Boozer couldn’t get patched up. Don’t diss my hometown team lol.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Caboose, I like that analogy, good sh*t

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Enigmatic, I respect your opinion, but I have to disagree with that. If any thing, the credit should be spread equally because everyone played their part.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Deron Williams is the perfect meld of Rose and Paul, outside of his lack of sheer athletic ability.
    He could EASILY score 25 a game. So easily.
    He can also easily average 11-12 assists. Seriously.
    Before Utah collapsed and he got hurt, it was Deron dropping the incredible 30 and 10 games. He was doing it every week it seemed like.
    People sleep on Deron and I think it’s because he might have some attitude issues. But as far as skillset, he is the equal or superior of every other guard in the league.
    Come on, y’all are sleeping right now.

  • Maniac

    nbk I’m not talking to you biased man… And even if I were, I would tell you that Wade does not have size over Kobe, Wade’s athleticism is not a huge advantage because of his durability [especially for his POSITION (the second most athletic position, if not first)], the difference in Rose’s athleticism>CP3′s & Deron’s is far more than Wade’s (because of age/mileage)>Kobe, and Wade is not superior to Kobe in anything the way that Rose is in scoring vs. Paul & Williams. Thank you very much.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Rose is not a better scorer than Deron Williams. That is ridiculous.
    Prior to the trade, Deron was averaging 21 points on 15 shots.
    Rose averaged 25 on 19 shots.
    How does that make him a better scorer?
    Sure he’s a better driver and finisher, but Deron is an incredible shooter. I say they are equal based on last year. Now, if Rose comes back with a jumper like Deron’s, then of course he’s the better scorer. But, that’s a big leap too.
    And we know Deron is better at running a team.
    Can you imagine how Chicago would have looked with Deron instead of Rose. Oh, that’s right, you can because you say it in Utah when he had all those players and they were in the WCF. Only he had Okur and AK47 refusing to play defense and pouting for the past three years, while Rose had some horses like Deng and Noah who play hard every single night and do all the dirty work.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Co-Sign Allen on D-Will. That guy should be in the discussion for being the best PG. He has just as much of an argument as the other two.(next season, maybe 3 if J-Wall does what he should do). I think he will be back in form this year(hopefully theres a year, man i’m tired of saying this.) I expect a big season from him and I think he is going to make that Nets team some what legit.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    How is Rose a better scorer than Deron?
    Look at the numbers. Watch them play.
    Rose drives more, shoots a worse percentage. WTH!

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Slick Ric – OK, I can respect that as well. But I disagree with those (not you) who say Rose should get all the credit for keeping the Bulls winning when they were out.

    @Maniac- Actually, Boozer got overpaid last summer because Wade and Bosh had just signed in Miami, Stoudemire in NY, and LeBron was still available. T
    he Bulls couldn’t walk away empty-handed and let everything they did to get to that position of being able to sign two max contract players be for nothing.
    They gambled on Boozer being able to lure LeBron James to Chicago, and lost, knowing if they did they’d at least have that back to the basket presence they’d been craving since Eddy Curry took basketball seriously.

  • Maniac

    @Allenp – I’m not sleeping on Deron at all. Deron is easily a top 3 pg. (top 2 until this year). That statement remains that way until Westbrook increases his Bball IQ from that of a squirrel to that of a legit superstar. If and when that happens (Wall is overrated imo, but he may live up to the hype), this PG debate will get even more interesting for the next 5 or so years.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Maniac
    You said Rose is a better scorer. You provided no explanation or proof.
    That is sleeping in my book.
    There is no way to prove Rose is a better scorer, period. Check the numbers, watch the games.
    Hell look at the game splits from last year, where you will really see how many times Deron went off for 30+ AND how many times he had 10+ assists.
    That’s why I felt he was better for much of the early year. It was only late, when he got hurt and when he started pouting before that I switched sides. And that was mainly due to Paul turning Aaron Gray into a legit player.

  • Maniac

    Enigmatic don’t ignore the fact that the Bulls weren’t giving 85 mil to just anyone. He was still overpaid because he’s not worth that much regardless. If the Bulls didn’t give him the $$$, someone else was going to.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Maniac – Boozer is a proven 20 and 10 guy.
    His defense sucks, and he’s as brittle as Mr. Glass, but the Bulls were still fiendin’ for a low post scorer for YEARS.
    Add to that, like I said, the fact that management thought LeBron wouldn’t join the Bulls unless they had another star there besides Rose.
    And add to that the fact that Boozer’s contract is about $25 million less than Stoudemire’s and you can see why they were willing to pay him.

  • Maniac

    Allenp – If you can sit at your keyboard and honestly type that Deron is a better scorer then you have already lost the battle. It’s not even worth arguing because you’re more than likely going to throw some worthless stupid stats out at me and I’m going to tell you how dumb they are. Then you will ramble about other blah blah blah. The general consensus is that Rose is the best scoring PG. Period. Only argument is Westbrook. If you choose to believe that Deron is a better scorer then fine. I respect your opinion. Just don’t force it on others who have accepted that Deron or CP3 might not be as good as Rose is OR can be.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Maniac, what is it that makes you question Wall? What do you think he will struggle with? The only struggle I see for him is learning that Andre Blatche thinks he is really good, and Rashard Lewis will have more NBA salary money than he will for the next decade. I think the kid has every skill and physical attribute you could possibly want in a 2nd year PG.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I’m not biased, anyone here can tell you that, except Lakeshow, who is under the impression I am a LeBron fan. I am just being realistic, Derrick Rose’s athletic advantages over Paul and Williams are overblown if you think it is not comparable to Wade over Kobe. Kobe is 33 years old, he has gone through what 4 knee surgeries? It’s part of life too lose your athletic ability, and over the course of an 82 game season Kobe is not in Dwyane Wade’s league athletically. And Wade probably only has 2 years left of being an elite athlete in the league. Derrick Rose is much more explosive then Deron Williams and Chris Paul, but they are much more skilled then Derrick Rose. One is so skilled and good at using those skills that I see him as the better basketball player – Chris Paul. One does not apply those skills efficiently enough to make up for the sheer production of Derrick Rose. Just like Kobe’s lack of efficiency prevent him from being a better everyday basketball player then Dwyane Wade. There is no bias involved, just a measurement of on-court production and its effect on a the teams success. Which Wade has had more of an effect on for (imo) 2 years now. But 2010 is arguable, seeing as how Kobe did win a title and the Lakers sure wouldn’t have without him. Even though the Heat probably wouldn’t have won 20 games without Wade and his insane production.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Deron Williams is NICE.
    Don’t sleep on dude.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    D-Will = Rose offensively. They score completely differently. I like the way Deron scores better, but both are equally effective. Ones more efficient though.

  • Maniac

    Engimatic – $15 million less. Stat got a solid $100 mil I believe, but I could be wrong. You’re exactly right and I agree completely about him being that low post scorer and bait for LeBron (believe me, I’ve been begging for the Bulls to get a post guy for years). I was happy when we got Booz. I’m just saying that if the Bulls didn’t throw big bucks his way then another team would have. He was going to get overpaid regardless. Stat at least was worth is big payday. Yes Booz is a legit 20-10 and I might just be a little hard on him, but dude was sub-par as f*** this year.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Amar’e was worth his payday in revenue, if he doesn’t get hurt. He was never worth his salary in wins.

  • Maniac

    LakeShow – It’s not that I am doubting Wall. I acknowledged that he could possibly challenge for the best PG in the league title in the next few years. I just think he is a tad bit over-hyped. I don’t like it when young players come in with the world on their jock because then they feel like they have nothing to prove; then they don’t push themselves to get better. (Plus he dances a little bit too much to be taken seriously lmao)

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-talk/2011 Diesel

    I rank Rose above CP3 based on actual production. I agree CP3 has the ability to be a better player when he puts up numbers like he did in the playoffs, but he rarely did that during the past two regular seasons. And I don’t know if he’ll ever be able to consistently do that for an entire season again. Until he proves me wrong I’m going with Rose. That, coupled with the fact that CP3, in my opinion, has stayed at about the same level for the past 3 years, as opposed to Rose, who’s dramatically improved every year, make me feel Rose will have the upper hand in the coming years.
    As for the Bulls in general, when the entire team is healthy and clicking, they’re a contender. That wasn’t the case most of the season, with at least one or two starters out at all times. I give credit to the subs for keeping the defense at a high level. But Rose deserves all the credit for maintaining the offense. For a lot of games last year, he was one of only two players that could create his own shot. Nobody else was scoring unless Rose set them up with a pass, freed them up by drawing the double team, or drove the lane (while drawing half the team’s defenders) and creating a put-back opportunity. Not to mention willingly taking a lot of last second shots and being one of the few players on the team to not have free throw troubles. If you need evidence that Rose and his offensive contributions are indeed what carries the team, see the Heat series and what happened when he was slowed down.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-talk/2011 Diesel

    PS – Nice write up BC.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    STAT signed for $100 mil, Boozer for $76 mil.

  • Maniac

    D-Will is a beast. I’m just saying come on… Rose gets the edge in scoring. I don’t see how that’s hard to admit. It’s not by a wide margin at all. It’s just that I favor Rose when it comes to putting the ball in the bucket. Same with Westbrook.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    @allenp Deron williams is a better scorer than Rose? you said deron was averaging 21ppg on 15 but forgot to mention he was shooting .458&, that is not great and it is only about one percntage higher than what Rose shot. People mention inefficient too much when reffering to Rose’s scoring if you ask me, He is not westbrook, Last season was his worst fg%, but he improved his three and ft% dramactically.

  • Maniac

    Put it this way. Rose can be the #1 scorer on a championship contending team…. no other pg can say that.

  • http://slamonline.com Ben Osborne

    What Diesel said (esp at 5:58)

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Ok Maniac then that’s how we play it.
    Stats are not worthless. Don’t expect to see you using them every again to justify an argument.
    And eff consensus. Consensus is the “blankie” of idiots.
    Rose is a better finisher than Deron.
    His one-on-one moves are not superior despite the gap in athleticism because Deron is one of the best breakdown defenders in the league.
    His jumper is not better than Deron’s by any stretch of the imagination.
    There is no measurable way to say he’s better besides your opinion. An opinion I’m going to assume is based on the fact that you’re impressed with cool layups and dunks since you haven’t provided any other proof.
    Rose’s role on this team was to score a lot of points. Deron’s was to play point guard and score a lot of points.
    Different roles, despite the difference, Deron was only averaging four fewer points than Deron and putting up better scoring numbers, while taking four fewer shots.
    Shots per point is an important stat when discussing scorers. Efficiency is a key element to assessing any scorer.
    But, you go ahead and ignore “stupid stat.” I’ve never been a stat guy, but I’ve never ignored them either because I know I don’t watch nearly enough basketball to simply go by my gut.

  • Maniac

    OK my bad Enigmatic. I see it now. Yeah it’s 76.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I’m with you Diesel that Rose will be better then Paul soon. I just don’t think it’ll be this year, or if it is, it will be at the very end, during the playoffs when he makes the jump.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Allen, he lives in Chicago. Kobe is his favorite player. he has been in the same argument on the opposite side for each player in 2 days. It’s pretty clear, the difference is biased opinion.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    To be fair, Rose wasn’t the only one struggling against the Heat that series.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    If Kobe Bryant is better then Dwyane Wade, a healthy Deron Williams is better then Derrick Rose. That’s how simple it is as I see it.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And I said Deron Williams was Rose’s equal as a scorer.
    Not better, EQUAL.
    And you all have said he’s better based on either straight opinion.
    Slick Ric, I brought up the shot attempts because if he put up 21 on 15 shots at 46 percent shooting, then what do you think he would put up with four more shots per game?
    Probably right about 25, right?
    Exactly. That’s the point. More shots tends to equal more points if you have two equally skilled scorers.

  • Maniac

    @Allenp – I said stats are worthless when you don’t use them in context. You guys DON’T. Next, I can’t recall EVER using a stat in these past 3 days to prove a point, but I may be wrong. If I did, I used it in context. STOP TALKING ABOUT FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE!!!!!!!!!!! Do you people take into consideration what kinds of shots these guys are shooting? The fact that Rose is forced to shoot crazy shots because of his team’s offensive limits? That’s context. You seem like a stat guy.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    You can’t penalize Chris Paul for his performance last year, but then ignore what Deron Williams did before the wrist injuries, or what Wade did compared to Kobe.
    Derrick Rose was fully healthy, Chris Paul was not for most of the year.
    Why would we expect that issue to continue when Paul clearly improved as the season went on, to the point where he was shedding his bulky knee brace and looking pretty damn frisky in the playoffs?
    I mean, this is based on expectations, right?
    I could see knocking Paul for being passive if you think that’s a character trait. I would disagree, but I can see. I can’t see it because you think Paul fell off or was at his apex prior to the injury.
    Hell, even if he was at his apex, his apex was 23 and 11 on 50 percent shooting with 3 steals!
    In order for Derrick Rose to approach that he would have to take an amazing leap. It’s not impossible, but it would still be incredible.
    Am I tripping on this?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    You write off shooting %? Of all the stats in the world not to care about, shooting %? Explain how 1 or 2 shots a game at the end of the shot-clock can account for shooting 44% from the field for a guy who shoots 19 shots a game? Nobody forces anyone to shoot bad shots, that is a choice.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    So you think Deron Williams is taking easy shots in Utah?
    Did you watch Utah play?
    Who was their second best scorer? Paul Millsap? AK47?
    Can either of those guys create a bucket in the halfcourt? Hell no.
    They are even more dependent on their point guard to create buckets for them, or just score than Boozer is on Rose to be honest.
    Deron Williams wasn’t getting easy shots. What is that based on?
    Who was taking attention away from him?
    He was hitting tough shots just like Rose. He didn’t have the same gaudy scoring numbers, and yes Rose’s numbers were gaudy at times to be sure, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t killing as well.
    And miss me with the comments on context. I used every stat I used in context. I just gave Slick Ric the contact for the shots per attempt numbers to let you know why I used that stat.
    Deron Williams was BY FAR the best scorer on Utah’s team. BY FAR. It wasn’t even close. So, what’s the big difference?
    Chicago doesn’t run Utah’s offense for two reasons.
    1. Thibodeau doesn’t know it.
    2. Derrick Rose would struggle learning how to run it.
    That’s it.

  • Maniac

    @nbk You obviously don’t play basketball at all. You don’t watch and understand what is going on either. You can’t with the s*** that you bring to the table. Until you are done with the stat whoring, STOP RESPONDING TO MY COMMENTS.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Maniac says that Rose is the only PG that can be the #1 scorer on a championship contending team like it’s a good thing. The bulls may win a chip with Rose as their leading scorer but not with him scoring 25+ ppg. The last team to win a chip with a PG scoring above 20ppg was the 86/87 Lakers with Magic around 24ppg. So unless Rose avg. 10+ apg (Magic avg. 12.6apg during that season) the Bulls might break the 26yr drought by winning a chip with Rose avg. 20+ ppg but I doubt it. *sorry Enigmatic*

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Chicago runs a variation of Utah’s offense Allen. Much less complex variation of the same flex. It’s basically an “isolation flex” rather then I guess it’s called a “high-low flex” that they ran in Utah. But Utah used Deron Williams in the low post or the threat of it atleast as a part of their offense. And they let Williams play off the ball. I don’t know if you would apply that to Williams advanced IQ and Skillset & Lack there-of for Rose. Or if that’s a coaching philosophy/knowledge thing.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Thank you for that information NBK, I did not know that since the offense typically looks like “Let Derrick do whatever the hell he wants.”
    I’m about to head home from work. This discussion had denigrated into “If you dont’ think Derrick Rose is a better scorer than Deron Williams because I say so then you’re an idiot.”
    I’m cool on discussing that.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Maniac, nbk will leave no one alone. Even if you ask politely he will still engage with you on a daily basis. So it’s kind of a choice you have to make. Comment on Slam and be annoyed by nbk, or don’t comment on Slam. I hope you choose to put up with him like I….. kinda do.

  • Maniac

    @Allenp – More absurd statements. Do you reread what you type before you hit the submit button? Do you really? Do you pay attention to what I say? WHY THE F*** would it matter if Rose could learn the system or if Thibs knew it. The Bulls have their own system. Next, I never said Deron wasn’t forced to take bad shots. THAT’S WHY I SAID I IGNORE THOSE STUPID NUMBERS THAT YOU CONSISTENTLY THROW OUT. UNLESS THEY ARE IN CONTEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WATCH THE GAMES AND THEN ANALYZE…. WATCH THE GAMES AND THEN ANALYZE… WHAT THE GAMES AND THEN ANALYZE. Maybe if I said it more than once, you would understand.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Maniac your an ignorant child. First of all I have been playing basketball since you were in your moms stomach, and second stop stating your opinion without backing it up with any reasoning. Or say things that are right. This is a comment section. I can respond to you every time you press submit, just to make you smile if I want to, but i’ll just keep doing what I have been doing, and making sure that reasoning and facts that make sense follow what you say, so nobody else gets the wrong idea about anything.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Maniac, you should at least try to consider that you might be wrong from time to time about certain things.
    Or at least that those that don’t agree with your may not be stupid or know nothing about basketball.
    Again, I think that’s where the age thing might come into play.

  • Maniac

    @LakeShow – Yes I see. I swear I’m never responding to anything he says ever again. He makes you want to stop coming on the SLAM site. Damn…

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I gotchu Allen, that’s the type of stuff that should be discussed here. Why certain things make certain players better then others. Not, “i watch a ton of basketball and (insert favorite players name here) is the best in the league because he does so much and so good at this, I saw it with my eyes but don’t have anything to back it up, your an idiot” – Because really, what is someone’s unreasoned opinion in the grand scheme of things (on a basketball website where none of this genuinely has an effect on the real scheme of things-hopefully)?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    If you want to state your opinion without reasoning go to Dime. You’ll get plenty of “this is this and your an idiot because you don’t agree with me” over there. Rather then a whole bunch of reasoning from those that comment here. You can see that I don’t say anything to people who post their comments with reasoning and don’t assert themselves as facts. Like you and Lakeshow had a conversation about John Wall on this page and I didn’t say a thing. “gasp”

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-talk/2011 Diesel

    @Enigmatic – the only other player that I think consistently struggled was Boozer, which he had been doing the entire playoffs and Rose’s play managed to cover for his lack of offensive output the entire way. It wasn’t until he started slowing down in the Heat series, that the team actually suffered.
    @Allen – I don’t see the playoffs as CP3 clearly being healthier, I see it as him knowing “I only need to maintain this pace for a certain amount of games so I can go all out”. The playoffs don’t have me convinced that he can maintain that play for 82 games. Heck, he even started slowing down at the end of that series only scoring 10 points his final game. That’s not a good sign.
    As for Rose needing to make an incredible leap to be on the same level as CP3 – he averaged 27 and 8 on 45% shooting, I don’t think it would take that incredible of a leap to increase by 3 assists and 2% point on his field goal %.

  • Maniac

    Enigmatic – It has nothing to do with my age at all so don’t go there. I’ve been on here for 3 days and have already proven to know more about basketball than 90% of the people who comment here. Better yet, more mature than half of the “adults” that post on here. I do consider everything that is proposed to me. Stop trying to make it seem like I just shut everything down that someone says. I have opinions too. Very valid ones. I don’t see you telling them that maybe they might be wrong too. It’s not fair that everyone can jump on me, but as soon as I backlash, I’m the bad guy. It’s not cool man.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Nah, but for real.
    Brian Scalabrine is the best player in the NBA.
    You’re all just haters.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Yup no reasoning and maturity, that’s what this is “Maniac Posted: Oct.25 at 6:25 pm
    @Allenp – More absurd statements. Do you reread what you type before you hit the submit button? Do you really? Do you pay attention to what I say? WHY THE F*** would it matter if Rose could learn the system or if Thibs knew it. The Bulls have their own system. Next, I never said Deron wasn’t forced to take bad shots. THAT’S WHY I SAID I IGNORE THOSE STUPID NUMBERS THAT YOU CONSISTENTLY THROW OUT. UNLESS THEY ARE IN CONTEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WATCH THE GAMES AND THEN ANALYZE…. WATCH THE GAMES AND THEN ANALYZE… WHAT THE GAMES AND THEN ANALYZE. Maybe if I said it more than once, you would understand”

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Ya, like I said though, you can still have fun and do your thing on the site, BUT you will have to deal with the big bad nbk ;)

    Your points even if some misguided have legit arguments to be made for them. Just do your best to slow down and not get caught up in the Slam web of 5 people talking to you like your a baby, and not knowing why your struggling to write a competent message back to all 5 of them with out getting frustrated at some point. So just take your time and address one person at a time. I like to start with the people I can tolerate the most.

    In regards to your comment on J-Wall being overrated. I have a problem with that phrase itself. (Overrated: To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly.) IMO he is rated just fine. Most people say he is outside the top 30 basketball players today. To which I agree, but I would also side with those who think by the end of the season he will be inside the top 30 and likely much closer to top 20. He is going to put up the stats and might even make the team win a little more, but the team is garbage. I think he has a legit chance of being the 5th with a chance of 4th best PG by the end of next year.

    Co-Sign Enig on White Mamba. He’s ready to strike this season! Going for that scoring title. Go Scal, go Scal, GO!

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    @Diesel – Boozer, without a doubt.
    Noah was also pretty bad in that series.
    Gibson was nonexistant in the last two games.
    Korver could barely hit a three after game 1.
    Asik was mostly nonexistent after game 1.
    Really, only one who didnt’t struggle in that series was Deng.
    @Maniac – nobody’s trying to “jump on you” (pause).

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    What you are is, arrogant and immature. That is pretty much a fact at this point. Oh and I’m immature too, if I wasn’t I would be pointing this out. But I’m aware of that.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    wouldn’t*

  • http://www.slamonline.com Dagger

    Maniac: “I’ve been on here for 3 days and have already proven to know more about basketball than 90% of the people who comment here. Better yet, more mature than half of the “adults” that post on here.” That sort of hubris is a telltale sign of immaturity.

  • Maniac

    @LakeShow Yeah thanks for the advice. They do get me all frustrated and idk what I let people like “him” get to me. As far as Wall, maybe I used the wrong word. By overrated, i did not mean that he was not a top 30 player or wherever people may rate him. By the claim, I meant that some (a lot of ESPN guys) were ready to say he was going to surpass Rose, and etc… As you can see, I’m not a big fan of prematurely giving young guys the crown. I acknowledged his talents. No doubt the guy has the materials to be the real deal. I’m not going to go as far as saying he would be the 4th pg by the end of the year because the sky is the limit for Rose & Westbrook. Then CP3 & Deron aren’t budging, but we can agree on 5th if his game keeps soaring. Yeah the Wizards are straight garbage lol, but McGee & Blatche have potential. I like Nick Young too.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    You guys can’t give Maniac sh*t for being young and for being immature. One or the other now common! haha, they go hand and hand. We all need to be a little more mature. Some more than others.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    This is pretty funny though, did nobody see Lakeshows explosion at Eboy, lol? And now the mature brothers who overlook “him” (me lol) are giving each other advice. It’s like christmas

  • Maniac

    @Dagger – I didn’t mean it the way you probably took it. They keep questioning my reasoning and logic (and maturity) because I’m 20 years old so I made that radical statement. I find that as blatant disrespect. I’m far from being “professional mature” (if you will) lol, but I’m not a stubborn brat. Don’t take that statement for face value.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    LakeShow, I hope you know that personally, I just like picking on you cause I love your overblown reactions to it, but I don’t have anything against you.
    I don’t have anything against 99.9% of people here.
    It’s SLAM Online.
    Not…you know…life.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    I think Blatch no longer has “potential” because he is like 28 lol. But ya he is a okay player. McGee is the one guy they need to give a contract on that team. I don’t care if he is raw as f*ck. You gotta admire his passion and his never ending energy and his length. Dudes gotta have at least a 7’8″ wingspan. I like Nick young because I like guys with flair, but he is not a player you can count on for anything. You have to have him as a 6th man imo. Wall, like you said said has the sky as his limit. I do see him giving the top PG’s trouble in 2 years without a doubt. I would be legitimately surprised if he isn;t in top PG debate in 2 years. Time will tell.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Haha, I know you guys like it. That’s partially why i’m so willing to go down ape sh*t road so quick lol. I wouldn’t get back on this site every day if I didn’t like the dudes on here at all. We all love BBALL that’s why we go down immature ways, and overly passionate essays to each other lol. NBK, you know it only happens if someone provokes me. I never go crazy with out someone feeding me crazy pills.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Of course people are going to question your reasoning and logic when you’ve shown an inability to reason logically, Maniac, lol

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    I will say this nbk. I’m here now trying to get everyone to calm down and to collectively be better. You on the other hand are still trying to find ways to annoy people and start trouble… I am immature and admit it, but I want to be better. You….. Not so sure about.(pretty sure)

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Oh yeah, your “calming people down” by talking sh*t like I can’t read your words? lol I don’t take offense to it, but if your gonna talk about me like I’m not here, I’m going to directly call you out. on the site, or conversing with Maniac while he is saying he is smarter then “90% of the people here, and more mature” and not letting him know that was the most unintelligent, immature, arrogant thing he could have possibly said. I know you know that. If you gonna try and set some of us straight, don’t blatantly let others do sh*t that is even worse. All I do is question your opinion, I am not questioning your intelligence. Like that child just did or tried to do to 90% of the people that comment here.

  • Maniac

    @Enigmatic – I have no idea how I haven’t showed my “ability to reason logically” lol, but OK. I guess being captain of a debate team doesn’t require me to reasonable… You know, since that has nothing to do with reasoning logically. I’m just some 20 year old arrogant, immature, know-it-all-who-really-knows-nothing lol. Now life makes so much more since to me. I’m going to stop commenting here soon and just continue to support SLAM in others way since I’m clearly not accepted here lol and my opinions are over the top with no logic. My name fits me perfect. MY LIFE SUCKS! lmao :(

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Who the “smarter or as intelligent 10%” are is something I’ll wonder until I’m done typing this comment.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Is this a reenactment of the Dr. Phil show?

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Have a good night nbk, talk to you tomorrow big guy.

    Maniac, you’ve let the bad guys win if you stop commenting lol.

  • Maniac

    @LakeShow Yeah Blatche is getting older, but he can still be effective with the proper pg. McGee has time to add some offensive skills to his game. If not, he’ll end up like a bonafide Tyson Chandler Jr. lol. I agree the Wizards need to pay dude. I see what you’re saying about Nick. Why can’t he be a starting 2 though? Not for a championship team, but at least until the Wizards start filling in the many holes that they have. They won’t be contenders anytime soon lol. If Wall turns out to be the player that he is projected to be, Nick can benefit from him. We have the same opinion on Wall; I just don’t want the hype to get to his head and he underachieves.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    you too buddy. havin SuperSonic dreams. (sorry dog, after today I had too) – And JT, it was, but I think I’m done as well, I got to go hoop, havin withdrawals

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Maniac, you’re a trip. I like you cause from our minimal convos you remind me of my baby bro. lol
    Bull22 and SEED are probably in that 10%, Soop.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    LOL! So nice I had to say it thrice!
    _______________________________________________________________________
    “If I wanted to make fun of you for losing your franchise I’d tell you to run along and go watch SonicsGate with your Sonics Payton jersey and Slick Watts headband while clutching a stuffed Squatch with one hand and throwing darts at a picture of Clay Bennett with the other…again.
    All while wearing a Lakers Payton jersey under that Sonics Payton jersey, of course”

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Matic (ftw) – haha, and now I’m out

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    maniac you and lakeshow struggle on here bc you say tupid things and then whine when people call you on it… I’ve been coming to this website for yearss…and instead of just commenting whatever stupid thing was going through my head I waited read, and improved my knowledge. people have a lot to teach you, if you let them. if not… also it is NOT good that you, lakeshow, and slick rick agree on so much… just fyi

    and yeah nbk i saw that.. eboy kinda went hard on lakeshow. I felt bad, lmao

  • Maniac

    And it’s funny. Though I may not have meant it, I clearly said that I know more about basketball than 90%. I did not insult anyone’s intelligence. If anything, one would know that intelligence is independent of knowledge in any given subject. Yeah, but that wouldn’t get across to the masses who put words in my mouth. For instance, Bill Simmons is HIGHLY knowledgeable when it comes to basketball, but that doesn’t mean I would consider him as smarter or more intelligent (they are different things) than the next guy. SMH

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    *stupid

  • Maniac

    And then there was @datkid … I’m not even going to entertain you.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    lmaoooo lakeshow @ 7:21

  • Maniac

    Lmao @ Enigmatic. Thanks.

  • One
  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    do you think I care? like do you really really think I care that you “won’t entertain me” little guy? lmao

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    BTW, datkid, BlackPhantom, Moose and a few others prove that you can be young and a good SLAM Online commenter (whatever your interpretation of “good” is), so I’m not just knocking young age.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    And datkid, ever since we started following each other on Twitter, I’ve had maaaaad #teamfollowback robots following me.
    Thanks a lot homie. SMH lol

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    no but maniac… no slander or anything but just relax. seriously. just because someone doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean you have to curse them out

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    lol my bad Enig

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Maniac, you are really starting to bother me. You completely ignore statistics, even unbiased ones like simple field goal percentage. Yet you use wins quite a bit. That’s still a stat. Thus, the only argumentative basis you have comes from your personal, subjective observations. If that’s all you use, and try to shoot others’ points down, it implies that your observation is superior to theirs. Yet you said two days ago that you don’t find yourself arrogant at all. Find some better argumentative foundation other than just your own eyes because they’re not better than all of ours. Present me with an argument better than “Because I said so” and I’ll actually take you as a serious commenter on this site. Until then, you’re just someone who blocks out everything that doesn’t agree with his unfounded beliefs and views.

  • Travis

    I knew that before I jump on this website.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    cosign caboose…. Comment of the week^^

  • Maniac

    Please don’t compare me to datdumbass. Otherwise, Bryan Crawford came out of nowhere yesterday and called me and I quote, “far and away one of the better commenters on here”. That is not getting to my head at all and idk what anyone’s interpretation of “good” commenter is either, but age should have nothing to do with what I said. Correct me if I’m wrong, but before I told you guys I was 20, you, Z, & others thought I was far older. That means something. I could have easily lied about my age and this wouldn’t even be a discussion today.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Enig, I don’t wanna make Datkid feel bad, but how is he a good young commenter? I have never seen him add anything to a convo. He just co-signs anything that is pro-LeBron and says your “stupid” and to “shut up” if you have something not so positive to say about Bron. I don;t have anything against the kid, but he has yet to actually “add” anything of merit to a convo. Black Phanties(love ya dood) and Moose are pretty good though per age.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    datdumbass huh? this is hilarious coming from mr. “kobe-is-anchor-of-the lakers-defense” say something we won’t all laugh at you for and then call me that, ok little buddy?

  • Maniac

    Caboose, I do not ignore stats. I keep telling you guys that. Read please. I said I ignore stats when people present them without context. Very little people on here use stats and conclude intelligent arguments from them. Before all these stat whores pushed these formulas, the world did a great job of knowing who the better players were and whatever and why. I don’t use wins at all. Where are you getting this from? I clearly labeled that as a team accomplishment long ago. Wins is not a direct correlation to how great a player is. I don’t see SLAM using all these advanced statistics and you guys don’t get on them about it. WHEN HAVE I EVER SAID “because I said so”? I just love it when you guys put words in my mouth. That entire message to me was full of misguided finger pointing. I can careless if you take me seriously or not because frankly, others do. I respect all opinions and I shoot no one down. Where is this coming from? I didn’t come to SLAM for self-proclaimed psychiatrists to try and diagnose me with Can’t-Get’Along-With-Others.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    here’s a million dollar question lakeshow…have you ever added anything positive to a conversation? ever? cool.

  • Maniac

    @LakeShow – The problem here is that I’m an intimidating person (I know it because I’ve been in my skin for 20 years lol); not intimidating like I scare someone. Maybe a better word is “provoking”. I came out of nowhere recently and caught a lot off guard. That’s all it is and now some of these guys are iffy about me personally (they may not show it or admit it) and don’t know how to react. This has nothing to do with age because like I said, no one suspected (or at least called me out) that I was this young. I could have easily told you guys I was 25+ or 30 and that would have been it.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    for the record tho… I was saying that chris paul and d.will were more efficient and therefore better scorers than derrick rose all of last year. all they literally have to do to score more than rose is shoot more. In fact rose is better than them at almost nothing…besides being more athletic. Also neither one is as unathletic as everyone seems to think they are. chris paul is actually very very fast, not derrick rose fast but there’s speed there. I’ve also seen d.will throw down a couple of monster dunks occasionally.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    datkid, your probably a pretty cool dude, just calling it as I see it on this site. You might not find what I have to say positive, but others do. You keep doing you though man, I ain’t tryna hate. You gunna wire me that Mill?

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    and this is coming from someone who believes completely in rose’s potential and his ability. ever since I saw him take on the celtics in 09 and break a record i knew dude would be special… but realistically he’s not a better shooter(from anywhere), passer, defender, rebounder, and his basketball iq is far lower than that of nash, cp3 or d.will

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    lol ok cool lakeshow.. and nah I’m keeping that LMAO

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Bryan Crawford is my dude.
    We’ve chopped it up here, on Twitter, we’ve emailed each other back and forth, he’s been a mentor of sorts to me, all that good stuff.
    Hell, he’s the only follower I have on my blog!
    So believe me when I tell you I have MAD respect for dude (what up, BC?!) but that is just one man’s opinion on your commenting.
    My opinion is you could definitely be “far and away one of the better commenters on here” if you just eased up on the name-calling and the always thinking you’re right and we’re all wrong.
    My bad, I shouldn’t say “always”, you’ve conceded some points, I should say “vast majority of the time”.
    Guys like AllenP, JTaylor and nbk have been on here for a minute and know their stuff, it would do you some good to at least hear them out and not just blindly dismiss everything they dish out.
    You’ve been cool with me, actually.
    I more take offense to how you’ve corresponded with those other cats than how you have with me.
    But they’re big boys and can take care of themselves so I’ll leave it alone, I guess.

  • Maniac

    I’m not using datkid as an example at all, but…
    “I was saying that chris paul and d.will were more efficient and therefore better scorers than derrick rose all of last year. all they literally have to do to score more than rose is shoot more.”

    That’s bad analysis that stems from stats. Just because they are more efficient does not mean they are better scorers. Efficiency is flawed because like I said, Rose takes a lot of shots that Paul & Deron don’t because of his situation in Chicago. Plus, he’s more willing to take the shots. Stats don’t show that. So just because Magic was more “efficient” than Kobe, West, & Baylor as a Lakers, he a better scorer? No. And just saying they have to shoot more is making them what they are not. They are not shoot first pgs.

  • Maniac

    @Enigmatic – I don’t dismiss them. Why haven’t you called them out about “dismissing me”? I listen to everything. Just because I don’t agree doesn’t mean I don’t consider what is said.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    yeah but maniac, chris paul and d.will are better at getting more efficient shots as well. I also said they’re better scorers because they shoot better from literally EVERYWHERE ON THE FLOOR, but you just casually decided to ignore that.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    ^Good points Maniac. I will still remain on the fence as to which PG is “better” scorer. I like D-Will’s style a little more because it appears to have more brain less brawn(Bron) lol. D-Will is a better 3Point shooter than CP3 and Rose by far. His midrange is equal or better than the other two. His finishing at the rim is slightly below D-Rose, but who isn’t?(who is not named Bron) I think you may have to concede that the better scorer in between the two is a toss up. But feel free not to concede lol.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    also his “situation in chicago” you say that like his teammates are worse than the ones chris paul, and d.will now have. we’ve already discussed that this isn’t necessarily true. but if you mean that his teammates are basically JUST defensive players I would agree with that.

  • Maniac

    This is your full comment…..
    “for the record tho… I was saying that chris paul and d.will were more efficient and therefore better scorers than derrick rose all of last year. all they literally have to do to score more than rose is shoot more. In fact rose is better than them at almost nothing…besides being more athletic. Also neither one is as unathletic as everyone seems to think they are. chris paul is actually very very fast, not derrick rose fast but there’s speed there. I’ve also seen d.will throw down a couple of monster dunks occasionally. ”
    Where exactly did you state, “they’re better scorers because they shoot better from literally EVERYWHERE ON THE FLOOR”, because I don’t see it. You can’t “casually decide to ignore something” if you can’t see it.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Bryan Crawford Posted: Oct.25 at 3:37 pm
    I’m just glad the comments on this one didn’t eclipse 500+.

    ____________________________
    ^ SPOKE TOO SOON!
    It’ll get there soon. Unfortunately, most of it was some Oprah-ish bullsh*t so umm…
    Derrick Rose is that dude!

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    also you clearly are using me as an example lmao… but whatever

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    my bad, I said it in the comment just before that. regardless it was said.

    and this is coming from someone who believes completely in rose’s potential and his ability. ever since I saw him take on the celtics in 09 and break a record i knew dude would be special… but realistically he’s not a better shooter(from anywhere), passer, defender, rebounder, and his basketball iq is far lower than that of nash, cp3 or d.will

  • Maniac

    Chris Paul and Deron Williams also shoot better than Wade from, “EVERYWHERE ON THE FLOOR”, so they are better scorers than him too? And how are you better at getting more efficient shots? That doesn’t make sense to me. Does it mean: A. They’re creativity is better than Rose’s so they can create shots for themselves better? That would be a contradiction because Kobe is arguably the most creative player with the ball in his hands and he’s “inefficient”. Or did you mean: B. They are better at getting higher percentage shots? That would be a contradiction as well because “high percentage shots” are shots closer to the rim. Correct me if I’m wrong, but no pg gets to the rim better than Rose (Westbrook is arguable). I may be assessing your claims incorrectly so help me out here.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    I said it in the comment before that one

    and this is coming from someone who believes completely in rose’s potential and his ability. ever since I saw him take on the celtics in 09 and break a record i knew dude would be special… but realistically he’s not a better shooter(from anywhere), passer, defender, rebounder, and his basketball iq is far lower than that of nash, cp3 or d.will

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    I am late to the party, as I was working and then out dining with a lovely young woman, see that is what mature people do instead of spending all evening calling each other names and doing ‘gurgling’ sounds (just joking so don’t take offense, I love this place just as much as the next cat, just seriously lacking time to comment these days) . I see the topic still seems to be mostly about Maniac and maturity. Allenp was fishing for what could have been an interesting discussion about why people rank Rose, Paul and Deron the way they do, but since it seems that he left I’m going to leave that. To give my two-cents on Rose. I don’t agree on the ranking of Rose, find it a bit too high. But as he had a great season, was a well-deserved MVP, is among the best PG’s in the L and has room for improvement + a work ethic, I am not going to argue this too much (also considering the annoying ‘projected performance’ ranking criteria). Ohh and by the way my old foe BC, actually wrote a real nice article. Good job.

  • Maniac

    Oh sorry I didn’t know you were talking about that comment. OK, now I see.

  • Jason

    Did everyone forget what the criteria for their rankings are? They’re not ranking by career overall, and not even last years play. They’re ranking by NEXT YEAR’S EXPECTED CONTRIBUTIONS. Now if you look at the rankings like this, it makes total sense. Drose being above Wade makes total sense. Last year was Rose’s breakout year, we can only expect even more from him next season. Otherwise, kobe in the top 3 does not make sense. I don’t think he’ll being contributing as much as he used to but really, who knows.

  • clayton

    hype over talent is clearly the criteria for these rankings.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Yup.
    Derrick Rose is ALL HYPE.
    No talent.
    SMFH….

  • http://bulls.com airs

    as far as rose being the better overall player and not the better PG goes: the definition or label of point guard automatically pigeonholes rose as having to be able to do the same things traditional point guards do, which you see paul, rondo, and deron doing.
    but how many point guards in the history of the NBA do you know go and boom on cats regularly?
    he’s not the “traditional” point guard, however you want to define that.
    he’s a freakishly athletic anomaly at the point thats able to dominate games, i don’t really see how he can’t be considered a top 5 player.

  • http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls Diesel

    Matic you have a blog? Throw the details out there. And I’d never thought I’d see the day JTaylor was mentioned as a commenter that “knows his stuff”. I’m not trying to add to the e-beefs going on, just playing with you jtaylor.

  • Maniac

    @airs – I agree. Rose is not a “traditional” pg and neither was Magic. A pg is a pg. I call him a sg in a pg’s body sometimes because of his shoot first mentality, but no doubt that he does everything that a pg is supposed to do.

  • Maniac

    LMAO @ Engimatic. Yeah this MVP season was a fluke. Next year he’ll be lucky to keep all the shine away from white mamba. And this Derrick Rose person has the nerve to make it to the ECF and be ranked #4 on SLAM??? Who the f*** does he think he is? A talent? *gasp*

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    yeah a couple things maniac… first wade is not a point guard (although he can run the point) and I meant better scorer among point guards. I’ll find a stat to support that at some point. also Kobe is inefficient because he takes shots he doesn’t need to take… not because he’s not creative. He often takes shots that are just unnecessarily hard (those 2 30 ft shots against miami last year for example). I actually don’t know why you brought that up. and for the record.. I meant both and A and B. and that they can pick their spots better (they can get whatever shot they want.. whenever they want). rose can just blow past you with pure quickness. However if cp3 and d.will can get by you with a DISGUSTING crossover. Rose is however better at finishing at the rim.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    i meant to delete that sentence about finding a stat to support that lol… but whatever.

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Ha Maniac, I’ve never once seen you accept a stat that has been presented to you unless you brought it up. Nbk, Enig, and Allen have all given you stats that you shrug off. And your arguments all boil down to your observations. Nothing ever more than that. That’s essentially saying “because I said so” because your argument only has your opinion. And “self proclaimed psychiatrist”, that’s funny since I am a premed student for psychiatry. And stop bringing up age, nobody cares about it.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    and for the record… d.wade is a better scorer because he averages more points with a better field goal percentage than cp3 and d.will. and d.rose. also he get’s to the line more, and finishes with contact just as well as rose.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    whoa enig… i never said d.rose was all hype. I just said he wasn’t as good as cp3 and d.will at a bunch of things. you know I love rose.

  • Maniac

    A scorer is a scorer regardless of their position. It still doesn’t make sense that because it applies to those three, but not Wade. I do agree with you 100% that Kobe does take some ridiculously stupid shots at times, but he also takes shot that could hurt his % that other players don’t because they’re either afraid of the outcome or want to protect their stats. I think you’re underestimating Rose’s craftiness of getting his own shot. It is just not just pure speed and quickness. (His ball-handling skills are on par with CP3′s and D-Will’s).

  • Maniac

    He wasn’t talking about you datkid lol. He was talking about clayton.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Airs; let me explain why I don’t see Rose as top 5 (my ranking is based on ‘best player right here right now’ as I find this ‘projected performance’ ridiculous and don’t think it is even close to being followed, it is obvious that the voters have also cast their votes considering the ‘best player ‘, ‘career achievements’ as well as ‘projected performance’ at least that is my opinion. The five players better than Rose ‘right now right here’ in no particular order; 1. Dirk, just like Rose he has the flaw that he is average on D, however he is a better scorer and even more unstoppable than Rose on O, is a better leader, is more clutch (not talking any ‘clutch gene’, but yes clutch matter), is more efficient and just handed it two Miami and their big 3 (really 2) a thing that Rose didn’t even come close to even though his team was being held to higher esteem than the Mavs going into the playoffs. Really for all respect there is rightfully given to Rose, there should be given the same and more to Dirk as he did all the same things and more this playoffs than Rose is being lauded for (and have more or less the same shortcomings). 2. Lebron, he is simply a bigger and better and more seasoned version of Rose, I am not going to get deep on this one as it was obvious who was the better player among the two when James locked up Rose while closing out Chi. 3. Wade, in my book the pound for pound best two-way player in the L (James lacks the balls when it matter, again this matter). Rose is more or less there with Wade on O, but again Wade is a bigger, stronger and more seasoned version, he is also more crafty and plays D that Rose can only dream about (until now). 4. Dwight, although the C spot is weak, Dwight is still maybe the most dominant player in the L, the best defender and rebounder and still scores at a high enough clip and with so good efficiency that he has to be ranked as having a bigger impact overall than Rose. 5. Durant/CP3/Rose/Kobe – actually I will not be making the case, because after giving it some thought I find Rose on the same level as these three others and it becomes a matter of preference (mine would be CP3 and Durant over Rose, Kobe below, but I can respect anybody arguing Rose should be over Durant and CP3 maybe not so much Koldbe). So actually I think Rose should be ranked somewhere between 5-7 and thus 4 is a bit, just a bit too high in my opinion.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    look maniac, my man.. to me it’s pretty simple better or similar field goal percentage + more shots = better scorer. PLUS wade get’s to the rim, get’s to the line, and finishes with contact better than all 3 of those guys. Maybe I’m wrong but that’s how I think of it.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    oh ok thanks maniac…. but i guess if you want to be technical if cp3 or d.will simply abandoned or reduced their playmaking duties and JUST tried to score they could score as much if not more than wade. i mean maybe.

  • One

    Can I please post?

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Wade is a better scorer than Rose no doubt about it. They scored at roughly the same clip and Wade has James (and Bosh) next to him to divide the shots with. Wade has led the league in scoring, somthing that Rose has never done and will probably never do with Durant around. Wade is also much more efficient than Wade, shoots higher percentages, and finishes (which is Rose’s bread and butter) better at the rim than Rose. Who is the better scorer among Wade and Rose should not be up for debate at all. When it comes to scoring there is not a single thing (except maybe for the floater and FT percentage – I am too lazy to check their %) that Rose does better than Wade.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Moose

    I’m way too late to this thread…

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Moose

    And thanks for the plug, Enigmatic. I think a good SLAM commenter is one with a good knowledge of the game and is respectful, huh?

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Moose

    And Lakeshow, I vote to add “good per age” as a state comparable to “pound for pound”.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    Lz i cosign everything you just said… that’s not quite what we were talking about tho. What we were sort of getting into, and i find this intriguing is cp3/d.will vs wade scoring wise. I think theoretically if they concerned themselves only with scoring that they could average just as much ppg with just as good of a field goal percentage as he does, MAYBE. thoughts?

  • Maniac

    Yeah and I agree on the Wade thing. Enough said.

  • http://bulls.com airs

    i got you, Lz. but here’s my beef.
    the same thing people are criticizing rose fans for doing, ppl are doing for dirk.
    supposedly a lot of rose’s ranking has to do with the fact that he won the MVP award last year, which is fine. it probably is the case for many of the votes.
    but why all of a sudden is dirk getting so much love? and im definitely not saying that it isn’t warranted, cuz it is, the man is unstoppable.
    but who was asking “where the hell is dirk?!” when the top 5 rolled around the past few seasons.
    maybe ppl were, but i don’t remember it. its like the fact that he won a championship automatically catapults him into having a better projected season, which honestly im still not sure i see happening.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    btw moose.. nice blog

  • Maniac

    Well that’s enough for me today. I’m out. We’ll see all the crazy stuff that happens tomorrow when SLAM announces Durant at #3…

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Moose

    Thanks datkid. Really kind of a shame that we all stopped posting…

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Ok, wrap up time:
    -If I looked at this ranking independent of the rest of the list, I wouldn’t be too upset. But, seeing Rose above Wade and Dwight, that’s iffy.
    -Kobe is way too high. We all know it. Yes, even LakeShow can admit Kobe shouldn’t be #2.
    -Rose is a great offensive creator. He’s a very good scorer (not elite) and a good passer (also not elite) but his athleticism drives him to the next level.
    -I wish Rose the best because he is a great kid. But, I hope he doesn’t rely on his athleticism too much because he could wind up being the next Gilbert Arenas. A stretch, I know, but I want to see Rose push himself further.
    -Durant is way too high. Defense means something doesn’t it?
    -Maniac thinks he’s great at arguing when all he really does is dodge questions or evidence that prove him wrong. He needs a rhetoric class or something cause he’s broken almost every logical fallacy in the book.
    -Deron could be just as good of a scorer as Rose, he just hasn’t been called upon. I still give the nod to Rose only because he’s proven it over the course of a season. That said, Deron has more sheer scoring talent.
    -I’ll give commenter of the day to Allen. Great points my man. Enig is runner-up.

  • Maniac

    And SMH @ people who continually try to critique my personality. Idk who’s more polarizing: me or Kobe lol. Peace.

  • DukeFromDeep

    It sucks being in Australia. I miss all the decent debate from you guys. Are you all east coast guys? Im guessing. Anyway, Slam – what are you doing mate? This year you have gone totally mad. Kobe as top three… c’mon! What’s going on there. Dwight, Wade, Griffin- too low. Kobe, LBJ, Durant – too high. Anyway, despite being about 10 hrs ahead i’ll try and chip in when I can here, as it doesn’t look like there’s going to be much of a nba season. BRING BACK LEAGUE PASS…

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    datkid; I would say that Deron could score just as well as Rose (if not better, he’s the far smarter player of the two) if he set his mind to it and like you said concerned himself only with scoring. Between the two, Rose is better at the rim and will probably be better at drawing fouls next season when the refs start with the MVP treatment, but that is as far as it goes and these two advantages can be directly attributed to Rose being more explosive (not stronger though). Deron is a much better shooter with far more range and accuracy from all ranges, is a better FT shooter, posts up better, is a far better pick and roll player (a huge source of points for PG’s) and is overall more crafty with picking his spots for scoring (better decisions), a last point where Deron is better than Rose (and really best among all PG’s) is a thing I find many underrate; a no nonsense go-to move. Rose’s go-to move is throwing himself at the teeth of the defense, this move is a risky one when the games get tight and every possesion count. Rose will launch himself against bigger stronger defenders and shoot a contested shot and/or have to hope for the refs calling a foul, this as we have seen with Lebron for instance and Rose himself going against Lebron, becomes increasingly difficult the longer into the playoffs we get and the tighter the defenses gets. Deron’s go-to move however is one of the best dribble-to-pull-up moves in the league (especially his crossover to pull-up is top notch, if not the best dribble to pull-up move in the L right now), because of the new hand-checking rules this move becomes basically unguardable and Deron can more or less count on getting a quality shot against any single coverage in any situation down the stretch (if doubled he is more than able to find the open man). Rose has been getting better at his dribble to pull-up moves, but is still not at Deron’s level. Rose though has one other force that Deron can’t match his motor meaning that Rose is aggresive 100% of the time, really there is no other O-player that attacks so reckless attacks the other team. Sometimes this leads to stupid shots and decisions but more often than not it leads to points. I would say that Deron could score just as good or maybe even better if this was his focus, but the point would be that Deron shouldn’t have this focus as he is a much more diversified floor-leader and offensive threat than Rose, you would be making Deron a worse basketballplayer by telling him to only focus on scoring, he is at his best playing balanced between getting his team involved and getting his. Rose I believe has not reached this balance yet (if he will, it is still to early to say whether he will be more Iverson than Isaiah), so he is still at his best at all out attack-mode, this could change as he matures. When it comes to Paul I think Paul has one disadvantage to both Deron and Rose, he is simply too small and this means he will not continously be able to create enough space to score that many points, one game or a week or even a month yes, but not a whole season or playoffs. although he has all the tricks and in my book is the best PG and player of the 3(if Deron gets back to 100% I am back in his corner, but right nor after what Paul did against LAL I am with him).

  • Joblo

    Anyone who thinks wade is a better scorer than rose is not very intelligent. They are comparable in many ways – both are streaky 3 pt shooters, both are terrific slashers and finishers at the rim, both are explosive on the break, both have solid jumpshots. The only real edge for dwade is on defense and that is what makes him a better player, not his offense.

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Joblo: Except Wade has led the league in scoring. And Wade averaged more points per game with fewer attempts and a higher field goal percentage last year. And averaged less than 24 points per game only once in his career. And finishes better. And gets to the line more often.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Airs; to answer you regarding Dirk. I have personally found him underrated ever since he took Dallas to the Finals the first time. Some years he should have maybe been top 5 others not, depending on how other guys were performing. But underrated he was for sure, what changes people’s perspective is that he is now a winner, and more than that the way he wiped the floor with all the ‘soft’ and ‘not clutch’ labels people had pinned on him. Dirk right now cannot be debated, he is among the very top dogs no doubt, saying differently is biased and not objective, this should be obvious to everybody with just a bit of understanding about basketball. Before this seasons playoffs’ performance by Dirk, no matter how good he was people would always say ‘he’s soft, he folds under pressure etc etc’ and this would be the big asterisk next to him (much like it is to Lebron right now) when ranking his game. This period is now over and therefore people probably (even the many haters and the almost reverse-racists, face it Americans don’t like a huge German sticking it to them in what they consider their sport) starts to value Dirk, Americans loves winners and Dirk now is one where some month ago he was the ‘soft Euro punk who would fold under the slightest pressure’. Therefor he gets the praise from tons of people who used to not rate him. Although I still feel many people are still underrating him, seriously what are the arguments for putting Rose, Durant and Kobe over Dirk now? (read my 9:12 post the part of Dirk vs. Rose, most of the same arguments can be used regarding Durant and Kobe).

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Wades a better scorer. It’s why he has not averaged less then 24 points since his rookie year, it’s why he has never shot under 46% from the field (Rose 44%), it’s why he has only shot more then 19.7 (Rose’s shot attempts per game) shots per game once, The year he averaged 30 and led the league in scoring. All relevant stats, all say Wade is better. Can Rose be a better scorer? Yeah he could, but I doubt it. He is a PG anyway, his playmaking ability is far more important.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    My bad caboose, your comment hadnt posted when I started that.

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Haha pretty funny that we posted the same stuff. No worries bud.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    datkid; I just saw that your question was about Deron/Cp3 against Wade. Hahaha I read it as Rose. Must be a sign that it is time to get some shut-eye. Will have to give my opinions on them vs. Wade as a scorer some other time. Peace fellas.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    I cant believe we use the same evidence but i guess As long as you know basketball……

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    You and I tend to have the same viewpoints on most basketball stuff. We had the same top 5 for players so I guess it figures we’d point to the same evidence.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Yeah that’s true – you hoop a lot? If you don’t mind me askin

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    I did up until freshman year of high school, but I wrecked my back playing ball. Docs say I can’t ever play a full game again (I’ve played blacktop games but can’t go full contact) so it’s why I devote my time to the NBA; I can’t walk away from the game I love.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Sh*t that sucks man, I feel you that you can’t really give it up though. You seem to have a good feel for the game that’s why I was asking you how often you hoop(ed).

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Apparently Rose is all hype, here I am thinking he’s a better scorer than williams, only to find out I was sadly mistaken. It seems if williams shoot four more shots, he would match Rose total easily. Just because williams is a better shooter does not mean he can be a better scorer. First of all, he is not a great shooter, he is good, and he is good at many things he does, but the only thing he is great at is his dribble. Rose is a great driver, and finisher for his size, he also has great athleticism. Rose has an array of moves around the basket as well.

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Yeah man, I was never the best athlete. I had to know the game to be any good at all. Thanks for the kind words though, I assume you play a lot too.

  • DukeFromDeep

    @nbk and @Caboose… aw shucks, you two… how sweet!

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Yeah quite a bit

  • http://slamonline.com Mars

    Over Dwyane Tyrone Wade Jr.??? This is madness. Apparently loyalty is frowned upon on this establishment! SLAM, are we taking side bets?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    lol @mars

  • MUBWAR

    So then Kobe at 3 KD at 2 and bron bron are the remaining top dogs?

  • Joblo

    Rose could score more if he wanted to and I believe he will. Last season he did all he could to get his teammates involved, but lets not forget hes still figuring this game out. Everyone doubts him every year and he gets better and better. Dwyane is my guy but we’ve seen him max out his potential and hes damn good. We haven’t seen the best of rose yet but hes already in the mix. You add a shooting gaurd who can actually score on the bulls and lookout cuz rose will get much better looks rather than having to create his own shot all the time.

  • MUBWAR

    can a top 5 of Lebron KD Kobe Rose and Wade beat the next 5 in Paul Williams Melo Dirk and Howard in a game of basketball?

  • Josh

    Seeing as how this is based on production, I can understand these rankings. Everything was given a specific argument to why they think that person will be outdone by the person ranked ahead of them. Rose therefore is ahead of Wade because Lebron will flex his muscle in Miami while Chi-town will still rely heavily on Rose to put up numbers. That means Rose will have a better statistical season then Wade. It’s like y’all can’t read or something.. this is based on production for this coming season.
    That being said, everyone hating on Durant should go look at some stats from last year (KD leading scorer anyone?) and realize that Durant is entirely deserving of top three, and in this guy’s opinion, numero uno. That’s coming from someone who is “on Kobe’s nuts” as some ignorant Slam enthusiasts have put it.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I am sorry I missed LA. Made the exact points I would have made about Deron as a scorer only more eloquently. Thx homie.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Lz

  • MikeC.

    Just got home from the longest work-day on record, watching Knicks-Bulls 93 ECF Game 4 on NBATVCanada. John Starks is doing his “puffed up rooster” prance. So, what’s been up on this thread today? From my skimming, I gather that people don’t like Rose being ranked over Wade, even though the rankings are projected performance for next season and Rose’s game is on the rise while Wade’s is due for a decline based on Lebron’s continued rise and Wade’s aging. I also gather that Maniac may have worn out his warm welcome from yesterday. Also, Charles Oakley just whacked Ho Grant in a way that would lead to a 700 game suspension under today’s rules. No-call in 93.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Why do you think Wade is going to decline? He’s not “old” he’s 29 or 30. And why doesn’t anyone think the Heat will be more comfortable with one another, and thus better as individuals? That’s how I feel it is going to shake out. And I see Rose upping his production, but idk about his efficiency. I think how Indiana and Miami guarded the Bulls is going to have an effect from a scouting standpoint preparing teams to atleast understand how to make Rose truly uncomfortable. which also plays into my idea that if Rose does make a step into my “top 5″ it will only be at the very end of the season/playoffs. At whatever point he understands how to swing games defensively, and/or make his teammates better offensively in a comparable fashion to Rondo-Nash-Williams-Paul.

  • MikeC.

    @Caboose – what did you do to your back? I’m in the same boat. Going up for a rebound, some turd jumped on my back while I was on the way up. Been having disc problems since. Pre-back injury, I could get up around the rim (and when the moons and stars aligned, throw it down). I’m 5’9″, so getting up around the rim was pretty cool when I was 15. Post-back injury, I can’t even touch the backboard. I went from feeling like Rex Chapman to feeling like Chris Mullin. Except I didn’t have Mully’s game. It took about 5 years to reinvent my game. I ended up trying to pattern my game after Larry Johnson. High flier early on, post grinder and solid shooter later on. I also watched a lot of old Kevin McHale and Charles Oakley moves. Neither of those guys could run or jump and were still great players. I’m 33 nowadays, starting to get that older guy fat and wondering what I’m gonna do to stay in shape now that it hurts to run and jump. I can’t swim, I hate riding a bike and lifting weights was never my thing.

  • MUBWAR

    apparently Wade aged overnight n became 35 nbk

  • MikeC.

    @nbk – I just think Wade is due for that inevitable decline that hits players that smash their bodies up when they’re younger. Call it the Iverson-slide. Wade isn’t going to age gracefully like Reggie or Shuttlesworth. He doesn’t have that skill-set that ages well. I also have a feeling that Lebron is going to go all “eff you effers” and put on a show, which will force Wade to be more of a facilitator than a finisher. I don’t have anything to back it up other than a feeling of what may happen next season. Lebron doesn’t know how to be anything other than the main guy who dominates the ball. If he doesn’t go full-on Magic Johnson-meets-Scottie Pippen and turn himself into the greatest 2nd guy ever, he’s going to be a wrecking ball and Wade will have to ride shotgun.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    If LeBron goes any part Magic Johson I think it’s only logical to assume Wade will benefit more then everyone not named Chris Bosh.

  • MikeC.

    That’s my caveat. If Lebron goes Magic on O, then Wade’s production will jump. My money is on Lebron’s ego not allowing that to happen.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Damn, MikeC. is in a bit of a pickle.
    Take this from someone who has had his share of injuries playing ball, you might wanna find a training partner or a Physio (if affordable).
    After i tore my Achilles at 34, i thought my leaping days were over. 3 months with a highly recommended sports PT later, i was in the best shape of my life. Mix of stretching, weight training and jogging got me back to the point i can dunk again. Lost some lateral explosiveness but retained my vertical and more balance so my jumper splashes through like nothing. 3rd best scorer on my team at the moment and i play with a bunch of 20 somethings who rely mostly on their athleticism to ball.
    You seem dedicated (the whole game re-invention part) so get someone to work out with you for the added motivation.
    Worked wonders for me.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    O alright lol misunderstanding there. Idk I just think if Miami doesn’t do something about the PG position LeBron gonna be forced to be a facilitator even more – make Mario Chalmers and a healthy Mike Miller corner 3pt statues. If Spoelstra does anything productive with that offense that’s PART of the answer.

  • MikeC.

    @Dark – I play in an old guy pickup league. When my back cooperates, I can still play at a decent level. I can usually “out-athlete” the older dudes and out-think the young cats. Young cats have no idea how to defend a 5’9″ guy in the post. I’ve always had very strong legs so I can get and hold whatever position I want. I also have the Melo backyard. I can put just about anybody on my back and seal them there. Even when I could get up to the rim, it wasn’t on some pretty float through the air stuff like MJ and Clyde. It was smash through the air like Barkley. No grace, just blast. I’ve been working a lot lately, and when I sit for too long, I have disc problems and the pain just won’t stop. When I’m not doing administrative crap, my back is fine. Admin work is killing me.

  • MikeC.

    If Miami addresses their PG and C situations, they’re going to be dangerous. However, you can say that about any team that doesn’t employ Rondo, Rose, CP3, D-Will, Westbrook, Nash and Dwight Howard. If NY addresses their PG and C situations, they’re going to be dangerous as well.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Well i guess you have to combine tools (sitting aids for work for ex.) with some workouts to try and mend that back.
    I am in no way an expert but i can slightly relate, seeing as i was an athletic freak just a few years ago on the court then injuries started piling up and the psychological toll of having to come back from each one, sometimes not fully healed, robbed me of my confidence.
    At our respective ages, MikeC., flexibility cannot be taken for granted.
    My PT got me to really buy into his stretching/lifting/cardio routine in 2010, that i’ve felt great since. For me, it was all about finding the time after work or on weekends AND going there to do the work.
    Once i start working out, i can go forever, getting there was always the hard part.

  • MikeC.

    Damn Dark. Achilles tear at 34. Yowch! I had a partial Achilles tear when I was 17. In a walking cast for 3 weeks, crutches/cane for another couple weeks. Luckily my foot healed up fine. That was the only time I followed the doctor’s orders and didn’t ball until I was told I could. I damn near cut my left index finger off when I was in 10th grade and I was balling with 47 stitches and a finger cast. Nothing helps your righty scoop shot like having 47 stitches in your left hand.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    The heat are already dangerous. I meant address as in replace Mike Bibby from the PG rotation for someone with a pulse, or even the ability to initiate an offense and play decent defense. If they literally address the issue with someone good like a guy for the future, idk how they don’t win the title if they are healthy.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Love “the Melo backyard” term btw.
    Guessing it’s the same as the “Barkley bufferzone”?

  • MikeC.

    Yeah, getting into the routine has always been my downfall. I just need to get off my slightly doughy arse and get to the Y. In the last two years, my body has gone from 1994 Anthony Mason to 1994 Oliver Miller.

  • MikeC.

    My love of premium European beer is certainly not helping matters.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Ahh, you see, never been much of a beer fan (though i enjoy me some ERDINGER WEISSBIER once in a while) so i got you beat there, man.
    It’s the fried food and soft drinks that are my bane.

  • MikeC.

    Heat’s PG problem, as I see it, is that the guys they can realistically get don’t fit what they need. They can pretty easily go out and get a guy like Telfair, but he can’t shoot for ish, so he’s not a good fit. They already have guys that can dribble the ball up the court and start the offense. They need a PG that can do that, as well as hit from deep to stretch the D. Where or where have the BJ Armstrongs gone?

  • MikeC.

    *Where oh where*

  • MikeC.

    Zywiec and Tyskie are amazing. They’re Polish brews. I lived in Poland for a year after university. I didn’t know what I was going to do with my useless bachelor of arts degrees, so I decided to teach English. Great experience. Poland is an amazing country with gorgeous women. On one hand, I wish I hadn’t gone with my girlfriend, but on the other hand, I ended up marrying her. I’d have plowed so much Polish ace had I gone as a single man, but I wouldn’t be married now, so…. I played some pretty fun ball when I was there too. Typical of the European stereotypes. Very solid passing, shooting, dribbling used to get to a spot and nothing more. Nobody there liked being bodies up on D, and they hated the Johnny Stock elbows-out back screens.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    As a Mavs fan, i can’t state how glad i was that Mike Miller was battling what at times seemed to be 12 injuries at once last season.
    If that guy had healed and found enough rhythm to garner more minutes as the playoffs progressed, he would have been the nail to Dallas defensive rotation. The minute Chandler hedged on the 2-4 or 3-5 pick & roll, that ball would have swung to him for open shots.
    Still maintain that Memphis would have given Dallas fits had they met in the WCF. Just a gut feeling after watching all of the Grizzlies playoff games.

  • MikeC.

    Grizz would have been a problem. I think they might have ’07 Warrior’d the Mavs. Z-Bo would have been too much to handle on the block. Dirk would have had to either guard Z-Bo (yeah right) or keep Gasol off the glass.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    BJ Armstrong is exactly what I was gonna say. JJ Barea is the only FA PG I can think of that would be able to fill a 25/30 minute role in Miami. I just don’t know about his shooting ability as a spot up shooter, and what kind of crazy contracts he’ll get offered after winning a ring. He might get something that isn’t even worth sign and trading for.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Both very tough options, i agree. BUT Dirk, in single coverage mostly, also kept Pau (yeah, yeah the chick problem, yada, yada) from going off in round two.
    But he matches up ok with the Gasols, Zach would have made life hell for him, probably would have been Chandler’s cover cause of his length and speed. Zach would have had him in foul trouble by the 3rd quarter though.
    Oh well, shoulda, woulda, coulda…

  • MikeC.

    If the Grizz really wanted to be a problem for the Mavs, they woulda beat the Thunder.

  • blakos

    Mike C. You might want to do something about that back man. I suggest yoga ASAP, or perhaps some form of core training. You dont want to go down the ciadica road….

  • MikeC.

    NBA’s Greatest Games is frustrating. 93 ECF. Goddamn you Charles Smith!!!

  • MikeC.

    @blakos – between my work’s medical plan and my wife’s coverage, I get $1500/year in chiropractic coverage. I’m in a low point right now. Hurt it a couple weeks ago moving a table and it hasn’t gotten better. Dr. Dan will get me back on track. I’m just in the dumps right now because my pickup league starts tomorrow night and I don’t think I’ll be able to play. Which puts me in the tryout pool with the rest of the turds that didn’t get to play last year. By the time I get my back healthy enough to play, I’ll be behind the curve. Once I get rolling and get my legs in game shape, I’ll be aight. Just feeling ishty right now.

  • MikeC.

    Aight peops. I’m out. 13 hour work day rocked my mind machine. It’s been fun y’all. Catch up tomorrow on the Kobe #3 thread.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    To Dark you joining our online league on PS3!

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Lol stupid phone.
    I meant “Yo Dark you joining?”
    Didn’t meant to yell lol

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Dang Mike, that’s rough man. I dove for a ball and an uncoordinated fat kid stepped right on my lower back. Severe herniated disc (that surgery can’t fix) and no more ball. Well, scratch that, I took two weeks off, then went to practice, closed out on a guy, and that was it. Back locked up, couldn’t walk for a bit, and then the career was over. Sorry for rambling on a sob story, guys.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    yo i’m confused darksaber I thought you were a young guy?

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    also sorry to hear about your injuries, caboose, mike and darksaber

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    datkid – are you confusing DarkSaber with BlackPhantom maybe?

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    It’s ok datkid, all war wounds from the game we love. No problem sacrificing for our art, right guys?

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    No worries, datkid, they’re all just war wounds from the game we love. No problem with that, right guys?

  • Drig

    First of all, let me say one thing : I’m a huge huge Kobe fan. Always have been. There. So, if you guys think I’m biased, point it out and I’ll check it out.

    Kobe vs Wade: Kobe’s older. Yeah. Wade had a great season and will finally jell with LeBron. Yeah. But you guys are underestimating/misunderstanding a few things IMO :

    1.Kobe, as publicised, has become 33. But he hasn’t had a break for 3 years straight with his creaking body. Phil himself said after 2nd title that he was shocked Kobe was still in one piece till the end of the run. Most guys are hence saying that Kobe’ll save himself only for the POs. Wrong. If a banged up guy playing for 3 years straight (something NO other player has done the last 3 years) after a few knee surgeries and gets bogged down by serious injuries can manage to produce like this while pacing himself ( Kobe and Phil both told it ), why is it too hard to imagine Kobe being a bit better next season? After an extended rest and a surgery which seems to have got him some of his old hops back??!

    2. Wade vs Kobe stats : Points : Push
    Assists : Kobe
    Rebounds : Push
    Blocks : Wade
    So far, so good. Now let’s go to the main sticking point : FG%

    First of all, Kobe and Wade play in different systems. I’ll be the first to admit I haven’t watched too many of the Heat’s games. So, I’ll just stick to my defense of Kobe and hope that some of you help me out with Wade.

    Kobe takes a LOT more jumpers than Wade does not just because Kobe’s lost athleticism and can’t drive like he used to ( he doesn’t need to but his fckked up hands don’t help matters much here :P ) but more so because the paint is clogged with Pau and Bynum. Kobe can’t do what he does best (Post-up) like Wade does what he does best (driving). If y’all think I’m kidding, just check last year’s stats when Kobe’s stats were MJ-esque on an MJ-esque oriented offense ( Enough lack of paint presence for Kobe to work on the post like MJ used to regularly do on the Bulls ). In order for him to accomodate Pau’s and Bynum’s skillset, he needs to shoot more from the perimeter and I’m pretty sure he takes 3-4 more jumpers. Also, Kobe’s FG% is a bit flawed. If you watch Laker games, you’ll see Kobe was stuck with the ball last season a lot in the dying seconds when a play for Pau failed when Pau couldn’t get a good position. He’s either left to shoot the ball and hope it falls or not shoot at all and save his FG% or pass the ball and hope to rack an assist ( that has as much probability as Thunder going back to Seattle. ). Kobe’s had 2 such shots atleast per game almost every game of the season. Just check out the games too folks.

    3. If what Mike Brown means to say and what I think he means by the new O is true, LA’s game will cement the inside-out spirit even more in the new O. And assuming LA can run the offense without too many hitches, I fail to see how Kobe won’t get more open looks ( Bynum/Pau feeds or screen rolls ), get more lift on his shots ( last season’s shots lacked some jump and the new surgery seems to be working well ), drive more to the basket ( since his knees/fingers/back/other body parts will have recovered a lot so that even he can go “me-against-the-world” in the paint like DWade does in a limited fashion ).

    Now, as I stated earlier, I haven’t watched a lot of Heat’s games as I didn’t have enough time. So, any info there would be cool.

    On a side note : One thing I do hope is that Bynum/Pau can extend his range so that Kobe can get more opportunities in the post. The guy flat out kills from there and if anyone disagrees with me, go watch 2010 start. Still disagrees? Pass the pipe. :P

  • Drig

    Caboose, still there?

  • Drig

    For the record, I had : LBJ #1, Dwight #2, Wade #3, Kobe #4, CP3 #5, Durant/Rose #5 and #6……..

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Kobe’s shooting % was .03% lower then his career average last season. Wade was flat out better then Kobe can be without getting to the free throw line or upping his 3pt% an unheard of 6ish% to 39-40%. That’s the only conceivable way Kobe performs as efficiently as Wade. When you ask about the Miami offense what are you wondering? What kind of shots wade gets? I think you can go to hoopdata.com and check exactly if it is still like that. If you get on tomorrow ask and I’ll give you good info. If you mean what offense do they run? It’s pick & roll/pop focused with a baseline cutter when Wade is off the ball. When it’s LeBron he either stands there while wade goes Iso or they set a back screen. Either way Wade is ultra aggressive about getting to the rim. I don’t think it matter what offense he’s apart of or who his teammates are he basically has played the same exact brand of basketball his whole career. He takes too many 3′s imo, but not enough to make up for Kobe’s love of the hardest shots he can think of that kill his efficiency.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    datkid: young at heart, mayne :-)

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    To the IllMatic himself: gotta buy the game AND (more pressing) remember my PS-Network login details cause i have not used them in ages.

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Drig, sounds like solid arguments. Your top 5 is the same as mine with Kobe/CP switched. I mean, I’d have no problem putting Kobe at 4 though. It’s interesting that you bring up the fact that Kobe loses some chances posting up because of Pau/Bynum. I think that’s true to an extent, but if he really wanted to post up say, Monta Ellis, he could get his team to clear out. That said, I think that lack of post opportunity (while small but not unheard of) should factor in to his productivity for next season. Since this list is next year’s projections and not overall skill or talent, Kobe should be dinged for missing the post. Thus, 4 or 5 would be a good spot. Not 2 or 3.

  • Drig

    Yo, nbk. Thanks for hoopdata site : If you look closely, Kobe’s BETTER than Wade at shooting from EVERYWHERE except a bit less at the rim ( 1%). EVERYWHERE. But Wade at his most effective enables the team to be at its most effective. But Kobe at his most effective ( post up. 10-15 ft. He’s a beauty.)doesn’t help the team which has two post threats but zero perimter O. ( Ronny and Fish are NOT perimeter O despite what anyone thinks! I stand by this after being frustrated to no end courtesy of those two last season! )

    A long story short : Kobe can’t use his post-up game as much as Wade can use his driving game. Just calculate the FG% if you think otherwise by granting them a set number of shots from their strongest and weakest positions. Kobe’ll come out on top no sweat. Sadly, with this team, I believe Kobe’s being limited rather than being encouraged to unleash his full potential :( . Any thoughts about this?

    BTW, Kobe’s BY FAR the better shooter. BY FAR. Even when he takes more shots from the perimeter than Wade, he’s still got the better % when you split FGA into distances from the rim. And Kobe did this on a bum knee!

    @nbk – Granted Kobe takes a ton of tough shots but would you rather have Kobe take a pull-up J with a man in his grill rather than a less-contested shot by Fish or Ronny from the perimeter? I’m all ears if you opt for the latter. If you’d rather Kobe pass the ball to Pau/Bynum to convert, I’d bet my entire life that they’re FG% will plummet.

    It’s esp. for this reason that I really hope LA gets a good traditional point who can create spacing for Kobe to get off his shots. Fish is good in the clutch but over 82 games, I’d rather have a rook who can create off the dribble and break D off of penetration.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    I would like Kobe to create a higher % shot for himself. That’s why Wade and LeBron have always shot a higher % then Bryant, they create better shots for themselves. And thus the difference between their shooting %. I gotta go too sleep I’m out though, comeback tomorrow during the day, it’s Kobe day tomorrow more than likely.

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Can’t wait for tomorrow. Hopefully we won’t get insane LakeShow or emotional Maniac or random Fakers fans. Hopefully. If Durant is 3, we might crack 1000 comments.

  • Snal

    I’m Drig but my comments aren’t showing up so I’ll post here for the time being :

    1. NBK – Kobe not only needs to do that in such a way that it doesn’t make it easy to double but also in a way to ensure spacing. Easier than how Wade/LBJ has it. Also, there are a lot more intricacies involved so I’ll get into those details at a later time.

    2. Caboose – Thanks. Was worried there for a second. :D And lack of post opportunities isn’t a small issue. Kobe converts those shots ( 10-16ft ) at 50%. Wade at 38%. Just think how much the FG% skews into Kobe’s favor if he had just 2-3 more post opportunities?

    3. If Mike B DID actually take in Kobe’s input for the new O, I believe Kobe will get a lot more post shots.

  • Armando

    Ok, so they are projected rankings, which means the projections have to be based on something concrete, right? And if so, it has to be how they performed most recently (relevant cometition that is, so no KD avg. 50 in glorified pick up games)… thus, post ASG performance to a certain degree and most importantly, playoff performance… I really don’t have a problem with places 1-8 here as those spots are close, but placing KD, Kobe, LeBron and Rose over Wade, Howard, Dirk, Paul could certainly be discussed… Just throwing it out, but how about:

    1. Dirk (he just got better, why will he get worse?)
    2. Wade
    3. Howard (Magic sans DH is worse than the Wolves)
    4. Rose
    5. Durant
    6. Bryant
    7. James
    8. Paul

  • http://slamonline.com everything

    who thinks joe johnson is better than tyreke evans? i don’t. i think tyreke will be on the conversation of top SGs in the league soon enough.

  • Jono

    DRose was (is?) the MVP only because of last season’s freakshow. LeBron and Wade were the victims of immense hatred that effectively meant that they had no shot of winning the award. Kobe had a weird year where despite his stats being great as usual, slumpped badly at certain points in the reason. For some reason, the Durant was completely over looked despite having better stats, 55-win season and withstanding a signifcant mid-season trade. Maybe the media were too caught-up in by his humblee-ness or whatever. This guy is a top 10 player, but top 5?! If he was in the top 3, I’ll….never mind. Overrated like no other, period.

  • dan

    well… a point guard in the top 5 who cant pass properly out of a drive? or bad decision making when it counted the most? (how many times did he drive against two or more defenders for bad shots instead of passing to the open man?) i think the bulls winning record has more to do with his coachs defensive system. hes a great player though but nothing near the top 5. in this point slam just joined the hype. and yes, durant wouldve been a better choice for the mvp. or, even though i hate em, james or wade.

  • Elliot

    wow…slam you really gonna put KD and Kobe as the top 3??!! This is ment to be on how good are they now, not their legacy, not in 5 years time, its about right now!
    Im sorry was I the only one that saw how the lakers were pretty average all season and tehn when they got to the playoffs managed to crash and burn in spectacular style?? I aint no Kobe hater but this was honesty a terrible season on the back of a back to back championship runs.
    Now for KD, your telling me that wade, nowitzki, howard are worse than this guy?! Yes I get it he is young and he’s still got loads of potential etc. but we are talking right now! He aint a leader, thats shared between him and Westbrook. Main reason he is rated so high is because he is the scoring champ…since when was best record in NBA and MVP worth less than the best scoring record. My question is KD, wheres the D? its too average to call yourself a top 3 player

  • Jono

    I know I just put up a post less than an hour ago but still fuming over DRose being a top 5 selection. For fu(k sake, this isn’t Glee! The NBA dosen’t have to embrace everyone or pick the most popular kid, it’s about the best players. And DRose is not a top 5 player in the world right now. If I had to pick a player to lead my team for the 11-12 season, I can think of at least 5 players ahead of Rose. Guys like LeBron, Dirk, Kobe, CP3 and KD. That’s even leaving out Melo and Wade. This is such a ridiculous choice, as bad as the Kevin Love one.

  • Jono

    And I realized I left out Howard too. WTF is Rose doing up here.

  • Elliot

    @jono
    Rose and the Bulls had the best record in the NBA, you cant put the Thunder’s 55win as a highlight to say Rose is bad. Also that mid-season trade helped the Thunder so much so you cant argue that it hurt KD in anyway possible. Im not a hater if thats what you think (cos whenever anyone talks bad about a player thats what they are branded as), I jus think that KD is being overated here making him a top 3 player, top 5 for sure but not 3. Tell me what makes him so spectacular that he deserves this spot (or mvp which some people say)apart from the amazing scoring, because if thats the case why isnt Anthony or heck even Monta Ellis in this top 3???

  • BBaller

    514!

  • Jono

    @Elliot
    I’m with you in that KD can rank anywhere between 3-6. He’s the superstar on a young and winning team and that will undoubtedly push his rankings up. Not to add in the fact that his the younger scoring champ and whatnot. Fact is he’s the best scorer in the game stats wise and plays for a darkhorse/contender. My main issue here is that DRose (seeing that this is the DRose article) does not deserve to be in the top 5. Durant should be higher than Rose regardless and in that sense, it’s fair that if Rose is 4, then Durant is in the top 3. Rose had a miraculous season that’s seen him peaked way too early. He was very fortunate and lots of events fel his way to concede the fact that he’s just an all-star player, not one who is derserving of the absurdly-awesome title of youngest ever MVP.

  • Feez22

    Time to put my 2 cents in yet again… I think rose should be ranked over paul this year because paul didn’t have a great season last year. I think paul is the better player but lets not be ignorant to what paul couldn’t do in the 2nd half of games last season… now that i got that summary out of the way i believe the blatant disrespect defensive capability has on this list is pretty lewd considering this is a “basketball” list. even ESPN of all damn places put defense into their perspective on the top players. Derrick rose is truly just above average in offense and thats because he is a volume shooter. His drive and kick passing is alright, jumper has improved but his 3pt jumper is not off the wall. I think rose should have been ranked at 4 but man… I still think dwight should be ranked as a top 3 player because of his impact defensively. Rose’s defense is horrible. Sorry it just is. He can’t stay in front of his defender and is the beneficiary of the team defense played around him. His defensive potential imo is HUGE but if you compare rose’s defense to westbrook’s it isn’t even a comparison. Rose should be much farther along defensively. His offense needs efficiency which will come. Other than his volume shooting it is his defense that has really disappointed me as a fan. Regardless, i think #4 is a great place for him to be. Now… kobe has made the top 3 which is laughable to me. Kobe might take the #1 ranking in this which would take all validity from this list. We’ll see. AGAIN… for dwight to lead his defense to top 3 in the league with the amount of inept wing defenders they had was unreal to me. they have literally no wing defensive stopper yet they were #3 in defense last year. thats dwight’s effect. Thats why dwight should be top 3 here.

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    Q: what should I get when I need to use inversion, and the word that I need to start my sentence with is “rarely”, and the sentence is “A politician seldom speaks that honestly”.
    ?

  • http://www.slamonline.com UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER

    HEY LOOK, AN EXTENSIVE DISCUSSION ABOUT ROSE,PAUL,WILLIAMS AND WHO IS THE BEST PG/PLAYER. THATS NEW! SO SAD I MISSED IT. DERON IS THE BEST PG AND PLAYER OUT OF ANY PG ON THE PLANET.

  • marc

    Kobe is my favorite player but like i said i would cry of so much laughter if kobe is number 1. But what if kobe isn’t even on the list?

  • Snal

    ^^^

    If that doesn’t get over 2k posts, I don’t know what will.
    LOL.

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    it isn’t that far fetched, KD at 3, LBJ at 2, BS at 1?

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGFqAJAvc1A
    The assist to bayless was just the greatest play i’ve ever seen.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    These rankings are mental masturbation…so futile.

  • http://redoftoothandclaw.ca/ niQ

    @Max, by BS I hope you mean Brian Scalabrine.

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    I do, who else? Brian Skinner? :)

  • http://redoftoothandclaw.ca/ niQ

    In that case, you may be right! Prepare for top 50 sans Kobe Bryant! And the end of the world! Lol

  • Jono

    Scalabrine for the win! back in 08, he stepped up to the conference table after the Celtics won the chip and literally no one asked him a question. Funniest moment ever!

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    @Jono –
    regarding your 5:08 comment, I don’t know why it became popular to blame “the evil media’s hatred of LeBron James and Dwyane Wade” on Derrick Rose winning the MVP.
    I’ve discussed this plenty of times but guess I’ll do it again.
    LeBron James and Dwyane Wade are both better players, in my opinion, but the MVP award doesn’t always go to the best player.
    Now, Derrick Rose was the best player on the best team (record-wise) last year.
    But again, the MVP doesn’t always go to the best player on the team with the best record.
    So what’s to blame for this “freakshow”, as you inexplicably put it?
    Well, for me, I don’t see why James and Wade would deserve it over Rose when they couldn’t beat the boy from Chi-town, Wade in 3 tries and Bron in 2.
    Look at the Bulls’ record against playoff teams and especially elite teams.
    Swept the Mavs, swept the Heat, 2-1 against the Celtics and Magic, 1-1 against the Lakers, Thunder, Grizzlies and Spurs.
    They never lost three games in a row.
    They didn’t lose a season series to ANY team last year.
    The Heat can’t make any of those claims.
    But you go ahead and keep thinking Rose getting the MVP award was simply the media manipulating the system because of their “intense hatred” for LeBron and Dwyane.
    I’d say your 5:52 am comment probably proves that you just suffer from a case of “intense hatred” for Derrick Rose.

  • http://slam blinda

    D Rose had a better season then Wade and CP3 so how are they better. What has CP3 done lately that Rose hasn’t. Say what you want, but Rose was better at 22 then both Wade and CP3 and will be better moving forward as he continues to climb up the ranks. For all the non Bulls fans that say he sucks at defense, he is not a rookie anymore, he started to play defense. His body broke down by the end of the season, so his defense was not the best in the playoffs. At least the Bulls made it to the Eastern Conference Finals after being the 8th seed the previous 2 years. Rose haters need to quit hating and give him some props. He could have been in college last year, instead he in torching your teams, breaking ankles, and making Lebron and Bosh cry in the locker room like the babies they are.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    @blinda – well, Wade was a rookie at 22, but are you sure Rose’s 25, 7, 4 and 1 steal per was better than Chris Paul’s 21, 11, 4 and 2.7 steals per at age 22?

  • http://slam blinda

    Enigmatic watching basketball you know stats don’t mean the entire story. It’s all about making your teammates better and the total in the wins column. Yes CP3 deserved to win the MVP that year but he did not win 62 games and take his team as far in the playoffs. CP3 is a baller there’s no denying that. He may be the best at making his teammates better in the entire league. But if the Bulls teammates could consistantly hit shots and Rose wasn’t getting double and triple teammed every play, how good would he look then. No player scored more points in the league with the game on the line then Rose in the 4th.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Haha, someone said Derrick is a above average player on offense, lol, I truly have heard it all. Jason richardson is an above average player on offense but what do I know? They soon will realize they are so mistaken.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    The most disappointing thing about this thread was that Nash’s name only came 1-2 times…

    :|

  • http://www.slamonline.com UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER

    BLINDA, HOW EXACTLY DID ROSE MAKE BOSH AND LEBRON CRY? WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN?

  • http://slam blinda

    You forgot in the regular season when the Bulls beat the Heat in Miami. The Heat kept losing close games. D Rose single handedled torched Miami. Lebron was whining like a baby on the bench, yelling at his teammates. The coach Spolstra put his team on blast. Spolstra said his players were crying in the locker room after the game. Thinking it would make his team look like they cared. In reality it showed Bosh Spice and Baby Lebron’s true colors. All the nba analysts said they thought Bosh Spice was the crybaby. But Dan Lebatard thought it was the frozen one who was emotional after the game. Lebron might be the best in the league, but I would take Kobe in the playoffs anytime over Lebron.

  • quicklikeaf0x

    Why is Rose rated so highly when say him and westbrook have very similar games however westbrook just seems to be “overrated”. I’ll take the guy who can do all of the same things as Rose but actually plays D none of this he’s not that bad… with Westbrook you actually get real D. I see so many comments like “Rose will only get better and better..” well Westbrook will too

  • http://Bulls.com HarryTwatter

    Why is Rose not above KD?? Rose played at a crazy high level last year night in and night out. I cant recall how often he wasn’t the best on the floor.

  • http://slamonline 3kings

    most overated player on the planet. hes fast and can jump high. ohhh so does every other nba player. d rose suckss. if everybody didnt miss micheal jorden so dam bad rose wouldnt even be in the top five

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  • Tom

    D Rose above all, i respect eboys opinion on this one, D. Rose should atleast be ranked #2! There are two players who separated themselves from the rest, and thats Lebron and Rose, Kobe Wade Durant are like 1b while the other two are 1a. There is just no doubt in my mind.

  • http://slam joevy ann semil

    Rose, come back , . we miss you so much .

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